Wage cap - Updated with news on Saracens Punishment

First topic message reminder :

Saracens have made the following statement.
"
Club Statement - Co-investment partnerships between the Saracens owner and players.

Following a newspaper article, the Club would like to make the following statement: 

“Firstly, we would like to reiterate that the Club readily complies with Premiership Rugby salary regulations and information relating to remuneration is declared to the salary cap manager. Although co-investment partnerships between owners and players are not a prerequisite of the salary regulations, we disclose these transactions to Premiership Rugby and will continue to do so. 

“Currently, 57% of the men’s squad is comprised of home grown talent - the highest in the Premiership. These players not only produce results on the pitch, they help entitle the Club to £1.2m in credits above the baseline salary cap from the RFU and Premiership Rugby. This is a direct result of our significant investment in the Saracens Academy which nurtures and develops Saracens and England players of the future. 

“A professional playing career in rugby can be short. We have a responsibility to help our players fulfil their potential, not just on the pitch but off it too.  It is why our Academy incorporates an education programme that actively prepares players for life beyond the sport. We are encouraged that many of our senior players are exploring business opportunities away from rugby.”

To me it just seems to be we're doing good work for the England team so don't pry!

The pound has already fallen significantly, notably against the Euro it's virtually 1 to 1 in value now.

The wage cap is normally set for a number of years at a time so that clubs can plan appropriately.

Brendan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I would like to see a wage cap introduced to the Pro14.

There was for some of the teams and it didn't go to well.

All the teams have maximums they are willing to spend on wages.  The SRU could choose to have a higher wage cap than they do but they have decided that there is a max wage they will pay in Scotland.

We could bring in a £10m wage cap I guess, but depending on Brexit it might not be a lot.  Which brings up an interesting point.  If the pound drops in value by say 20% (highly unlikely) would the premiership cap have to be increased as it would lower the purchase power of the teams or is it set for a number of years.

£10m is far too high. I would like to see a wage cap in the region of about £8m. It is too much of a risk for private owners to have to compete with the unions, private owners do not have the cash cow of international rugby to prop them up.

I remember when we brought in a salary minimum spend in Wales, rather than a cap, and the Dragons couldn't reach it Sad but true! I think it was something like £4.5m!

To see a great example of the success of salary / spending caps, just look at how much they've stopped Saracens / Man City / PSG from doing what they please

What is intresting is the SA sides budgets.
In 2017 Cheetahs had R41 million (£2.25 million) for 92 players and Southern Kings R12 million (£660,000) for 68 players
Under the new rules 8 SA unions are limited to R60 million (£3.3 million) and a max of 45 contracted players.

This should result in the bigger Unions not being able to stockpile all the talent and a more even spread, which will be good for the Kings and Cheetahs. Also there will be up to 80 players deemed players of national intrest, whos wages will be topped up by SA Rugby.

How that fits into a budget cap with other Pro 14 teams I don't know, but I'm happier with there not being a cap, but a limit on non qualified players. It mostly sits around 4 NIQ/E in Ireland and I think this is a better system for the Pro 14. Indeed it would be better for world rugby with less pressure to Super Rugby sides losing talent.

Yeah wage caps are only as good as the teams involved are honest and playing to the spirit of the rule. Doesn't work for teams like saracens.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah wage caps are only as good as the teams involved are honest and playing to the spirit of the rule. Doesn't work for teams like saracens.

Which teams in the Pro14 do you think would break the salary cap, and not be honest ?

Dont know. But they're all run by humans and there'll always be someone pushing it.
Almost impossible for one run in the pro 14 though as it'll be so complicated. Those complications open the doors to a but of abuse.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Dont know. But they're all run by humans and there'll always be someone pushing it.
Almost impossible for one run in the pro 14 though as it'll be so complicated. Those complications open the doors to a but of abuse.

Well it would not be the Welsh regions, as they are skint, so you can now narrow it down to 10 teams. Go on, if you are so sure someone will be pushing it, try and work it out.

I think a salary cap in the Pro14 would be a breath of fresh air.

Well depending on how the laws were worded you may have to cut all additional payments from the union which tempts players like Moriarty back as the English clubs couldn't compete. Circumstances also change so what may not be affordable now may not be the case next year etc. What your also not considering is where the salary cap is set. 1 million a year and suddenly even the dragons would be able to push the cap.

No one said there was a specific team who would break the cap, the point was that salary caps have been tried and in reality have failed in more high profile and well run competitions.

