Wage cap - Updated with news on Saracens Punishment

by No 7&1/2 Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:30 am

First topic message reminder :

Saracens have made the following statement.
"
Club Statement - Co-investment partnerships between the Saracens owner and players.

Following a newspaper article, the Club would like to make the following statement:

“Firstly, we would like to reiterate that the Club readily complies with Premiership Rugby salary regulations and information relating to remuneration is declared to the salary cap manager. Although co-investment partnerships between owners and players are not a prerequisite of the salary regulations, we disclose these transactions to Premiership Rugby and will continue to do so.

“Currently, 57% of the men’s squad is comprised of home grown talent - the highest in the Premiership. These players not only produce results on the pitch, they help entitle the Club to £1.2m in credits above the baseline salary cap from the RFU and Premiership Rugby. This is a direct result of our significant investment in the Saracens Academy which nurtures and develops Saracens and England players of the future.

“A professional playing career in rugby can be short. We have a responsibility to help our players fulfil their potential, not just on the pitch but off it too. It is why our Academy incorporates an education programme that actively prepares players for life beyond the sport. We are encouraged that many of our senior players are exploring business opportunities away from rugby.”

To me it just seems to be we're doing good work for the England team so don't pry!

by Brendan Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:10 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Are we coming to a point where the cap may be scrapped or raised quite significantly?

It's been raising and additional dispensations added every few years, usually as part of the backdoor agreement to close certain loopholes.

I doubt it will get scrapped any time soon though, its I everyone's interests to keep the Jeff competitive and keep a lid on wage inflation. Theres still more money and interest in the Premiership fixtures than there is europe too.

The next big change will be scrapping relegation.

Exwter have shown they can keep pace with a financially viable model and within the cap. It can be done. Investors are more likely to put money in if it's a stable investment, ring fencing brings that.

Saracens will have to look to shift a few big earners and could end up doing what Togers had to a few years back topping up players wages who are on other teams books to pay put their contracts.

In regard to the ignorant comments by our Irish friend above the Jeff is approx 70% EQ, and that has not changed significantly in its entire history. Theres more english qualified players getting regular top tier club rugby than there is for any of the other Lions nations, elite player numbers isn't a problem for them and never has been. That they still cant find a top class 9 or 15 isn't down to a couple of second choice welsh lads filling up rosters.

Is that as a percentage of total players in the Prem or total in number in the entire league?

The bigger question is how much of the 23 are EQ. Most of the fringe players in the Jeff squads would be EQ but only get to play if injury, suspension or international duty happen. At Sale Faf is starting scrum half and the rest of the scrum halfs there don't really matter even though they are probably all EQ.

They other lions nations squads get much more exposer to high calibre games so can bring though players faster. Sarries are the closest example to a Pro14 mentality team in the Jeff. They have their first 15 and second 15 who play alot of games by rotating a few players each week. They now have alot of second string players that would walk into other Prem teams because they get alot of playing time during the year. It is also why Newcastle and Irish produce alot of young talent because their younger players play more (out of need) so develop faster

by Geordie Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:28 pm

Brendan wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Are we coming to a point where the cap may be scrapped or raised quite significantly?

It's been raising and additional dispensations added every few years, usually as part of the backdoor agreement to close certain loopholes.

I doubt it will get scrapped any time soon though, its I everyone's interests to keep the Jeff competitive and keep a lid on wage inflation. Theres still more money and interest in the Premiership fixtures than there is europe too.

The next big change will be scrapping relegation.

Exwter have shown they can keep pace with a financially viable model and within the cap. It can be done. Investors are more likely to put money in if it's a stable investment, ring fencing brings that.

Saracens will have to look to shift a few big earners and could end up doing what Togers had to a few years back topping up players wages who are on other teams books to pay put their contracts.

In regard to the ignorant comments by our Irish friend above the Jeff is approx 70% EQ, and that has not changed significantly in its entire history. Theres more english qualified players getting regular top tier club rugby than there is for any of the other Lions nations, elite player numbers isn't a problem for them and never has been. That they still cant find a top class 9 or 15 isn't down to a couple of second choice welsh lads filling up rosters.

Is that as a percentage of total players in the Prem or total in number in the entire league?

