England v Scotland 6N Round 5 Saturday 16th March

by **BigGee** Sun 10 Mar 2019, 6:43 pm

First topic message reminder :

England v Scotland
6N Round 5
Saturday 16th March
Twickenham Stadium
London

KO 17.00

Well here we are at the final round of matches and three teams can still come out on top following Ireland's demolition of France this afternoon.

England have the advantage of playing last and will know what they have to do, if Wales have not already wrapped it up with a Grand Slam earlier in the afternoon. That actually might be Scotland's best chance of getting anything out of this game if England get distracted about what is going on else where, particularly if they find playing for second spot a distraction, knowing Wales have already wrapped things up.

On paper, this is only going to be an English win, the only question being by how much.

Scotland have had an awful championship, where just about everything that could have gone wrong. They are only playing for pride, but history tells us that sides that are done at this stage in the competition, rarely have anything left in the tank for the final game.

It is not as if Scotland have any form at Twickenham either, we have not won there since 1983 (did I ever mention that I was there!). We had had a crap season and no-one gave us much of a chance that year either if I remember, then the following year we won the GS. Can I see that happening this time though?

Only in my dreams!

So what do both sides hope to get from the game?

England clearly want a BP victory, some revenge for last year and hopefully a championship. They would also like to show the continued emergence of such players as Cockanasiga, who could be pivotal to them doing well in the WC.

Scotland, despite whatever spin they put on the game, might just be happy with a decent performance and continued development of some of our young starlets. We took another pile of injuries this weekend and getting a half decent competitive side onto the pitch is going to be a challenge in itself. Still, this exposure might be the making of young Hastings, Bradbury, Graham, McDowell, Skinner, Ritchie and anyone else who gets to play, down the line.

Test rugby is a hard old place to earn your living and they will likely be finding that out next weekend.

England

Daly, Nowell, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell, Youngs; Moon, George, Sinckler, Launchbury, Kruis, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Cole, Shields, Hughes, Spencer, Ford, Te'o

Scotland:

Maitland; Graham, Grigg, Johnson, McGuigan; Russell, Price; Dell, McInally (capt), Nel; Toolis, Gilchrist; Skinner, Watson, Bradbury.

Replacements: Brown, Reid, Berghan, J Gray, Strauss, Laidlaw, Hastings, Harris

by tigertattie Wed 13 Mar 2019, 12:51 pm

bsando wrote:Has Hamish Watson ever had a ball ripped from him? That I would be interested to know

Maro Itoje tried it once after Watson received a roundhouse kick from Chuck Norris. Legend has it that Chuck Norris's foot broke in three places and Maro Itoje was left mentally scarred after failing to rip the ball of a smiling Watson. To this day it's believed that this is why Itoje no longer gets involved in close quarter work and instead claps enthusiastically at the back of the ruck.

by SecretFly Wed 13 Mar 2019, 12:52 pm

Oh God...someone mentioned Eddie Butler. Since the BBC lost exclusive rights to 6N, I don't think I've watched any of their game buildup sections....until last weekend.
Christ, when you come back to him after such a long absence..... that poetic hush and delivery... every word buttered heavily with histrionic bombast. I had to switch back to the Irish presentation. That stuff really has had its day. Don't mind the slow mo footage or anything...but maybe done straight to some music.... no voiceover.

by **RDW** Wed 13 Mar 2019, 12:59 pm

Apparently Bradbury led Scotland's carries, metres made and tackles against Wales, whilst giving away no penalties.

He's not making standout carries and hits like we've seen him do for Edinburgh but this is a big step up - he's certainly doing the building blocks of what you need from your 6.

by tigertattie Wed 13 Mar 2019, 1:04 pm

Just for Mr Fly, some phrases likely to be used in the next montage

(to be read in the style of Eddie Butler)

"Scotland starting brightly but then the flames of desire start to fade, but the spark of flair remains"

"Wales, winning, winning, winning......, can the big one be won?"

"England, a winning left hook against Ireland, a winning right hook against Les Blues, a rocking Welsh counter punch for a loss, then a resounding victory over a plucky Azzuri"

"Italy, oh italy, each year a corner could be turned, each year the road leads right back to the bottom of the table"

"Les blues, zay are zee team of zee yester year az thee play with thee galic flair one week zen thee play like a 2 day old baguette zee following week, and non, I do not think it eez racist to put on a French acc-cont whenever I am speekin about les Blues."

by No9 Wed 13 Mar 2019, 1:08 pm

Found this a laugh... https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/47556116

by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 13 Mar 2019, 1:13 pm

tigertattie wrote:Just for Mr Fly, some phrases likely to be used in the next montage

(to be read in the style of Eddie Butler)

"Scotland starting brightly but then the flames of desire start to fade, but the spark of flair remains"

"Wales, winning, winning, winning......, can the big one be won?"

