Wales vs Ireland - Round 5

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Teams TBA Thursday the 14th March

Referee Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 1 Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 2 Karl Dickson (England)
TMO Marius Jonker (South Africa)


Wales:

L Williams (Saracens); North (Ospreys), J Davies (Scarlets), Parkes (Scarlets), Adams (Worcester); Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), G Davies (Scarlets); R Evans (Scarlets), Owens (Scarlets), Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Beard (Ospreys), AW Jones (Ospreys, capt), Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Tipuric (Ospreys), Moriarty (Dragons).

Replacements: Dee (Dragons), Smith (Ospreys), D Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Ball (Scarlets), Wainwright (Dragons), A Davies (Ospreys), Biggar (Northampton), Watkin (Ospreys).



Ireland:


Kearney; Earls, Ringrose, Aki, Stockdale; Sexton, Murray; Healy, Best (capt), Furlong, Beirne, Ryan, O'Mahony, O'Brien, Stander.

Replacements: Scannell, Kilcoyne, Porter, Roux, Conan, Marmion, Carty, Larmour.

Gatland played a belter with the roof.

He knew the conditions would suit Wales more than Ireland, he obviously wanted the roof open, but knowing like we all do, everyone else like to win the battle of wits, and the roof conundrum is an easy one to win, all you have to do is not agree.

So what did Gats do ? He asked to close it, what did Schmidt then do ? He disagreed and wanted it open, why though as he must have seen the forecast, but we all now how it panned out.

Gatland was ready for rain because he knew Ireland wouldn't concede. I think that's the point. So Gatland won two pre-game battles - he made Schmidt think he really wanted the crowd and the dry ground for his GS attempt and he also got to be 'annoyed' that the Irish were being difficult about the roof. Now he wasn't annoyed of course, but he allowed the Welsh fans to have more reasons to be a driving force behind his side.
Nobody should play mind games with Gats. We just should have said have the roof anyway you want, we don't care. And I genuinely thought Schmidt would come with that attitude but unfortunately he did make a bit of a deal about it.

The rain wasn't what won the game for Wales or lost it for Ireland.

Anyway, Beirne felt that Ireland wanted it (the game) as much as Wales...or at least he did anyway, he says .
The man has a lot to learn about the intensity and performance levels required at top end International as distinct from the levels required for Scarlets or Munster.
Ah, it'll come hopefully and we might benefit from it.

carpet baboon wrote:For me, after the first two games, it was clear we weren't going to win the tournament, and sexton and Murray were dreadfully short of there best.
That was the time to start Cooney and Carty. Both were in form, both are excellent kickers, both can run an attacking backline, and both have shown they can manage a game.
Starting them for 3 games in a row would have put pressure on the other 2 to sort there games out, and given them both the reward their form deserved.
Also sticking with Jordan at 15 would have worked.
I see this tournament as a wasted opportunity

It takes an old dog for a hard road and the road doesn't get much harder than in Cardiff with Wales going for a Slam. The inexperienced guys like Beirne and Scannell will have learned from the experience but being so comprehensively outplayed won't have done much for their confidence. They are both likely to make the RWC squad, but Cooney and Carty much less likely, so why would Joe undermine his two most important players' confidence by dropping Sexton and Murray?

LordDowlais wrote:Gatland played a belter with the roof.

He knew the conditions would suit Wales more than Ireland, he obviously wanted the roof open, but knowing like we all do, everyone else like to win the battle of wits, and the roof conundrum is an easy one to win, all you have to do is not agree.

So what did Gats do ? He asked to close it, what did Schmidt then do ? He disagreed and wanted it open, why though as he must have seen the forecast, but we all now how it panned out.

Surprised that you think Gatland being a liar is something to be lauded.

SecretFly wrote:The rain wasn't what won the game for Wales or lost it for Ireland.

Gatland probably wanted the roof closed as he didn't have an umbrella. He's going to need a new suit now though.

Because it shows the wider squad there are no undropables .
Haven't we suffered in the past from picking players on what they have done before, not what they are currently doing?
And what if we get to the world cup and sexton and Murray are still in poor form? Now we will be forced to pick them because "they have the experience of playing the big games" and " we can't risk Cooney/Carty/carberry as they don't have the experience.
And why don't they gave the experience? Because we never gave them any.