The chances of it succeeding in the Pro14 are probably lower just based on its various ownership structures adding increasing complexity

Kingshu wrote:What is intresting is the SA sides budgets.
In 2017 Cheetahs had R41 million (£2.25 million) for 92 players and Southern Kings R12 million (£660,000) for 68 players
Under the new rules 8 SA unions are limited to R60 million (£3.3 million) and a max of 45 contracted players.

This should result in the bigger Unions not being able to stockpile all the talent and a more even spread, which will be good for the Kings and Cheetahs. Also there will be up to 80 players deemed players of national intrest, whos wages will be topped up by SA Rugby.

How that fits into a budget cap with other Pro 14 teams I don't know, but I'm happier with there not being a cap, but a limit on non qualified players. It mostly sits around 4 NIQ/E in Ireland and I think this is a better system for the Pro 14. Indeed it would be better for world rugby with less pressure to Super Rugby sides losing talent.

It would be beneficial to the national teams but not necessarily to the clubs or for the growth of the game. There's the possibility for a very insular view of the game when sometimes it is beneficial to get outside influences. Those outside influences aren't always top level players, take Boris Stankovitch the loosehead prop now scrum coach at Tigers (formerly Dragons). There's no way Dragons or Tigers would have signed him if limited by the number of none qualifying players (ignore that he might have qualified for England on residency). The loss to Dragons and Tigers would have been substantial though as he was an exceptionally technical scrummager and coach able to help develop those skills. Dragons have some young props who have no doubt been helped by his skills and the likes of Cole, Genge, Heyes and Gigena have very much been helped by his mentoring.

Certainly no one likes to see a band of mercenaries pull on their club's shirt every week but it is not always so cut and dry.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well depending on how the laws were worded you may have to cut all additional payments from the union which tempts players like Moriarty back as the English clubs couldn't compete. Circumstances also change so what may not be affordable now may not be the case next year etc. What your also not considering is where the salary cap is set. 1 million a year and suddenly even the dragons would be able to push the cap.

It should be set at the going rate, what is the English salary cap ? £8m ? I reckon 8 million is a fair cap. Set it at that. That includes everything, what the unions contribute, what the private owners contribute, everything.

It's not rocket science.

BamBam wrote:No one said there was a specific team who would break the cap, the point was that salary caps have been tried and in reality have failed in more high profile and well run competitions.

The chances of it succeeding in the Pro14 are probably lower just based on its various ownership structures adding increasing complexity

According to No 7 & 1/2 there would be always someone pushing it. I just wanted to know, who reckons it would be in the Pro14, that's all. Why should different ownership structures make it more complex ?

You are only allowed to spend X amount, no more, no matter who is paying the wages. Nothing complex about that.

So as long as teams get what they want they wont break the rules. Fair point. Would irish teams be happy with that or would they prefer 10 million? Would Italians be happy or would they prefer lower? What happens when the pound falls through the floor?
Would the welsh clubs all ve within the 8 million you've plucked form the air now with the wru funding in there?

Do you think teams should be allowed to set up income making companies in partnership with players? Saracens seem to think so.

Are you confident that every eventuality in 5 different countries (probably will be 5 separate legal systems soon) would be covered?

If one of the deep pocketed owners is unhappy with the restriction to trade, does the Pro14 have the resources to fight a legal battle, or would they just settle and make the salary cap pointless

No 7&1/2 wrote:So as long as teams get what they want they wont break the rules. Fair point.  Would irish teams be happy with that or would they prefer 10 million? Would Italians be happy or would they prefer lower? What happens when the pound falls through the floor?
Would the welsh clubs all ve within the 8 million you've plucked form the air now with the wru funding in there?

Everybody agrees, they all get together and come up with a fair figure. I only said £8M as that is what the English cap is, isn't it ?

You are trying to muddy the waters, why ? Only you can answer.

I have already explained, the cap is the cap, whoever is contributing, so if Dragons have Moriarty on £400K per year, then that leaves them whatever the cap is set at, minus his wages, no matter who is paying.

Also, why do you think the pound will fall through the floor ? At the moment, it is level pegging with the Euro, 1 for 1. Anyway, the cap should be set at the equivalent in Euros as to what Sterling is currently at and vice versa.

Again, not rocket science.

BamBam wrote:Do you think teams should be allowed to set up income making companies in partnership with players? Saracens seem to think so.

