England v Scotland 6N Round 5 Saturday 16th March

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England v Scotland
6N Round 5
Saturday 16th March
Twickenham Stadium
London

KO 17.00

Well here we are at the final round of matches and three teams can still come out on top following Ireland's demolition of France this afternoon.

England have the advantage of playing last and will know what they have to do, if Wales have not already wrapped it up with a Grand Slam earlier in the afternoon. That actually might be Scotland's best chance of getting anything out of this game if England get distracted about what is going on else where, particularly if they find playing for second spot a distraction, knowing Wales have already wrapped things up.

On paper, this is only going to be an English win, the only question being by how much.

Scotland have had an awful championship, where just about everything that could have gone wrong. They are only playing for pride, but history tells us that sides that are done at this stage in the competition, rarely have anything left in the tank for the final game.

It is not as if Scotland have any form at Twickenham either, we have not won there since 1983 (did I ever mention that I was there!). We had had a crap season and no-one gave us much of a chance that year either if I remember, then the following year we won the GS. Can I see that happening this time though?

Only in my dreams!

So what do both sides hope to get from the game?

England clearly want a BP victory, some revenge for last year and hopefully a championship. They would also like to show the continued emergence of such players as Cockanasiga, who could be pivotal to them doing well in the WC.

Scotland, despite whatever spin they put on the game, might just be happy with a decent performance and continued development of some of our young starlets. We took another pile of injuries this weekend and getting a half decent competitive side onto the pitch is going to be a challenge in itself. Still, this exposure might be the making of young Hastings, Bradbury, Graham, McDowell, Skinner, Ritchie and anyone else who gets to play, down the line.

Test rugby is a hard old place to earn your living and they will likely be finding that out next weekend.



England


Daly, Nowell, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell, Youngs; Moon, George, Sinckler, Launchbury, Kruis, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Cole, Shields, Hughes, Spencer, Ford, Te'o



Scotland:

Maitland; Graham, Grigg, Johnson, McGuigan; Russell, Price; Dell, McInally (capt), Nel; Toolis, Gilchrist; Skinner, Watson, Bradbury.

Replacements: Brown, Reid, Berghan, J Gray, Strauss, Laidlaw, Hastings, Harris

As a Scotland fan, i empathise.

If we continue the form from that second half into the world cup i feel a lot better about our prospects.

It seems to be an attitude problem with England. When they dominate they think the game's done. , like Scotland did with Italy. You'll bounce back from this though. To pull it back to a draw was a fair representation of the whole game.

I’m knackered.

Our team is an enigma. We’re great or we’re garbage. We can’t seem to play for 80 mins.

If you offered me a draw at twickers this time last week I’d have bitten your hand off. But it feels like we blew it again with our indiscipline allowing England to get a kick to the corner then we messed up defending the oncoming attack.

Given the first half terrible terrible play, we turned it around but the second half we had the chance to win at twickers for the first time in my rugby watching career and we couldn’t do it.

Half proud half disappointed.

All we can do is write this year off and look toward the World Cup with the return of Hogg and some centres that can defend.

Genuinely never seen a game of rugby like that. Shocker.

I don't even know how to process that - should I be happy, disappointed??

Crazy crazy game. Well done to Scotland, you boys were incredible in the 2nd half.

Interesting to hear Russell say he was arguing with Townsend at halftime about not wanting to kick possession away, I think somebody may be in trouble later.

Suicidal tactics by England in the 2nd half though. The constant offloading and forcing things when they're not on. If we had a real leader we'd have slowed things down, attacked the corners and tightened the defence. Instead our captain throws 2 intercepts allowing Scotland to get right back in the game.

Lost for words.

Just thinking about Russell's try - it's not so long ago that would have been deemed a knock-on in the laws. Good law change!

What an insane game to wake up to and read about.

It might be a draw, and no one is really happy about it. But the humorous conmebts on here and the generally well natures thread as a whole has done a whole lot of good for my mood this weekend. Thank you everyone and I look forward to watching this insane game when its on

The Great Aukster wrote:Just thinking about Russell's try - it's not so long ago that would have been deemed a knock-on in the laws. Good law change!

