Wage cap - Updated with news on Saracens Punishment

by No 7&1/2 Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:30 pm

First topic message reminder :

Saracens have made the following statement.
"
Club Statement - Co-investment partnerships between the Saracens owner and players.

Following a newspaper article, the Club would like to make the following statement:

“Firstly, we would like to reiterate that the Club readily complies with Premiership Rugby salary regulations and information relating to remuneration is declared to the salary cap manager. Although co-investment partnerships between owners and players are not a prerequisite of the salary regulations, we disclose these transactions to Premiership Rugby and will continue to do so.

“Currently, 57% of the men’s squad is comprised of home grown talent - the highest in the Premiership. These players not only produce results on the pitch, they help entitle the Club to £1.2m in credits above the baseline salary cap from the RFU and Premiership Rugby. This is a direct result of our significant investment in the Saracens Academy which nurtures and develops Saracens and England players of the future.

“A professional playing career in rugby can be short. We have a responsibility to help our players fulfil their potential, not just on the pitch but off it too. It is why our Academy incorporates an education programme that actively prepares players for life beyond the sport. We are encouraged that many of our senior players are exploring business opportunities away from rugby.”

To me it just seems to be we're doing good work for the England team so don't pry!

by TJ Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:46 am

I think there will be a lot of fallout to come yet from this. Exeter have the most to be aggrieved about - should they be given those championships where Saracens cheated them? do you get money for winning? A good case I would say.

Glasgow were knocked out of europe by Saracens - now while there is no salary cap in Europe there is no doubt that spending too much in the league meant Sarries had better players and better rested players for Europe thus it gave them un unfair advantage

How about the RFU? they allowed this to go on for years - we all knew Sarries were cheating but nothing was done for years. surely some sanctions merited

by tigertattie Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:40 am

Forget the argument if Exeter can be given the title from last year, if I were an Exeter player I’d not want it.

Winning something on a technicality is pointless

Yes you can argue they were cheated. Yes they are right to be angry. But go win the title this year.

by nathan Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:28 pm

Exrter have already come out and said its a pointless argument as they can't say anything will 100% happen.
Might if been a different top 4 if you take the sarries games out of the whole season (of course Exeter would still be there)

by nathan Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:29 pm

On and TJ, the Rfu have nothing to do with it
. It's PRL that run the league.

by **Rugby Fan** Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:39 pm

The good news, is that this is playing out a bit more logically now. It was hard to understand how Saracens could be in clear breach of the cap but still able to field much the same squad. For a few weeks there, it did seem as if the matter might have been a minor technicality.

Now, it seems evident that Saracens can't keep everyone without players taking pay cuts. The bad news is that this whole episode is playing over several weeks, when it surely would have been better to have decided on breach and punishment at one time.

The Dyson investigation found three seasons of breaches. As the scale of those breaches was also known, it was obvious Saracens would also be over the cap this season too. Premiership Rugby needed to spell out clearly how this would play out. Fans needed to know that 35 point deduction was the end of the matter, or else that an investigation was ongoing, and Saracens had to choose a course of action (eg keep the squad together this season, and accept relegation). Publishing the report would have helped make this a lot clearer.

Instead, it looks more like Saracens are getting a second kicking because they haven't responded in the right way. We wouldn't be in this position if the report had been published. Saracens would not have been able to dissemble, and the question of what happens about this season would have instantly come up, instead of rumbling on unnececessarily for weeks on end.

Good news, then, that the salary cap is finally being taken seriously, instead of being an open joke. Terrible news, that Premiership Riugby seems to have made it up as it has gone along in the way they have handled this matter.

by Recwatcher16 Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:34 pm

There is going to be several unintended consequences following this PRL episode. England and European cup competitions could come off worse.

England for obvious reasons with a number of key players being in the championship, because it wouldn't surprise if most of these if not all, vote to stay with the club. Farrell has already allegedly stated as much, as many have come through the academy or been there virtually their whole career. It could either mean they are well rested during next season or become off the pace - at this stage difficult to tell which.

For Europe it will become clear what the priority will be for clubs and that will be the league. The Saracens squad had to operate a squad capable of two competitions both in terms of numbers and more telling in terms of test experience, which has been hard earned but ultimately becomes expensive.
What other club will try to achieve both ? Exeter are effective in the league with their style over 9 months but knockout cup competition is different and you need test players in key positions, which Exeter don't have.