The bigger question is how much of the 23 are EQ. Most of the fringe players in the Jeff squads would be EQ but only get to play if injury, suspension or international duty happen. At Sale Faf is starting scrum half and the rest of the scrum halfs there don't really matter even though they are probably all EQ.

They other lions nations squads get much more exposer to high calibre games so can bring though players faster. Sarries are the closest example to a Pro14 mentality team in the Jeff. They have their first 15 and second 15 who play alot of games by rotating a few players each week. They now have alot of second string players that would walk into other Prem teams because they get alot of playing time during the year. It is also why Newcastle and Irish produce alot of young talent because their younger players play more (out of need) so develop faster

Not for long... Laugh

Its about to be decimated.

by mikey_dragon Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:27 pm

king_carlos wrote:Significant releases over the summer:

Schalk Burger
Christopher Tolofua
Sione Vailanu
Marcello Bosch

Significant re-signings/signings for this season:

Itoje re-signing - must be at least a £500k increase given his rumoured £750k/pa and previous contract being first one out the academy
Skelton - Re-signed on bigger wage
Singleton - Similar wage to Tolofua you'd imagine
Daly - Bosch was rumoured to be around £250-300k, Daly a lot more

I don't see how the numbers add up even with the co-investments not counting as salary for this season. Itoje might be their first marquee now but that just means Farrell's similarly gigantic wage (circa £700k) will be in the cap instead.

The do have till the end of the season to make cuts if needed to get under the cap.

Isiekwe, Kpoku (apparently already signed with Saints), Malins and Lozowski will be on most clubs radar. Squad players such as Woolstencroft, Ralph Adams-Hale and Matt Gallagher are out of contract too, would add to several clubs squads.

So if Kruis leaves then they're surely going to try and retain Skelton, as they could also lose Kpoku? I imagine Skelton isn't cheap now - his stock has surely risen with Sarries and they might have to also outbid the ARU right? So there might be one or two other cuts needed even with Rhodes and Williams departing. You also seemed to suggest that Carre was a marquee? Do clubs disclose who their marquee's are or is it just guess work?

by king_carlos Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:36 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Significant releases over the summer:

Schalk Burger
Christopher Tolofua
Sione Vailanu
Marcello Bosch

Significant re-signings/signings for this season:

Itoje re-signing - must be at least a £500k increase given his rumoured £750k/pa and previous contract being first one out the academy
Skelton - Re-signed on bigger wage
Singleton - Similar wage to Tolofua you'd imagine
Daly - Bosch was rumoured to be around £250-300k, Daly a lot more

I don't see how the numbers add up even with the co-investments not counting as salary for this season. Itoje might be their first marquee now but that just means Farrell's similarly gigantic wage (circa £700k) will be in the cap instead.

The do have till the end of the season to make cuts if needed to get under the cap.

Isiekwe, Kpoku (apparently already signed with Saints), Malins and Lozowski will be on most clubs radar. Squad players such as Woolstencroft, Ralph Adams-Hale and Matt Gallagher are out of contract too, would add to several clubs squads.

So if Kruis leaves then they're surely going to try and retain Skelton, as they could also lose Kpoku? I imagine Skelton isn't cheap now - his stock has surely risen with Sarries and they might have to also outbid the ARU right? So there might be one or two other cuts needed even with Rhodes and Williams departing. You also seemed to suggest that Carre was a marquee? Do clubs disclose who their marquee's are or is it just guess work?

Most clubs don't reveal who marquee players are. Occasionally it is mentioned by coaches or chairmen during fan forums with some clubs. An understanding of the different eligibility requirements for the two marquee spots, along with some educated guesses about players worth makes assumptions fairly easy at a lot of clubs though.

At Tigers for instance Manu is almost certainly first excluded player with either Taufua or Lavanini (who will be on similar money I'd guess) the second excluded player. Next season Ford may be earning more than Manu so he may become first excluded player and Manu would then fall under the cap.

Skelton re-signed on a 2-year deal last year. ARU made an offer apparently but he chose Sarries.

Kpoku to Saints deal is being reported as done by some and on the rocks by others. Time will tell.

Carre won't be marquee no. Sanjay is almost certainly Sarries second marquee player. If he leaves they will need a replacement as second excluded player. The only player who is eligible to replace Sanjay in that position is probably Carre though who won't be on a anywhere near what Williams is earning.

by Brendan Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:45 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Brendan wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Are we coming to a point where the cap may be scrapped or raised quite significantly?

