England 6N's Postmortem & Look Ahead

First topic message reminder :

Pinched this idea from the Scotland thread as it's so nicely done.

6 Nations results

Ire 20-32 Eng  
Eng 44-8 Fra  
Wales 21-13 Eng  
Eng 57-14 Italy  
Eng 38-38 Sco    

World Cup Warmups

England v Wales
Twickenham Stadium, London
Sunday 11th August 2019
Kick Off: 2:00pm


Wales v England
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Saturday 17th August 2019
Kick Off: TBC


England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 24th August 2019
Kick Off: 3:00pm


England v Italy
St James' Park, Newcastle
Friday 6th September 2019
Kick Off: 7:45pm

World Cup Fixtures

England v Tonga
Sapporo Dome, Sapporo
Sunday 22nd September 2019
Kick Off: 11:15am

England v USA
Kobe Misaki Stadium, Kobe
Thursday 26th September 2019
Kick Off: 11:45am

England v Argentina
Tokyo Stadium, Tokyo
Saturday 5th October 2019
Kick Off: 9:00am

England v France
International Stadium Yokohama, Yokohama
Saturday 12th October 2019
Kick Off: 9:15am

Throwing allegations of racism exclusively at English rugby is pretty lazy. After all the following "non-whites" have been selected by England in recent seasons:

Mako, Genge, Sinckler, Itoje, Isiekwe, Billy, Hughes, Cipriani, Eastmond, Joseph, Watson, Yards, Solomona, Rokoduguni, Cokanasiga.

Racism is pretty endemic across the UK, so it is bound to exist in rugby circles. The bigger issue is in the socio--conomic background of players. State schools do not play rugby in England bare a tiny minority. Even if they did the most talented sportsmen would still head to football.

The preponderance of public school boys in age group rugby teams for England is understandable and this filters into the senior team as so much emphasis is placed on that progression pathway. Yet we are not the only national team where going to the right school has an undue influence on the likelihood of playing for the national team.

I will accept there is racism both within rugby in England and in rugby within the rest of the UK. However stating that English Rugby in its entirety is racist is to tar everyone and in my view is lazy and inflammatory.

Unfortunately there is racism everywhere in the world. I live in NZ and it is just as bad, if not worse here, just towards different minorities then in the UK.

English rugby comes from very British beginnings but is working hard all the time to be more diverse and inclusive. The current England team is incredibly diverse and I think everyone realizes that's a good thing.

Either way I hope the Daly at 15 experiment is trialled again in the warm up games, but this time i'd like us to have Brown and Watson around the squad to also play 15. I'd feel a lot more confident knowing there was another 15 ready to take over if Daly is having a bad day, and in any knock out games i'd still start the slow, tunnel vision, angry Brown over Daly.

LondonTiger wrote:Throwing allegations of racism exclusively at English rugby is pretty lazy.

I certainly didn't do that. In fact, I quite literally said the opposite in terms of other countries. For clarification: this is a cultural thing that is probably not that relevant in the pro game, if at all. Certainly not among coaches or players in any conscious, active way. It's the levels beneath the pro game and either not encouraging or actively disencouraging people/children to succeed in the game based on perceptions of superiority.

LondonTiger wrote:I will accept there is racism both within rugby in England and in rugby within the rest of the UK. However stating that English Rugby in its entirety is racist is to tar everyone and in my view is lazy and inflammatory.

Again, I didn't do that, nor would I suggest it.

Is it endemic within certain, high achieving circles of the sport? Yes, absolutely. Are there those who are more casually oblivious, but perhaps 'believe' certain racial (and, as you say, class etc.) stereotypes that may make the hurdle for an 'outsider' that little bit higher when trying to prove themselves, particularly if said person is of a certain age? Again, yes, I believe that is common and have experienced that too. But are many people completely ambivalent to race when it comes to rugby? Again, true.

But even then - as I said - within the 'banter' culture, there is a norm and there is difference, and the norm is still very much your archetypal public school boy in England. Particularly within academies, universities, and the age grade systems. Inevitably - and in a way that makes total sense - it's always the less talented, the less able, or completely uninvolved who are the loudest/cruelest.

In rugby culture in general, ANY weakness is up for mild (or horrendous) ridicule, and done healthily, that can help reduce egos and bond a team together. Done poorly, and it can be a toxic environment used for borderline sociopaths to exact their anger and hatred on others.

