Wage cap - Updated with news on Saracens Punishment

by No 7&1/2 Tue 05 Mar 2019, 9:30 am

Saracens have made the following statement.
"
Club Statement - Co-investment partnerships between the Saracens owner and players.

Following a newspaper article, the Club would like to make the following statement:

“Firstly, we would like to reiterate that the Club readily complies with Premiership Rugby salary regulations and information relating to remuneration is declared to the salary cap manager. Although co-investment partnerships between owners and players are not a prerequisite of the salary regulations, we disclose these transactions to Premiership Rugby and will continue to do so.

“Currently, 57% of the men’s squad is comprised of home grown talent - the highest in the Premiership. These players not only produce results on the pitch, they help entitle the Club to £1.2m in credits above the baseline salary cap from the RFU and Premiership Rugby. This is a direct result of our significant investment in the Saracens Academy which nurtures and develops Saracens and England players of the future.

“A professional playing career in rugby can be short. We have a responsibility to help our players fulfil their potential, not just on the pitch but off it too. It is why our Academy incorporates an education programme that actively prepares players for life beyond the sport. We are encouraged that many of our senior players are exploring business opportunities away from rugby.”

To me it just seems to be we're doing good work for the England team so don't pry!

by marty2086 Tue 05 Mar 2019, 9:35 am

They call them co investment schemes but did the players make any investment in the schemes? Or did Wray take any dividend out?

by **LondonTiger** Tue 05 Mar 2019, 9:43 am

“Firstly, we would like to reiterate that the Club readily complies with Premiership Rugby salary regulations and information relating to remuneration is declared to the salary cap manager. Although co-investment partnerships between owners and players are not a prerequisite of the salary regulations, we disclose these transactions to Premiership Rugby and will continue to do so.

We tell them what they ask for. Not our fault that there are massive loopholes.

“Currently, 57% of the men’s squad is comprised of home grown talent - the highest in the Premiership. These players not only produce results on the pitch, they help entitle the Club to £1.2m in credits above the baseline salary cap from the RFU and Premiership Rugby. This is a direct result of our significant investment in the Saracens Academy which nurtures and develops Saracens and England players of the future.

Hey look we are great so we are allowed to break the cap both with permission and by obfuscation. Stop us and English rugby suffers.

“A professional playing career in rugby can be short. We have a responsibility to help our players fulfil their potential, not just on the pitch but off it too. It is why our Academy incorporates an education programme that actively prepares players for life beyond the sport. We are encouraged that many of our senior players are exploring business opportunities away from rugby.”

Look at us, are we not great?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 05 Mar 2019, 10:14 am

Yup. Seems to me a bit of cat and mouse where Saracens are practically daring someone to actually investigate and then potentially penalise them. Who can blame them for being so brazen after the last episode?

by marty2086 Tue 05 Mar 2019, 10:18 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup. Seems to me a bit of cat and mouse where Saracens are practically daring someone to actually investigate and then potentially penalise them. Who can blame them for being so brazen after the last episode?

They could have overlooked someone though, if this is basically a case of Wray paying them through the backdoor, HMRC might come sniffing too

by No 7&1/2 Tue 05 Mar 2019, 10:31 am

We'll see. I hold little hope the prl will have an impact as by hook or by crook it was buried before.

by formerly known as Sam Tue 05 Mar 2019, 10:45 am

Depends entirely on whether they are taking any money from the schemes as to whether HMRC will care. If the companies are paying their corporation tax and not issuing dividends then there's nothing for HMRC to investigate and technically no breach of salary cap as it's not money into the players pockets.

One of the companies was reported to have a 1.5m property and a 1.5m loan. So no material funds put in. Wrap might be the guarantor for the loan which allowed the company to purchase the property. Use the rent received to repay the loan whilst the property appreciates in value then sell it for a profit and split it between the shareholders (Wray plus player(s)).

by marty2086 Tue 05 Mar 2019, 11:11 am

Sam, it depends where the loan came from. If it's from Wray and no repayments are being made then HMRC won't see that as a loan, I've known them to do that in the past

by formerly known as Sam Tue 05 Mar 2019, 11:29 am

I'm just going by an article I've seen that specified it as a bank loan. DLA would be different I agree.

by marty2086 Tue 05 Mar 2019, 11:56 am

Just checked the accounts £1,080,444 are bank loans, other loans are £522,560

by yappysnap Tue 05 Mar 2019, 9:16 pm

Ssshhh come on guys, don't do this right before a World Cup. We need to band together and show a united front, so let's leave Sarries to it and just look the other way. Better all around that way.

by Brendan Tue 05 Mar 2019, 10:11 pm

Isn't it the problem of if Sarries pay a player 200k but in the contract it states the player can do his own image rights which he does through "Definately not Sarries Imaging ltd" who pay him 300k it would be outside the wage cap.

