Wales vs Ireland - Round 5

First topic message reminder :


Teams TBA Thursday the 14th March

Referee Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 1 Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 2 Karl Dickson (England)
TMO Marius Jonker (South Africa)


Wales:

L Williams (Saracens); North (Ospreys), J Davies (Scarlets), Parkes (Scarlets), Adams (Worcester); Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), G Davies (Scarlets); R Evans (Scarlets), Owens (Scarlets), Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Beard (Ospreys), AW Jones (Ospreys, capt), Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Tipuric (Ospreys), Moriarty (Dragons).

Replacements: Dee (Dragons), Smith (Ospreys), D Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Ball (Scarlets), Wainwright (Dragons), A Davies (Ospreys), Biggar (Northampton), Watkin (Ospreys).



Ireland:


Kearney; Earls, Ringrose, Aki, Stockdale; Sexton, Murray; Healy, Best (capt), Furlong, Beirne, Ryan, O'Mahony, O'Brien, Stander.

Replacements: Scannell, Kilcoyne, Porter, Roux, Conan, Marmion, Carty, Larmour.

Ah good luck to him. He's undoubtedly a madly passionate Welshman. No problem with that. But damn I know what it feels like to be an AB fan now (I am one anyway ). But it seems we can do nothing right in rugby according to Phil. And even when we do, it's mostly through cheating.
Well here's to the Provinces. Hopefully some more well disguised cheating might at least bring a HEC home. It's all we can now hope for preWC

Just reading a post on Twitter about the praise poured on to Gatland and Edwards when Wales are winning but how Robin McBryde gets nothing as forwards coach! Very true. 13 years as forwards coach (I think). Credit due for developing a tough bunch of forwards in what has traditionally been a soft area and Achilles heel for Wales (although the line out was mince this tournament so maybe that’s why no one is singing his praises! Ha).

Forwards and set piece have been pretty good since 2014/15. No big wobbles - even during the Adam Jones years, the scrum could be hit and miss, particularly without him. And even if the scrum was good, the lineout invariably went to sheet.

Lineout's been poor this season but since 2015 it's been ok. The interesting thing is World Cups and Wales peaking - Huw Bennett played his best rugby that tournament and actually hit his jumpers. Massively helped by Charteris, who was one of Wales' best players. Scott Baldwin wasn't dreadful in 2015 - infamous lineout defence against England. I wouldn't be surprised to see the set piece peak again in Japan.

Also, worth noting Rob Howley - gets so much stick but some of the back moves they've scored have been great, this season and in the last few season. My favourite is probably North's try against England in 2016. Brilliant move.

Lol we know it wasn't McBryde though.

Rob Howley oh dear

The lack of self awareness...hahaha...

Lack of blatant common sense to not embrace the realization of the years of mediocrity under Howley - as if the years he took the head coach role weren't obvious enough; in which case I would allude to the point of view of certain players like Farrell, Sexton and O'Brien. I think they just reaffirmed what a lot of us already knew. Credit to Howley nah no thanks, next

A belated congratulations to Wales on a well deserved Grand slam. Without doubt the best side in the tournament this year, Wales have been quietly going under the radar for the past year but the cat is out of the bag now, they are one of the best sides in the world.

For Ireland that was a bitterly disappointing performance, probably the worst under Schmidt. Wales were excellent and shut us down but similar to the England game we just seemed to lose composure and compound a poor start with a lot of errors and ill discipline.

Schmidt and Farrell will have a lot of concern about this drop in confidence and form so close to the RWC.

You know this thing about Under the Radar. No team genuinely wants to be under the radar. I look at the printed media in the UK and it's all now England and Wales, AWJ, setting benchmarks for Japan, team of the tournament, etc. And rightly so. Gatland and indeed the players will be delighted they are all over the minds of pundits and journalists now. England too know they looked quite potent and they have their heroes of hope to gloat about. No going back under the radar for either of those two sides. Even if warmups are nothing special, the word will be they are holding their best bits back for WC.
Scotland have identified themselves a little with that second half against England but the world seems to be saying it was England that took the foot off, that Farrell is the enemy, that the surge came from 'nothing to lose' and of course in Japan, there is everything to lose.
Ireland have disappeared. So bad they're not worth mentioning and rightly so. And the players will brood on that. So contrary to the maxim, I think the drive will be to make themselves seen again...just as Gatland himself declared at the start of the 6N. There's no glory in keeping yourself under the radar. The only reason for being is winning things and making yourself prominent.
Gats and Jones and their players want it all, and rightly so. But you instantly lose the weapon required to get there - that driving ambition to change the world's perception of you. That ball is back with the Irish....and the French.... and SA.... and Australia........ and that other one I can't now remember, the one dressed in black.