?? how so? I though if you regathered the ball before it hit the floor/another player it was always OK?

In all honesty would of thought there was more chance of Ireland getting a draw against Wales. Than Scotland getting a draw against England.

Finn Rusell well deserved MOM for his performance in the second half, really pulled the strings for Scotland's come back.
I have said it before no one should take any team in the 6ns for granted.

Well played Scotland and very hard luck. Maybe next year.

RDW wrote:I don't even know how to process that - should I be happy, disappointed??

Ecstatic ya'ul fecker. Ecstatic. Should have won it in the end.

Amazing.

Scottish pride restored with a vengeance.  

How are you?

tigertattie wrote:I’m knackered.

Our team is an enigma. We’re great or we’re garbage. We can’t seem to play for 80 mins.

If you offered me a draw at twickers this time last week I’d have bitten your hand off. But it feels like we blew it again with our indiscipline allowing England to get a kick to the corner then we messed up defending the oncoming attack.

Given the first half terrible terrible play, we turned it around but the second half we had the chance to win at twickers for the first time in my rugby watching career and we couldn’t do it.

Half proud half disappointed.

All we can do is write this year off and look toward the World Cup with the return of Hogg and some centres that can defend.

Succinct. It was madness. But, against all the odds, in Twickers, against a rampant England, missing 7/8 of your 1st-teamers,
ye showed massive balls, at the highest end.

That can only make ye stronger going in to the RWC.

When your 1st-teamers come back, they will have serious competition for their positions, in some cases. That's healthy.

Developing depth an ting. Talk about that.

Well done Scotland. Believe.

Farrell and Youngs game management sucks

Surely Eddie should go after this fiasco?

Gibson wrote:

RDW wrote:I don't even know how to process that - should I be happy, disappointed??

Ecstatic ya'ul fecker. Ecstatic. Should have won it in the end.

Amazing.

Scottish pride restored with a vengeance.  

How are you?

Drunk.

TightHEAD wrote:Who put the tv on at halftime in The changing room, clearly they found out Wales had won

Yes England and Eddie till obsessed over Wales even while playing....maybe thats the problem?

Stunning match, simply one of the best I have seen. That Scottish comeback was excellent but fair dues to England for wanting it right up to the end. A draw is bitter for both teams but the right result for a neutral like me.

Both teams played incredible rugby in each half, tbf. Simply can't wait for the WC now.

RDW wrote:

Gibson wrote:

RDW wrote:I don't even know how to process that - should I be happy, disappointed??

Ecstatic ya'ul fecker. Ecstatic. Should have won it in the end.

Amazing.

Scottish pride restored with a vengeance.  

How are you?

Drunk.

Gibson, welcome back. You have been missed. I was reading a Rory Gallagher biography this morning and now you re-appear: doncha just love synchronicity?


Today was the definitive moral victory: but for whom? Today was the classic kick in the gerbils: but for whom?


I am very surprised that no-one has trotted out the cliché, but it really was a game of two halves.

Mad game.

Farrell proving again that he's not Wilko and he's not 'top level' captain material. The worst I've seen Farrell play for some time...and Sexton as well, in the space of a few hours.

Eddie Jones is a joke. Clearly the responsibility for this lies with him and his inability to prepare his team properly before the game. The mindset was all wrong - against the very ethics of rugby, about humiliating the opposition, laughing at them during the first half. Pro sport has changed the values of course but some things remain. If not for the values, then clearly it didn't work from a mentality side of things. The idea that England need more arrogant self-belief, which is what I assume he meant in his post match comments, is delusional. To let slip a 31 point lead is insane.

Credit to Scotland. Showed how they can be brilliant when just tearing up the rule book and accepting they can't really play rugby other than off first phase/in the next few phases afterwards - during which they're intermittently brilliant and the best 6Ns team to watch. Darcy and Johnson are excellent, Grigg showed you don't have to be brilliant to be effective/game changing with his spot blitzes in the second half. Many more players to pick out too. Other plus points: set piece was excellent. Scrum solid and marginally dominant (could have utilised this better I thought) and maul defence great throughout.