Or he signs a deal for 400k and his partner signs on as an ambassador for 100k.

There is no way to manage it unless all clubs and players a clear on what exactly their agreement is.

by maestegmafia Wed 06 Mar 2019, 5:51 am

I am amazed that fans of rival clubs in England aren’t absolutely livid at this situation?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 06 Mar 2019, 8:44 am

Resignation. No power to act against it.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 06 Mar 2019, 9:04 am

Aye wistful resignation.

by carpet baboon Wed 06 Mar 2019, 9:13 am

So will other clubs now just start ignoring the cap too?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 06 Mar 2019, 9:14 am

Some animals are more equal than others.

by marty2086 Wed 06 Mar 2019, 10:30 am

carpet baboon wrote:So will other clubs now just start ignoring the cap too?

Former Gloucester owner has tweeted some interesting things

https://twitter.com/RyanWalkinshaw/status/1103096166948909057

by No 7&1/2 Wed 06 Mar 2019, 1:12 pm

Yeah. It's what the vast majority summised at the time about Bath and Saracens. There wasn't too many defending them. May have only been one.

by carpet baboon Wed 06 Mar 2019, 1:14 pm

marty2086 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:So will other clubs now just start ignoring the cap too?

Former Gloucester owner has tweeted some interesting things

https://twitter.com/RyanWalkinshaw/status/1103096166948909057

Was wondering if he would speak out.
In the first breach I heard he was the one who stormed out when it was obvious it was going to be swept under the carpet.

by king_carlos Wed 06 Mar 2019, 1:35 pm

Brendan wrote:Isn't it the problem of if Sarries pay a player 200k but in the contract it states the player can do his own image rights which he does through "Definately not Sarries Imaging ltd" who pay him 300k it would be outside the wage cap.

Or he signs a deal for 400k and his partner signs on as an ambassador for 100k.

There is no way to manage it unless all clubs and players a clear on what exactly their agreement is.

Since the first breach it is supposed to be policed more carefully. Payments to spouses, school fees, image rights, housing, holidays, etc are included in the cap.

Hence the more nefarious methods seemingly being used here whereby it seems that Wray fronts money (or acts as guarantor for a loan) for the property and players get ownership in the company. From there it could be the usual case of buy-to-let landlords using the rent to payoff the loan before selling for a big profit that the players enjoy.

A interesting point in the Walkinshaw tweets is the bit about it being in the players interests to keep their mouths shut. Interesting that the story has broken whilst players are on International duty. I do wonder if anything has been mentioned in camp between players given the different club affiliations they all have.

by BamBam Wed 06 Mar 2019, 1:48 pm

I just miss beshocked at times like this, within 2 hours he'd make sure we all completely understood the reasons for the alleged malpractice and we'd be in complete agreement that no one should be punished

by **LondonTiger** Wed 06 Mar 2019, 2:29 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Brendan wrote:Isn't it the problem of if Sarries pay a player 200k but in the contract it states the player can do his own image rights which he does through "Definately not Sarries Imaging ltd" who pay him 300k it would be outside the wage cap.

Or he signs a deal for 400k and his partner signs on as an ambassador for 100k.

There is no way to manage it unless all clubs and players a clear on what exactly their agreement is.

Since the first breach it is supposed to be policed more carefully. Payments to spouses, school fees, image rights, housing, holidays, etc are included in the cap.

Hence the more nefarious methods seemingly being used here whereby it seems that Wray fronts money (or acts as guarantor for a loan) for the property and players get ownership in the company. From there it could be the usual case of buy-to-let landlords using the rent to payoff the loan before selling for a big profit that the players enjoy.

A interesting point in the Walkinshaw tweets is the bit about it being in the players interests to keep their mouths shut. Interesting that the story has broken whilst players are on International duty. I do wonder if anything has been mentioned in camp between players given the different club affiliations they all have.

