England - the winter tours thread

[robbo277]

First topic message reminder :

We can breathe a little bit easier now!

However, Morgan has to find another 4 overs of spin. I assume he'll wait until he can put an extra man out at 40. Hopefully eek out another one before then to give us a bit more breathing space.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Nathaniel singles out Moeen, when 1-11 were all absolute dog***t

Forum love child Moeen has the fourth worst ODI bowling average of all time(minimum 50 wickets) coupled with he's averaging under 15 with the bat since 2018. One of the worst players to ever grace the three lions

[VTR]

He's hardly a lovechild. I think he's been out of form, but in form he can keep the middle overs quiet and can chip in with the bat every now and then. He's an important part of giving Morgan six bowling options. Obviously a day like today you could have eleven versions of Shane Warne and it wouldn't matter. Nor should we expect 7 down to save a batting catastrophe

[JDizzle]

One of the worst players to grace the Three Lions... how quickly we forget Jamie Dalrymple and Ian Blackwell!

[Gooseberry]

Something about how good England's batting is and how Chris Gayle is rubbish and shouldn't be playing.

Hmmmm.

[Gooseberry]

Yikes aside it's not a 1 in 10 meltdown...it's the second time this series, albeit even worse. Vaughn made exactly this point after the first loss, the way they stuffed up the champions trophy semi was a sudden batting meltdown. Their seems to be a collective panic set in, and No plan b for making a medium score if a huge one isn't on.

As for Moeen I'm in the middle as before. Yes he's not to blame for this game but at some point if he's not delivering with the bat England should look for someone who can (Denly who also has a better list A bowling record or Hales) or a legitimate second spinner. I've never been a fan but Liam Dawson still exists too.
Moeen is not irreplaceable and has been poor recently. His wicket taking record is genuinely awful in this format despite having a good economy rate.
That said when he's written off ( as I've done to him many times) he does seem to come back and do something remarkable for 6 months. But really if there's one player who stands out as weak in the side and picked for balance rather than qualiry it's him.

[VTR]

I'd say it's one in ten. I don't remember the other top order meltdown this series? There was the collapse chasing but some decent scores in there. This was a total failure, like that abject defeat to Sri Lanka, the woeful thrashing by South Africa and the CT semi final. Also, ironically, this was incredibly similar to the defeat to NZ at the last World Cup where it really got vocal that England were playing cricket from the age of the dinosaurs

[Duty281]

England's 'problem' is they back themselves to tee off and trust that at least one batsman will come good...usually it works, occasionally it leads to aberrations like today. Today England crumbled on a surface with fast bounce; such a wicket that they won't be facing back home.

Winning is a habit so it is disappointing that they've thrown this series away, but it's a different game in England, and the English will rightly go into the tournament as favourites to win the World Cup.

The only possible change I'd make to this England ODI side would be Archer coming in, and he should be looked at during the Pakistan series (if eligible). No qualms with Moeen in this form of the game - his economy rate is excellent, and England need six bowlers for variety purposes.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Probably not the worst thing to get a bit of a wake up call - everything has almost gone *too* well, so this bitter taste in their mouths heading into the summer should hopefully focus minds

[Pal Joey]

Winning is a habit so it is disappointing that they've thrown this series away, but it's a different game in England, and the English will rightly go into the tournament as favourites to win the World Cup.

True Duty, but be mindful that these off days can happen to any of the top teams during a World Cup. Happens all the time. Even at home.
Each team needs to respect the opposition whilst performing at the peak of a purple patch. They can never take any potential result for granted... otherwise they might be in for a nasty shock in 3 months time.

I still think any of England, India, Australia, NZ, SA, Pakistan or even WI could win it. So I hope you haven't booked the Cup engravers already?

Australia struggled to post a big score in Hyderabad in their 1st ODI but it was not the easiest of wickets to bat on. India bowled well.
I'm quietly impressed by the way our blokes stuck at it. They definitely seem to be growing in confidence and are not daunted by big match pressure.

Good to see most of the batsmen make starts (save for Finch... but his luck might improve) and our younger bowlers keeping their heads and constantly "asking questions" to the Indians. That should hold them in good stead for the WC campaign.