Btw, it might vaguely interest Phill, that auld charlatan codger himself, Jackman, of all people, agreed with me last night on Against the Head. Said now Wales will feel the heat of all their little tricks being magnified by coaches wanting to influence the refs whistle. I laughed and I cried. Why the hell had it to be you, Jackman? Why didn't you let EOS say it!

Speaking of Eddie... after the England loss and a stuttering win against Scotland a few people including Eddie where comparing to 2007. I have to say, I laughed at the overreaction at the time but am now seeing worrying parallels.

The RWC thankfully is some time away but with no meaningful games now there really isn't any time to turn things around form wise for Ireland.

I wonder if the IRFU are questioning the decision to announce Farrell as Schmidt successor now?

Remind me of 2007 rodders? I've been through so many of them that the mind wanders.

Wales will be under the radar come the World Cup, you mark my words.

We'll get beaten by England and Ireland in at least one of the games and the heat will be back off.

How's the oven, Oracle? Is it warm enough in there or do you want me to turn up the heat some more?

It don't matter anyway. I hear Joe is finally admitting he needs revolutionary new ideas. So Sexton will now slot into 8, Stander goes to scrumhalf, and dancing toes Toner to 15.
So two massive wins for Wales coming.

rodders wrote:Speaking of Eddie... after the England loss and a stuttering win against Scotland a few people including Eddie where comparing to 2007. I have to say, I laughed at the overreaction at the time but am now seeing worrying parallels.

The RWC thankfully is some time away but with no meaningful games now there really isn't any time to turn things around form wise for Ireland.

I wonder if the IRFU are questioning the decision to announce Farrell as Schmidt successor now?

Its always the same when Ireland lose a big game. Its hysteria, panic and all the coach's fault. Was very disappointed with the game but I'm sure they will turn it around. 3rd in the six nations is never a disaster and Wales are tough to stop on a roll.

Ireland played a bit like England last year, our big guys looked worn out. Furlong was very quiet, Murray is slow, low on confidence and frustrated, Sexton is kicking badly out of hand and also frustrated. The forwards in particular the back row, mainly Sean O'Brien and O'Mahony have not been physical enough in their carries and dominance of the gain line. Both had poor campaigns.

Ireland's game plan is based in part on discipline so I think when they get an unsympathetic ref then can get frustrated too quickly rather than figuring out another way.

I would back Schmidt to have plenty up his sleeve for Japan though and expect the team to gel once again by then. Not happy with the result but not overly concerned by it either.

Congratulations to Wales for a fine performance through the 6Ns and especially in this game.

Well done Wales,worthy winners and a great send off for Gatland.
As far as Ireland are concerned I'm disappointed but won't get worried yet. I remember when we stuttered past Argentina in November the same doom and gloom was out there but we turned it around very quickly in just a week. This is definitely the optimistic view but I believe that the WC is the focus this year and when it comes round we'll see that focus back. I still am very confident of making the WC semi-final at a minimum, injuries permitting obviously.

As far as personnel goes I think Carty must be very close to overtaking Carbery ,he is a far more mature OH and while it will be short term I think he looks much more comfortable running the team. Kilcoyne,Dillane,Conan and Larmour all enhanced their reputations this tournament but not many others did. Beirne looks too lightweight to start at this level,Wayne Pivac called it a few years ago but he is a great bench option. SoB is now 3rd choice 7 and Murphy is breathing down his neck so imo he doesn't make the squad unless his form sky rockets. Marmion is putting pressure on Murray but I expect Murray to come back stronger with a full preseason to build up any issues he has relating to his injury. Sexton stays 1st choice but is lucky Paddy Jackson is gone,it's only because he has 2 novices backing him up that he remains relatively secure and even that will need to be reassessed if he can't get back to something nearer his best.