Payments to spouses still largely get through outside of the cap, so long as it can be shown that they are doing a job they are qualified for.

Other family members also can be employed by clubs. Jamie George's brother works for Sarries as a physio while their father works in the Sarries academy. In fact doesn't Jamie have a physio practice? Not sure if they have any involvement with Sarries.

Owen Slot in the times tried to calculate the Saracens player salary total for a squad of 43. Speaking to agents and people at other clubs he estimated:

12 on lowest wage of £60k - £720k
12 between £100-£200k - £1.8m
8 at £250k - £2m
6 at £350k - £2.1m
4 between £400-£500k - £1.8m
Farrell on £750k

That makes a total of £9.17m which is > than the £7m cap.
However two Marquee players (Williams and Farrell), represent £1.2m and Sarries say they get £1,2m in credits for producing England players. This would put them under the cap.

by carpet baboon Wed 06 Mar 2019, 2:30 pm

BamBam wrote:I just miss beshocked at times like this, within 2 hours he'd make sure we all completely understood the reasons for the alleged malpractice and we'd be in complete agreement that no one should be punished

You have made me miss that crazy sarries fan. Did we ever find out what Owen Farrell did that so upset him?

by **LondonTiger** Wed 06 Mar 2019, 2:30 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
BamBam wrote:I just miss beshocked at times like this, within 2 hours he'd make sure we all completely understood the reasons for the alleged malpractice and we'd be in complete agreement that no one should be punished

You have made me miss that crazy sarries fan. Did we ever find out what Owen Farrell did that so upset him?

No.

by marty2086 Wed 06 Mar 2019, 2:32 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Brendan wrote:Isn't it the problem of if Sarries pay a player 200k but in the contract it states the player can do his own image rights which he does through "Definately not Sarries Imaging ltd" who pay him 300k it would be outside the wage cap.

Or he signs a deal for 400k and his partner signs on as an ambassador for 100k.

There is no way to manage it unless all clubs and players a clear on what exactly their agreement is.

Since the first breach it is supposed to be policed more carefully. Payments to spouses, school fees, image rights, housing, holidays, etc are included in the cap.

Hence the more nefarious methods seemingly being used here whereby it seems that Wray fronts money (or acts as guarantor for a loan) for the property and players get ownership in the company. From there it could be the usual case of buy-to-let landlords using the rent to payoff the loan before selling for a big profit that the players enjoy.

A interesting point in the Walkinshaw tweets is the bit about it being in the players interests to keep their mouths shut. Interesting that the story has broken whilst players are on International duty. I do wonder if anything has been mentioned in camp between players given the different club affiliations they all have.

Payments to spouses still largely get through outside of the cap, so long as it can be shown that they are doing a job they are qualified for.

Other family members also can be employed by clubs. Jamie George's brother works for Sarries as a physio while their father works in the Sarries academy. In fact doesn't Jamie have a physio practice? Not sure if they have any involvement with Sarries.

Owen Slot in the times tried to calculate the Saracens player salary total for a squad of 43. Speaking to agents and people at other clubs he estimated:

12 on lowest wage of £60k - £720k
12 between £100-£200k - £1.8m
8 at £250k - £2m
6 at £350k - £2.1m
4 between £400-£500k - £1.8m
Farrell on £750k

That makes a total of £9.17m which is > than the £7m cap.
However two Marquee players (Williams and Farrell), represent £1.2m and Sarries say they get £1,2m in credits for producing England players. This would put them under the cap.

The problem is that is Gross pay, factor in NI contributions, pensions etc that will increase

by **LondonTiger** Wed 06 Mar 2019, 2:59 pm

Employers NI will sit outside the cap. Not sure about Employers pension contributions, especially as they are mandatory now.

by marty2086 Wed 06 Mar 2019, 3:03 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Employers NI will sit outside the cap. Not sure about Employers pension contributions, especially as they are mandatory now.

According to the Premiership website it just says National Insurance, I took that to mean ALL National Insurance. Also because Employees NI is part of the Gross Wage so including that would be pointless

Saracens had a pension scheme prior to auto enrolment so would be exempt from the auto enrolment scheme but pension is included

by king_carlos Wed 06 Mar 2019, 3:04 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Brendan wrote:Isn't it the problem of if Sarries pay a player 200k but in the contract it states the player can do his own image rights which he does through "Definately not Sarries Imaging ltd" who pay him 300k it would be outside the wage cap.