Cooney and Carty should have started against Italy

That was a huge mistake

Reality Murray hasn't looked good since his injury and Sexton is playing like a drain.
Our biggest strength has become our biggest weakness

Also the forwards look devoid of energy.
The only exception being the performances of the three main locks - Ryan, Henderson and Toner
Not one backrower performed on Saturday and even Furlong has lost his spark.
Kearney is also clearly in decline

Looks to me the World Cup has come a year too later - a defeat in the QFs beckon

SecretFly wrote:The rain wasn't what won the game for Wales or lost it for Ireland.

Was it the Ref?

No, it was 15 lads playing in red. You met them earlier, Tight, didn't you.

Whilst I might say that I understand why Schmidt might have been inclined to give two returning, and possibly central players come WC time, some valued big game experience - I do say they were both given too much time and too much time together. But then I don't know what Schmidt's preparation tactics are... so we might guess his mind frame but maybe we're well off.
All I know is that Ireland are currently playing a very basic elementary game exceedingly badly, and not just in that Welsh game - and I don't believe that these coaches are perplexed as to the reasons why. I don't buy it. The reasons why are there on camera and quite a number of them are technical as distinct from simply a few players being off colour.
But Schmidt can't guarantee that any of his players will turn up in Japan, much less two specific players in Sexton and Murray. So if one or both get injured, perhaps the experiences to date of the alternatives haven't been enough.
I do think Schmidt sacrificed this competition. Now I also think he wasn't looking for the big losses against Wales and England but I do think he was pleasantly surprised at the position his team landed in despite looking so poor. I'm not nearly as depressive as some of the journalists/fans. I don't see it as a rebuilding process, I see it now as just a cranking up of the engine again. Bit by bit, each aspect, intensity brought back in incrementally. It's there in these players. For some of them now it's nothing left to save their energies for. One more goal (6N wasn't it this year) and on to retirement or at the least a year or two of club rugby mostly when the new players and new coach take more of the International weight.

LordDowlais wrote:Gatland played a belter with the roof.

He knew the conditions would suit Wales more than Ireland, he obviously wanted the roof open, but knowing like we all do, everyone else like to win the battle of wits, and the roof conundrum is an easy one to win, all you have to do is not agree.

So what did Gats do ? He asked to close it, what did Schmidt then do ? He disagreed and wanted it open, why though as he must have seen the forecast, but we all now how it panned out.

Well, looking back at the game. It was Wales control and composure that won. Ireland did not lose, Wales won. The ref had little influence on the game as I felt he was very consistent with his rulings, Wales just played smarter. This is something that I have often criticised Ireland for not doing.

Not so sure Ireland played too badly, they were just forced into making more mistakes by a more hungry Welsh team so all credit to the Welsh there.

Of all, I thought the 9-10 (usually Irelands best aspect) for Ireland were poor. Murray should concentrate more on playing the game (the whistle) than pleading for penalties at every breakdown and Sexton looked well off and I felt he should have been replaced at half time.

That all said, this 6N is by no means a barometer of what Ireland will be like for the RWC. Its not been the best tournament but Ireland have been down before and got back up. I fully expect Schmidt to lift the player come the RWC.

Yes Murrays constant pleading for penalties is getting annoying. The pack didnt play great either, no one really did. The fell apart under pressure.

miaow wrote:Have a day off...

That's a bit rich, isn't it?

By the way, I told you the weather is what makes games often memorable and epic. Already the blasted rain at this game has evolved into a legendary character. Some Irish journalist now talking about AWJ and the little child he had to protect from the rain at the beginning. Bloody Homeric stuff will be written about those bloody rain drops through the decades

The major reason for the Welsh victory was Gardener penalising the Irish players for what they have spent many seasons getting away with. Faced with this, they had no Plan B. Their lack of momentum and lack of alternative plan caused the players to fall apart, leading to mistakes being made.

Cause and effect.

This would have happened had the roof been shut, or had any other Irish players started the game. Schmidt's challenge now is coach that Plan B as it seems that World Rugby has finally caught up with him.

