The Future for the PRO14 - Part 9 - who’s next?

First topic message reminder :

South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.

Southern Kings move to private ownership:

https://www.sarugbymag.co.za/kings-conclude-r45-million-buyout-deal/

Sounds good for the Kings? Could be the next Saffacens! Now that they're private do they have the funds to bring in good players?

I have a question Dowlais. I don’t need to click your favourite paper, but I know it is from ages ago as I saw it shared on twitter a while ago. So what took you so long to post about it, seeing as you don’t mind generating clicks for them? If nothing else, Arsenal v Man Utd (in the FA Cup) was January. That’s a little while to wait to peddle your agenda, particularly when a “Welsh rugby fan” might be distracted by other matters (such as this weekend). At least I would hope so.

I don’t pretend to speak for other people (unlike some), but people might agree with your points about the Pro 14 losing support in Wales if you didn’t;

1) Suggest the Welsh Prem has more interest, with nothing to back that up. Attendances at games prove that. Most biggest crowds don’t compete with the Pro Teams’ smallest crowds.
2) Ignore that people who want everything for free don’t offer anything to the Welsh game anyway.
3) Try to make some point two months late.

Have you heard the rumours about the Six Nations going to subscription? Will you post then about lack of interest in Wales?

TV money talks. Time for people to move with the times. I’m sure most people can afford £2.50 a week, if they were really so concerned about Welsh Rugby.

RiscaGame wrote:Have you heard the rumours about the Six Nations going to subscription? Will you post then about lack of interest in Wales?

That will never happen in Wales, it is protected by Westminster.

RiscaGame wrote:1) Suggest the Welsh Prem has more interest, with nothing to back that up. Attendances at games prove that. Most biggest crowds don’t compete with the Pro Teams’ smallest crowds.

I never said a game by game ratio.

I have always said, that I would wager that more people in Wales are watching the Welsh Prem as a whole, both going and on TV.

So why are you trying to twist the debate ?

Not sure the Welsh are protected are they? This was from 2015 but can't find anything later.

British sports broadcasting's "crown jewels"
Olympic Games & Paralympics The Derby
Football's World Cup Wimbledon tennis finals
FA Cup final Football's European Championship
Scottish FA Cup final (in Scotland) Rugby league's Challenge Cup final
The Grand National Rugby union's World Cup final
Source: Ofcom

It's also voluntary for the organisation's involved so they can change this.

6Ns matches featuring any home nation are in category B. This means live TV coverage can be on exclusive channels (ie not free to air), but highlights must be available for fta channels and live radio commentary must be made available.

So 6Ns rights can be sold to subscription channels, and according to Ofcom's policy document there are no exceptions for any country.

Must be tempting for it. I can imagine any big rugby fan who has currently not jumped already would if sky or bt picked up the 6ns.

From an Ulster meeting last night Petrie said

They have been told there will be 4 Welsh sides next season
On new SA teams he said if they do join it will be more like the Stormers or Bulls than weaker teams.
USA teams are not on the radar for the foreseeable future

LordDowlais wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Have you heard the rumours about the Six Nations going to subscription? Will you post then about lack of interest in Wales?

That will never happen in Wales, it is protected by Westminster.

Live coverage isn't protected

Correct - common misconception live coverage is protected in Wales

LordDowlais wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:1) Suggest the Welsh Prem has more interest, with nothing to back that up. Attendances at games prove that. Most biggest crowds don’t compete with the Pro Teams’ smallest crowds.

I never said a game by game ratio.

I have always said, that I would wager that more people in Wales are watching the Welsh Prem as a whole, both going and on TV.

So why are you trying to twist the debate ?

Serious question for you, how is 5 apparent rugby enthusiasts not knowing what conference the regions are in because of the rights going to Premier Sports?

It was just an example marty.

An example of what exactly?

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:1) Suggest the Welsh Prem has more interest, with nothing to back that up. Attendances at games prove that. Most biggest crowds don’t compete with the Pro Teams’ smallest crowds.

I never said a game by game ratio.

I have always said, that I would wager that more people in Wales are watching the Welsh Prem as a whole, both going and on TV.

So why are you trying to twist the debate ?

Serious question for you, how is 5 apparent rugby enthusiasts not knowing what conference the regions are in because of the rights going to Premier Sports?

