Edinburgh and Glasgow – Continuing patter version 22 (it used to be a squad size)

First topic message reminder :

With the woes and injuries in the international camp just depressing us, lets look back to the club game.

Possible areas of discussion:
Edinburgh continue to hold the 1872 trophy
Edinburgh are getting a new ground
Edinburgh have a home Euro Champs cup game to look forward to
Edinburgh have a league fixture against the perpetual point givers, Glasgow, to look forward to
BigGee’s proposed Scotland XV for England has 8 Edinburgh players, 4 exiles and 3 Glasgow players so even the International team is starting to look representative of where rugby in Scotland truly exists.
It’s not all bad for Glasgow though as they sit above Munster in the Pro 14 and have Stafford McDowell on their books
Edinburgh have Hamish Watson though

So we could see the Lord Stafford and Hutchinson at 12-13?

Can Hutch play 15?

I agree with you totally about Glasgow being the better option....but surely that would apply to any half decent back?

Here is the Hutchy interview from the Scotsman. Most of the Scotsman rugby articles recently have also appeared in TOL, often first. This one interestingly has not, so maybe they are trying to protect their copy a bit more. I would generally baulk at paying for the Scotsman though, the standard of writing is generally pretty poor these days.


Hutchinson’s on a meteoric trajectory as a stunning six months in England’s top flight sees him looking to secure a place on Gregor Townsend’s plane to Japan, writes Duncan Smith

Fine margins is an oft-used cliché in elite sport and, aged just 23, it’s one Northampton centre Rory Hutchinson doesn’t need to be told about.




As one of the new boys in the Scotland squad aiming for a place at this year’s World Cup, and chatting as the Algarve sun beats down at their recent Portugal training camp, it’s easy to get the sense that these young men are living the life of Riley. Until Hutchinson starkly points out that just six months ago “I was fighting for my job”.




Being a professional sportsman can open a limitless door to perks and opportunity but it can be a double-edged sword, with hard work and no little luck always required to make the most of natural talent.


















Hutchinson ended this season mixing it with the likes of Danny Cipriani at the Rugby Players Association awards ceremony after being nominated as England’s young player of the year, gaining similar recognition from the Gallaghers Premiership.

It capped a whirlwind second half of the season for the young Cambridge-born Scot after a posterior cruciate ligament injury became the latest setback to stall a promising fledgling career, following back problems that had limited him to a handful of first-team appearances for Northampton in the previous two campaigns.

“I didn’t have the best start to the season getting injured, coming back before Christmas. I was fighting for a job really,” said Hutchinson, who is now part of Townsend’s 44-man extended Scotland World Cup training squad, and was named English Premiership player of the month in February.

“I wasn’t thinking about the kind of things that ended up happening at the start of the year because I didn’t think it was possible. It’s been an amazing six or seven months and it was great to be nominated for those awards but the main thing is it’s unbelievable to be here in a World Cup training squad.







“Injuries… well that’s just the life of a rugby player. You can’t complain too much.”

Still capable of turning his hand to stand-off, where he began his youth career, Hutchinson relishes that crucial midfield axis area on a rugby pitch at 10, 12, 13 where the knife edge of success and failure is ever present. Something national coach Gregor Townsend has ingrained in his rugby soul too.

Things move fast in sport and, while Hutchinson’s first goal is to pick up a first senior cap when the warm-up games kick off in the middle of next month, it has to be said that the race for centre spots in Townsend’s final 31 looks an open field.

The triumvirate of Alex Dunbar, Mark Bennett and Matt Scott are all out of the picture. Sam Johnson has emerged from nowhere to post a superb Six Nations, while Saracens’ Duncan Taylor is back but hasn’t played in over a year. Huw Jones has dropped way off the heights of his 2018 Calcutta Cup heroics and his season with Glasgow petered out.







Along with Nick Grigg and the similarly versatile Pete Horne, Hutchinson must be sensing an opportunity.