The French teams operate on bigger budgets and no-one knows what the 60+ players at Leinster costs. The knock on effects from all this are going to be significant for English clubs and the RFU.

by maestegmafia Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:51 pm

You have to wonder whether a wage cap in the European cups wouldn’t be a sensible idea and probably increase the competition far more.

by TJ Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:25 pm

People ( mainly i the press) seem to be equating english club success with the health of the game.

This IMO is good for the health of the game. It will reduce the absurd inflationary pressure on players wages that prices out the pro 14 clubs and the english and french clubs without sugar daddies of the top players. It will reduce the pressures on welsh teams to pay more than they can afford to keep the stars at home, It will reduce the need for the scots to always lose their best players as they cannot afford to match the wages of the rich clubs

It will also show that no team is above the rules and hopefully make others clean up their act.

One of the things destroying rugby is the way that some teams run huge losses every year with rich blokes with big egos pumping millions in with no chance of ever getting that money back. This so distorts things that it damages the game.

Of course it is possible to be competative in Europe and stick withing the cap.

Finally Leinster - while we do not have total transparency on wages I would be pretty sure from what is public knowledge that leinster would be under the English cap - certainly spending less than Sarries did.

by carpet baboon Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:44 pm

Finally Leinster - while we do not have total transparency on wages I would be pretty sure from what is public knowledge that leinster would be under the English cap - certainly spending less than Sarries did.

It still amazes me that the argument of the Irish outspending the English comes up all the time no matter how many times it is proven to be false.

by carpet baboon Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:47 pm

I also find the strange attitude that punishing Saracens will have a huge effect on "all of rugby" as a bit arrogant.

by carpet baboon Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:53 pm

And to be clear, I'm very Impressed with what Saracens have done in the community, some of the stuff they are doing with schools and grassroots is fantastic and should rightly be applauded.

by king_carlos Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:37 pm

maestegmafia wrote:You have to wonder whether a wage cap in the European cups wouldn’t be a sensible idea and probably increase the competition far more.

The main reason isn't level playing field but financial longevity. It's easy to forget how young the game is professionally and how fragile it is financially. We don't want another Richmond, London Welsh or London Scottish situation. It's just horrible to see clubs go that way by chasing success solely through unsustainable short term investment.

A close friend who's a ardent Sarries fan made the point yesterday that it will be enormously ironic if Wray's open resentment of the cap drives him to withdraw funding longer term, given what that would do to Sarries financial viability.

Hopefully it doesn't come to that as whilst I think Wray has dealt with this fiasco abjectly he has done an incredible amount of good for the game as well. The Prem needs 'sugar daddies' but it also needs the cap to prevent wage inflation and bankruptcy. Thankfully whilst Nigel Wray has stepped away his daughter Lucy is still on the board.

by EnglishReign Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:53 pm

Now we just need Bath to be found out and world order will be restored.

by TJ Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:05 pm

The deficit funding provided by the "sugar daddies" is what is distorting the game. all clubs should run balanced books and any "investments" must be done on a commercial basis.

Its the clubs running huge deficits that distort the market and its unsustainable.

by Cyril Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:10 pm

Pro 14 ‘clubs’ being bailed out by their unions is the same thing.

by TJ Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:23 pm

No it is not at all. they still live within there means. IE they have a fixed income, they cannot run deficits. glasgow have 7 million a year (ish) for all costs. Thats it.

All clubs should live within their income. I believe exeter do. all clubs no matter what league or competition have the same sources of income. If one club is runnning a deficit of millions per year from gifts then its unfair on those who live within their means.

To run massive deficits year after year is unsustainable

by EnglishReign Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:46 pm

What annoys me is all of these clubs had a say on whether or not Altrad could invest in Gloucester and had the audacity to vote against it whilst they won trophies unfairly with their own dodgy setup.

It was blindingly obvious what was going on at Sarries and they’ve essentially ruined years of domestic English rugby competition.

by No 7&1/2 Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:39 am

1 of the sources of income though is investment from owners. No issue with that.

by nathan Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:02 am

For me, sugar daddies don't bother me so long as the money is invested in the club to help make it sustainable, such as hotels etc.