Or he signs a deal for 400k and his partner signs on as an ambassador for 100k.

There is no way to manage it unless all clubs and players a clear on what exactly their agreement is.

Since the first breach it is supposed to be policed more carefully. Payments to spouses, school fees, image rights, housing, holidays, etc are included in the cap.

Hence the more nefarious methods seemingly being used here whereby it seems that Wray fronts money (or acts as guarantor for a loan) for the property and players get ownership in the company. From there it could be the usual case of buy-to-let landlords using the rent to payoff the loan before selling for a big profit that the players enjoy.

A interesting point in the Walkinshaw tweets is the bit about it being in the players interests to keep their mouths shut. Interesting that the story has broken whilst players are on International duty. I do wonder if anything has been mentioned in camp between players given the different club affiliations they all have.

Payments to spouses still largely get through outside of the cap, so long as it can be shown that they are doing a job they are qualified for.

Other family members also can be employed by clubs. Jamie George's brother works for Sarries as a physio while their father works in the Sarries academy. In fact doesn't Jamie have a physio practice? Not sure if they have any involvement with Sarries.

Owen Slot in the times tried to calculate the Saracens player salary total for a squad of 43. Speaking to agents and people at other clubs he estimated:

12 on lowest wage of £60k - £720k
12 between £100-£200k - £1.8m
8 at £250k - £2m
6 at £350k - £2.1m
4 between £400-£500k - £1.8m
Farrell on £750k

That makes a total of £9.17m which is > than the £7m cap.
However two Marquee players (Williams and Farrell), represent £1.2m and Sarries say they get £1,2m in credits for producing England players. This would put them under the cap.

The cap is actually £6.4m but clubs are entitled to up to £600k (£50k per player up to a max of 12) for home grown players. That takes it to £7m.

Salary Regulations 18/19 wrote:Senior EPS and International Player Credits

1. Where a Club is unable to select a Player in its squad for either an [Aviva]
Premiership or European Champions or Challenge Cup match as a result of that
Player (i) being selected in a match day squad by his national union and released
in accordance with World Rugby Regulation 9 or (ii) are absent under the terms of
the Heads of Agreement (or any successor of this agreement) (which includes EPS
Rest and Blocked weeks as defined in the Professional Game Agreement (or any
successor of this agreement) or (iii) released in accordance with any relevant PRL
Board Policy, and subject to Regulation 3.2(b)4 below, there shall be:

A. For any International Qualified Player, who is not a Senior EPS Player, a
£10,000 per [Aviva] Premiership or European Champions or Challenge Cup
match credit (“International Variable Player Credit”);

For avoidance of doubt, an England Player who is not a Senior EPS Player may
2018/19 Regulations – Approved by PRL Board on 17 October 2017 Page 13 of 57
qualify for an International Variable Player Credit if his Club is unable to select
the Player pursuant to Regulation 3.2(b)1. above.

B. For any International Qualified Player, who is a Senior EPS Player, a £5,000
per [Aviva] Premiership or European Champions or Challenge Cup match
credit (“Senior EPS Player Variable Credit”);

2. In addition to Regulation 1(b) above, where a Senior EPS Player is an International
Qualified Player at a Club the Club shall be entitled to a fixed credit of £40,000
(“Senior EPS Player Fixed Credit”) for that Player in the Salary Cap Year.

3. Absence from an [Aviva] Premiership or European Champions or Challenge Cup
match due to injury will not result in an International Variable Player Credit or a
Senior EPS Player Variable Credit.

4. A Club shall not be permitted to utilise more than a combined total of £80,000 for
Home Grown Player Credit and/or International Variable Player Credit and/or
Senior EPS Player Fixed and/or Variable Credits for any Player in a Salary Cap
Year.

Then you have that to add on as credits for international appearances. Headscratch

Credits breakdown

- £80k maximum credits per player each season.

- £50k for a home grown player each season up to 12 players.

- £40k for 'senior EPS player fixed credit'

- £5k 'senior EPS variable credit' for each Prem or European game missed by EPS player due to international call-up.