Or if they are the standard of 5 rugby euthusiasts what hope does rugby have in Wales.  Also it must show that 95% of Welsh posters on here must have PhDs in rugby as they not only understand Pro14 conferences systems, fixture formats and where each team plays but also are able to give valuable opinions on Welsh Rugby and the workings of it.

Anecdotal evidence is pointless as if five villages have no idiot because the idiots are meeting up to discus their villages the anecdotal evidence would be pointless

This is what I found a few months ago whilst discussing this, please chose the link then click on Listed sporting events - Parliament.uk, you then need to download the PDF document.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Listed+sporting+events+-+Parliament.uk&rlz=1C1GGRV_enGB751GB751&oq=Listed+sporting+events+-+Parliament.uk&aqs=chrome..69i57.1399j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

When you have done this, you will then need to go down to page 10 and note this:-

="• Wales matches in the Six Nations Rugby Championship (in Wales only) 28

It then explains that all Wales games are protected. The only bit I am unsure of, is whether it is only in Wales, or just the games played in Wales.

Download the PDF, it's very informative and gives a more accurate picture rather than Wikipedia.

Page 6 has the current listed events
The list on Page 10 that you refer to is based on the recommendation of a review in 2008/09 by the Labour government, which starts on Page 9

The Panel recommended the following single list of protected events:

Recommendation does not mean that they are definitely protected. As proof, look higher in the list where England's home cricket Test matches are on the list - they are currently on Sky, or at the Home Nations home and away qualification football matches for the World Cup or Euros - fairly sure England away games are also on Sky

Yeah. That appears to confirm that they aren't protected. Good work LD.

When is an idiot not an idiot? Good question but I think it needs its own thread.

Reading it in further detail, on Page 3 it says

The future of the list
In its December 2015 sport strategy, the Government said that the national
governing bodies of sports and other rights holders should be left to “strike
the right balance between reaching a wide audience and using their rights
to generate as much revenue as possible”.
In a Commons debate of 11 July 2018, the Government said that it did not
plan to reopen the list of events and that the system was "delivering the
best outcomes for the viewing public"

So for clarity, the existing list which is not being reopened is

Listed events wrote:Group A: full live coverage protected
• The Olympic Games
• The FIFA World Cup Finals Tournament
• The European Football Championship Finals Tournament
• The FA Cup Final
• The Scottish FA Cup Final (in Scotland)
• The Grand National
• The Derby
• The Wimbledon Tennis Finals
• The Rugby League Challenge Cup Final
• The Rugby World Cup Final
Group B: secondary coverage protected
• Cricket Test matches played in England
• Non-Finals play in the Wimbledon Tournament
• All other matches in the Rugby World Cup Finals
• Six Nations Rugby matches involving home countries
• The Commonwealth Games
• The World Athletics Championship
• The Cricket World Cup - the final, semi-finals and matches
involving home nations' teams
• The Ryder Cup
• The Open Golf Championship

The BBC has been forced to remove a video of Welsh rugby highlights from its website after it was spotted that fake crowd noise had been added to the clips.

The round-up of highlights from the Principality Premiership at the weekend showed many of the matches taking place in front of empty stands, but each try was greeted with a roar from fans and loud applause.

marty2086 wrote:

The BBC has been forced to remove a video of Welsh rugby highlights from its website after it was spotted that fake crowd noise had been added to the clips.

The round-up of highlights from the Principality Premiership at the weekend showed many of the matches taking place in front of empty stands, but each try was greeted with a roar from fans and loud applause.

But it's all about the tv. The players know lots are watching at home and everyone loves them. Next season this hoard will be buying up all the tickets. Mark LDs words

Not like The 6-9k who actually go to real games.

I means its not like 60k are watching some Pro14 games in Wales on tv

LD due to your connections can you provided us with the following information

Premier Sports Pro14 viewing figures in Wales
SC4 Pro14 viewing figures in Wales
BBC Principality viewing figures in Wales

Average home attendance  per game for each Region v the teams from the top two divisions for all the club's in that Region.

These figures will allow you to put a stop to all the doubts who believe the Pro14 is working

Has LD’s internet gone down???

Gents,

This is at risk of becoming a hounding of a poster. Please make sure it does not overstep the mark.