For England, we saw the best and the worst. The first half was the team that can blitz anyone in the world and potentially win a RWC. The second half showed the cracks in the team become fissures: the lack of leadership, the arrogance that's rubbed off from/been encouraged by Eddie in the week, the inability to play on the back foot (discipline, basic skills, tactics).

All told, wouldn't really read too much into this game in the long run. A bit of an anomaly in that England wanted to tear Scotland apart, did it, and then became complacent/got caught out. Great game for the neutral.

Yeah, well apart from the psychology and coaching manners, the real thing that happened in that second half is that Scotland simply played better than England and deserved every crack they got at that try line. Their own mistakes returned to haunt them in the end but England are no invincible - so far they've been an exceptional 50 to 60 minute team. But a game is 80, as the Welsh might say.

miaow wrote:Mad game.

Farrell proving again that he's not Wilko and he's not 'top level' captain material. The worst I've seen Farrell play for some time...and Sexton as well, in the space of a few hours.

Eddie Jones is a joke. Clearly the responsibility for this lies with him and his inability to prepare his team properly before the game. The mindset was all wrong - against the very ethics of rugby, about humiliating the opposition, laughing at them during the first half. Pro sport has changed the values of course but some things remain. If not for the values, then clearly it didn't work from a mentality side of things. The idea that England need more arrogant self-belief, which is what I assume he meant in his post match comments, is delusional. To let slip a 31 point lead is insane.

Credit to Scotland. Showed how they can be brilliant when just tearing up the rule book and accepting they can't really play rugby other than off first phase/in the next few phases afterwards - during which they're intermittently brilliant and the best 6Ns team to watch. Darcy and Johnson are excellent, Grigg showed you don't have to be brilliant to be effective/game changing with his spot blitzes in the second half. Many more players to pick out too. Other plus points: set piece was excellent. Scrum solid and marginally dominant (could have utilised this better I thought) and maul defence great throughout.

For England, we saw the best and the worst. The first half was the team that can blitz anyone in the world and potentially win a RWC. The second half showed the cracks in the team become fissures: the lack of leadership, the arrogance that's rubbed off from/been encouraged by Eddie in the week, the inability to play on the back foot (discipline, basic skills, tactics).

All told, wouldn't really read too much into this game in the long run. A bit of an anomaly in that England wanted to tear Scotland apart, did it, and then became complacent/got caught out. Great game for the neutral.

Can't disagree with any of that.

Dont read much into the game agreed, but you can read a lot into the mindset of Jones and the main thing you can glean is that arrogance comes before performance with England. 3 wins from the 6 Nations, 2 effectively as Scots beat them in 80 minutes. Yet all we really hear is how its their tourney to lose. And they do that very effectively. Someone needs to find a balance between Bomber's obsessive humility and Jones ingrained stupidity before England become a laughing stock of squandered talent.

Well they ain't a laughing stock yet. Let's wait till the World Cup is over lest the last laugh is left to Jones.

SecretFly wrote:Well they ain't a laughing stock yet.  Let's wait till the World Cup is over lest the last laugh is left to Jones.

oh sure they must still be fvouriets to win RWC after that

giving up a 31 pt lead in 40 minutes at home for a chance at the tournament against a seriously depleted side....bit like RWC 2015 again

not changing defensive pattern on the hoof to accommodate it???

you're correct they are not a laughing stock

See I don’t think there’s been any chat about how it’s England’s to lose. Most were convinced we wouldn’t beat Ireland first game.

They didn’t have a chance at the tournament either. You wouldn’t have seen that game from England if Wales had lost!

They never had a chance at the tournament...didn't Wales hoist the cup earlier?
Like any side, England aren't invincible and happen to have a coach that can sometimes shoot his mouth off (6N no stranger to that )..but they play a game you don't laugh at - that's my only point.

Given everything before and during the game, this has been a really good natured thread with no mud slinging, blaming the ref etc. Let’s keep it that way, please. Not everything is about Wales, let’s chat when you’ve sewn the World Cup up. Sounds like it’s nailed on, yet England are arrogant...