"England, a winning left hook against Ireland, a winning right hook against Les Blues, a rocking Welsh counter punch for a loss, then a resounding victory over a plucky Azzuri"

"Italy, oh italy, each year a corner could be turned, each year the road leads right back to the bottom of the table"

"Les blues, zay are zee team of zee yester year az thee play with thee galic flair one week zen thee play like a 2 day old baguette zee following week, and non, I do not think it eez racist to put on a French acc-cont whenever I am speekin about les Blues."

Butler being Butler, he would try and say it in French and I suspect your French accent is closer.

bsando,

Has Hamish Watson ever had a ball ripped from him? That I would be interested to know. I would be very surprised if he hadn't, the way he pinballs into people, so upright with the ball exposed, he is just asking for it to be ripped or knocked forward.

by robbo277 Wed 13 Mar 2019, 1:38 pm

lostinwales wrote:
robbo277 wrote:....

Cole for Williams settles the first of many selection decisions for Eddie. Is that Cole nailed on as second choice now? Or does Eddie like having a bit of stability off the bench the way Marler used to bring? Having Hartley and Cole as bench options for the World Cup knockout stages could deliver stability, leadership and experience at the close of games when it's needed.

...

For all his importance in EJ's earlier years I am not sure that we are missing Hartley at all, and I also wonder if he'll be fit enough anyway. Cole on the other hand is looking better as the understudy than he had for a while as no.1

We're 2 points up in a World Cup quarter-final against Wales or Australia in the last 10 minutes. We have a lineout on our own 5m line. Who do you want throwing it?

It sounds wrong to say Hartley and "clear head", but he has the experience and the leadership to be invaluable in these situations, and also is the best thrower in the England squad. Losing your own set-piece in such a situation would put you under massive pressure.

by bsando Wed 13 Mar 2019, 1:49 pm

tigertattie wrote:
bsando wrote:Has Hamish Watson ever had a ball ripped from him? That I would be interested to know

Maro Itoje tried it once after Watson received a roundhouse kick from Chuck Norris. Legend has it that Chuck Norris's foot broke in three places and Maro Itoje was left mentally scarred after failing to rip the ball of a smiling Watson. To this day it's believed that this is why Itoje no longer gets involved in close quarter work and instead claps enthusiastically at the back of the ruck.

by Guest Wed 13 Mar 2019, 1:55 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
miaow wrote:I'm struggling to see the issue here?
Now that you agree Care didn't actually lose it, the comparison seems even more apt..

And you see to be coming from the sensationalist corner of the internet that reads what you want to read... Erm

Nothing to do with winners or losers either.

by TightHEAD Wed 13 Mar 2019, 2:23 pm

bsando wrote:Has Hamish Watson ever had a ball ripped from him? That I would be interested to know

Follow him into the toilets and take a look.

by bsando Wed 13 Mar 2019, 2:26 pm

TightHEAD wrote:
bsando wrote:Has Hamish Watson ever had a ball ripped from him? That I would be interested to know

Follow him into the toilets and take a look.

At Twickenham? No chance

by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Mar 2019, 2:27 pm

Think he read your point that Care absolutely lost it before qualifying what you meant a couple of posts later Miaow.

by Guest Wed 13 Mar 2019, 2:33 pm

I'm not getting sucked into this and making the mods' job more difficult 7.5. Pointless discussion - the podcast is there for all the listen to. I recommend listening from 26 minutes.

by robbo277 Wed 13 Mar 2019, 2:42 pm

There was a pod earlier in the tournament where Ugo and Chris were trying to qualify what makes a "test match animal", an expression that is creeping more and more into the regular rugby parlance. In this pod, Danny Care was quite insistent that he qualified as a test match animal, and seemed to get quite upset that he wasn't in this criteria.

He was obviously playing up to it and trying to be entertaining in that instance. Are you sure it's not the same in this situation with Wilson? Wilson is 6 inches and 20kg heavier than Care, if it was a boxing match they wouldn't let it happen.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Mar 2019, 2:44 pm

Just simply stating he's not reading what he wants to read and so it's unfair to say that about him. But you're correct the mods asked for the care talk to stop.

by SecretFly Wed 13 Mar 2019, 2:52 pm

A discussion on a specific player is now censured? And yet chat of Hamish Watson's personal organs gets splashed all over 606.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Mar 2019, 2:56 pm

Nah. Just the pod cast thing. Talking about Jones putting the focus on integrating a new scrum half in is still allowed.

by Guest Wed 13 Mar 2019, 3:23 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just simply stating he's not reading what he wants to read and so it's unfair to say that about him. But you're correct the mods asked for the care talk to stop.