Carbery's move to Munster was to groom him for the understudy role behind Sexton. He has more Test experience than Carty and more potential from the bench. He was playing really well outside the first choice Test Scrum half for his province and offers more utility that Carty. Nothing barring injury is keeping him out of the 31 travellers.

Carty has overtaken Byrne as third choice and if everyone is fit will be on RWC standby, but can't see him in the squad. More importantly if Joe had seem him in that role he surely would have started against Italy.

I think it's just time we ask the question 'what team does Sexton play in and what team does Murray play in?'
So many people talk of 'units' that have familiarity with each other being beneficial when trying to put together an International side. 9 - 10 relationship is essential for the momentum a team gives itself.
Why doesn't Joe just experiment with familiarity for a change and either put Munster's 9 and 10 in there or Leinster's. It's all well talking the stuff about how well connected Murray and Sexton are at International. Well...... maybe so. But there is no way the rhythm of Sexton's usual weekly antics are the same as the weekly rhythms of Murray. They are not the same sides style wise. So perhaps both players are now equally frustrated with each other. I've always felt, and you have to be honest in these things at times, that Sexton has tolerated Murray rather than enjoyed the experience of playing with him. I think he does get frustrated with the pace of Murray's more natural game. Think he prefers a snappier, sparky 9. Am I blaming Murray? No. He plays his brand but he's on the field with a 10 that more regularly plays with a sharper tempoed 9.
Why not just give in and join up a natural unit for a change, Joe.

2 years ago England were going to win the WC
Last year Ireland were.
Today's Gatland's Wales will.
Of course NZ will be there or thereabouts.
Australia/SA might even have a say.
Considering last WC there were no teams in the last 4 from the NH, I think we can be a little more optimistic this time around.
Point is its a good thing that the Irish players go back to their provenances and get away from the international scene.
All 4 provenances have something to play for. Let the players get their mojo back there.

Against Scotland in the opening game you could easily see, Leavy at 7, Henshaw at 12, (not a good game to try him at 15 again), Toner back in.
The coaches work starts now as come the friendlies playing England once and Wales twice I think our WC starts there. We will have to get 2 wins from those 3 otherwise no semi final for Ireland.
Congrats to Wales. I for one see it a bit of a positive thing having a team with most players form the PRO14.
Also with the last 3 winners being different they each challenge each other to get better and maybe get a 2nd WC win up north.
I totally agree with Quinlan having a go at the Irish critics. Last year Ireland could do no wrong. Now everybody has an expert view on how to fix the team.
I'm certain we won't repeat WC 2007. I would love to see SOB get himself right for one last tournament. He's been immense for Leinster/Ireland.

Some things i alluded to before the match each had a big impact. POM was anonymous, that guy blows hot and cold big time. Get Beirne to 6 if you’re not a fan of him at 2nd row - he was also one of Ireland’s best players on the day. Kearney and O’Brien are past it; they can probably still do a bit of a job against Italy but it was mistake having them start this match when guys like Larmour, Leavy and Murphy are available. There’s a pretty simple blueprint for beating Ireland and it’s called shutdown their forward pack; on the back foot Murray and Sexton had shockers. It’s easier said than done so credit to the Welsh pack for doing so.

Schmidt also had a bit of shocker in selecting the personnel at 6 and 7. Back-row has been an area of strength for Wales for a few years now and should only get better with Shingler, Jenkins and Faletau coming back in; with Wainright, Griffiths looking like the next best.
Ireland should improve though as they have the players and coaches. Wales will be making changes for some game in the World Cup warm-ups so I expect that is when our win streak will end.

Irelands backrow - try Beirne, Conan, Leavy

POM, CJ and SOB all underperformed

geoff999rugby wrote:Irelands backrow - try Beirne, Conan, Leavy

POM, CJ and SOB all underperformed

I agree, the back row was weak all tournament. SOB is finished, POM just isn't physical enough and Stander is still good but probably needs more help.

I reckon Conan, Stander, Leavy and VdF should be our top dogs at this point.