It's been raising and additional dispensations added every few years, usually as part of the backdoor agreement to close certain loopholes.

I doubt it will get scrapped any time soon though, its I everyone's interests to keep the Jeff competitive and keep a lid on wage inflation. Theres still more money and interest in the Premiership fixtures than there is europe too.

The next big change will be scrapping relegation.

Exwter have shown they can keep pace with a financially viable model and within the cap. It can be done. Investors are more likely to put money in if it's a stable investment, ring fencing brings that.

Saracens will have to look to shift a few big earners and could end up doing what Togers had to a few years back topping up players wages who are on other teams books to pay put their contracts.

In regard to the ignorant comments by our Irish friend above the Jeff is approx 70% EQ, and that has not changed significantly in its entire history. Theres more english qualified players getting regular top tier club rugby than there is for any of the other Lions nations, elite player numbers isn't a problem for them and never has been. That they still cant find a top class 9 or 15 isn't down to a couple of second choice welsh lads filling up rosters.

Is that as a percentage of total players in the Prem or total in number in the entire league?

The bigger question is how much of the 23 are EQ. Most of the fringe players in the Jeff squads would be EQ but only get to play if injury, suspension or international duty happen. At Sale Faf is starting scrum half and the rest of the scrum halfs there don't really matter even though they are probably all EQ.

They other lions nations squads get much more exposer to high calibre games so can bring though players faster. Sarries are the closest example to a Pro14 mentality team in the Jeff. They have their first 15 and second 15 who play alot of games by rotating a few players each week. They now have alot of second string players that would walk into other Prem teams because they get alot of playing time during the year. It is also why Newcastle and Irish produce alot of young talent because their younger players play more (out of need) so develop faster
Not for long...
Its about to be decimated.

They still have a very good second 15. If you got rid of the England internationals their squad would still be quite strong most of which will have developed at Sarries. Because they lose so many to the international window and rest periods they have more openings during the season for their second string. Other Prem teams don't seem to have the same management style of rotation. If they didn't have the results because of less stars in the squad maybe they would play their first team more and second string players less.

by **LondonTiger** Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:00 pm

Brendan,

Most of the clubs are rotating their sides nowadays.

by mikey_dragon Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:08 pm

king_carlos wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Significant releases over the summer:

Schalk Burger
Christopher Tolofua
Sione Vailanu
Marcello Bosch

Significant re-signings/signings for this season:

Itoje re-signing - must be at least a £500k increase given his rumoured £750k/pa and previous contract being first one out the academy
Skelton - Re-signed on bigger wage
Singleton - Similar wage to Tolofua you'd imagine
Daly - Bosch was rumoured to be around £250-300k, Daly a lot more

I don't see how the numbers add up even with the co-investments not counting as salary for this season. Itoje might be their first marquee now but that just means Farrell's similarly gigantic wage (circa £700k) will be in the cap instead.

The do have till the end of the season to make cuts if needed to get under the cap.

Isiekwe, Kpoku (apparently already signed with Saints), Malins and Lozowski will be on most clubs radar. Squad players such as Woolstencroft, Ralph Adams-Hale and Matt Gallagher are out of contract too, would add to several clubs squads.

So if Kruis leaves then they're surely going to try and retain Skelton, as they could also lose Kpoku? I imagine Skelton isn't cheap now - his stock has surely risen with Sarries and they might have to also outbid the ARU right? So there might be one or two other cuts needed even with Rhodes and Williams departing. You also seemed to suggest that Carre was a marquee? Do clubs disclose who their marquee's are or is it just guess work?

Most clubs don't reveal who marquee players are. Occasionally it is mentioned by coaches or chairmen during fan forums with some clubs. An understanding of the different eligibility requirements for the two marquee spots, along with some educated guesses about players worth makes assumptions fairly easy at a lot of clubs though.

At Tigers for instance Manu is almost certainly first excluded player with either Taufua or Lavanini (who will be on similar money I'd guess) the second excluded player. Next season Ford may be earning more than Manu so he may become first excluded player and Manu would then fall under the cap.