Who gives a damn about 'favourites'? We've seen in the last number of months that favouritism means nothing. England still have a side not to be laughed at. But you go ahead and laugh, pie. It's good for the health, I hear

GeordieFalcon wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:Geordie, you guys have nothing to complain about believe me!

We seen to start on fire...play insane rugby then lose track of the actual game plan.

Did it v Wales , Italy and now Scotland.

...and NZ. And several others. It doesn't have to be a weakness, but it is England's strength. Their size and power is best when dynamic - i.e. opening quarter when the players are at 'full tilt'. Much less effective later on, and some players have looked out on their feet second half, both against Wales and today. Generally, though, England can't seem to control a game, can't seem to play effective 10 man rugby/do what Ireland and Wales can with the phase plays without making mistakes. Coaching issue in my opinion.

BigGee wrote:England have really gone to sleep

I go back to my original point though, why start playing now!

As above...I'm not sure you cant say it's tactical/Scotland would want to start 31-0 down. But a combination of England switching off (maybe 70%) and not being fit/fresh enough to keep up with Scotland's running game after 40 minutes (30%) was what got them back into it. Makes sense to pick England off in the second half, but as I said, hard to read too much into this game...

NeilyBroon wrote:Why the f**k did the blazers get rid of vern?

This has been our worst 6Ns in about 6 years, including the 2015 whitewash, we at least were playing good rugby for large parts of that!

Is it the blazers? Or is it the suits...i.e. the business leaders, rather than the old boys, who want to play identity politics for 'the good of S C O T T I S H rugby'? It's the kind of 'brown sky thinking' that neglects to see the importance someone like Gatland has had in Wales - bringing through talent and winning titles and helpling to establish systems, from international down to the age grades. Fair play to Townsend as he played his part in turning it around - and Fly is right, to a point, in that Scotland did simply play much better than England and the psychology is secondary to that - but there's definitely something missing to his coaching. Set piece went well today, as I said, but Scotland still need a bit more bite in the side.

Great game that - very entertaining even from a non neutral point of view. Well done Scotland for almost completely turning the game on its head.

So I just got home after driving all afternoon getting back from my mother's funeral. Did I miss anything?

Sorry to hear that LIW.

In the context of your day, you missed very little.

Best wishes.

Sorry for saying Scotland would roll over. Think the celebration at the end says it all from England.

lostinwales wrote:So I just got home after driving all afternoon getting back from my mother's funeral. Did I miss anything?

Deepest sympathies.

My god. Possibly the best game of Rugby I’ve ever watched. I was at the pub and after 13 minutes felt I was in for a repeat of 2017 only to watch the many English supporters jaws drop in bewilderment. I jokingly said after McInally scores, “that’s the tipping point”, only for it to actually be the tipping point!

Yes that ten minute or so burst after half time was pretty freaky, the lead cut to nothing before one could regather from the previous try

I had three quid on Scotland to win the morning of the game. Was being mocked at 31-0 for being stupid. The odds crept up to 100/1 for Scotland to win as Farrell got the ball on the 10 metre line. I piped up if Scotland score next I’ll stick a fiver on them.

What followed was the most remarkable half of rugby I’m ever likely to see. Ford crossed the line costing me five hundred pounds and I didn’t care, firstly I don’t overly like gambling. It’s a bad habit, although I stress not remotely an addiction rather a biyearly event.

But more importantly when the world was lining up to write them off our boys showed the lot of them up. Ultimately a draw was the best result, it was the best game I’ve ever seen and draws a nice line under the last two years in which neither sides been the most sporting. I genuinely believe that when they click the two best teams in the six nations lie either side of Hadrian’s wall. And Russell is the best player in the world.

Maybe ever

maestegmafia wrote:

quinsforever wrote:hard to see this being close. scotland so weakened. englaldn hungry for revenge. and england so big. and so dangerous at 11, 14 and 15.

not getting carried away, but the last england side that had great forwards, solid set-piece, a world class kicker with good distribution at 10, and attacking options at 11, 13, 14, 15....well we know what they did.

this england team are a long way from the self belief required to hit the levels of that england team. but the ingredients might be there. biggest weakness for me is ben youngs ponderous distribution. if england aren't front foot he makes everything worse.

looking forward to the game saturday. taking my 9 yr old for his birthday! no beer and no swearing

England by 30. sorry.