Former England internationalist turned media pundit Ugo Monye is a prominent backer of the Northampton man.

“I would take him to the World Cup for Scotland. I think he’s class,” said the former British and Irish Lions wing in April.

“Their [Scotland’s] biggest weakness has always been defence. Rory Hutchinson’s got a good defence, but he can do everything that the other 13s who are available to Gregor Townsend can do in attack.”

Those solid defensive qualities are part of what caught so many eyes in the last few months of the season, although Hutchinson admits he is having to adapt to a more pressing rush defence with Scotland than the deeper-lying system at Franklin’s Gardens.







“It’s different but I’m trying to learn as fast as I can because we want to be as one as a system and a team,” he said. “It’s nice to get different ideas from different coaches, it’s great for your rugby development.”

Hutchinson is eager to express how much he owes to Scotland in terms of that development.

“I found the Scottish Exiles online and with my family connections –my grandparents are Scottish, from Bellshill, on my mother’s side,” he explained – “that got me into the Scotland Under-18 set-up and took me through to Under-20s.

“I don’t know where I’d be if it wasn’t that chance I got through the Exiles. They’ve been very supportive. It’s taken a while at Northampton coming through the academy to get a chance playing for the first team so that chance to play in Under-20 World Cups and Six Nations has been so influential on how my career has progressed. I’m so grateful and really want to give something back to Scotland.”

He continued: “Gregor phoned me earlier in the year and said he was keeping an eye on me, was impressed and told me to keep it up and gave me a few pointers on where I might need to improve. I took that constructive criticism on board.”

Hutchinson wasn’t considered for this year’s Six Nations but admits watching that epic Calcutta Cup clash at Twickenham added even more extra motivation for him to graduate to full senior honours.

“There were no mixed emotions from me. I’m Scottish,” said the boy from Cambridge. “What a game, though, you couldn’t make it up. From where it was at half-time it was just wow.

“That’s the kind of game that makes you want to play rugby at the highest level. It was incredible.”

No stranger to a dark blue jersey, Hutchinson is second only to Jamie Farndale in appearances for Scotland Under-20s, making the squad for the junior World Cups in New Zealand 2014, Italy 2015 and England in 2016, although that last one in Manchester ended in another blow for the then primarily stand-off when an ankle injury wrecked his tournament.

“I was lucky, not many get to play in three Under-20 World Cups,” he said.

“And a lot of the guys from my 20s days are here in the squad now. Blair Kinghorn, Adam Hastings, Zander Fagerson, Darcy Graham, Scott Cummings, George Horne, the list goes on. It’s great we’ve all been on this journey together.

“It’s quite nice to have the skills of a fly half. Adam goes back and forth as well and he ended up taking over at stand-off with the 20s and that’s gone well for him and the move to centre has gone well for me. You’re involved in the thick of things, attacking and making the big tackles. I love playing there.”

A stellar six months has taken Hutchinson to the brink of that plane to Japan but, referring back, it also did keep him in a job. He earned a one-year extension to his contract at Northampton, but is open to a move to Scotland after that.

“Yes definitely. Edinburgh are on the up and Glasgow are right up at the top of the game so whatever is best for my future in the game I’d be open to,” he said. “But right now I’m focused on this World Cup period, really trying to make that final squad and then it will be looking to have as good a season with Northampton as possible. We want to be up there competing for trophies. You have Duncan Taylor and Sean Maitland in the squad here and they are loving life at the moment with all these trophies Saracens are winning and that’s where we want to be at with Northampton.”

Where he wants to be at come September, though, is Japan.

“I think it would just be the cherry on top to what’s been an up and down few years. It’s everyone’s dream,” said Hutchinson. “There’s still a lot of work to do to get there because there are some world-class centres here. I think that’s what Gregor wants, everyone competing for it.”

Looks like Josh Strauss is heading back to SA for next seasons Super Rugby, he has apparently signed for the Bulls. Sale are happy to release him a year early as they are overflowing with backrow players.