Skelton re-signed on a 2-year deal last year. ARU made an offer apparently but he chose Sarries.

Kpoku to Saints deal is being reported as done by some and on the rocks by others. Time will tell.

Carre won't be marquee no. Sanjay is almost certainly Sarries second marquee player. If he leaves they will need a replacement as second excluded player. The only player who is eligible to replace Sanjay in that position is probably Carre though who won't be on a anywhere near what Williams is earning.

Oh so that's what you meant by Carre being a marquee. Why does it have to be Carre, as opposed to say their USA prop forward?

If Itoje is on 700K and isn't a marquee but he's still a regular England player, how much money do the RFU give Sarries for that?

by BamBam Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:14 pm

Might be wrong but I think the money the RFU pay is standard for all players per squad appearance etc and isn't affected by what salary the player is paid by his club

Ie there's no difference between what the RFU would pay for Itoje whether on 700k or 150k

by Pot Hale Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:20 pm

BamBam wrote:Might be wrong but I think the money the RFU pay is standard for all players per squad appearance etc and isn't affected by what salary the player is paid by his club

Ie there's no difference between what the RFU would pay for Itoje whether on 700k or 150k

Correct. Salary is irrelevant.

by mikey_dragon Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:34 pm

So it's just a fee per England player then?

by king_carlos Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:30 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:So it's just a fee per England player then?

Clubs get a fixed credit of £40k for each EPS player. Plus an extra credit of £5k credit for each club game missed due to international duty by an EPS player. Clubs get a £10k credit for each club game missed by players who aren't in the EPS.

Maximum credits a club can claim per player is £80k.

by king_carlos Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:34 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Significant releases over the summer:

Schalk Burger
Christopher Tolofua
Sione Vailanu
Marcello Bosch

Significant re-signings/signings for this season:

Itoje re-signing - must be at least a £500k increase given his rumoured £750k/pa and previous contract being first one out the academy
Skelton - Re-signed on bigger wage
Singleton - Similar wage to Tolofua you'd imagine
Daly - Bosch was rumoured to be around £250-300k, Daly a lot more

I don't see how the numbers add up even with the co-investments not counting as salary for this season. Itoje might be their first marquee now but that just means Farrell's similarly gigantic wage (circa £700k) will be in the cap instead.

The do have till the end of the season to make cuts if needed to get under the cap.

Isiekwe, Kpoku (apparently already signed with Saints), Malins and Lozowski will be on most clubs radar. Squad players such as Woolstencroft, Ralph Adams-Hale and Matt Gallagher are out of contract too, would add to several clubs squads.

So if Kruis leaves then they're surely going to try and retain Skelton, as they could also lose Kpoku? I imagine Skelton isn't cheap now - his stock has surely risen with Sarries and they might have to also outbid the ARU right? So there might be one or two other cuts needed even with Rhodes and Williams departing. You also seemed to suggest that Carre was a marquee? Do clubs disclose who their marquee's are or is it just guess work?

Most clubs don't reveal who marquee players are. Occasionally it is mentioned by coaches or chairmen during fan forums with some clubs. An understanding of the different eligibility requirements for the two marquee spots, along with some educated guesses about players worth makes assumptions fairly easy at a lot of clubs though.

At Tigers for instance Manu is almost certainly first excluded player with either Taufua or Lavanini (who will be on similar money I'd guess) the second excluded player. Next season Ford may be earning more than Manu so he may become first excluded player and Manu would then fall under the cap.

Skelton re-signed on a 2-year deal last year. ARU made an offer apparently but he chose Sarries.

Kpoku to Saints deal is being reported as done by some and on the rocks by others. Time will tell.

Carre won't be marquee no. Sanjay is almost certainly Sarries second marquee player. If he leaves they will need a replacement as second excluded player. The only player who is eligible to replace Sanjay in that position is probably Carre though who won't be on a anywhere near what Williams is earning.

Oh so that's what you meant by Carre being a marquee. Why does it have to be Carre, as opposed to say their USA prop forward?

If Itoje is on 700K and isn't a marquee but he's still a regular England player, how much money do the RFU give Sarries for that?

Lamositele has been at Sarries since 2015. So he could be named first excluded player (needs to have been at the club in questions for at least 2 seasons before being named first excluded) but wouldn't be as Farrell or Itoje for instance are earning much more.