Are you confident that every eventuality in 5 different countries (probably will be 5 separate legal systems soon) would be covered?

If one of the deep pocketed owners is unhappy with the restriction to trade, does the Pro14 have the resources to fight a legal battle, or would they just settle and make the salary cap pointless

When these same points were made to you, regarding Saracens, you dismissed them, in fact, you were very vocal about them cheating, and you wanted justice.

Anyway, all I am saying is, a salary cap, if adhered to, would be a breath of fresh air in the Pro14. Why are so many people on here against it for the Pro14, but want it enforced in the Gallagher Prem ?

I'm giving examples how it would be complicated to agree a figure to start with. If you can get that agreement then fair enough. English clubs did and saracens still try to cheat it. If the figure suits everyone and no one has to reduce their cap ok. No deal brexit may be round the corner which will hit the pound. There's also unknown scenarios.
My original comment was based on every time a wage cap has been introduced but you may well be right and the pro 14 may finally be the time it works.doubt it though.

One of the problemos though is that nobody but nobody is saying there should be a cap on investment in rugby.  Indeed all the talk in the investment chats is always MORE - More in sponsorship, more from Networks, more cohesion of goals to attract even bigger investors (who might then want a controlling stake so big is their investment potential)

Now....add the numbers in the natural world.  The product is rugby - the market wants to invest - the salesmen are the rugby players.  Most modern rugby players aren't dumb - and if they are, their ever greedy agents aren't.  They know their value to the product and therefore they know what cut they want out of any future investments.  That cut will usually take the form of salary demand.

So whilst the idea of a universally agreed cap (or European wide one, or British and Irish one) is theoretically a good one.  If a decided cap doesn't satisfy the needs of some higher quality players who know they are giving more to the product than lesser players...then the only outcome would be the reduction in squad numbers.  High skilled players simply won't allow their cut to be evened out as they see others in rugby begin to make vast profits.  It just don't happen.

I think in regards to the last question is that a few are fine with salary caps but doubt they can be enforced successfully.

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:Do you think teams should be allowed to set up income making companies in partnership with players? Saracens seem to think so.

Are you confident that every eventuality in 5 different countries (probably will be 5 separate legal systems soon) would be covered?

If one of the deep pocketed owners is unhappy with the restriction to trade, does the Pro14 have the resources to fight a legal battle, or would they just settle and make the salary cap pointless

When these same points were made to you, regarding Saracens, you dismissed them, in fact, you were very vocal about them cheating, and you wanted justice.

Anyway, all I am saying is, a salary cap, if adhered to, would be a breath of fresh air in the Pro14. Why are so many people on here against it for the Pro14, but want it enforced in the Gallagher Prem ?

Well done, you've precisely proved my point

Saracens have cheated, I would love to see justice, but in reality the salary cap laws aren't worth the paper they're written on if the ruling body isn't going to enforce them via actual punishments

"IF ADHERED TO" is a naive assumption to make

What point have I proven ?

That you have double standards ? You want the cap enforced in England, but do not want one in the Pro14, why ?

BamBam wrote:"IF ADHERED TO" is a naive assumption to make

Why ? Do you think teams in the Pro14 would cheat ?

Absolutely they would. Every time a salary cap is tried someone pushes it who doesn't like the limit.

Comes down a little to what is the point. If it's to make the league or competition super competitive why not limit it to the lowest teams budget?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Absolutely they would. Every time a salary cap is tried someone pushes it who doesn't like the limit.

And which teams do you think would cheat the salary cap ?

The ones which are unhappy at any point would be the most likely.

LordDowlais wrote:What point have I proven ?

That you have double standards ? You want the cap enforced in England, but do not want one in the Pro14, why ?

BamBam wrote:"IF ADHERED TO" is a naive assumption to make

Why ? Do you think teams in the Pro14 would cheat ?

I couldn't care less whether there was one in the Pro14 or not. My starting point was that salary caps have not been successful in European sporting leagues so far. Does that make sense? In any case, if they are in place, they should be enforced. As it stands, there has been no punishment for those who have broken caps

BamBam wrote:To see a great example of the success of salary / spending caps, just look at how much they've stopped Saracens / Man City / PSG from doing what they please

BamBam wrote:No one said there was a specific team who would break the cap, the point was that salary caps have been tried and in reality have failed in more high profile and well run competitions.

The chances of it succeeding in the Pro14 are probably lower just based on its various ownership structures adding increasing complexity

No 7&1/2 wrote:The ones which are unhappy at any point would be the most likely.