No no, you're wrong. He stated I agreed with him. I didn't and haven't. Quite simple, hence reading what he wants to read. Best not to get involved - thought you wanted to stick to the rugby?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Mar 2019, 3:25 pm

Yup you clarified your point that Care didn't lose it. Leave it at that.
Personally happy to see Spencer come in. Just a shame he's been being Wigglesworth for so long at Saracens.
Bit of a double edged sword with Saracens though. They produce a lot of good players great coaching but then some pathways are blocked for longer than I'd personally like. Spencer and mallins should be further down the line for me.

by **RDW** Wed 13 Mar 2019, 3:30 pm

You're both doing a good job of saying you're moving on without actually moving on...

by Guest Wed 13 Mar 2019, 3:31 pm

Haha, yep, true.

by **RDW** Wed 13 Mar 2019, 3:41 pm

I see it as progress though - at least you're both intending to move on...! Laugh

by tigertattie Wed 13 Mar 2019, 3:46 pm

Maro Itoje, Chuck Norris and Hamish Watson are having a staring contest. Having blinked already, Itoje and Norris have slunk off to mope behind a rock, Watson meanwhile is still staring, still winning.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Mar 2019, 3:46 pm

I had a pop at Saracens while tipping my cap at the development if that helps.

by Guest Wed 13 Mar 2019, 3:51 pm

RDW wrote:I see it as progress though - at least you're both intending to move on...!

It's Brexit-esque. Talking about planning future talks about moving on.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 13 Mar 2019, 4:09 pm

SecretFly wrote:Oh God...someone mentioned Eddie Butler. Since the BBC lost exclusive rights to 6N, I don't think I've watched any of their game buildup sections....until last weekend.
Christ, when you come back to him after such a long absence..... that poetic hush and delivery... every word buttered heavily with histrionic bombast. I had to switch back to the Irish presentation. That stuff really has had its day. Don't mind the slow mo footage or anything...but maybe done straight to some music.... no voiceover.

I'd much rather just watch straight brief highlights of the previous round than all that nonsense. The problem with the montages, where they take a try and splice a load of different camera angles together, some at real speed, some slowed down, is that you lose all sense of the move. It genuinely spoils things. So they're making unnecessary work for themselves, and the end product is worse than if they'd just used the original footage.

by TightHEAD Wed 13 Mar 2019, 4:57 pm

Eng 38 Scot 12

by jimbopip Wed 13 Mar 2019, 7:36 pm

miaow wrote:
RDW wrote:I see it as progress though - at least you're both intending to move on...!

It's Brexit-esque. Talking about planning future talks about moving on.

As Churchill said, "A fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."

by BigTrevsbigmac Thu 14 Mar 2019, 6:24 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Oh God...someone mentioned Eddie Butler. Since the BBC lost exclusive rights to 6N, I don't think I've watched any of their game buildup sections....until last weekend.
Christ, when you come back to him after such a long absence..... that poetic hush and delivery... every word buttered heavily with histrionic bombast. I had to switch back to the Irish presentation. That stuff really has had its day. Don't mind the slow mo footage or anything...but maybe done straight to some music.... no voiceover.

I'd much rather just watch straight brief highlights of the previous round than all that nonsense. The problem with the montages, where they take a try and splice a load of different camera angles together, some at real speed, some slowed down, is that you lose all sense of the move. It genuinely spoils things. So they're making unnecessary work for themselves, and the end product is worse than if they'd just used the original footage.

No no - it’s just Eddie Butler. My pet hate is his guttural over emphasised French surnames. vomit

by **George Carlin** Thu 14 Mar 2019, 8:54 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Oh God...someone mentioned Eddie Butler. Since the BBC lost exclusive rights to 6N, I don't think I've watched any of their game buildup sections....until last weekend.
Christ, when you come back to him after such a long absence..... that poetic hush and delivery... every word buttered heavily with histrionic bombast. I had to switch back to the Irish presentation. That stuff really has had its day. Don't mind the slow mo footage or anything...but maybe done straight to some music.... no voiceover.

I'd much rather just watch straight brief highlights of the previous round than all that nonsense. The problem with the montages, where they take a try and splice a load of different camera angles together, some at real speed, some slowed down, is that you lose all sense of the move. It genuinely spoils things. So they're making unnecessary work for themselves, and the end product is worse than if they'd just used the original footage.