He couldn't be named second excluded player as they either need to:

1. Have not been a player of any Premiership team in the previous season (hence Carre qualifies)
2. Have been named second excluded player the previous season (hence Sanjay probably qualifies)

by king_carlos Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:33 am

Owen Slot in the Times wrote:Saracens were very nearly handed a 70-point deduction for breaking the salary cap, which would almost certainly have relegated them. They were saved by Premiership Rugby’s regulations allowing for discretion in cases where such a harsh penalty may not be “in the spirit” of the competition.

The club are meanwhile bowing to pressure to comply with the salary-cap regulations and, after the news that Liam Williams is likely never to play for them again, a number of other players have been approached about leaving by the end of the month, and George Kruis, the England and British & Irish Lions lock, may move at the end of the season.

Saracens were handed a 35-point deduction for breaching salary-cap rules, which is the maximum sanction that can be applied for breaking the cap in a single season. However, the club were found to be in breach in three consecutive seasons and in two of those they were so far over the cap that they triggered the maximum 35-point penalty.

The judgment was reached by an independent panel appointed by the Sports Resolutions dispute-resolution service and led by Lord Dyson. The panel agreed that for two seasons — 2016-17 and 2018-19 — the club were more than £650,000 over the cap, which is set at £7 million. That figure is the threshold that triggers a 35-point deduction. The panel considered that, by adding the two 35-point penalties together, Saracens should be deducted 70 points.

However, regulation 14.2 of the Premiership Rugby rules allows a disciplinary panel to exercise discretion in cases where it deems that a penalty “would lead to the club being unfairly punished . . . or would lead to a result not within the spirit and underlying purpose of the regulations”.

The panel therefore decided that rather than being added together, the two 35-point penalties should run concurrently.

Saracens have been put under huge pressure by the other Gallagher Premiership clubs to fall into line with regards to being under the cap this season. They have also been in regular discussion with Premiership Rugby, the competition governing body, which is watching closely to see that they do so.

In an attempt to bring down the total spend on wages this season, Williams, the Wales and British & Irish Lions full back, will probably leave the club by the end of the month. It is highly unusual for a player to switch clubs mid-season.

Saracens are also in talks with Calum Clark, Michael Rhodes and Juan Figallo, who could also leave the club before the end of the season. It looks likely that one or more of those three will be off the club’s books by January 31.

Figallo and Rhodes are 31 and 32 respectively, they are injured and unlikely to be fit again in the short-term and therefore unlikely to be a huge loss to the club this season. They are also both out of contract at the end of the campaign. They have been approached because they may be partial to an offer of an early exit.

Clark has been a bit-part player ever since he arrived at Allianz Park two and a half seasons ago. He is 30 and would probably be less enthusiastic about a deal to come off the books. A loan deal with another club would no doubt be preferable to him but Saracens have received no such approach.

However, the possible exit of Kruis strikes a different note altogether. For the past decade, Saracens have managed to hold on to their best players. Kruis is 29 years old so there is at least one more contract left in him. Saracens have a rising star in the second row in 20-year-old Joel Kpoku. In the past, Saracens would have looked to keep Kpoku and Kruis. Now they are more likely to make a decision on which one to keep and the younger player on a smaller salary would be the player more likely to stay.

A spokesman for Premiership Rugby said: “The regulations, as agreed by all clubs, require an independent disciplinary panel to determine an appropriate and proportionate sanction in the event of a breach. Premiership Rugby fully respects the decision of the panel in the Saracens case and we have shared the judgment with other clubs.”

by Brendan Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:33 pm

So they could of effectively relegated Sarries by points deduction but didn't. Wonder what Tigers, Wasps, Irish and Exeter bosses think about that

by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:38 pm

I thought Kpoku had already agreed to sign for Northampton or have I got that wrong?

by Brendan Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:39 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Brendan,

Most of the clubs are rotating their sides nowadays.

Yes but is it the Bath style of giving the first 23 a rest week and sacrifice the game like Bath or a few players each week for the whole season. I know clubs rotate during the internationals but they are forced rather than managed. For tigers losing half the team for the 6N you don't won't the understudies coming in to get beat badly or be cannon fodder

by formerly known as Sam Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I thought Kpoku had already agreed to sign for Northampton or have I got that wrong?