Collapse2005 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Irelands backrow - try Beirne, Conan, Leavy

POM, CJ and SOB all underperformed

I agree, the back row was weak all tournament. SOB is finished, POM just isn't physical enough and Stander is still good but probably needs more help.

I reckon Conan, Stander, Leavy and VdF should be our top dogs at this point.

I think the big winner this 6N was Leavy. VDF is a quality player but lacks a bit of durability and physicality, SOB looks a shadow of the world class player he was. Leavy really brings an edge and balance to the back row.

Conan did well and has done his RWC chances no harm, another guy who might still be in the mix is Ruddock.

Toner was badly missed in the second row.

Toner was missed - my feeling is there is a big drop off after Ryan, Toner and Henderson at Lock

Going on an overview of the kind of honest and consistent performers for Ireland this last season or so, here's who I'd currently put on the plane. I'm not saying they don't have bad games but overall, I feel more certain and secure when they are around. It's not a long list.
Toner
Conan
VDF
Conway
Standar
James Ryan
...and probably Stockdale who didn't have a good game against Wales but at times this 6N showed a calmer head and more maturity in just getting on and keeping going than some of the senior 'leaders'

The rest seem to blow very hot and cold. Sometimes they seem untouchable, other times they look fragile, uptight and unable to think straight under pressure
Maybe too many Irish players look at their personal show reels rather than the ball in front of them, the ball in their hands, the ball they are about to throw or recieve, the ball they want to win. Players concentrating on themselves rather than the ball. Just look at how the Welsh all through their game are feverishly concentrating on the ball. They are making the hits, they are disrupting ferociously, but always their attention is on the ball. Irish players sometimes look like it's a game of competing physicality. As if it's the hits that matter - personal victories. It isn't, it's what your intention is as regards the ball when doing those hits and tackles. Too many Irish players have been distracted from their job as they've soaked up the adoration about their personal prowess.

I think it'll come good again as they become more honest about a lack of focus...but for now, there are few players that merit a ticket onto that plane for the kind of intense contest this WC will be.

I think Schmidt and Farrell will be a bit less sure of their RWC squad than they were.

Players who've slipped -

SOB
Cronin
Beirne
Conway
Porter

Players who's chances have gone up -

Scannell
Dillane
Carty
Leavy
Addison
Larmour
Conan
John Ryan

I also think with Henshaw out Schmidt should have gave McCloskey a game -Aki started the tournament well but then became a bit predictable to me as the tournament went on.

I thought Kilcoyne has had some decent moments in his cameos.

I think Aki has slipped, Henshaw fit is a shoo in
I also think Beirne is looking more likely as a 6 than a second row
Also lets call it Murray and Sexton have slipped
Injury will do for Addison
Kearney has slipped
POM has slipped badly - before 6N one of first names on team sheet - not sure I'd even pick him now - maybe on the bench
Cronin hasn't slipped - he has fallen off a cliff

Not sure what Dillane, John Ryan
or Stander have done to justified the've gone up
Carty has enhanced his card as has Scannell.
agree Kilcoyne has done himself no harm

Or how about this. Maybe Schmidt and Farrell are already ruthlessly culling names from their genuine list and maybe they've used this Six Nations to do it. Schmidt talks endlessly of putting players under pressure to check them out and saying that's really the only way you learn. He certainly put them under pressure this time by giving them a 10 who was way out of form and with such little game time, and a 9 still recovering from what was a mystery neck/shoulder injury that he himself said might stall his progress back to full steam for a full year. That axis is what Schmidt threw at England and Wales in top form? He also needlessly changed the side that played against France to further rupture any growing clarity. He knows Kearney will not get himself up now until hopefully (in his mind) getting to that WC. These older guys are terrified they won't get to the WC, and that psychology meant Kearney was never going to be hot enough for a game that would only get us to 2nd had we won.

That's why I'm not too worked up. Schmidt's actions just don't compute. He is playing the long term game. It might come off, it mightn't. One last goal.

There wont be wholesale changes in advance of the RWC. It wouldn't make sense to start culling now IMO and I doubt it will happen.