And who would they be ?

Anyway, are you happy that there is a cap in the Gallagher Premiership ?

Depends who would be unhappy at the time LD.
The salary cap in the prem is worthless as teams break it and nothing happens.

BamBam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What point have I proven ?

That you have double standards ? You want the cap enforced in England, but do not want one in the Pro14, why ?

BamBam wrote:"IF ADHERED TO" is a naive assumption to make

Why ? Do you think teams in the Pro14 would cheat ?

I couldn't care less whether there was one in the Pro14 or not. My starting point was that salary caps have not been successful in European sporting leagues so far. Does that make sense? In any case, if they are in place, they should be enforced. As it stands, there has been no punishment for those who have broken caps

BamBam wrote:To see a great example of the success of salary / spending caps, just look at how much they've stopped Saracens / Man City / PSG from doing what they please

BamBam wrote:No one said there was a specific team who would break the cap, the point was that salary caps have been tried and in reality have failed in more high profile and well run competitions.

The chances of it succeeding in the Pro14 are probably lower just based on its various ownership structures adding increasing complexity

Sorry, I do not know where you are going. If you do not care either way, then why are you trying to start an argument with me ? If there was a cap in the Pro14, I would like to see teams who break it get punished, but I would also like to think that the Pro14 would be different, and all teams would adhere to the rules.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends who would be unhappy at the time LD.
The salary cap in the prem is worthless as teams break it and nothing happens.

It might be worthless, but are you happy there is one ?

Also, I you do not have to answer the question I have been asking, I know it's hard for you, but we all know what teams in the Pro14 would have the potential to break any cap.

Salary Caps have worked in NRL - because they have imposed points deductions and stripped sides of titles. You have to be willing to properly punish rule breakers. So far PRL have applied the fines for low level breaches (ie Quins last season) but seem to have shied away from action an major breaches.

My issue with the current investigation is that the other 11 clubs need to know if what Sarries have done is "legal" if so they can all do it (if they have the funds) or if it is not legal in which case there has to be a meaningful punishment. 

We all suspect however that this will become yet another fudge.

I'm neither happy nor sad LD. It doesn't work. I have answered your question LD. A team is likely to break the rules when they aren't happy.

London. We're still waiting for full details to come out when bath and saracens broke the rules in 2015. They were waiting after the world cup to save pr damage weren't they!

LordDowlais wrote:
we all know what teams in the Pro14 would have the potential to break any cap.

And we get to the crux of the matter. Didn't take long did it

Why didn't you just start with "I want a salary cap at the highest level that the Welsh can spend to, but no higher because that's unfair"

I wasn't starting an argument, I pointed out the failings of salary caps in general. You turned it into a debate on whether or not it would work in the Pro14

No 7&1/2 wrote:London. We're still waiting for full details to come out when bath and saracens broke the rules in 2015. They were waiting after the world cup to save pr damage weren't they!

That has been buried for good. I hope this latest investigation will not meet the same fate, but believe it will.

Yup. Hence my cynicism to caps.

BamBam wrote:And we get to the crux of the matter. Didn't take long did it

And what is that ?

BamBam wrote:Why didn't you just start with "I want a salary cap at the highest level that the Welsh can spend to, but no higher because that's unfair"

Why do you always revert to this ? I have already said I think we need a salary cap because private owners do not have the cash cow that is international rugby to back them.

BamBam wrote:I wasn't starting an argument, I pointed out the failings of salary caps in general. You turned it into a debate on whether or not it would work in the Pro14

No I haven't, I have said I would like a salary cap in the Pro14. You and 7 & 1/2 have said it will not work, I have pointed out it is not rocket science to make it work, but you two keep coming up with teams will always cheat it, but will not back it up with any substance.

If you think teams will cheat it, then explain yourselves. I don't think they will, not in the Pro14 anyway. Not if the salary cap is fair to all teams involved.

Well I created this thread to point out yet again saracens have cheated the cap so not quite true. And in regards to general caps and not specifically to the pro 14 as per LTs warning theres no way to make everyone happy within a cap. Set it to the lowest budget in the league to create a very competitive comp and richer clubs will be moaning and cheating to ensure they get an advantage.
Set it to the highest budget and in suppose no one will try and cheat. That could work.

You very well know that you are aiming at one particular country involved in the Pro14 when you say "we all know which teams in the Pro14 would have the potential to break the cap" and "private owners don't have the cash cow that is international rugby".