You can't sign players officially before a certain point (normally 01/01 but there are different rules for younger players). There may have been a verbal agreement though whether that will now change with Kruis potentially off I don't know.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:07 pm

Cool. Ta Sam.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:34 am

Given that locks are highly valued, according to recent esportif salary data, and England have a good stock, I fully expected some of those ignored by Jones to take offers in France. Hadn't expected a leading contender like Kruis to go to Japan.

Then again, Kruis did see his career derailed by injury, so he would be conscious of how easily it can all fall apart. Japan would also offer a much more forgiving playing schedule than anything in the Top 14.

by carpet baboon Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:36 am

So it went .
We did nothing wrong and will fight this all the way
It was an oversight but we still did nothing wrong and will fight it
Ok we may have done something but it still wasn't wrong
Ok sorry we wont fight it let's all move on now
Chairman steps down
We may have to trim the squad a tiny bit to get under the cap for this year
Willing to let Williams go early
Looking at not playing several players at all this year, willing to let them go mid season, to get under the cap.

Will they ever release the full findings?
And are there any other clubs currently panicked about next season.

by formerly known as Sam Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:08 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Given that locks are highly valued, according to recent esportif salary data, and England have a good stock, I fully expected some of those ignored by Jones to take offers in France. Hadn't expected a leading contender like Kruis to go to Japan.

Then again, Kruis did see his career derailed by injury, so he would be conscious of how easily it can all fall apart. Japan would also offer a much more forgiving playing schedule than anything in the Top 14.

He might also fancy a pop at Super Rugby. It's still quite popular for players to combine the two. Japan's season is quite a bit shorter so should help him have a longer career if he wants it.

by **LondonTiger** Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:38 am

carpet baboon wrote: Will they ever release the full findings?
And are there any other clubs currently panicked about next season.

No and yes.

by **BigGee** Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:10 pm

Things going from bad to worse for Sarries and it seems they are still above salary cap for the 4th year in a row. They are now looking at automatic relegation apparently.

Its all kicking off in North London!

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/saracens-stand-on-brink-of-automatic-relegation-as-nightmare-season-set-to-continue

by mikey_dragon Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:19 pm

I think the punishment already dished out is enough. How about using the resources to investigate breaches from other teams like Bath?

by **BigGee** Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:27 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I think the punishment already dished out is enough. How about using the resources to investigate breaches from other teams like Bath?

Well no proof that Bath have done it for a start and if they have, it certainly has not bought them any success, not something that can be said about Sarries!

The punishment itself may not have any great effect in that they won't be relegated and could likely still win the Champs Cup.

by mikey_dragon Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:31 pm

BigGee wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I think the punishment already dished out is enough. How about using the resources to investigate breaches from other teams like Bath?

Well no proof that Bath have done it for a start and if they have, it certainly has not bought them any success, not something that can be said about Sarries!

The punishment itself may not have any great effect in that they won't be relegated and could likely still win the Champs Cup.

Well weren't they suspected of it, like Sarries? Not sure if that would be enough but I don't really know how Sarries slipped up for them to be investigated either.

That was the agreed punishment, I even thought that was too steep at the time. Fair play if they don't get relegated with the points deduction.

Who else could they cut to avoid being over the cap?

by **BigGee** Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:39 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
BigGee wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I think the punishment already dished out is enough. How about using the resources to investigate breaches from other teams like Bath?

Well no proof that Bath have done it for a start and if they have, it certainly has not bought them any success, not something that can be said about Sarries!

The punishment itself may not have any great effect in that they won't be relegated and could likely still win the Champs Cup.

Well weren't they suspected of it, like Sarries? Not sure if that would be enough but I don't really know how Sarries slipped up for them to be investigated either.

That was the agreed punishment, I even thought that was too steep at the time. Fair play if they don't get relegated with the points deduction.

Who else could they cut to avoid being over the cap?