No no - it’s just Eddie Butler. My pet hate is his guttural over emphasised French surnames.

For me, I think that he tends to reach for Bill McLaren-eque whimsy but never quite brings it off.

by Ricardo74 Thu 14 Mar 2019, 8:59 am

I assume England and Scotland announce the sides today? Does anyone know what time?

(I can't stand Eddie Butler either!).

by **BigGee** Thu 14 Mar 2019, 9:05 am

Roberston in the Dialy Mail and he is usually on the money, is suggesting Skinner at No.8nwith Watson and Bradbury alongside him. That would be pretty tough on Ritchie, but presumably he would bench. Skinner at 8 seems a Tooniesque kind of punt, but probably one that is worth a try, he is big, fast and mobile and has a good pair of hands. A very good engine as well.

JG is also dropped with Toolis and Gilchrist starting. The bench will be interesting if this is true, he could put two back rowers on the bench and move Skinner forward if he wanted to, which might give us more bench impact.

Sam Johnson comes back in as well and partners Grigg in the centres.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 14 Mar 2019, 9:14 am

From Six Natiosn website:

France change six for their trip to Rome, Fofana returns from injury
- England to follow at 10:30AM, and Wales at midday
- Then Ireland (2PM), Scotland (1:45PM) and Italy (1PM) follow this afternoon

by Ricardo74 Thu 14 Mar 2019, 9:26 am

LondonTiger wrote:From Six Natiosn website:

France change six for their trip to Rome, Fofana returns from injury
- England to follow at 10:30AM, and Wales at midday
- Then Ireland (2PM), Scotland (1:45PM) and Italy (1PM) follow this afternoon

Good work, LT. You've got that google-fu down to a tee.

So, what do we know... Spencer straight onto the bench. Where are the main questions? Loose head, blind side flank, 12/13 (perm two from Te'o, Slade and Manu), and 14 (Cokanasiga or Nowell?), second row cover on the bench?

Reckon the rest is pretty clear.

by Scarpia Thu 14 Mar 2019, 9:29 am

SecretFly wrote:
Oh God...someone mentioned Eddie Butler. .... that poetic hush and delivery... every word buttered heavily with histrionic bombast.

Wonderful irony, Secret.

by **George Carlin** Thu 14 Mar 2019, 9:31 am

TightHEAD wrote:
bsando wrote:Has Hamish Watson ever had a ball ripped from him? That I would be interested to know

Follow him into the toilets and take a look.

Don't mess with the Mish

by No 7&1/2 Thu 14 Mar 2019, 9:44 am

I'd say that genge or moon is a question as well Ricardo.

by Ricardo74 Thu 14 Mar 2019, 9:45 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd say that genge or moon is a question as well Ricardo.

Is that not "loose head"?

England v Scotland 6N Round 5 Saturday 16th March - Page 5 3513163098

by No 7&1/2 Thu 14 Mar 2019, 9:49 am

Yes it is. Apologies.

by Ricardo74 Thu 14 Mar 2019, 9:52 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes it is. Apologies.

None required! Yeah, it's a question. Moon regarded as a more "solid" option in the set piece, but offering less in the loose? Start with him and bring on the Baby Rhino in the second half to challenge tired Scottish legs? Or unleash Genge from the start Smile

I'd start with the same front row as last week, so that's Genge from the start. I just think him, George and Sinkler are so dynamic and confrontational that we'd be missing a trick if we didn't go with it while they're all fresh.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 14 Mar 2019, 9:58 am

I think genge is better in the scrum as well personally. I understand the slow integration into international life and the fact his carrying can be lethal later in the game but I'd be happy to see him start.

by Ricardo74 Thu 14 Mar 2019, 10:03 am

Straight choice between Wilson and Shields for the 6 shirt?

I'd pick Wilson, although I won't be upset if Shields gets the nod. Don't think I'm doing anyone a disservice by not considering them?

Centres - perm two from three? Also affects the bench to an extent I think. If EJ goes with Manu & Slade I can see Te'o missing out entirely (as Faz will likely go to 12 later on in the game). On the flip side, if we go with Te'o and Manu, Slade offers cover across the line from the bench and a different option later on. I guess I expect EJ to go with Te'o and Manu, though.