I believe this particular series is the best possible preparation for the team - even if they lose it; say 4-1, 3-2, whatever.
India grow an extra leg at home and Australia, so far, haven't looked that far off a decent team performance.

[Duty281]

Anyone who gets into the final four has at least a decent chance of winning it - so that leaves England, India, Australia, New Zealand, with maybe SA/Pak just behind. England are favourites because they have the most powerful batting line-up and they'll be most familiar with the conditions.

England just have to hope that their one or two 'blips' come in the group stage, not in the semi-final or final.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Most powerful batting line up is irrelevant. The side with the best bowling attack generally wins the big events.

India, Pakistan and Australia probably the three best bowling sides.

[alfie]

Watched the first hour of England's innings and feared the worst...not too surprised - though a little disappointed - to find they folded as easily as they did.
Fair to say it could function as a (useful) wake up call...but I'm afraid all the signs are that this outfit are convinced their best hopes lie in always playing the same way and they have no intention of introducing a "Plan B" : an approach which might be seen as admirable or arrogant depending on the result when it really matters.
The collapses happen a little too frequently for my taste , though I cannot deny the overall results have been very good. The team is probably still entitled to carry the tag of favorites going into the World Cup : not that such assessments make any difference once the action starts.
I think England have a decent chance of winning this year ; but I certainly wouldn't be betting on them at cramped odds. NZ appeal to me as other contenders ; India will probably thrive on the type of pitches likely to be used - and I'd never write off Australia despite their recent poor run. To say nothing of the always unpredictable Pakistan...

Am I less confident of an England success after these matches in West
Indies ? I'd have to say yes. Two failures out of four : one a thrown away winning chance (complacency ?) and the other just a rotten effort from the start suggest their reputation is just a little misleading.
I hope it was just a glitch. We will see...

[alfie]

Have to address the Moeen issue again (Nathaniel predictably using this game as another excuse to lambast his favorite target) .
Clearly the loss has little to do with Moeen. Maybe he could have done something more with the bat (I didn't see the later batting) but nobody else seems to have offered much resistance anyway. And with a paltry score like that he was unlikely to have an opportunity to bowl.
However I do wonder why he was even included in the team ? One , he's been off form these last few games , two , surely it was apparent before the game this pitch was likely to offer more to the pace men ? Wouldn't it have made more sense to adapt to the circumstances by selecting , say , Denly as a potential early bat if wickets fell - as indeed they did - in the first power play? He would still have offered a bowling alternate...  

Not suggesting that it would have changed the result ; but the fact that England seemingly refuse to make any change to their regular plan worries me ... I don't think even the best teams should be so inflexible. But Bayliss is in charge , not me

For Moeen himself , this changes nothing. Clearly they have him inked in as the 7/8 bat and one of two spinners ; and his bowling is likely to be more effective in England. And I don't mind that : despite a few failures here he has been a regular part of this generally successful ODI team. I do wonder who the reserve selections for the WC will be though ? Hope they are good with the oranges...

[Duty281]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/47435883

Archer will get a chance. Hopefully that chance is an extended run of a few games, not just a solitary appearance against Ireland.

[Gooseberry]

Alfie I can't help feeling you're becoming a Moeen apologist in response to Nathaniels hyperbolic comments.
This particular game his was largely and irrelevance yes (so why pick him could be asked) I don't think anyone's disputing that.
But it really isn't just a couple of games he's failed to contribute much in this format. Hes not taken a wicket in 4 games in thebwest indies, he only took 4 wickets on the spin friendly wickets in Sri Lanka, and only 2 against India. You have to go back 3 series to Austrlia to find games where he's been effective as a bowler. Admittedly 2 of the 3 India games he was very economic, but that's deserted him since the Sri Lanka tour to the point where Morgan doesn't even seem to trust him to bowl. Batting wise things are even worse ..46 against Scotland in a failed chase is his best since the west Indies series in 2017. Since last summer he's scored 12 or less in the majority of his innings, and rarely scored at more than a run a ball. He's averaging 17 with the bat over the last year. Thats just not good enough for a 7.
There comes a point where you have to look at what he's done since his recall...bowled very well against Austrlia then been a passenger in 3 series. At some point even die hard Moeen fans have to start getting nervous about his patchy form and overall record.
I don't agree with Nathaniel that he's total junk, the Australia series and some of his test perfomances the last two summer's show he has something but he has far too many extended spells of mediocrity for me to ever be comfortable with him. And England do have options, he does seem to be inked in but personally I'm not entirely happy with that and that plan B hasn't been explored.
England just seem to have chucked all their eggs in the Moeen basket regardless of whether he breaks any and makes any omletes or not. Some posters on here seem to have the same blind faith in him. If England are looking at areas they can improve then the number 7 spot is the obvious one.