LD,

The link below takes you to the official Ofcom report last updated in 2014.

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0029/35948/ofcom_code_on_sport.pdf

I don't think I've hounded him..just replied with a different (some would call it correct) interpretation of the link he posted

The problem is that we’re trying to discuss the league and he’s constantly running it down. It’s like having a website for discussing the European Union and having a Brexiteer posting and trying to cause trouble. It’s fine to have alternate views, but leave those who like the league to chat about it. No point contributing if you don’t even like the league.

I understand the concerns and I am not pointing fingers at specific people. Just some of the language and the chasing for responses could cause issues.


(PS I looked in the mirror and told myself off)

LT, I hope that the stringent rules on this forum still applies ?

I posted what I did in the hope of structured adult mature debate, but some of the messages on this debate since, even though you have asked for calm, seriously need moderation, I have had no PM's, to tell me otherwise, yet I feel the usual members are on here are doing the same again.

Nothing ever changes on here.

I have a different opinion to BamBam, Oracle, SF, No 7 & 1/2, yet their behaviour on here is accepted ?

Excuse me? What have I done?

LD, it was not your opinion that Wales 6N games are protected, you presented it as fact and provided a link as evidence 

I took the same link and explained why you were mistaken. Which bit of that is behaviour that should not be accepted?

LordDowlais wrote:LT, I hope that the stringent rules on this forum still applies ?

I posted what I did in the hope of structured adult mature debate, but some of the messages on this debate since, even though you have asked for calm, seriously need moderation, I have had no PM's, to tell me otherwise, yet I feel the usual members are on here are doing the same again.

Nothing ever changes on here.

I have a different opinion to BamBam, Oracle, SF, No 7 & 1/2, yet their behaviour on here is accepted ?

Umm, my only comment was to ask if your internet was down. That’s the exact same comment that you made to Cyril the other day after the England game, which is why I wrote it. Seems like your behaviour is the same.

LordDowlais wrote:LT, I hope that the stringent rules on this forum still applies ?

I posted what I did in the hope of structured adult mature debate, but some of the messages on this debate since, even though you have asked for calm, seriously need moderation, I have had no PM's, to tell me otherwise, yet I feel the usual members are on here are doing the same again.

Nothing ever changes on here.

I have a different opinion to BamBam, Oracle, SF, No 7 & 1/2, yet their behaviour on here is accepted ?

LD, 

People were pointing out where you had misinterpreted stuff. I felt the whole thing combined was close to but had not become mob mentality. Thing is when discussing the protected status of TV rights they were correct in their reading  of the game information presented.

As a general point if people are able to stay calm action can be taken against anyone who oversteps the mark. When people retaliate it is nigh on impossible to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Differences of opinion are fine and are the lifeblood of the forum, so long as people stay civilised. Sometimes we all need to be a little less defensive.

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:LT, I hope that the stringent rules on this forum still applies ?

I posted what I did in the hope of structured adult mature debate, but some of the messages on this debate since, even though you have asked for calm, seriously need moderation, I have had no PM's, to tell me otherwise, yet I feel the usual members are on here are doing the same again.

Nothing ever changes on here.

I have a different opinion to BamBam, Oracle, SF, No 7 & 1/2, yet their behaviour on here is accepted ?

Umm, my only comment was to ask if your internet was down. That’s the exact same comment that you made to Cyril the other day after the England game, which is why I wrote it. Seems like your behaviour is the same.

Do as I say, not as I do

Think I've come up with the solution as to how to fill the stadiums for the Welsh regions, they just need to stick a roof on their grounds. Seems it's been the wind and the rain that has been putting the fans off going to games

Just need to dress the clubs in red and call them Wales and you’ll be struggling to get a ticket to a game

LordDowlais wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:1) Suggest the Welsh Prem has more interest, with nothing to back that up. Attendances at games prove that. Most biggest crowds don’t compete with the Pro Teams’ smallest crowds.

I never said a game by game ratio.

I have always said, that I would wager that more people in Wales are watching the Welsh Prem as a whole, both going and on TV.

So why are you trying to twist the debate ?

I think that you forget that PrO'14 games are shown on S4C.

It really would be good to see actual figures of views fro Pro14 and the Welsh Premiership for all channels to answer this.