That will be his time in europe done now and the end of his Scotland career if he, as you would expect, not make the final cut for the WC squad.

Apparently there were some conversations with Glasgow about a return, but Mark Palmer suggesting that they came from his camp and not Glasgow. Either way, it never seemed likely to happen.

I think Strauss is a prime example of how big a step up International rugby is compared to club rugby, and it doesn't always work out (something we need to bear in mind before getting too carried away by the exciting youngsters in the current world cup squad!).

He's not done much wrong at international level but he's also not been able to impose himself on games like he did for Glasgow.

I suspect it's another case of if he was born 10 years earlier he probably would have had 50 caps for Scotland - the game has moved on so much in that period, as as our expectations!

It was the pace of international rugby that Strauss couldn’t get up to.

He was a competent 8 and a good defender but he needed to get a head of steam up to bash through opponents and he just didn’t get that extra few strides on the international pitch to get him up to ramming speed.

I think his kidney busting match against France in 2017 was one of his best Scotland performances. He kept Scotland in that game and really put his body on the line against that beefy French side.

Aye that was a huge performance - probably one of the biggest Scottish performances in the 6N area from a number 8.

Its been very quiet on the Glasgow social media front and particularly about the new players we were promised.

I don't think they are even back from their summer hols yet.

I guess the season starts late this year but you would imagine they are going to be starting their pre season soon, I would have thought it might have been this week, but seemingly not.

DR seemingly making sure that they are all going to be well rested!

https://www.glasgowwarriors.org/news/%E2%80%8Bfresh-faces-at-scotstoun-for-pre-season

and just as I posted that, the warriors answered the question for me, pre-season gets underway this week.

The depleted Warriors ranks get a boast from several sevens players and some young club players. Some of them may get a chance to make a more permanent mark if they play well.

Robbie Fergusson has always looked like he could play at this level and McFarland has the kind of pace that will scare any defence. If he could put on a bit of beef and improve his defence then he could be an option going forward as well.

Glasgow really must be desperate for an off season 'good news' story if that's what they're reporting - it happens every year that the 7s and under 20s players join pre-season! That's how JJ and Fife got back in with Edinburgh.

Don't know about a good news story, at the moment we are happy with an any news story.

Still hoping we might pick up a few more players once everyone gets back from holiday and they can start to make some announcements.

Even the Fijian hooker looks like he has got himself into the Fiji squad now, which is a good thing for him and probably Glasgow in the longer term, but won't do us any favours during and immediately after the WC period.

It looks like we might start the season with Grant Stewart and the two premiership players Graham and Mathews as our only choices. Admittedly Graham has some pro game time with Leeds but that certainly leaves us a bit light. Hopefully the two of them can step up.

Out of those players brought in from the 7's, the one I have heard mentioned most often is Kyle Rowe - apparently a very sharp winger.

I would really like to think that Glasgow have a couple of decent signings to announce, but it's looking less likely.

If there is no replacement for Hogg, I can see Lord Stafford making a move there this season, I wouldn't actually be too bothered if that was the case.

Personally I’d not want lord Stafford moved to 15 as we’re ok therefore the foreseeable but we’re still lacking a proper 12 with long term prospects

Glenn bryce is on the list of 7s players joining... just saying

NeilyBroon wrote:Glenn bryce is on the list of 7s players joining... just saying

It really does show how utter knickers Glasgow have gotten since Toonie left. A win rate against Edinburgh that is as bad as Andy Murray's doubles record at wimbledon, and now they are having to load thier ranks with Edinburgh's rejects.

Poor poor glasgow.

Just goes to show that when the SRU arent chucking money at thier favourite little team in the west, things arent quite so rosey eh!