As for Archer as I mentioned before this series I'm not fully bought into the hype train, but if he can deliver an extra atracking threat he's a useful addition to the squad with Tom Curran seemingly having blown he's limited chance. Let's though please remember his record in list A and T20 is nothing special and when it comes to the world cup the pitches he will be bowling on will be nothing like the result orientated ones he gets in the CC.

Also noting the continued forum radio silence on Chris Gayle. Anyone else willing to admit he does actually deserve a place in the world cup on sheer ability ( if you ignore that he's a horrendous human being). Averaging 106 at 134.17 over a series against the world cup favourites is pretty impressive regardless of how many came off Moeen. Imagine what his stats would be been if he'sd bothered running.

As for England's favourites tag ...they earnt it. Let's not forget that, they've beaten two of the sides Nathaniel listed as his favourites on the same grounds that will be used at the world cup faurly convincingly and won away in Sri Lanka. This tour has just exposed the chinks we already knew about, they arent a perfect side...who is? India are pushing right up there as a contender, but struggle to make the sort of astronomical scores we saw in St George's and don't have a batsman like Gayle who can hit 39 sixes in 4 innings.
England's confidence should be dented and there's a bit tinkering and squad selection to be done in the remaining warm ups but they do remain a very successful limited overs side. There's always an element of lottery in cricket, especially with the approach they take, but it's hard to be really critical when you think back to why they developed this mindset and how well its worked for them. All the talk ahead of that last game was of a high scoring 6 hitting shoot out, and Gayle absolutely showed that England needed as many on the board as possible to be in the match so it's hard to be critical of them gunning for it. They just screwwd up badly, the worrying bit is seeing the same tenancy as in tests for top order failure translate into full team panic and loss of confidence.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Watched the first hour of England's innings and feared the worst...not too surprised - though a little disappointed - to find they folded as easily as they did.
Fair to say it could function as a (useful) wake up call...but I'm afraid all the signs are that this outfit are convinced their best hopes lie in always playing the same way and they have no intention of introducing a "Plan B" : an approach which might be seen as admirable or arrogant depending on the result when it really matters.
The collapses happen a little too frequently for my taste , though I cannot deny the overall results have been very good. The team is probably still entitled to carry the tag of favorites going into the World Cup : not that such assessments make any difference once the action starts.
I think England have a decent chance of winning this year ; but I certainly wouldn't be betting on them at cramped odds.  NZ appeal to me as other contenders ; India will probably thrive on the type of pitches likely to be used - and I'd never write off Australia despite their recent poor run. To say nothing of the always unpredictable Pakistan...

Am I less confident of an England success after these matches in West    
Indies ? I'd have to say yes. Two failures out of four : one a thrown away winning chance (complacency ?) and the other just a rotten effort from the start suggest their reputation is just a little misleading.
I hope it was just a glitch. We will see...

I have to admit my confidence hasn't taken that much of a hit - they're still the best ODI side in the world, and have been since the 2015 World Cup. Does this mean they'll win the World Cup? Of course not, as ever with any sport it is whoever performs best on the day, and who's to say Kohli wouldn't score a 150 in a World Cup semi final to knock them out? But that doesn't change the journey they've been on, and how they've actually made watching England in ODI cricket relevant again.

Whilst this WIndies series was clearly poor, lets not forget what they've done even in the past year - beat Aus and NZ in away series (both convincingly), then beat Aus and India at home and Sri Lanka away.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Since when has bowling spin well against Australia been the barometer of being a decent bowler? Moeen got a hatful against them but they are embarrassing against any type of spin bowling.

Moeen is garbage as his record suggests. 47 with the ball fourth worst all time. He's got no backbone to fight with the bat. Sooner he's sacked the better we will be.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

"If you ignore the innings where he got wickets, Moeen hasn't got any wickets"

[Gooseberry]

Since when has bowling spin well against Australia been the barometer of being a decent bowler? Moeen got a hatful against them but they are embarrassing against any type of spin bowling.