Otherwise this will go round in circles for many more times yet

http://www.s4c.cymru/top20/rm/view_top20_welsh_progs/uploadid/1333/language/eng/

More people are watching Paw Patrol than the Pro14.

LordDowlais wrote:More people are watching Paw Patrol than the Pro14.

The Pro14 highlights in a language that has less speakers than Tolkien’s Sindarin. Premier Sports has every game on catch-up as well as a weekly highlights show.

Eejit wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:More people are watching Paw Patrol than the Pro14.

The Pro14 highlights in a language that has less speakers than Tolkien’s Sindarin. Premier Sports has every game on catch-up as well as a weekly highlights show.

PrO'14 is shown live in Welsh.

Eejit wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:More people are watching Paw Patrol than the Pro14.

The Pro14 highlights in a language that has less speakers than Tolkien’s Sindarin. Premier Sports has every game on catch-up as well as a weekly highlights show.

Well they are, marty's link proves it. So more people in Wales prefer to watch Paw Patrol than the Pro14. I cannot for the life of me find the same info for the Premiership rugby on BBC Wales. I would love to find out what the veiwing figures are for that compared to Premier Sports.

LordDowlais wrote:

Eejit wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:More people are watching Paw Patrol than the Pro14.

The Pro14 highlights in a language that has less speakers than Tolkien’s Sindarin. Premier Sports has every game on catch-up as well as a weekly highlights show.

Well they are, marty's link proves it. So more people in Wales prefer to watch Paw Patrol than the Pro14. I cannot for the life of me find the same info for the Premiership rugby on BBC Wales. I would love to find out what the veiwing figures are for that compared to Premier Sports.

Here, maybe if you ask Admin Boy really nicely he'll make you, Phil and the rest of the Flower Pot Men your own little fantasy forum where you can talk about Marshall the Dalmatian, Thomas the Tank Engine and other fantasy nonsense like Welsh teams joining the English Premiership or a function Welsh Prem.

Then you can leave the rest of us to look forward to the second half of a great Pro14 season and hopefully next year (or the year after) tuning into Premier Sports to watch Pieter-Steph du Toit and Eben Etzebeth opposite Alun Wyn Jones and Adam Beard in a regular season game.

Eejit wrote:
Then you can leave the rest of us to look forward to the second half of a great Pro14 season and hopefully next year (or the year after) tuning into Premier Sports to watch Pieter-Steph du Toit and Eben Etzebeth opposite Alun Wyn Jones and Adam Beard in a regular season game.

That'd be good.

But would it make up for Zebre vs Connacht at 19:35 on a Saturday evening during the 6N?

After all, Jonny Sexton loves the PrO'14 so much that he's played in FOUR of Leinster's 17 games so far.

Four.

Four regular season games.

PhilBB wrote:After all, Jonny Sexton loves the PrO'14 so much that he's played in FOUR of Leinster's 17 games so far.

Four.

Four regular season games.

Yeah imagine players get injured... another thing exclusive to the Pro 14 (or as you so hilariously keep calling it; the PrO'14).

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

PhilBB wrote:After all, Jonny Sexton loves the PrO'14 so much that he's played in FOUR of Leinster's 17 games so far.

Four.

Four regular season games.

Yeah imagine players get injured... another thing exclusive to the Pro 14 (or as you so hilariously keep calling it; the PrO'14).

He was injured? Oh, ok.

He played 5 PrO'14 games in 17-18, but 7 European Games. He must have been lucky how those injuries fell.

Just 5 PrO'14 games in 16-17, to be fair he hit the massive 10 in 15-16

Funnily enough he played 21 Top14 games in 13/14 and 11 in 14/15.

I guess he must just get injured in Ireland.

The funny thing is that despite only playing last year's player of the year four times Leinster are still 22 points clear at the top of their conference and favourites (or maybe second favourites behind Sarries) to win the Champions Cup. Leinster are a bloody brilliant team and so clearly the Pro14 is doing something right.

And despite all that I expect my team to beat Leinster every day of the week and twice on Sunday because such is the nature of sport and supporting a team. We're very lucky to have such an excellent cross border competition and have the chance to visit some amazing places. Time to be positive lads - its a brilliant competition and its only going to get better so get yourselves a season ticket next year and enjoy yourselves