Thing is, other than Liam Williams, they have not cut anyone this year and that was only because he was injured and he had an easy out. Their only other options to cut the wage bill would be getting players to agree wage cuts, which they may have not been so keen on!

by mikey_dragon Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:52 pm

Michael Rhodes was another one that I seen mentioned. I'm not sure if it would make a difference now but Dragons are happy to help out Sarries by taking Rhys Carre and Nick Tompkins. Send them now and we'll deal with the paperwork later...

by **BigGee** Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:00 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Michael Rhodes was another one that I seen mentioned. I'm not sure if it would make a difference now but Dragons are happy to help out Sarries by taking Rhys Carre and Nick Tompkins. Send them now and we'll deal with the paperwork later...

To late, they have played this year and so they are included already. LW did not count as he has not played for them this season.

by **BigGee** Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:06 pm

This problem has been a lot of years in the making and it proving very difficult to unpick in a matter of months.

Does not sound like a lot of sympathy for them out there. The Glasgow Warriors forum, of which I am no great fan, is in uproar, they have knocked us out of the euros twice in that timeframe and yes I know there are no caps in Europe, but they would not have that euro squad if they did not use it for the league as well.

Who knows how we would have gotten on against them if they had stayed within the rules, we will never know!

The consequences of this go far and wide and effect a lot of clubs, in and out of their league.

by tigertattie Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:42 pm

It’s completely right that sarries are looking at another further punishment.

They were pulled up and punished for breaking the rules and then this year they’ve done nothing to change their behaviour so they are allegedly in breech again.

If you do the same crime a second time, the punishment is increased.

by king_carlos Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:18 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=g4_p5bZ4DM8&app=desktop

That's the most direct questions I've seen players asked on the cap issues.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:55 pm

It was only a short time ago that "Move on, move on" was becoming a common refrain among some pundits. It looked like Saracens would just go on as usual, with the a few changes like Liam Williams leaving.

Since Griffiths came in, it's become much clearer that Saracens will have to completely rethink their squad structure, which tends to suggest the salary cap breach was much more than a minor technical offence. That interview with Kruis and Day illustrates the difference quite starkly.

by king_carlos Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:01 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51143657

Chris Jones - BBC wrote:The contract season has already run for seven months - since the start of July - with all the money paid to players who have featured for the club during that period counting towards the cap.

Furthermore, any money paid as compensation to players for cutting short contracts would also be included in the wage bill.

Those two paragraphs sum up the issue pretty succinctly.

As the co-investments were apparently only considered salary in the seasons when Wray paid money in this would suggest that the overspend was down to more than just those deals.

by mikey_dragon Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:08 am

That was a strange interview, and with an annoying Irish guy. Pretty awkward that a player and an ex player go in and answer questions about it when both are just trying to get on with their lives - very unfortunate for them.

For arguments sake let say the price of the breach is 3-4 players, and probably NEQ ones. Would Sarries still have won all that silverware? Probably.

by king_carlos Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:23 am

mikey_dragon wrote:That was a strange interview, and with an annoying Irish guy. Pretty awkward that a player and an ex player go in and answer questions about it when both are just trying to get on with their lives - very unfortunate for them.

For arguments sake let say the price of the breach is 3-4 players, and probably NEQ ones. Would Sarries still have won all that silverware? Probably.

Breaking the cap provides depth, hence consistency. Take second row for instance. Could Sarries have won knockout games without Skelton or Jim Hamilton? Quite possible yes. The questions still then remain over all the regular season games when Sarries can be missing Itoje and Kruis but still play an international lock pairing.

2 internationals at loosehead
2 at hooker (technically 3 but Gray is a one cap wonder)
3 at tighthead
4 at second row

That's the tight 5 alone. With everyone fit they can field a Lions back three whilst dropping last seasons European player of the season.

Then there's the question of how signing and retaining players by playing from a different rule book has affected those who followed the regulations. How much stronger could Wasps hypothetically have been if they'd been able to re-sign Billy Vunipola when Sarries couldn't afford him in the cap? Or Lozowski at Wasps for that matter? Or Daly at Wasps...? Worcester losing their starting hooker in Singleton? Might Bristol have even re-signed Mako when his worth exploded?

by **Rugby Fan** Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:01 am

mikey_dragon wrote:That was a strange interview, and with an annoying Irish guy. Pretty awkward that a player and an ex player go in and answer questions about it when both are just trying to get on with their lives - very unfortunate for them.