Moeen is garbage as his record suggests. 47 with the ball fourth worst all time. He's got no backbone to fight with the bat. Sooner he's sacked the better we will be.

Since you described them as one of the world cup favourites?

But yes his record is rubbish. What I would suggest is a middle ground where the ability to be able to bat is also useful for sides, and if a team has such a glaring weakness they are going to struggle to win a world cup regardless of how good a bowler Stoinis is (oh wait he averages 46 at 6 an over in "one of the best bowling attacks in the world")

Apparently most teams have a rubbish/part time bowler in their side. The difference though between them and Moeen is that they tend to justify their place in the side with the bat, and in Englands case Stokes could/should be the 6th option. They could be daring and pick a proper second spinner if they had one they trusted, or a batsman like Denly who has a better record in list A in both disciplines (and a legitimately good one as a bowler).

You dont need to spout hyperbole and poorly thought out headline arguments to make the case that Moeen should not be as secure of an England spot as he seems to be.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Since when has bowling spin well against Australia been the barometer of being a decent bowler? Moeen got a hatful against them but they are embarrassing against any type of spin bowling.

Moeen is garbage as his record suggests. 47 with the ball fourth worst all time. He's got no backbone to fight with the bat. Sooner he's sacked the better we will be.

Since you described them as one of the world cup favourites?

But yes his record is rubbish. What I would suggest is a middle ground where the ability to be able to bat is also useful for sides, and if a team has such a glaring weakness they are going to struggle to win a world cup regardless of how good a bowler Stoinis is (oh wait he averages 46 at 6 an over in "one of the best bowling attacks in the world")

Apparently most teams have a rubbish/part time bowler in their side. The difference though between them and Moeen is that they tend to justify their place in the side with the bat, and in Englands case Stokes could/should be the 6th option. They could be daring and pick a proper second spinner if they had one they trusted, or a batsman like Denly who has a better record in list A in both disciplines  (and a legitimately good one as a bowler).

You dont need to spout hyperbole and poorly thought out headline arguments to make the case that Moeen should not be as secure of an England spot as he seems to be.

When exactly did Stoinis get mentioned as world class by myself?

I said India(Bumrah, Shami, Chahal and Kuldeep), Pakistan(Hassan Ali, Shaheen Afridi, Amir and Shadab) and Australia(Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins and Zampa is pretty under rated)

Naturally every decent World Cup winning side has had bits and pieces bowlers over the years as I’ve never seen a side with 5 world class bowlers.

The question is who’s gonna be the 3/4 guaranteed lock in bowlers? Because as we’ve seen Moeen’s pies are deemed vital for crowd catching

[alfie]

Not sure I am comfortable being cast as a Moeen apologist I did urge them to leave him out of the last ODi.
But Goose makes some good points and I do agree he probably shouldn't be as sure of a WC place as he seems to be (Moeen not Goose) Bayliss & co do seem inclined to stick pretty closely to their regular team though ...and it really hasn't worked out too badly for them the last couple of years...so I suspect they will be reluctant to change spinners at this late stage. Is there a better spin option anyway ?
There are a few matches to go yet before the Big Games so maybe they'll experiment ; but I'm not betting on it.

[Duty281]

Moeen isn't in the team to be a strike bowler, he's there to rattle through a few quick, cheap overs and, generally speaking, this is what he does. Yes, there are times like any bowler when he gets tapped, but most of the time he goes through sedate spells with an economy rate under 6.

And that's absolutely fine.

[Gooseberry]

Moeen isn't in the team to be a strike bowler, he's there to rattle through a few quick, cheap overs and, generally speaking, this is what he does. Yes, there are times like any bowler when he gets tapped, but most of the time he goes through sedate spells with an economy rate under 6.

And that's absolutely fine.

Previous ODIS economy rates (most recent first)

15.5
7.28
8.5
7.12
5.5
6

"About 5" an over is maybe a touch generous for his recent form. Again this is not a one or two game thing.
But yes his economy rate had been very good for a good period prior to that, but hes been getting walloped recently.