And he will do, of course, because he's a brilliant coach.

eirebilly wrote:Well, looking back at the game. It was Wales control and composure that won. Ireland did not lose, Wales won. The ref had little influence on the game as I felt he was very consistent with his rulings, Wales just played smarter. This is something that I have often criticised Ireland for not doing.

Not so sure Ireland played too badly, they were just forced into making more mistakes by a more hungry Welsh team so all credit to the Welsh there.

Of all, I thought the 9-10 (usually Irelands best aspect) for Ireland were poor. Murray should concentrate more on playing the game (the whistle) than pleading for penalties at every breakdown and Sexton looked well off and I felt he should have been replaced at half time.

That all said, this 6N is by no means a barometer of what Ireland will be like for the RWC. Its not been the best tournament but Ireland have been down before and got back up. I fully expect Schmidt to lift the player come the RWC.

You see, I see little sense in this at all. The ref had a huge influence on the game because he prevented the Irish getting away with what they have been doing for many seasons. It's human nature to then be surprised by not being allowed to do what you've always been allowed to do. The next stage after surprise is doubt and that leads to confidence falling apart. In a team situation, that spreads like wildfire and suddenly you get the petulant nature of Sexton shining through. Add that to the mistakes of Stander, Healy getting properly pinged at scrum time and for his "clearing out" technique and you can see there was no Plan B.

The whole game was summed up by Sexton's actions after the up and under when he tried to clear out and then sealed off, having crawled his way over the ball. He was surprised and upset to be penalised. He wasn't expecting it. He'd been getting away with stuff like that for a long time.

That was a microcosm of the game.

If I see Kearney pulled out at 15 for the friendliest to come I'll be mad. We all know he has possibly two or three (if that) big - and I mean influential in a positive way - games left in him. He's probably holding hopes of them now for the World Cup. And that's all we'll need from him now if he makes it there. One or two big games if picked.
But that 15 spot needs a new name and it needs the new name to be given enough time. So please Joe, do not tell us come those warm up games that Kearney needs time to up his form. Pick the successor and hope that Kearney will be up enough by Japan.

Curious about Gardiner. I don't ref watch so much as in keeping a track record of games they officiated, results etc. Sometimes I wish I did take the time as I'm sure I'd detect lots of curious stats about what and when they miss certain 'issues' and where and when they might not be blind to them.
In any case, I think I read before the game that Gardiner had reffed games before with Ireland in it. I can't remember the number but I think it was said at the time that Ireland had won all of them?
Is there some poster here who knows more about refs who can confirm what I seem to remember reading?
If such be the case (and I don't want to engage in ref talk as regards the result) but could you blame Ireland for being bemused that this guy seemed to have changed his views on the game without telling them? And if he had changed his views, well it seems late in the day as a ref ..again supposedly not informing the Irish.
I think too that it was said the Irish had a mini meeting with the ref at half time to explain his decisions better and Gats had a meeting with him some days before the game to explain that Wales weren't trying to give away penalties, were trying to be good. (But watch them other lads! .... my bit)
Anyway, as Phill says, Ireland will be like the Borg. They'll adapt and reset their files on Gardiner.

Sorry Fly but Ireland have a long history of not adjusting to referee's. There were two teams playing and one team adjusted... Wales.

In no way is the ref to be blamed for any potential loss. I thought he was very clear and very consistent in his rulings.

eirebilly wrote:Sorry Fly but Ireland have a long history of not adjusting to referee's. There were two teams playing and one team adjusted... Wales.

In no way is the ref to be blamed for any potential loss. I thought he was very clear and very consistent in his rulings.

Indeed he was. It was a pleasure for many of us to see penalised what we had long noted that the Irish teams got away with.

I didn't bring up no refs, billy. Just to be clear on that before proceeding. I asked how many times this coach reffed an Irish game and is it true that Ireland won on every occasion. I then also hinted that if such is the case - and Ireland DO analyse refs - then why would they be doing things he constantly wanted to ping?

Questions. To be answered or not. I'm never too concerned about refs, just our own performances.

With your neutral eye phill, what do Wales get away with?