Incidentally, already looking forward to the future and what Farrell's new Ireland might look like with a new selection of coaches. Joe Schmidt has been great, not just at International but for Leinster. And hopefully he can go out on a high - not necessarily a WC win but if Gats and Jones say it bluntly then why not us, we should go with the belief that we can win it.
But already, with the Six Nations fixtures for 2020, everyone will be wondering what kind of Ireland show up. Wales will be at that stage too of course. And perhaps England. And maybe Scotland! And possibly France....... sheesh, 2019 - a mystery.

This result has been coming for a while. Joe Schmidt is the worst thing to have happened to Irish rugby. His Leinster lap dogs and fake news outlets talk of his achievements, but what has he really done? He has players who are unable to think for themselves and are robots to his almost Gestapo like way he runs his team. I see people who have no confidence in their own abilities with all intelligence and flair drilled out of them. Just ask Carlos Spencer how Schmidt deals with flair. Look at POM- the man was born world class. A world class infant who burst out of the womb like he was smashing a ruck. A man who walked at 6 weeks old. A man who ate steak before he had teeth. A man who sang Amhrán na bhFiann before he could even speak. He was born world class and will die world class. And Schmidt has crushed him. It’s outrageous.

This man was hounded from New Zealand due to his failures at the Blues. But he is from New Zealand so he of course must be progressive and all knowing and wise. He is a farce and has been found out. You’d never get a performance from a Declan Kidney team. Maybe some of you Schmidt evangelicals can design your funny little clocks for when he leaves his role. You disgrace time itself and besmirch the Julian calendar.

The man needs to go. He has hounded Simon Zebo from these shores, a once in a lifetime talent, in a similar fashion to the Wild Geese. Generations for Irishmen and women will sing ballads about his treatment and he will be lauded as a martyr to the whims of the West British media in the D4 mafia.

It breaks my heart that he will replaced by a Sassenach. This is not what our forefathers died for. Connolly, Emmett, Pearse, Ó Cléirigh, Plunkett, the early of Tyrone & Tyrconnell, Ger Earls, Graham Norton: this is not that proud Irishmen have this blood, sweat, tears and loves for. For shame IRFU, for shame.

Haha, the funny thing is there are people out there that actually think like that. That reads like a Niall Kiely article.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/even-staunch-blues-now-fear-a-hiding-1.758025

Is Sassenach an acceptable term these days? Even if he did spell it wrong

BamBam wrote:Is Sassenach an acceptable term these days? Even if he did spell it wrong

Im sorry you’re ashamed of your native tongue. Teuchter

gotta be Gibbo!

Or DOD on a good form day......

So refreshing to hear a Carlos Spencer allusion on these threads. Like old times.

OK be honest Peter, are you really Simon Zebo?

Collapse2005 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Irelands backrow - try Beirne, Conan, Leavy

POM, CJ and SOB all underperformed

I agree, the back row was weak all tournament. SOB is finished, POM just isn't physical enough and Stander is still good but probably needs more help.

I reckon Conan, Stander, Leavy and VdF should be our top dogs at this point.

POM got 2 motm awards and the ruck results for the weekend has him comfortably on top. It's easier to make a tackle than hit rucks.

profitius wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Irelands backrow - try Beirne, Conan, Leavy

POM, CJ and SOB all underperformed

I agree, the back row was weak all tournament. SOB is finished, POM just isn't physical enough and Stander is still good but probably needs more help.

I reckon Conan, Stander, Leavy and VdF should be our top dogs at this point.

POM got 2 motm awards and the ruck results for the weekend has him comfortably on top. It's easier to make a tackle than hit rucks.

Don’t let the facts get in the way of a blue magoo sense of outrage and individualisation of the problems. You should have let guns continue to embarrass himself.

There are lies, damn lies and statistics

MOTM awards I have long regarded as a joke.
It is not about hitting rucks, it is about hitting rucks and making a difference.
Turning up at a ruck and making no difference is pointless

POM has not, along with many others, played well

I'll sit in the fence in this one. POM has been ok at times in the championship but not great.

I think the same could be said for a number of players but given his status as a talisman and leader, he's been disappointing.

Peter Stringer wrote:You’d never get a performance from a Declan Kidney team.