If you arent cheap (anymore), arent taking wickets (ever aside form one fairly recent series), aren't scoring runs with the bat (for over a year) and there are other players who could offer more in the same role then you should be seen as a passenger and under pressure.


In danger of looking like someone who actually cares about Nathaniels opinions Ill point out that he averages 37 as a pure specialist bowler who more often gets picked in spinner frriendly conditions, who cant bat to save his or life or Moeens career, and plays less often than Stoinis does. Im not denying that Australia have a strong bowling attack all the same, but to try and pretend that they can field 5 proper bowlers and a 6th option better than Moeen is questionable at best. And even more questionable was the assertion that that bowling attack makes them bigger favourites than England who soundly beat them (home and away series) because by your own admission they cant handle the useless Moeen. Oh an England beat both NZ and Aus in the Champions Trophy too of course. They also beat New Zealand away (and in their previous home series) and India at home.
The last time they lost a series anywhere to one of the "tournament favourites" was India over 2 years ago.

Yes these sides have some strong bowlers, but do any have a 5/6th option noticeably better than Moeen/Stokes? Its questionable at best.

Are these sides really world cup favourites when they have a combined record of won 7 and lost 19 over the past 4 years against England, with only 1 of those wins having come in England? Englands home record has been pretty amazing, since the start of 2016 theyve won 27 and lost 5 ODIS in England. India yes Im happy to say are a very strong all round side and are absolutely a strong contender for the world cup, but to put Aus and NZ above England is just odd and completely contrary to any rational analysis of results between the competing sides. Of course England can lose, as they have (Scotland !), but Aus NZ and India all lose more often...in particular when they are playing England in England.

Moeens place should really be under question because he isnt doing enough to justify being in the side batting 7 as an option bowler. There are better specialist spinners and better batting spinners available. And Dawson.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Who are these options Goose?

[LondonTiger]

Samit

[James100]

Who are these options Goose?

Briggs had a very good Lions tour from memory (though I'd stick with Moeen, his batting balances the side and he has a good wicket taking record in the first powerplay which is useful if opposition openers get off to a good start).

[VTR]

I'm puzzled by these options, certainly anyone who has played ODIs at any point. Leach did well in Tests but untried in ODIs, not even sure if he's a good List A bowler. Denly? Completely unproven. Tredwell? Bopara bowling cutters?

[king_carlos]

Liam Dawson would be the nearest fit as a bits and pieces one day spinner who keeps things tight.

Matthew Parkinson had a good summer but is now injured and a similar option to Rashid.

Danny Briggs and Stephen Parry are slow left-arm orthodox spinners with a good record for keeping things tight in one day cricket.

I don't see Moeen being discarded for the world cup though.

Interestingly it's a role that Zafar Ansari may once have been pushing to fill but he of course chose a different career path.

[Gooseberry]

Dawson wouldve been were he fit, although Im not a fan tbh. He hasnt played enough ODIs to be fairly judged really but he does have better list A stats with bat and ball than Moeen does. The issue with him and Rashid as pairing is that they both move the ball the same way.
Denly yes also unproven and largely untried as an international player in any format. But again he got his England chance because he was the best all round player in domestic limited over competitions last year, and again has far better stats with Moeen with both bat and ball in list A. Now for consistency Im no great believer in county stats as a judge of international ability, but there has to be something in it when he averages 20 better than Moeen with the ball and at a better economy rate. His stats are far better than "bits and pieces" domestically, especially in recent times.
Leach I doubt is close to anything tbh, hes barely ever played limited overs cricket despite having an OK record. Being a non batter has doubtless held him back. Bess (remember him?) and Briggs didnt do much on the Lions tour, Carter did very well for the most part and had an excellent one day cup record last season, but I cant imagine hes anywhere near ready to be considered for the senior side. Matt Parkinson is another youngster who played for the Lions over the summer and did very well in the cup, but again I doubt hes on the radar and as another leggie hes not likely to partner Rashid. Just picking Hales and using Root as the 6th option is pretty unlikely too.

So the options probably are Denly and Dawson. But they do exist.