SecretFly wrote:With your neutral eye phill, what do Wales get away with?

Adams 'trip' was probably a yellow, I don't think anything else went unpunished in this game.

People are rightly giving Murray, Sexton and Healey stick but how insignificant was POM in that game ?

It didn't help him that his breakdown work was finally being reffed correctly but to only make one tackle is absolutely shocking

SecretFly wrote:With your neutral eye phill, what do Wales get away with?

Wales' tricks were exposed by Gauzere in Murrayfield, all designed to make that ruck ball just a little bit slower. They adapted to Gauzere as these were minor and deliberate offences. The Irish were undone as their infringements were widespread and systemic.

Yeah, try again. Wales have their own selection and they'll be scanned even more now with the price on their head. Those coach/ref meetings will be sizzlers in advance of games.

SecretFly wrote:Yeah, try again.  Wales have their own selection and they'll be scanned even more now with the price on their head.  Those coach/ref meetings will be sizzlers in advance of games.

It seemed pretty accurate to me ? I'd also add that Ireland hate chasing a game - get a try and go ahead early then will turn down 3 points all day. The game reminded me of the 2011 world cup game- the Irish back row were anonymous then too.

SecretFly wrote:Yeah, try again.  Wales have their own selection and they'll be scanned even more now with the price on their head.  Those coach/ref meetings will be sizzlers in advance of games.

Eh? I'm not sure why you think a team that has won so many games in a row wouldn't have been part of the analysis undertaken by World Rugby referees.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Yeah, try again.  Wales have their own selection and they'll be scanned even more now with the price on their head.  Those coach/ref meetings will be sizzlers in advance of games.

Eh? I'm not sure why you think a team that has won so many games in a row wouldn't have been part of the analysis undertaken by World Rugby referees.

We hadn't beaten the best team in the world though, do keep up.

Munkian, the shorthand is that all players were dreadful. But then to say that sillies the Welsh performance and that's not really what anyone wants to do. It was ferocious and controlled in equal measure, hats off to Welsh coaches, all of them.
Yet, when Irish followers look at their own side, as you do and as you must, we do also have to admit we were crap. No shame in not winning, some shame in the nature. But I have no doubts that these players, the very same ones, will bounce back. In short, regardless of any criticism heaped by fans external or internal, journalists internal or external, I can't genuinely feel the gloom or depression. That's rare for me after such a defeat but I don't feel this pervading gloom about the team

munkian wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Yeah, try again.  Wales have their own selection and they'll be scanned even more now with the price on their head.  Those coach/ref meetings will be sizzlers in advance of games.

Eh? I'm not sure why you think a team that has won so many games in a row wouldn't have been part of the analysis undertaken by World Rugby referees.

We hadn't beaten the best team in the world though, do keep up.

Didn't that happen on Saturday?

SecretFly wrote:Munkian, the shorthand is that all players were dreadful.  But then to say that sillies the Welsh performance and that's not really what anyone wants to do. It was ferocious and controlled in equal measure, hats off to Welsh coaches, all of them.
Yet, when Irish followers look at their own side, as you do and as you must, we do also have to admit we were crap.  No shame in not winning, some shame in the nature.  But I have no doubts that these players, the very same ones, will bounce back.  In short, regardless of any criticism heaped by fans external or internal, journalists internal or external, I can't genuinely feel the gloom or depression.  That's rare for me after such a defeat but I don't feel this pervading gloom about the team

Don't you have to analyse why "we were crap"?

Phil are you happy or mad? Not quite certain. Wales are as any other, they live on the edge of what they can get away with. Other coaches will have issues with them going into the future as the higher up the rankings you go the bigger the magnifying glass...just ask the ABs

Yeah Phil I think the analysis of why we were crap started during the game itself...? It will go on until the next big contest.

PhilBB wrote:

munkian wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Yeah, try again.  Wales have their own selection and they'll be scanned even more now with the price on their head.  Those coach/ref meetings will be sizzlers in advance of games.

Eh? I'm not sure why you think a team that has won so many games in a row wouldn't have been part of the analysis undertaken by World Rugby referees.

We hadn't beaten the best team in the world though, do keep up.