- £10k 'International variable player credit' for each Prem or European game missed due to international call-up by player who isn't a senior EPS player.

by king_carlos Wed 06 Mar 2019, 3:36 pm

12 on lowest wage of £60k - £720k
12 between £100-£200k - £1.8m

8 at £250k - £2m
Kruis, Wigglesworth, Bosch, Taylor, Lozowski, Rhodes, Figallo, Tolofua

6 at £350k - £2.1m
Maitland, Goode, George, Itoje, Skelton, Koch

4 between £400-£500k - £1.8m
Mako, Billy, Williams, Burger

Farrell on £750k

However you rearrange those top earners - i.e. Itoje could be in the £400-500k bracket - there are going to be some earners in the £250k and £350k brackets that raise a few eyebrows.

Which bracket Bosch goes in is interesting in regards to next season given Daly is meant to be taking his wage - reportedly a £450k deal. Williams will also need to fit in the cap next season with Itoje getting a huge pay hike.

However you swing it the numbers don't seem to add up.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 06 Mar 2019, 4:18 pm

Itoje was listed in the 350k Bracket but due to move to £500k when new contract kicks in at end of season. He had Jamie George in the upper band, not Burger.

I guess it was just an exercise to try and show how he could fit the players into the cap. My major questions were less about the top paid but whether there were really 30% of the squad on £60k. I guess it should also be noted that long term injured such as Bosch and Taylor can be removed from the equation.

If Sarries are under the cap, it is likely to be only by fully utilising any loophole they can find.

by BamBam Wed 06 Mar 2019, 4:22 pm

I always thought the marquee players had to be players brought in from outside of the league, how does Farrell count?

by marty2086 Wed 06 Mar 2019, 4:38 pm

BamBam wrote:I always thought the marquee players had to be players brought in from outside of the league, how does Farrell count?

Is it not just players not signed from other Premiership clubs

by BamBam Wed 06 Mar 2019, 4:40 pm

Oh is it? That would explain it, so you can designate a home grown player as marquee?

by marty2086 Wed 06 Mar 2019, 4:46 pm

A Club shall only be entitled to nominate a Player as their first Excluded Player who:
(i) has been a Player of the Club for at least two full Salary Cap Years prior to the
Salary Cap Year in which he is nominated as the Excluded Player; or
(ii) has not been a Player of any Club during the previous Salary Cap Year, other
than a Player who (A) qualifies under Regulation 3.3(c)(i) or (B) has only
been a Player of a Club during the previous Salary Cap Year as a replacement
for an Injured Player following dispensation under Regulation 5; or
(iii) has been a Player (but not an Excluded Player) for the Club in the previous
Salary Cap Year and was not a Player for any other Club for at least one Salary
Cap Year immediately prior to joining the Club.
(d) A Club shall only be entitled to nominate a Player as a second Excluded Player who:
(i) has not been a Player of any Club during the previous Salary Cap Year; or
(ii) was that Club’s second Excluded Player in the previous Salary Cap Year.

Hope that clarifies it

by king_carlos Wed 06 Mar 2019, 6:51 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Itoje was listed in the 350k Bracket but due to move to £500k when new contract kicks in at end of season. He had Jamie George in the upper band, not Burger.

I guess it was just an exercise to try and show how he could fit the players into the cap. My major questions were less about the top paid but whether there were really 30% of the squad on £60k. I guess it should also be noted that long term injured such as Bosch and Taylor can be removed from the equation.

If Sarries are under the cap, it is likely to be only by fully utilising any loophole they can find.

Itoje would be higher than that next season if rumours of his contract are correct. That's irrelevant to any investigation about current practices though I admit.

Bosch and Taylor are still in the cap despite their injuries. Injury dispensation can increase the cap by up to £400k but the injured players are still in the cap.

The mail are now reporting that a Premiership club have privately hired a firm to investigate Sarries offshore accounts due to lack of confidence in the governing body.

by marty2086 Wed 06 Mar 2019, 9:25 pm

How much of the season does a player have to miss to be excluded from the cap?