The whole interview was 40 minutes long, and they spent most of it promoting their CBD business, so I think a few minutes being grilled about Saracens and the salary cap was a small price to pay for some commercial exposure in Ireland.

by Cyril Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:13 am

Are Glasgow really considering appealing getting knocked out by Sarries? Shades of the World Cup and the SRU’s stance re. the cancelled games. Ouch.

by yappysnap Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:15 am

king_carlos wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:That was a strange interview, and with an annoying Irish guy. Pretty awkward that a player and an ex player go in and answer questions about it when both are just trying to get on with their lives - very unfortunate for them.

For arguments sake let say the price of the breach is 3-4 players, and probably NEQ ones. Would Sarries still have won all that silverware? Probably.

Breaking the cap provides depth, hence consistency. Take second row for instance. Could Sarries have won knockout games without Skelton or Jim Hamilton? Quite possible yes. The questions still then remain over all the regular season games when Sarries can be missing Itoje and Kruis but still play an international lock pairing.

2 internationals at loosehead
2 at hooker (technically 3 but Gray is a one cap wonder)
3 at tighthead
4 at second row

That's the tight 5 alone. With everyone fit they can field a Lions back three whilst dropping last seasons European player of the season.

Then there's the question of how signing and retaining players by playing from a different rule book has affected those who followed the regulations. How much stronger could Wasps hypothetically have been if they'd been able to re-sign Billy Vunipola when Sarries couldn't afford him in the cap? Or Lozowski at Wasps for that matter? Or Daly at Wasps...? Worcester losing their starting hooker in Singleton? Might Bristol have even re-signed Mako when his worth exploded?

This.

Add to it they'll be pushing up wages across the league as clubs try to compete and they will have had/are having a huge effect. How many clubs spend more on big name players to either fight Sarries off in the transfer market, or to compete on the pitch with them?

by TightHEAD Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:35 am

I thinking Sarries will do alright in the championship next season. Bye bye Sarries.

by tigertattie Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:05 am

Cyril wrote:Are Glasgow really considering appealing getting knocked out by Sarries? Shades of the World Cup and the SRU’s stance re. the cancelled games. Ouch.

Where are you getting this from?

Source?

The simple fact that there is no cap in Europe would make me think this claim of an appeal is as old Trump would say, fake news!

by Irish Londoner Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:10 am

Is today a good day to start discussions on ring fencing the Premiership ? Very Happy

by **Rugby Fan** Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:20 am

Saracens players said to be meeting at 8:30am today.

Wonder if Daly had a relegation clause in his contract?

by **BigGee** Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:26 am

Thats just what they needed prior to their match v Racing on sunday!

by Rinsure Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:35 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Saracens players said to be meeting at 8:30am today.

Wonder if Daly had a relegation clause in his contract?

As the big signing over the Summer, I do wonder if Daly is having any regrets about his choices... perhaps those training facilities at Wasps weren't so bad, after all? Lol.

I've got very little sympathy. They broke the rules, repeatedly and consistently, and displayed arrogance and contempt in the process. There still hasn't been any contrition, just a grudging acknowledgement they've been busted.

I read some commentators defending them in various ways, saying how good they've been for the standard of rugby in the Prem in general, and have raised standards across the league, as well as being a dominant force in Europe.

I could maybe agree with this, if it hadn't been the result of endemic, ongoing cheating. Everything they've done, they've done with an advantage over every other team.

If you could go back and invalidate every Sarries result over the last three years, how would that have affected the championship? Relegation? European and / or playoff qualification? Would player wages be where they are if Sarries hadn't been artificially inflating the market by paying over the odds across the board?

Sorry, turned into a bit of a rant off the back of a tweet I saw earlier defending them.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:41 am

Brendan Venter blaming other clubs having "agendas".

https://twitter.com/BrendanVenter

by carpet baboon Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:02 am

I wonder if BT sport's will now stop defending them

by **BigGee** Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:14 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Brendan Venter blaming other clubs having "agendas".

https://twitter.com/BrendanVenter

Very unreasonable agendas like level playing fields!

by TightHEAD Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:26 am

carpet baboon wrote:I wonder if BT sport's will now stop defending them

and BBC rugby podcast.

by No 7&1/2 Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:37 am

There are current players who defend them. I'm sure it was Genge who was saying the cap doesn't overly affect the top end players but more the youngsters and guys on the edges. He does speak alot of sense on players getting their fair share.

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