What I'm certainly against is using that money for the playing squad.

by TJ Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:21 am

Its not an investment if you get no interest and never get your money back. If a bank would not lend on the same terms its not an investment. Will Wray ever get back the millions he put into Sarries?

An investment is not income.

by No 7&1/2 Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:26 am

A donation to provide themselves with happiness as a hobby then. Dont mind it. Welcome it. Well done to them. I dont think there should be a limit to what a guy or girl spends on their team. We all do it to a greater or lesser extent. In this case however they've broken the rules and cheated. That I do have an issue with.

by quinsforever Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:59 am

I thought Saracens might well get relegated back when this kicked off

I wouldnt be at all surprised to see most of the big players staying at Sarries in the Championship. Daly, Williams and other recent additions will i am sure leave, but their hardcore academy players could very well stay.

After all, in the Championship presumably Saracens can take their time to get their salaries down as there is no salary cap in the Championship!

Eddie Jones might well enjoy having all the Saracens players and rising stars injury free, well rested, and available for England next season.

another interesting qn - if Saracens now give up on the league and manage to win the Euro Champions Cup, would that give them entry to next years? Like when Liverpool qualified after winning the football version even when they wouldnt have qualified from the league?

by No 7&1/2 Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:04 am

Apparently it's still down to the league how they give out their places. Theoretically they could win and be denied a chance to defend.

by quinsforever Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:05 am

found answer to my qn re Champs Cup...

"If I was a player in that situation - particularly a senior international - do I actually accept that this would be helpful to prolong my career?" Hannah Bowe from player recruitment industry experts Esportif Intelligence told BBC Sport.

"Play a couple of games in the Championship along with an international season, and be in a position in which you are fit and well a bit longer.

"Eddie Jones may take the view he has access to train these guys for a season, and England benefit. I would be surprised if Eddie Jones is not considering the benefit to English rugby."

Q&A: What is going on with Saracens?
Saracens would not be eligible to play in next season's Champions Cup, however, if they are relegated from the Premiership - even if they won Europe's top competition this season.

Winning the Champions Cup usually guarantees qualification for the tournament the following year.

Holders Saracens can qualify for the knockout stages with a win over Racing 92 on Sunday.

However, under the current regulations, in order to participate in European club rugby tournaments you must be a member of the Premiership, the Pro 14 or the French Top 14 in that season.

The only exception is the two clubs from emerging nations that participate in the Challenge Cup."

by **Rugby Fan** Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:18 am

TJ wrote:...If a bank would not lend on the same terms its not an investment....

Are you not confusing a loan with an investment? A commercial bank making a loan, looks at the income stream which can repay the loan, and the value of collateral put up in the event of non-payment. An investment is where you take an ownership stake in a venture, with the prospect of that venture generating income and/or increasing in asset value.

by maestegmafia Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:33 am

king_carlos wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:You have to wonder whether a wage cap in the European cups wouldn’t be a sensible idea and probably increase the competition far more.

The main reason isn't level playing field but financial longevity. It's easy to forget how young the game is professionally and how fragile it is financially. We don't want another Richmond, London Welsh or London Scottish situation. It's just horrible to see clubs go that way by chasing success solely through unsustainable short term investment.

A close friend who's a ardent Sarries fan made the point yesterday that it will be enormously ironic if Wray's open resentment of the cap drives him to withdraw funding longer term, given what that would do to Sarries financial viability.

Hopefully it doesn't come to that as whilst I think Wray has dealt with this fiasco abjectly he has done an incredible amount of good for the game as well. The Prem needs 'sugar daddies' but it also needs the cap to prevent wage inflation and bankruptcy. Thankfully whilst Nigel Wray has stepped away his daughter Lucy is still on the board.

I agree the sport is still in its professional infancy and treating rugby like soccer is madness.

Sustainability as a sport is the key to a benevolent future

How we achieve that is a critical discussion and over the years I have read, thought of or witnessed many concepts that either don’t take heart or wouldn’t work for many different permutations.

Throwing money at the sport does not solve problems. Treating rugby like soccer is not going to solve issues.

by king_carlos Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:01 am

maestegmafia wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:You have to wonder whether a wage cap in the European cups wouldn’t be a sensible idea and probably increase the competition far more.