Isn't there also a dispensation available for bringing injury cover in?

by king_carlos Thu 07 Mar 2019, 1:04 am

Salary cap regs 2018/19 wrote:"Injured Player" means any Senior Player of a Club who sustains an injury which has
prevented or is anticipated to prevent him playing rugby
(a) for a minimum continuous period of twelve weeks within a Season; or
(b) where the same injury spans two Salary Cap Years the injury is for a minimum of
eight weeks within the Season of the Salary Cap Year in relation to which the injury
dispensation is being sought,
subject in each case to the requirement that once an injured player is selected in

Salary cap regs 2018/19 wrote:In the event that, due to a Senior Player becoming an Injured Player, a Club wishes to procure
a replacement to provide cover for the Injured Player the Club shall be permitted to exceed
the Senior Ceiling by a maximum of £400,000 to replace the Injured Player, provided the
Club has applied in writing to the Salary Cap Manager for dispensation and has been granted
dispensation by the Salary Cap Manager in accordance with this Regulation 5.
For the avoidance of doubt where a Club’s Excluded Player becomes an Injured Player the
replacement Player’s Salary shall be counted within the £400,000 and shall not be exempt
from the provisions set out in Regulation 5.

- Injured players aren't removed from the cap but if injury dispensation signings will take the club over the salary cap (£6.4m + various credits) then the club can exceed the cap by a maximum of £400k to sign replacements.

- If injured during the current season then the player has to be out for 12 weeks to make a dispensation signing.

- If the injury spans 2 seasons then it has to be for a minimum of 8 weeks in the season in which the application for injury dispensation is being made.

I'm honestly uncertain if there has been a situation in which a player suffered a severe enough injury in the previous season that they would miss the entire following season and hence the club didn't include them in the cap. I'm aware of players who have missed entire seasons but on those occasions they have been expected to return the following season but suffered set-backs. Hence they will have been in the cap, expecting to return mid-season but didn't manage to.

I'd be interested to know if a club have not registered an injured player as a 'senior player' in the cap - hence they wouldn't be available if they did get fit - as they already knew they were guaranteed to miss the entire season before it started.

by carpet baboon Thu 07 Mar 2019, 9:22 am

So in conclusion:
The cap rules have many loopholes.
Lots of teams seemingly exploit them.
Nigel would seem to do it a lot and his statement seems to be saying "f**k you try and stop me, without me your all nothing"
It would seem the PRL will continue its stance of asking teams to not be so obvious in there cheating so they don't look bad.

Is that about right?

by BamBam Thu 07 Mar 2019, 9:52 am

Sounds about right. Hugely disappointing as a fan, but speaking with my finance professional hat on, I have to say that the creativity of accountants never fails to amaze

by marty2086 Thu 07 Mar 2019, 9:56 am

king_carlos wrote:
Salary cap regs 2018/19 wrote:"Injured Player" means any Senior Player of a Club who sustains an injury which has
prevented or is anticipated to prevent him playing rugby
(a) for a minimum continuous period of twelve weeks within a Season; or
(b) where the same injury spans two Salary Cap Years the injury is for a minimum of
eight weeks within the Season of the Salary Cap Year in relation to which the injury
dispensation is being sought,
subject in each case to the requirement that once an injured player is selected in

Salary cap regs 2018/19 wrote:In the event that, due to a Senior Player becoming an Injured Player, a Club wishes to procure
a replacement to provide cover for the Injured Player the Club shall be permitted to exceed
the Senior Ceiling by a maximum of £400,000 to replace the Injured Player, provided the
Club has applied in writing to the Salary Cap Manager for dispensation and has been granted
dispensation by the Salary Cap Manager in accordance with this Regulation 5.
For the avoidance of doubt where a Club’s Excluded Player becomes an Injured Player the
replacement Player’s Salary shall be counted within the £400,000 and shall not be exempt
from the provisions set out in Regulation 5.
- Injured players aren't removed from the cap but if injury dispensation signings will take the club over the salary cap (£6.4m + various credits) then the club can exceed the cap by a maximum of £400k to sign replacements.

- If injured during the current season then the player has to be out for 12 weeks to make a dispensation signing.

- If the injury spans 2 seasons then it has to be for a minimum of 8 weeks in the season in which the application for injury dispensation is being made.

I'm honestly uncertain if there has been a situation in which a player suffered a severe enough injury in the previous season that they would miss the entire following season and hence the club didn't include them in the cap. I'm aware of players who have missed entire seasons but on those occasions they have been expected to return the following season but suffered set-backs. Hence they will have been in the cap, expecting to return mid-season but didn't manage to.

I'd be interested to know if a club have not registered an injured player as a 'senior player' in the cap - hence they wouldn't be available if they did get fit - as they already knew they were guaranteed to miss the entire season before it started.