I do agree that England are showing no signs of ditching Moeen, but at risk of repeating myself (sod it I will) he really hasnt done much to justify his place career wise or since the Aus series. And Denly offers a like for like swap, just with much better pedigree as a bowler to trade for less experience. If Denly is unproven then Moeen is proven...to not be a very good ODI bowler. Take away his batting which has been rank for an extended period and hes very ordinary indeed and a passenger. But really his overall record is poor and getting worse...2018/19 16 with the bat and 40 with the ball in 29 games is the worst of anyone in Englands core squad by a margin. Rashids taken his wickets in that period at 26 and only been marginally more expensive.

But yes this is Moeen and whenever people turn against him he goes and does something to convince us all he might have something anyway. He really stepped up when Stokes was missing last summer.

[Gooseberry]

Samit

Ive already made that joke twice ...the run emoji is hugely inappropriate next to his name

[Gooseberry]

....although discount all my opinions cos Chris Jordan got Gayle out

England have put out a real "squad" side for the T20 but are doing a decent job with the ball so far, Rashid with 3 overs for just 6 runs and a wicket!

[Duty281]

161 for England to get. Tough task. Not the easiest pitch to score off.

[Duty281]

Not the easiest pitch to score off.

This changes when you bowl the amount of tripe the Windies have started off with.

[Gooseberry]

Not the easiest pitch to score off.

This changes when you bowl the amount of tripe the Windies have started off with.

Crumbs yes a somewhat rapid start, but Hales and just now Root out is a bit of a thing. England dont have much down the order...no Roy, Stokes, Buttler or Woakes. Its a great opportunity for Denly to push his case.

[Duty281]

England win by four wickets. Bairstow's brisk 68 and a tidy 30 from Denly set things up nicely.

[Gooseberry]

Hope Malan gets a game, but it does seem that Smith really doesnt like him

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Really interesting article on the Guardian about Gayle and Dhoni, which speaks of much that we discussed in Gayle's play against England in the ODIs.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2019/mar/05/chris-gayle-ms-dhoni-rage-dying-light-cricket

This part in particular is amazing.

At this point in his career, the only thing Gayle seems to be able to do really well on a cricket field is hit sixes, something which, fortunately for him, he does better than anyone else alive right now. Of those 424 runs he made against England, 234 of them were scored in sixes. There were 39 altogether, as many as Ireland hit in the whole of last year, more than most batsmen score in their entire career. Really. Ireland hit 39 in 15 games in 2018, and of the 2,496 men who have played one-day international cricket, only 145 of them hit as many sixes in their lives as Gayle did in those four innings.

[VTR]

This lad Jordan looks a fine prospect. Surely worth a go in ODIs and Tests?

[LondonTiger]

Hope Malan gets a game, but it does seem that Smith really doesnt like him

Perhaps Smith doesn't, though it is Morgan and Bayliss who select the XI.

[Gooseberry]

Hope Malan gets a game, but it does seem that Smith really doesnt like him

Perhaps Smith doesn't, though it is Morgan and Bayliss who select the XI.

Fair point!

But he does average 50 at 9 an over in T20Is (and of course is a spin option ) He does fit into that odd category in this squad though of previously discarded 30+ player
If England saw any real multi format future for him he should've gone with the Lions, but instead they used that to effectively replace the performance programme and pack it with kids who are just breaking through at county level. I still fancy he could be in contention for the next T20 world cup on ability, but it does seem that the leadership dont value him much...possibly because hes been so openly critical of the way he was ditched after getting lumbered with the worst job in test cricket and daring to outscore Cook and Root in Aus.


Since I've become Denlys agent for the world cup squad ...he did a handy if unspectacular job with the bat, but was the player who turned a tricky situation (especially given Englands tail) into a comfortable one by batting in exactly the way that Moeen the entire ODI side seemed incapable of. Played according to the situation, so if Bayliss is actually bothering to watch these games hes previously described as pointless that might be 5% closer to my bonus. Bowling wise his career figures took a hammering, now "only" averages 9 in this format internationally He did get hit about a bit mind but 1/28 and 30 runs is a solid contribution, Moeen averages 14 with the bat and 34 with ball at 8.6 in T20Is .. scored 0 more times than hes made double figures. Its a hard argument to say that Moeens rested for these games, Denly is the better performer in this format internationally and domestically.