The main reason isn't level playing field but financial longevity. It's easy to forget how young the game is professionally and how fragile it is financially. We don't want another Richmond, London Welsh or London Scottish situation. It's just horrible to see clubs go that way by chasing success solely through unsustainable short term investment.

A close friend who's a ardent Sarries fan made the point yesterday that it will be enormously ironic if Wray's open resentment of the cap drives him to withdraw funding longer term, given what that would do to Sarries financial viability.

Hopefully it doesn't come to that as whilst I think Wray has dealt with this fiasco abjectly he has done an incredible amount of good for the game as well. The Prem needs 'sugar daddies' but it also needs the cap to prevent wage inflation and bankruptcy. Thankfully whilst Nigel Wray has stepped away his daughter Lucy is still on the board.

I agree the sport is still in its professional infancy and treating rugby like soccer is madness.

Sustainability as a sport is the key to a benevolent future

How we achieve that is a critical discussion and over the years I have read, thought of or witnessed many concepts that either don’t take heart or wouldn’t work for many different permutations.

Throwing money at the sport does not solve problems. Treating rugby like soccer is not going to solve issues.

Agree with all that maes.

The sport making concerted efforts to expand into Japanese and American markets are a clear indication of that need for new revenue streams.

by king_carlos Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:09 am

quinsforever wrote:I thought Saracens might well get relegated back when this kicked off

I wouldnt be at all surprised to see most of the big players staying at Sarries in the Championship. Daly, Williams and other recent additions will i am sure leave, but their hardcore academy players could very well stay.

After all, in the Championship presumably Saracens can take their time to get their salaries down as there is no salary cap in the Championship!

Eddie Jones might well enjoy having all the Saracens players and rising stars injury free, well rested, and available for England next season.

another interesting qn - if Saracens now give up on the league and manage to win the Euro Champions Cup, would that give them entry to next years? Like when Liverpool qualified after winning the football version even when they wouldnt have qualified from the league?

Farrell has stated he's staying in a speech to players after their briefing according to some reports.

The Vunipola brothers will be in difficult positions. Both came through other academies but have achieved a huge amount through Sarries and improved a lot in their systems. They also both play in very competitive positions with regards to the Lions.

Similar for Itoje and Kruis with regards to extremely competitive positions for England and the Lions. Rumours that Griffiths is trying to get Kpoku out his Saints deal in return for Kruis to cut cap.

I do wonder if some Sarries players won't have release clauses. They won't have contemplated being relegated from a performances perspective. The widespread refusal to admit wrong doing suggests they didn't see this coming either.

I've heard several big Sarries players deal directly with the club rather than through an agent as well. It apparently a favourite tactic of theirs during contract re-negotiations as it limits the number of people who know how much their players are actually earning...

by Kingshu Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:58 am

Saracens to move to Pro 14 for a year?
Prem don't have Scarcens for a year.
Pro 14 get publicly in England for a year.
Scarcens get a year to get back under wage, while England players get game time against top class teams.
Have a route to get back into Hcup a year earlier than by going to championship.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.rugbypass.com/news/the-radical-saracens-move-which-would-change-the-face-of-english-rugby-forever-pro14/

by mikey_dragon Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:11 am

I really can’t see that happening. Can you?

by mikey_dragon Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:34 am

Well now it's confirmed, Saracens are relegated at the end of this season.

by TJ Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:50 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
TJ wrote:...If a bank would not lend on the same terms its not an investment....
Are you not confusing a loan with an investment? A commercial bank making a loan, looks at the income stream which can repay the loan, and the value of collateral put up in the event of non-payment. An investment is where you take an ownership stake in a venture, with the prospect of that venture generating income and/or increasing in asset value.