A bit harsh on Deccie, surely there must have been at least one game on his way to HEC glory or the Grand Slam that would constitute a performance?

Peter Stringer wrote:

BamBam wrote:Is Sassenach an acceptable term these days? Even if he did spell it wrong

Im sorry you’re ashamed of your native tongue. Teuchter

Its Gaelic for Saxon.

The English word for Cymru (Wales) is Saxon for 'stranger'

If Wales is allowed then I don't see why Sassenach isn't ?

The Great Aukster wrote:

Peter Stringer wrote:You’d never get a performance from a Declan Kidney team.

A bit harsh on Deccie, surely there must have been at least one game on his way to HEC glory or the Grand Slam that would constitute a performance?

Kidney’s excellence transcends performance. He is more than the simplicity of how humans understand the term ‘performance’. There is no grammatical error on my original post. You are just too simple minded to understand it. Doctors call it Schmidtitis. I call it talking pure bullSchmidt.

profitius wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Irelands backrow - try Beirne, Conan, Leavy

POM, CJ and SOB all underperformed

I agree, the back row was weak all tournament. SOB is finished, POM just isn't physical enough and Stander is still good but probably needs more help.

I reckon Conan, Stander, Leavy and VdF should be our top dogs at this point.

POM got 2 motm awards and the ruck results for the weekend has him comfortably on top. It's easier to make a tackle than hit rucks.

Big deal, he was terrible against England and Wales. His tackle and carry stats are awful and he just isn't physical enough for a 6.

His ruck stats are high because he spends a lot of time in the ruck or on the wing yet his turnover stats are low for the amount of time spent there.

Sometimes I think he gets MOTM awards because they don't know who else to give it to and he has a knack of looking busy.

His only saving grace is he was marginally better than SOB but that isn't saying a lot really.

Peter Stringer wrote:This result has been coming for a while. Joe Schmidt is the worst thing to have happened to Irish rugby. His Leinster lap dogs and fake news outlets talk of his achievements, but what has he really done? He has players who are unable to think for themselves and are robots to his almost Gestapo like way he runs his team. I see people who have no confidence in their own abilities with all intelligence and flair drilled out of them. Just ask Carlos Spencer how Schmidt deals with flair. Look at POM- the man was born world class. A world class infant who burst out of the womb like he was smashing a ruck. A man who walked at 6 weeks old. A man who ate steak before he had teeth. A man who sang Amhrán na bhFiann before he could even speak. He was born world class and will die world class. And Schmidt has crushed him. It’s outrageous.

This man was hounded from New Zealand due to his failures at the Blues. But he is from New Zealand so he of course must be progressive and all knowing and wise. He is a farce and has been found out. You’d never get a performance from a Declan Kidney team. Maybe some of you Schmidt evangelicals can design your funny little clocks for when he leaves his role. You disgrace time itself and besmirch the Julian calendar.

The man needs to go. He has hounded Simon Zebo from these shores, a once in a lifetime talent, in a similar fashion to the Wild Geese. Generations for Irishmen and women will sing ballads about his treatment and he will be lauded as a martyr to the whims of the West British media in the D4 mafia.

It breaks my heart that he will replaced by a Sassenach. This is not what our forefathers died for. Connolly, Emmett, Pearse, Ó Cléirigh, Plunkett, the early of Tyrone & Tyrconnell, Ger Earls, Graham Norton: this is not that proud Irishmen have this blood, sweat, tears and loves for. For shame IRFU, for shame.

Geez what are you chewing pal. 61 wins from 79 vs a mere 50% for kidney. Pretty sure Schmidt wouldnt cough up more than 60-0 in NZ. Kidney was hopeless.

Im fairly sure he was being ironic or a pastiche/parody of a Munster fan.

That said for all his failures Kidney still won a alam and world coach of the year in 09 so he wasnt completely hopeless at all.

Listen, I’ll make it easy for you D4 rugby parvenu. It’s simple grammar. It’s hiding in plain sight only you are all too one eyed to see it.

Schmidt, minus the C, M & D. What does it spell? What he is. It’s right there in front of your noses. Schmidt must go!

Hits?

...after hit after hit after...?

Oh... clever. Its good being corrected by good well thought out logic now and then.