Rashid though really is a genuine force in limited overs cricket now, and deserves a bigger international profile than he has. After all the false starts in his career and attitude problems, plus the whole debacle with how he got recalled to the test side and Yorkshire fall out, its good to see that hes stuck with it and not just drifted off to mediocrity like so many other England cricketers have once dropped. Hes maybe let his batting slip in recent years, and never lived up to the potential in tests his early career first class record hinted at, but unlike Moeen (and Denly) he entirely justifies selection as a pure bowler in either limited overs format.

[VTR]

It's hard to know what England use the T20s for. These bilateral series are the most forgotten-tomorrow form of cricket ever devised. It genuinely looks like they give people a game for being a good bloke and not toppling too many pedaloes on tour

[Gooseberry]

It's hard to know what England use the T20s for. These bilateral series are the most forgotten-tomorrow form of cricket ever devised. It genuinely looks like they give people a game for being a good bloke and not toppling too many pedaloes on tour

Bayliss interview last year ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/43104618

I wouldn't play T20 internationals," Bayliss told Sky Sports.

"If you want to play a World Cup every four years, maybe six months before let international teams play T20. I would just let the franchises play."

Its notable that so many of team have been given these off but allowed to play in the IPL instead rather than being wrapped in cotton wool. At least hes being consistent for once.

TBF there is some value in allowing Curran and (yeah broken record) Denly a go as they are still in the frame as squad players for the world cup, so whilst additional ODIs wouldve given a better opportunity at least they are getting some chance to show what they can do in limited over internationals without making other people feel like they've been dropped. The use of Billings I still find inexplicable though.

It would be ironic if its the one series on this tour that England actually managed to win.

[VTR]

The thing is people pay to watch this cr**, probably moreso than Tests and viewing figures are presumably OK. So they are probably here to stay. If England win the series with a whitewash I couldn't be less excited

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

The thing is people pay to watch this cr**, probably moreso than Tests and viewing figures are presumably OK. So they are probably here to stay. If England win the series with a whitewash I couldn't be less excited

As Strauss said at the talk I saw him at last year re: county championship fixtures being played at the bookend of the summers, with the Blast getting mainly July/August - "500 members watching day two of a county game on a Tuesday doesn't pay the bills, 10,000 on a Friday night watching a T20 buying food/drink does".

Very very much here to stay. If it wasn't for England fans, there would barely have been a soul at the Test matches this winter

[Duty281]

I don't see the point of international T20s and I'd be perfectly happy for T20 to be a domestic/franchise only thing.

International T20s are often tacked on at the end of long tours when everyone wants to go home, and no one seems to care about them until a few weeks before the 'World T20' event - an event which, in itself, is often forgotten about pretty quickly.

As a side note, it'll be interesting to see what impact the 'The Hundred' competition will have on T20s and 50-over cricket in England + Wales.

[wisden]

Malan has 4 50's in 5 t20I innings, crazy that he dosent get in that side!

[guildfordbat]

I don't see the point of international T20s and I'd be perfectly happy for T20 to be a domestic/franchise only thing.

International T20s are often tacked on at the end of long tours when everyone wants to go home, and no one seems to care about them until a few weeks before the 'World T20' event - an event which, in itself, is often forgotten about pretty quickly.

As a side note, it'll be interesting to see what impact the 'The Hundred' competition will have on T20s and 50-over cricket in England + Wales.

Hi Duty - it's hard to see how The Hundred won't have a detrimental effect on both.

The Hundred is planned to be played in the same period of the season as the county 50 over tournament. With leading county players drafted into the new teams set up for The Hundred, that'll mean the county sides will have to call up fringe players from the seconds and academies. Factor in as well that most of the major grounds will be be taken over solely for The Hundred throughout the whole period of that new tournament and so the 50 over games will have to be played at smaller outgrounds. All this points to a decline in quality and attendance at 50 over county games which is likely to feed through and ultimately be harmful to the England ODI side. That's totally at odds with the priority the ECB have given in recent years to improving our ODI side and winning this year's World Cup.

Very few in the game consider The Hundred and the county t20 competition to both be sustainable. If The Hundred wins out, it's likely to only be because of cheap prices as a result of being heavily subsidised by the ECB.

[king_carlos]

As Strauss said at the talk I saw him at last year re: county championship fixtures being played at the bookend of the summers, with the Blast getting mainly July/August - "500 members watching day two of a county game on a Tuesday doesn't pay the bills, 10,000 on a Friday night watching a T20 buying food/drink does".