I've cut and stuck this one from the Glasgow Warriors Forum, I think this may interest you tigertattie;

Worst case scenario XV
15 R Jackson

14 L Jones
13 R Fergusson
12 S McDowall
11 R Hughes

10 B Thomson
9 N Frisby

1 O Kebble
2 J Matthews
3 D Rae
4 T Swinson
5 R Harley
6 C Gibbins
8 A Ashe
7 C Fusaro

16 R Graham
17 A Allan
18 A Nicol
19 A Davidson
20 B Flockhart
21 J Dobie
22 P Kelly
23 R Nairn

with the likelihood of seeing a few others added....probably Grant Stewart, Scott Cummings, Kyle Steyn, Nick Grigg and possibly, just possibly, one of Matt F or Ryan W.

Now, apart from hooker, I don't think that's too shabby a 23 to be starting the season with. I think Matt Smith would be in my starting XV. Also Robbie Nairn, who is a magnificent specimen of muscular masculinity. He could well be our next full back. There is also Andrew Davidson in the second row. I think we'll be pretty competitive in the first six matches. AND we get the trip to Cheetahs out of the way first match meaning it won't fecc up our Euro cup this season.

https://www.glasgowwarriors.org/news/warriors-sign-versatile-fijian-forward

and finally a Glasgow signing and this one looks interesting, Jale Vakaloloma, a big raw boned Fijian who predominantly plays blind side. A potential rough diamond who could easily be polished into a very decent player.

Looks like our lack of ball carriers is finally being addressed.

He has been in and around the Fiji squad, but mainly for the Pacific Champs and so we should hopefully get him for the WC window when we will be short.

His highlights reel made me dribble, just a bit.

At 6'5" he seems to have the build and hands of Big Leone but also the acceleration and step of MadmadMata.

He also attacks 10's like Bob Harley on speed. ( not that his Bobness would ever dabble in chemicals).

Is there a Jurassic Park type laboratory under the north stand at Scotstoun?

By the way tigertattie....

It really does show how utter knickers Glasgow have gotten since Toonie left. A win rate against Edinburgh that is as bad as Andy Murray's doubles record at wimbledon, and now they are having to load thier ranks with Edinburgh's rejects.

Poor poor glasgow.

Just goes to show that when the SRU arent chucking money at thier favourite little team in the west, things arent quite so rosey eh!

bon appetite, amigo.

p.s. It'll be interesting to see what the Warriors get out of Jale.

He looks like a great player with all the attributes to get better - excited to see how he improves.

Where else do we need to strengthen? Another loosehead would be good I think.

People seem to be forgetting the Mike Penn rule - always be wary of highlights reels!

Worth saying a lot of those highlights are from lower level rugby.

He's certainly a bit athletic lad though!

p.s. It'll be interesting to see what the Warriors get out of Jale.

I'm not one to complain.....but I can't believe you Philistines missed that.

This week's grammar test: Can you add a comma and a question mark to the sentence after the p.s. in such a way as to make it seem as if it was said by FES?

Finally, I can't wait till Scotstoun sees it's first Jale break.


After all that I'm fairly certain the big fella's name will be pronounced Yalleh or Shay or Hugo.

Aye he is aptly named for a weegie.

I think RDW missed it as its too similar a name to Jade and RDW has a memory suppression system that kicks in when that name is uttered!

Actually, I have a sneaky suspicion Jale will be pronounced Halleh and it'll be fun and games when we have Harley and Halleh in the engine room.

But not as much fun as when we have Harley-Davidson in the engine room.

So because I'm not getting any younger I've decided to make my triumphant return to rugby and have started pre-season training with a team in London.

It's currently 33deg in London for training tonight and Thursday is going to be worse at 36deg.

As of Thursday evening you may be looking for a new Founder! (that's sunburnt, not mad)

Good luck, its bad enough working in it!