Well maybe - sometimes these "investments" are said to be loans. Whatever they are said to be there is no "prospect of that venture generating income and/or increasing in asset value" in the way a commercial investment ever would. so perhaps rather than saying "If a bank" as I did, say " If a venture capitalist with no interest in rugby"

Do you really think there is any prospect of Wray every getting any sort of realistic return on that money he has put into the club?

by carpet baboon Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:03 am

Kingshu wrote:Saracens to move to Pro 14 for a year?
Prem don't have Scarcens for a year.
Pro 14 get publicly in England for a year.
Scarcens get a year to get back under wage, while England players get game time against top class teams.
Have a route to get back into Hcup a year earlier than by going to championship.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.rugbypass.com/news/the-radical-saracens-move-which-would-change-the-face-of-english-rugby-forever-pro14/

Not a hope in hell's chance.
All the respective unions woulhave to agree.
RFU and the rest of the PRL teams would not allow them to have a Holliday in the pro14 then walk back into the prem

by TJ Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:54 am

It would be no holiday for them in the pro 14.

Now as the euro cup rules state that you must be compliant with your league rules to be eligible for the euro cup will Sarries be kicked out of that as well? I do hope so.

by No 7&1/2 Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:09 am

It would give the rest a chance.

by carpet baboon Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:31 am

Also some are reporting that to gain promotion back Into the prem clubs in the championship have to show that they have been compliant with the salary cap rules for 2 seasons

by No 7&1/2 Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:18 pm

Ah beshocked is back. It's all to do with saracens producing and developing great players for England and thus unfair to penalise them. We need to drop the cap and thank them else we would be also rans. BBC forum.

Tbh hes taking it better than I thought.

by carpet baboon Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:38 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah beshocked is back. It's all to do with saracens producing and developing great players for England and thus unfair to penalise them. We need to drop the cap and thank them else we would be also rans. BBC forum.

Tbh hes taking it better than I thought.

I'm glad he's back and still defending them.

by carpet baboon Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:02 pm

Saracens Chairman Neil Goulding said: ‘As the new Chairman of Saracens I acknowledge the club has made errors in the past and we unreservedly apologise for those mistakes. I and the rest of the Board are committed to overseeing stringent new governance measures to ensure regulatory compliance going forward.’

So they have now, very belatedly, apologized, and admired to "errors"
I really do think the report should've made public, so then everyone can move on.
While it's still hidden away there will be speculation no matter what sarries do.

I'm. Not one to praise American sport, but look at the NFL and how the finances of all teams salaries are public. Maybe that should be the way ahead

by The Great Aukster Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:16 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
Kingshu wrote:Saracens to move to Pro 14 for a year?
Prem don't have Scarcens for a year.
Pro 14 get publicly in England for a year.
Scarcens get a year to get back under wage, while England players get game time against top class teams.
Have a route to get back into Hcup a year earlier than by going to championship.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.rugbypass.com/news/the-radical-saracens-move-which-would-change-the-face-of-english-rugby-forever-pro14/

Not a hope in hell's chance.
All the respective unions woulhave to agree.
RFU and the rest of the PRL teams would not allow them to have a Holliday in the pro14 then walk back into the prem

It's a great idea.
Not just for a year though but for keeps. The idea of a wage cap is a ridiculous one and Saracens would find that without it and the relegation threat of the GP, they could simply compete without weaker teams trying to engineer their competitiveness away from them.
The PRO14 should be embracing as many markets as possible, to maximise revenue and a team like Saracens would be attractive to TV companies.
If Saracens had been in the PRO14 they wouldn't have been accused of cheating because there is no artificial engineering using a salary cap. Therefore there is no stigma of the PRO14 welcoming them with open arms. Rather than try to reduce a team's competitiveness the PRO14 Unions should be looking to make their League as competitive as possible because that is the only way teams get better.
Saracens could keep their players and secure their Academy hopefuls who might currently be wondering about their future.
England could ensure they would have their Test players match sharpened but not blunted by relegation overload.
It'a a win, win, win!

by nathan Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:24 pm

"they could simply compete without weaker teams trying to engineer their competitiveness away from them"

I think you are missing the point, they are not a sustainable club. The cap is to reduce the exposure of risk to the clubs

by No 7&1/2 Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:28 pm

I think you're forgetting that a fair few players wouldn't follow saracens to the pro 14 either and they would be less likely to keep any academy players who make it. Brave marketing men though who'd say come watch the cheats they'll prosper with us!

by carpet baboon Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:33 pm

And for all those saying salary caps should be scrapped as they are ridiculous I would like to point out that the NFL, NBA and NHL all have a very strict and policed salary caps.
I do realize they are operating in a different set of circumstances but clearly show that salary caps work to the benefit of all teams

by **Rugby Fan** Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:52 pm

Tony Rowe of Exeter has said "There's still more to come out of this." I can only wonder why we get drip fed news, rather than everything being sorted - crime & punishment - at one time. Whoever is to blame for the way this is playing out, it just creates so much needless uncertainty.

by TJ Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:55 pm

The Great Aukster wrote: Rather than try to reduce a team's competitiveness the PRO14 Unions should be looking to make their League as competitive as possible because that is the only way teams get better.