Good quote there Olly. That sums up the bigger picture that many miss.

Whenever the BBC opens HYS on topics such as the 100 or T20 games there is an overwhelming number of posts along the lines of, "not real cricket" or "this will ruin tests".

Tests are undoubtedly the pinnacle to me. It's what I love watching, it's what I choose to view live when I can and it's what I spend the most time following.

County cricket isn't in a great place financially though to say the least and if it doesn't find new revenue streams then test cricket won't be the only format in danger of disappearing. The financial situation of county cricket is something that many fans seem unwilling to take a realistic view of.

[Gooseberry]

This really should be spilt off to one of the existing topics on the subject ... (paging mods/admins!)

But in regard to the lack of proper openers in the county game (and therefor the test team) post Cook the financial importance not just to the counties but also to the players themselves (being more likely to get a central contract if they are all formats and being able to command higher wages in the global T20 circuit) of short form cricket is clearly linked.
Counties cannot afford to pay specialist 4 day players much, and retain promising young defensive batsmen in the same way they might a batsman keeper or a seam all rounder. When you look at the Lions teams (and indeed current international squads) England have developed incredible depth in there all rounders and batsmen keepers exactly because these are the role that young player are most likely to earn professional contracts for couple with them being the ones they are most likely to aspire to. Theres also been a noticeable rise in the number of batting legspinners around in England too since T20 became a thing, a bowling style that previously had been almost extinct in England and of limited value in tests.
England have tried to put together ODI sides like the one they have now in the past and its been a disaster because they simply didnt have the quality and depth in the types of players required. The county game was more focused on developing long form talent and specialists, although batsmen keepers has been a thing and a strength for England for a lot longer the numbers have rocketed with a high percentage of the top young batsmen in the county game now being part time or former keepers ( eg Burns and Pope at Surrey).
the positives of this of course are born out in an ODI side that can get crushed by a medicore west indies team and dominated by a batman who cant walk let alone run be ranked number one in the world, and an increasing number of players who can earn a good living touring the world T20 circuit.
The downside is theres little incentive for counties to invest in developing and employ long form specialists now, and little incentive for youngsters to go down that route even if it suits their natural skill set and mentality.

The counties are for the most part not sustainable in their current form (Surrey and their seemingly infinite pit of cash aside), the latest tinkering doesnt really address the core issue although does lay a foundation for longer term cutting the number of fully professional teams and concentrating the TV cash on smaller number of franchises with bigger playing squads.

T100 is an absolute mess currently. It has the potential to completely disrupt the season and whilst the counties has endorsed it noone even knows what teams will be playing in it or where or how much money it will have. It will generated cash all the same, and that kind of sad. I suspect Chris Gayle might even hang around for it post world cup if theres enough female journalists on offer, an hour of hitting sixes, and an hour of signing autographs on the boundary while someone hits them over him, then off to the bar is right up his street.

The ECB needs to invest some of this money back into setting up a programme to support the training and wages of long form specialist batsmen (ie openers) if England are going to ever have a proper test batting line up again. They need to do this over a decade ago.

Hameed was really the only one whos come through in the past 15 years who looked like a genuine test opener in the classical sense, but where was the support when he got injured and his form went? Instead his county felt they needed him to branch out if they were able to justify paying him the wages a test player demands and develop a more attacking style. Now hes sitting out a contract in the seconds and in danger of dropping out of pro cricket altogether at just 22. Where was the ECB for him this winter? Was he at a coaching camp or supported to go play first class cricket abroad? Nope hes just in the wilderness, and his county left with a difficult choice when his current contract expires this year. In the first 3 years of that deal Lancashire have really seen very little back for their investment even in the one format where hes played, its no wonder counties think twice about who they offer deals to.

Im naturally against the ditching of the counties and commercialisation of the game, and still hold a connection to Leicestershire, but really the 100 might be another stepping stone to what should've happen 20 plus years ago and shift to a franchised centrally controlled professional game with most EQ players contracted and managed by the ECB. The fiasco with Yorkshires ground investments a few years ago, and the Rashid situation, is yet another example of why the current system is just unhelpful to everyone.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

You can start your own topics, Goose, don’t worry! I only close things Nathaniel starts 

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