Didn't that happen on Saturday?

It did, which is why we are now going to be scrutinised

SecretFly wrote:Phil are you happy or mad?  Not quite certain.  Wales are as any other, they live on the edge of what they can get away with.  Other coaches will have issues with them going into the future as the higher up the rankings you go the bigger the magnifying glass...just ask the ABs

Right, I see. Other coaches didn't look so closely at Wales as they did at Ireland.

Because of rankings.

Okie dokie.

munkian wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

munkian wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Yeah, try again.  Wales have their own selection and they'll be scanned even more now with the price on their head.  Those coach/ref meetings will be sizzlers in advance of games.

Eh? I'm not sure why you think a team that has won so many games in a row wouldn't have been part of the analysis undertaken by World Rugby referees.

We hadn't beaten the best team in the world though, do keep up.

Didn't that happen on Saturday?

It did, which is why we are now going to be scrutinised

Right. Cheers. Now I get it.

Well Phil, you mention a ref that missed Ireland's tricks before when he let them win.... was that because of rankings? Refs, coaches...everything magnifies at the top, doesn't it.
IWales have tricks. Coaches won't be so ready to gloss over them. The meetings.

SecretFly wrote:Well Phil, you mention a ref that missed Ireland's tricks before when he let them win.... was that because of rankings?  Refs, coaches...everything magnifies at the top, doesn't it.
IWales have tricks.  Coaches won't be so ready to gloss over them.  The meetings.

I can only conclude that you're unaware of how the referees work together and how they analyse play, as part of World Rugby directives.

Even during the game, Gardener showed that he was willing to change his mind when presented with the evidence, so that explains why he refereed Ireland properly on the weekend. I can't comment on his previous games, just the review process that referees go through that you seem unaware of.

Referees supposedly work together at Pro14 levels too, Phil, but you don't trust them or their processes...so... where does that leave us at International? You'll trust the refs until one day your team has a bad day with them. Then the post match threads will be full of the ref stuff.
I blame Ireland (bad) and Wales (good) for the loss...to us. You want to talk about refs. But when I engage, you don't want to consider the full implications. Wales have their tricks.

SecretFly wrote:Referees supposedly work together at Pro14 levels too, Phil, but you don't trust them or their processes...so...  where does that leave us at International?  You'll trust the refs until one day your team has a bad day with them.  Then the post match threads will be full of the ref stuff.
I blame Ireland (bad) and Wales (good) for the loss...to us.  You want to talk about refs.  But when I engage, you don't want to consider the full implications.  Wales have their tricks.

From what have you got the idea that I "don't want to consider the full implications"?

And I'm not sure what Greg Garner's incompetence under the strain of trying to control referees out of his jurisdiction has to do with Alain Rolland's control over the international game, sorry. That just reads like a desperate attempt at misdirection from you.

Are you happy or mad, Phil? You don't even enjoy wonderful wins it seems...preferring to chase down the juicy arguments about refs even then. You like refs and trust them..... you don't like refs and don't trust them. Like the proverbial roof opening and closing to the elements. Just enjoy your great win, your Slam, your Number 2 in the World ranking, your good crop of players.

Just enjoy for a change.

SecretFly wrote:Are you happy or mad, Phil?   You don't even enjoy wonderful wins it seems...preferring to chase down the juicy arguments about refs even then.  You like refs and trust them..... you don't like refs and don't trust them. Like the proverbial roof opening and closing to the elements.  Just enjoy your great win, your Slam, your Number 2 in the World ranking, your good crop of players.

Just enjoy for a change.

So I was right. There we are then.

Thought Ireland were slightly hard done by the first half. But then as a few have said you can normally pick a few ways to ping people in rugby.

Phil....enjoy your win. The ref debates we won't be agreeing on, not now and I'm sure not in the future. Stop looking for endless affirmation - just bloody well Enjoy Your Win.

Anyone else find it ironic that Phill is saying Ireland lost because of the ref?

Did you have a month ban, Phil?! Last post 17th Feb, then a flurry of posts today the 18th March!

Also I can't remember him ever really posting on the international boards.
But I suppose it was another chance to have a go at all things Ireland so he couldn't resist.