Do you actually watch / follow the pro 14? Its at least as compettive as the english league. Standards of play are higher, more exciting games.

Yes this year leinster are running away with it a bit and yes the bottom couple of clubs are not great - but the same applies in the english league!

Sarries even with their cheating and even outspending the pro 14 teams hugely are not significantly better than the top pro 14 teams. the spend millions more than leinster and probably twice what Glasgow do. Glasgows Total budget ( playing and non playing staff, expenses etc) is probably half Sarries at around 7 million a year. Total budget remeber

by formerly known as Sam Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:18 pm

TJ wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote: Rather than try to reduce a team's competitiveness the PRO14 Unions should be looking to make their League as competitive as possible because that is the only way teams get better.

Do you actually watch / follow the pro 14? Its at least as compettive as the english league. Standards of play are higher, more exciting games.

Yes this year leinster are running away with it a bit and yes the bottom couple of clubs are not great - but the same applies in the english league!

Sarries even with their cheating and even outspending the pro 14 teams hugely are not significantly better than the top pro 14 teams. the spend millions more than leinster and probably twice what Glasgow do. Glasgows Total budget ( playing and non playing staff, expenses etc) is probably half Sarries at around 7 million a year. Total budget remeber

Sarries second team left Thomond Park with an LBP Vs Munster's first team and then beat Ospreys first team despite playing more than an hour with 14 players.

Only Leinster would be likely to stop them winning the Championship.

Rumoured overspend is alleged to be around a million. However, Sarries currently benefit from the RFUs agreement with the PRL clubs of player release. Unsure whether they'd still receive those in the Pro14.

Can't compare Leinster's spend with Sarries. Irish players get central contracts and have to remain in Ireland to play internationally which is lucrative. Do they still get the tax break at the end of their sporting careers?

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:20 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Finally Leinster - while we do not have total transparency on wages I would be pretty sure from what is public knowledge that leinster would be under the English cap - certainly spending less than Sarries did.

It still amazes me that the argument of the Irish outspending the English comes up all the time no matter how many times it is proven to be false.

"Do not have total transparency on wage" "I would be pretty sure"

Not that it really matter in this instance, but you literally have no idea if Leinster spend less than Saracens then?

I don't understand why supports of T14 clubs are getting so outraged that they've been beaten by Saracens, it's got absolutely nothing to do with the made up English salary cap. You should more annoyed with the French and their "cap".

Feeling a bit sorry for Saracens actually as they've did wonders for English rugby in a country sense and in Europe, being the best side about for a number of years. It's still quite impressive that they've dominated Europe whilst arguably spending less than many French and T14 sides.

It's a shame that idea of a European squad and AP squad wasn't actually brought in as I imagine they'd still push for titles.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:26 pm

TJ wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote: Rather than try to reduce a team's competitiveness the PRO14 Unions should be looking to make their League as competitive as possible because that is the only way teams get better.

Its at least as competive as the english league. - I really don't think it is TJ.

Standards of play are higher - They're not.

More exciting games. - Depends what you define exciting as I guess.

Sarries even with their cheating and even outspending the pro 14 teams hugely are not significantly better than the top pro 14 teams - They are better than Leinster and significantly better than all the other pro14 sides.

The spend millions more than leinster and probably twice what Glasgow do - I really don't think they do mate.

by carpet baboon Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:49 pm

I see Stephen Jones is still doing his Stephen Jones thing in the times today.
It's everybody else's fault Saracens did nothing wrong, and even if they did they still shouldn't be punished.

by Gooseberry Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:01 pm

Imagine if Beshocked hadn't rage quit this forum

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