Thanks for that, couldn't get the search function working to find the section

Who defines when a player is injured? If a club state their £600k a year player will miss 12 weeks does anyone independently assess whether he will those 12 weeks or if they are ready to play after 10/11 weeks does it still qualify as it includes the word anticipates?

by No 7&1/2 Thu 07 Mar 2019, 10:07 am

Ha. It's these sort of headaches and detailed questions which makes me say that introducing a wage cap in the pro 14 is unenforceable!

by marty2086 Thu 07 Mar 2019, 10:17 am

BamBam wrote:Sounds about right. Hugely disappointing as a fan, but speaking with my finance professional hat on, I have to say that the creativity of accountants never fails to amaze

Almost seems a shame when HMRC and UKG come along and grandfather in new laws that undo the creativity

by marty2086 Thu 07 Mar 2019, 10:19 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha. It's these sort of headaches and detailed questions which makes me say that introducing a wage cap in the pro 14 is unenforceable!

It already was, with the IRFU central contracts, the Welsh NDCs etc is was always going to be way too complex to find a system that could adequately accommodate that. Caps can be introduced in England and France because everyone has the same system and the clubs pay the wages

by No 7&1/2 Thu 07 Mar 2019, 10:21 am

And you can see what a farce it is when it's 'easier!

by **LondonTiger** Thu 07 Mar 2019, 10:24 am

BamBam wrote:Sounds about right. Hugely disappointing as a fan, but speaking with my finance professional hat on, I have to say that the creativity of accountants never fails to amaze

I know that we are very cute in how we use the injured player dispensations. Not sure we have the backers available to ride roughshod through the cap though. (Though people may remember Castro and Geordan's failed restaurant venture, and I think Lenny still has a coffee and doughnut stand)

by BamBam Thu 07 Mar 2019, 10:24 am

marty2086 wrote:
BamBam wrote:Sounds about right. Hugely disappointing as a fan, but speaking with my finance professional hat on, I have to say that the creativity of accountants never fails to amaze

Almost seems a shame when HMRC and UKG come along and grandfather in new laws that undo the creativity

Alternatively, the new laws just mean ongoing work for the clever accountants to figure out something new!

by tigertattie Thu 07 Mar 2019, 10:26 am

BamBam wrote:Sounds about right. Hugely disappointing as a fan, but speaking with my finance professional hat on, I have to say that the creativity of accountants never fails to amaze

For avoidance of dount, I'm not saying that the accountants at Sarries are being creative, but my god I've seen some absolute belters in my time.

"Lets just slide this £5m over into this spreadsheet marked as 'pending' and we'll count it as profit when working out the company's performance related bonus payments, but then when we're working out the revenue to pay corporate income tax, we'll slide the £5m back out so it no longer exists again" Hug

by marty2086 Thu 07 Mar 2019, 10:41 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:And you can see what a farce it is when it's 'easier!

Sure the IRFU helped get Sexton get a brand ambassador role when he came back from Paris and previously helped Heaslip sell his image rights to incentivise him to stay in Ireland, I don't think it went directly through the IRFUs bank but the deals wouldn't have happened if they hadn't signed with them. Under the English cap that may be a grey area of it all, I'm sure there are examples in England of it whereby players become brand ambassadors or sell image rights after a club has helped broker something but it's not directly linked to the club or a sponsor etc

by king_carlos Thu 07 Mar 2019, 3:08 pm

marty2086 wrote:Thanks for that, couldn't get the search function working to find the section

Who defines when a player is injured? If a club state their £600k a year player will miss 12 weeks does anyone independently assess whether he will those 12 weeks or if they are ready to play after 10/11 weeks does it still qualify as it includes the word anticipates?

An injury certificate has to be entered and signed off by the clubs doctor. Hence it isn't independently assessed but the doctors reputation on the line. This here is another grey area in all sport however with a history of questionable injury replacements backed up by medical staff.

In those circumstances punishments are naturally dealt with higher up as well. If a Doctor is charged with alleged conduct that can bring the profession into disrepute it is far more serious that a rugby matter. Dr Chapman, the man who cut Tom Williams lip in the bloodgate scandal, was cleared to continue practicing medicine by the General Medical Council. As far as I'm aware he is no longer working in sport though.

As with all the laws they can be manipulated of course. Many clubs, Tigers included, pretty much use the £400k dispensation ceiling as an extra part of the cap by being cute with when they register squad signings.

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