Wing: well, he's got to start Big Joe, hasn't he?

by **LondonTiger** Thu 14 Mar 2019, 10:06 am

Moon is probably more consistent in the scrums, but Genge can be more destructive. I do feel the baby rhino is the better scrummager especially when he scrummages and drives through the opposition, rather than trying to sucker the opposing TH into conceding a penalty. However refs can get upset with him.

by Guest Thu 14 Mar 2019, 10:08 am

Eddie Butler used to be entertaining but 1. It's an old act now and the sensationalism in sport is well overdone already and 2. He's going a bit senile/losing his sharpness so there are huge 'pauses' as he thinks about what to say. The latter is more approporiate during commentary than voiceovers, but it's not much good when a try is being scored and there's a good 3 second silence beforehand because he's trying to be profound.

Best rugby commentator is Andrew Cotter for me. Nice posh Scottish voice, calls it 'in time', not overly biased, and knows how to have a laugh as well - pretty sure he still calls Tomasso Allen 'Tommy', for instance.

by tigertattie Thu 14 Mar 2019, 10:09 am

George Carlin wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
bsando wrote:Has Hamish Watson ever had a ball ripped from him? That I would be interested to know

Follow him into the toilets and take a look.
Don't mess with the Mish

In all seriousness, has Hamish shown the way to beat the blitz defence (without kicking)?

All coaches shout at you to run hard and run low. Now being a member of the big lump brigade, I always found this bloomin difficult as to run hinged at the waist compeltely ruined my ability to run (and it was already a low ability).

It seems that when you run low like this, your objective is to make your opponent tackle you low and if they get it wrong, you can pump the legs and keep on going. Watson runs upright and uses his arm and leg strength to fend of tacklers but also his pace is used to get to the tackler alomst as if to get there before they are ready to tackle.

Have we all been coached wrong all these years? Should we be running upright (like normal people run)? You clearly need to have a strong grip on the ball if you're going to do this

by Guest Thu 14 Mar 2019, 10:19 am

Hamish Watson is the perfect mix of being stronger than his size suggests, agile enough to change the point of contact in his favour at the last moment, and pacey enough to get outside the last man.

For me, he's just a very 'natural' ball carrier. Insane upper body strength, as that video shows. So much emphasis is on size and strength but, ultimately, there are some players who are just big carriers. He'd probably make an excellent wrestler/martial artist.

The South African, Kwagga Smith is it, looks a similar sort of player in a similar sort of build to Watson.

by robbo277 Thu 14 Mar 2019, 10:28 am

LondonTiger wrote:Moon is probably more consistent in the scrums, but Genge can be more destructive. I do feel the baby rhino is the better scrummager especially when he scrummages and drives through the opposition, rather than trying to sucker the opposing TH into conceding a penalty. However refs can get upset with him.

Based on last week I'd agree. Genge was on form and had his opposite man on toast, whereas I think Moon traded penalties with the replacement tight-head in a more even battle.

I was thinking of starting Genge, but the more I think about it I lean towards Moon, especially if Cole is our tight-head option on the bench. Moon and Cole as a partnership probably don't offer enough around the park, especially with the ball. Genge would also have a tough time with Nel, but if Moon can just scrummage for parity then we can bring on Genge to attack in the second half. So I'd give Genge a good 20 minutes at the end of the game, the rest of the season with Leicester and then he can get a start in one or two of the warm-ups to see if he's World Cup ready.

For the other places, I'd have another look at Shields and Te'o. I'd probably tell them they're playing for World Cup places. Slade and Wilson did everything asked of them in the first 3 weeks, now they need to show they can play at the same level.

I'd also keep Cokanasiga at 14 and keep Hughes on the bench in that 19 shirt.

by Ricardo74 Thu 14 Mar 2019, 10:32 am

Moon
George
Sinckler
Launch
Kruis
Wilson
BV
Curry
Youngs
Faz
May
Manu
Slade
Nowell
Daly

LCD
Genge
Cole
Shields
Hughes
Spencer
Ford
Te'o

by **LondonTiger** Thu 14 Mar 2019, 10:33 am

England starting XV (523 caps)
15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 29 caps), 14 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 32 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps), 12 Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 31 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 44 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 69 caps) (captain), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 84 caps), 1 Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 36 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 21 caps), 4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 57 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 31 caps), 6 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 12 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 9 caps), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 40 caps)

Finishers (203 caps)
16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 10 caps), 17 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 8 caps), 18 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 84 caps), 19 Brad Shields (Wasps, 7 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 21 caps), 21 Ben Spencer (Saracens, 2 caps), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps), 23 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors 17 caps).

by Ricardo74 Thu 14 Mar 2019, 10:34 am

Well you got Moon right, Robbo!

I was wrong, and Te'o is on the bench despite Slade and Manu starting.

Nowell gets the nod over... hang on, where the hell is Cokanasiga?????

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