You're not very subtle, just come out and say it

I haven't said a Pro14 cap wouldn't work, I've pointed out the failings of the salary cap in the Gallagher / UEFA competitions, as examples of where salary caps have failed previously.

BamBam wrote:You very well know that you are aiming at one particular country involved in the Pro14 when you say "we all know which teams in the Pro14 would have the potential to break the cap" and "private owners don't have the cash cow that is international rugby".

Just want meritocracy that's all, the same as you want in England, after all, that is why you have a salary cap isn't it ?

BamBam wrote:I haven't said a Pro14 cap wouldn't work, I've pointed out the failings of the salary cap in the Gallagher / UEFA competitions, as examples of where salary caps have failed previously.

Good, so we are in an agreement then ? See not hard was it ? A salary cap could work in the Pro14.

A famous Mark Twain quote about arguing comes to mind

I'm retreating back to the safety of the England thread.

The meritocracy in england doesn't exist. The cap hasn't been set so everyone stands a great chance at winning the league. It's also been argued it doesn't allow the top clubs to challenge the top european sides either. A mish mash. And a bit of a mess.

As most of you know all Irish players (and many imports) a linked to a semi-pro team from that province.  If you look at squad annocements it always lists the two.  If a cap was brought into the Pro 14 the semi-pro teams could just pay the players the extra.  How would you bring in a rule to get around that.  The IRFU could also pay ridiculous fees directly to players if they attend one training camp for the national team and then just make sure every provincial player gets called up once to hold tackle bags.

As people have said unless an independent panel can enforce rules and apply meaningful punishment no cap works.  Going off the 2015 problems it was the owners who had the final decision.  That will never work especially when they need all the owners votes to approve certain key decisions.

I should also add that Beneton have increased funding (hence the better squad).  I would hate for them to be put off.  If they spent €10m a year on wages and won the league I wouldn't care.  It would be up to others to work out how to beat them.

Newcastle on roughly the same money finished 4th and 12th.  Cap never changed nor how Newcastle applied it, just luck and teams working other teams out. Once a team stops looking at their own problems to fix but start blaming others they have loss the war.

Trouble at mill....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7474679/Rugby-news-Premiership-clubs-poised-demand-Saracens-kicked-league.html

GeordieFalcon wrote:Trouble at mill....

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7474679/Rugby-news-Premiership-clubs-poised-demand-Saracens-kicked-league.html

Its the Daily Mail so pinch of salt required

In addition to this, the Salary Cap carry on is completely open to grey areas at best, jiggerypokery at worst.

It's the whole tax evasion and tax avoidance issue. One is illegal, one is jsut frowned upon.

A player could be paid £xxx but the club to provide "free" investment advice for players to increase thier "savings". The club could introduce the player to advertisers who pay the player directly to wear thier boots or use thier hair gel.

It's a system that is completly open to loopholes and it comes down to which team has the better loophole finder rather than the "most money"

MLS and I'm sure the Prem team do as well is say they have a Star player on a 3 year contract the first two years are at a decent wage but the 3rd is absolutely huge, its only on the 3rd year that the player is put down as being exempt from the salary cap, it means over the 3 years you can have 3 star players, each with a two normal year and one huge year in pay, rather than one star player on high pay for 3 years.

I don't know about MLS but in the GP the salary is averaged out and only that amount would be excluded from the cap.

Example from the Salary Cap Regulations wrote:

If in Salary Cap Years 2016/17 and 2017/18 the Player’s Salaries were £50,000
and in Salary Cap Year 2018/19, as an Excluded Player, his Salary was £500,000,
the Club would only be entitled to exclude from the Senior Ceiling in Salary Cap
Year 2018/19 the average of those Salaries i.e. £200,000 and £300,000 worth
of Salary would be included in the Senior Ceiling.

It works similarly the other way.

If an Excluded Player’s Salary in Salary Cap Year 2016/2017 (his first Salary Cap
Year at the Club) was £500,000 and in Salary Cap Years 2017/18 and 2018/19
when he was not an Excluded Player his Salaries were £50,000, then in 2017/18
the average of £550,000 worth of Salary (i.e. £275,000) would be included in
the Senior Ceiling as the Player’s Salary and in 2018/19 the average of £600,000
worth of Salary (i.e. £200,000) would be included in the Senior Ceiling as the
Player’s Salary;