Wales went into the match in a similar predicament in 2015 with regards injuries. We lost three more to injury during the game.

Far too much for pessimism from the Scots on here at the moment. Your team put in a superb performance on Saturday


You may be missing some of your best players but that doesn’t mean it is impossible for a fourth choice scrum half playing on the wing to chip through for a try and win the match as you shove the opposition maul into touch.

And with all that pre-match pessimism optimism shines through. A better defence and you’d have been winners today. Scotland should not be afraid of any team after that performance.

Well watching that in Edinburgh was the most pleasant of experiences. England s concentration just seemed to evaporate with nothing on the line only coming back to stop an embarrassment at the end.

England are basically playground bullies. If they can dominate you they will destroy you but when they come up up against someone with the physical strength and/or strength of character to stand up to them they reveal their soft underbelly.

Nah. More just switching off.

England have been a team of 2 halves in this 6ns. Play well in the first half get a bonus point then switch off in the second half thinking it is job done. 

England need to keep their minds on the game for the full 80 minutes or they will be out of the RWC in no time  at all. they might not make it out their pool playing like they did in the second half.

So I deliberately left it until today to give some detailed thoughts / sober up, and having thought about it more I still don't know what the feck to make of all that! Should I really be disappointed to draw at Twickenham, especially having gone 31 points down?? Strange, strange game. Here's an attempt at some key points:

1 - the second half does not make up for the first. It was utterly abysmal and the players and coaches should not forget about it due that what happened in the 2nd. We had zero urgency, appalling defensive organisation, and what's worse is we looked like we didn't care - there was no fight in anyone. It was a completely unacceptable display and it should be a real focus in the summer training caps to work out why that happened and fix it.

2 - our subs made a difference! The sight of Brown, Gray, Strauss and Laidlaw all coming on at the same time really lifted the team, and they made a big difference adding a lot of physicality and control.

3 - Sam Johnson has nailed down the 12 shirt. Yes he was caught out in defence in the first half but that was part of the overall defensive chaos we were showing. His try was a wonderful try - every bit as good as a Huw Jones special - and he really came of age as an international player.

4 - speaking of coming of age, Darcy Graham and Magnus Bradbury did the same. Looking towards the world cup, our back row and back 3 should have them in it.

5 - has toonie lost the dressing room following Russell's public confession that they had a halftime argument? I don't personally think so - to me it more shows that Russell has grown into a leader on the team and is taking responsibility for things. For what it's worth I was with Russell on this one.


That's it for now - will probably take a while for all that to really sink in!

Scarpia wrote:England are basically playground bullies. If they can dominate you they will destroy you but when they come up up against someone with the physical strength and/or strength of character to stand up to them they reveal their soft underbelly.

Farrell admitted after the game how shocked they were and he certainly looked it. Ever since Italy exposed England's lack of on-field wit two years ago, they seem vulnerable to getting trapped in unexpected headlights being turned on. Billy V for all his power looked slow and out of position when the onslaught came, maybe Launchbury, Kruis and George in that category too.

England didn't switch off at all, they intended to show Scotland how ruthless a team they had become after hints from both the Wales and Italy games that they were a team that eased off. What shocked Farrell was that the game plan that had been so successful in the first half didn't work more of the same magic in the second - or was he still coming to terms that he couldn't catch McInally?

If England play for 80 minutes consistently they’ll win the World Cup. If not, we’ll get more disappointments like yesterday and Wales. It’s not a lack of talent, just concentration it seems. It’s up to Eddie and the senior players to get that back on track. If it’s possible to start games too well, England certainly seem to do it!

Great game, really enjoyed that. More so than the Wales v Ireland game!

Not sure who to congratulate - so well done to both sides!

Wish all 6N games were like that. Although saying that we’d be bored after a while so maybe it’s good that games like this come along only rarely.

I have serious questions over Farrell now..

Scarpia wrote:England are basically playground bullies. If they can dominate you they will destroy you but when they come up up against someone with the physical strength and/or strength of character to stand up to them they reveal their soft underbelly.

Spot on.