Flounder, tell me you're playing in the eastern counties leagues and I'll come out of retirement just for the fun of not being the slowest, most jelly handed Nancy boy on the pitch.

p.s. After one away match when I had dismally failed to finish the Man Of The Match pint in a oner the opposition grabbed their winger and thrust a pint into his hand and as he too failed dismally they all chanted "Slower than Jimbo, slower than Jimbo."

jimbopip wrote:Flounder, tell me you're playing in the eastern counties leagues and I'll come out of retirement just for the fun of not being the slowest, most jelly handed Nancy boy on the pitch.

As much as I would like to see this happen we play in the London leagues!

Don't know which one yet as the club puts out 5 teams every week and I have no idea which one I will fit into (safe to assume the 5s for now and see where it goes!)

RDW wrote:

jimbopip wrote:Flounder, tell me you're playing in the eastern counties leagues and I'll come out of retirement just for the fun of not being the slowest, most jelly handed Nancy boy on the pitch.

As much as I would like to see this happen we play in the London leagues!

Don't know which one yet as the club puts out 5 teams every week and I have no idea which one I will fit into (safe to assume the 5s for now and see where it goes!)

Ladies Thirds?

Ahhh pre season training.

I remember it well

I used to watch the guys doing it while I sat in the club house where I'd weighed up the prospect of playing for the 1st XV vs running about out there in the sunshine!

Rugby is a winter sport and playing nor training should be done in the months of June, July or August.

When the rain comes back and you can see your breath in the airm then thats when training is acceptable!

I'm very much looking forward to training on the potential hottest day ever recorded tomorrow...

Say you don't know me
Or recognize my face
Say you don't care who goes
To that kind of place
Knee deep in the hoopla
Sinking in your fight
Too many runaways
Eating up the night

Yes, the heat has made me dellierious!

Has Marconi been playing with your mumbas?

Yup. He did it while I was listening to the radio.

Folk said I should report him but apparently it’s poor form to do that if you enjoyed it!

Simon Hickey and Duncan Hodge in the Scotsman saying Edinbrugh are going to play more attacking rugby this season, hiting it's because we'll be losing so many forwards to the WC so the traditional strength isn't there.

Will believe it when we see it!

Here is the article, as RDW says, we are looking forward to seeing it!

As Edinburgh’s rugby players prepare for a new season, still the better part of two months away, their supporters can expect to see the side starting to move away from their forward orientated approach to a more expansive style.

In part, that is simply the way things have to be, as Edinburgh will see most of their front-line forwards starting at the Rugby World Cup, not in club colours, so the backs are going to have to pick up the pieces. By the time they are back to full strength, the style should be set.




Stand-off Simon Hickey said: “At times [last season], we played some good, exciting footy but we’ve spoken about playing a bit more of an attacking brand of rugby this year.




“That should enable the guys who are already here, as well as some of the new guys – Nic [Groom, scrum half] and Eroni [Sau, wing] – to showcase some of their attacking abilities and play a good brand of rugby, which is fun to play and watch,” added the New Zealander as he prepared for tonight’s charity cricket match against Eastern Knights at The Grange.























Sau, in particular is tipped to add to the X-factor, though there is still uncertainty over his World Cup prospects after the player signed from Perpignan was picked in Fiji’s wider training squad and then featured in two matches against the Maori earlier this month.

Edinburgh backs coach Duncan Hodge added “He is different to the wingers we have. He is very strong, very physical and has played a lot on the Sevens circuit.

“The advantage of him is that he has already had a year playing fifteens [with Perpignan] and is getting more experience playing fifteens with Fiji. Potentially he has some good blocks of fifteens before he comes back to us.”

It will be Hodge’s job to generate that exciting brand of play and he says he is encouraged by what he has seen so far in training.







“A lot of hard work has been done,” he said. “The rugby is just starting to ramp up now but it is obviously disjointed, the season is starting a bit later and we are going to have some boys away but you don’t know who. We are starting to integrate a lot of the young Academy guys in, it is exciting.

“Some of the guys coming in have been straight from school, the likes of Matt Currie, Harry Paterson [both from last season’s Scotland under 18 squad] and these guys.

“They only finished school 10 weeks ago so it is good to see them this week and last.

“The sevens guys are in at the moment, ticking over before they go into their program in the future.







“Considering we have guys away, we actually have quite a lot of guys there.”










Edinburgh already have one Fijian in camp, Mesulame Kunavula, a second or back row, but the world cup call on Sau, as with the homegrown Scotland players, will not me made for more than a month.

That poses a dilemma for Hodge and the other coaches. Individually, they want the best for each and every one of the players but 10 of the 
Edinburgh pack are in the Scotland training squad and could all be picked for the World Cup.

Add that Viliame Mata is just about certain a to travel for Fiji and the uncertainty over Sau, and that shows the scale of the problem for the opening weeks of the season.

“As a coach, you want what is best for the individual and it is important they play for Scotland but there are certain positions that have been wiped out in the squad at the moment,” added Hodge.







“Most teams are the same, you look at the Italians and Leinster and these teams and they are all the same, they will have a lot of guys away as well.

“That whole eight to 10 weeks [at the start of the season] is important. You have a block without them and you need to get off to a good start.

“Then you have a block when they come back but they will all have had different levels of game time and exposure at the World Cup. You have to try to integrate them when there are new calls and potential new systems. It is a tricky period.”

Warriors s bring in an American hooker, Jack Iscaro on a training contract until December. He will return stateside for the start of the US season.

He comes from the SRU partner club in the USA, Old Glory of Washington. So that pathway seems to be active.

It probably makes sense as we will be light on hookers, especially as our new Fijian guy is tottering on the brink of the Fiji squad and may not be around till post WC either. We may need this guy to have a few runs off the bench for us.

Hope Glasgow don't have to rely on him given Old Glory were pumped by our under 20s, who in turn were then relegated! They're not a high standard at all.

Enough of the diversion tactics, Flounder. Did you survive training last night or are you posting from The Good Place?

I went to the pub instead! Far too hot for this exercise malarky.

We'll make a rugby player out of you yet

RDW wrote:I went to the pub instead! Far too hot for this exercise malarky.

Surely no one went out training in that! The club would have needed to cancel the thing on grounds of health and safety!

tigertattie wrote:

RDW wrote:I went to the pub instead! Far too hot for this exercise malarky.

Surely no one went out training in that! The club would have needed to cancel the thing on grounds of health and safety!

That's what I thought but they did!

To be fair it wasn't as bad as it was forecast to be by the time training started, and there had been heavy rain and thunder just before, but it was still feckin hot.

Someone posted a video of Kwagga Smith tearing the opposition a new one for the Lions last weekend. Will try to find it. Any more chat about him coming to Edinburgh? That's what I read in Rugby Heaven.

I've not seen any, and it was always far fetched IMO - the guy is on the fringes for SA and could feasibly go to the world cup if there's injuries.

RDW wrote:I've not seen any, and it was always far fetched IMO - the guy is on the fringes for SA and could feasibly go to the world cup if there's injuries.

He played against the All Blacks at the weekend and looked pretty good imo

They have got a lot of depth in the back row though, so not guaranteed to go yet. Not going to hear any announcement until the Boks make up their minds though.

so he's basically Hamish Watson with a forwards nose!!!

Pretty impressive highlights, especially given most of it was at Super Rugby level. I remember seeing him for the Barbarians against England last year and he was superb - MOTM from memory.

Still think there's no chance he's coming to Edinburgh!

He is a great player, no doubt, but do Edinburgh need him? Especially from a Scotland point of view!

We have the Mish, Ritchie, Bradders, Barcs and not forgetting ye olde Mata.

If Smith comes as an openside (mind he mostly plays 6 in SA which is openside for some reason) then Smith, Mish and Ritchie are all fighting for the 7 jersey. If he comes as a blindside then Barclay and Maggie are fighting him for it.

Can we really afford players of that calibre to not have much game time?