Anyway, in terms of leadership, it was a general point not just focused on racism. The issue is one of values, systems, and what is deemed success and the manner to create that success. I've said why I think England lack leadership on the top level, and I think it is - at least in part - a cultural thing. It's not just this generation, it wasn't just Lancaster either, and it's not even a millennial thing. It's gone on for a while, it exists in the England football team and other sports as well. It is a specifically English (not Welsh, not Scottish, not Irish - idiotic suggestion that completely misunderstands the point) and, in the case of rugby, a specific part of England that sees itself as having inherited all the positives of British power, technology, wealth, creation, innovation, and relative superiority to much of the world. Just as certain French people deem themselves culturally superior; just as many Americans consider themselves nationally superior right now. It's a peculiar, egotistical thing - but it's powerful and I can absolutely still see it in the pro game in England. And in fact it goes beyond race, too - it's a level of arrogance that EJ clearly wants England to truly believe and embody, as England probably do play better when they're confident. And Maro Itoje is in danger of being a prime example of someone who's had a relatively privilged upbringing, who's clearly able and talented, and has had something of a gilded rugby career so far. He's young, so perhaps he'll mature, but his on pitch antics belie the carefully crafted media spin that has been done on him since the u20s: precisely to offset the kind of stale stereotype of English rugby, as well as sell it to a wider base, particularly as Britain's racial demographic changes. In the age of superficiality and identity politics, he's a fantastic marketing tool...but that still doesn't quite disprove the point I'm making, or even come close to doing so.

Anyway, again, short term change - I'd give Hartley captaincy, let Farrell focus on being vice captain, and make sure Lawes stays fit, along with Tuilalgi.

if You want to see xenophobia or racism just live in Wales for a while and observe the working class mentality. In rugby or general life.

Talk about deflecting the issue...!

No doubt, lots of racist idiots in Wales. Lots in England, too. In fact, racism is maybe even an almost unifying thing in nearly all types of people across the world.

But that's not really the point...

It’s exactly your point. You’re just trying to use racism as a stick to bash England and the English. More than a little ironic. Why you are doing this on a rugby forum is the strange thing. Go and post your views on other forums and stick to the sport on here. I’m sure you’ll get plenty of support for your agenda on nationalistic discussions from those who share your outlook. Especially in today’s divisive climate.

yappysnap wrote:Unfortunately there is racism everywhere in the world. I live in NZ and it is just as bad, if not worse here, just towards different minorities then in the UK.

Lol, racism is not worse in NZ than in England

Racism is very bad in NZ (similarly in Australia). In both countries it’s pretty much accepted.

Cyril wrote:It’s exactly your point. You’re just trying to use racism as a stick to bash England and the English. More than a little ironic. Why you are doing this on a rugby forum is the strange thing. Go and post your views on other forums and stick to the sport on here. I’m sure you’ll get plenty of support for your agenda on nationalistic discussions from those who share your outlook. Especially in today’s divisive climate.

For a self-styled WUM you have parchment-thin skin sometimes...

How racism is the only thing you picked up from this is weird. Why you're getting aggressive about it is anyone's guess. Very strange, but there we go.

Don't think adding to what I've already said is going to help matters. It certainly feels like people are skim-reading and 'reading' what they want to read.

Cyril wrote:Racism is very bad in NZ (similarly in Australia). In both countries it’s pretty much accepted.

Racism is more rife in Australia. Compare the modern treatment of Aborigines with Maori. Chalk and cheese. I lived in England in the early 2000s and was shocked by what I witnessed in the workplace (Transport for London). It wasn’t angry racism but ‘I’m better than you’ and ‘belittling’ racism and it was overt from top to bottom in the team I worked for. This was in cosmopolitan London! Not some backwater like Bradford where they have riots over race. Anyways, Brexit is a thing, why? Bit sick of foreigners in your country?

To be fair, with the absolute mess that has been made of cultural/social/economic integration in places like Bradford - in essence, a religiously and racically segregated town - I do understand why there's hostility to immigration among some Brexit voters. Not all, of course - not those who take their views from the media - but some.

However, this was not the point I was making!

ebooks, are you ignoring recent events? Wow.

Miaow, you know exactly the points you were making. I know it’s probably just a wind-up persona but you come across as xenophobic scum. Up to you if you want to apologise.

Cyril wrote:ebooks, are you ignoring recent events? Wow.

You mean that Australian white supremicist that murdered 50 NZers the other week? That monster should have stayed in Australia amongst his peers and racist elected politicians (eg Pauline Hanson, Fraser Anning etc).

No not that. It was more of a general comment. Scoring points against Australia is a bit distasteful based on that though.

Lol, ‘recent events’ and ‘just a general comment’. I don’t care much for Australia and their racist policies so I’m not scoring points. People should know the facts if they don’t already.

Sharkey06 wrote:miaow - if Wales are so good, why are their club sides so poor?  If England are so average, why have their club sides won so many European cups?  

Simple, because their clubs are inundated with SH players, who cant play for England. Wales are not, so struggle in club rugby but get better throughput into the test scene than England and France who have to exclude many better players.

Cyril wrote:Miaow, you know exactly the points you were making.  I know it’s probably just a wind-up persona but you come across as xenophobic scum. Up to you if you want to apologise.

So he apparently called England racist, and you respond by saying all of Wales is racist? Xenophobia here, there and everywhere it seems. Why the f*** do people start calling each other racist when they feel they might lose an argument, it’s beyond bloody tedious I tell ya.

Taylorman wrote:

Sharkey06 wrote:miaow - if Wales are so good, why are their club sides so poor?  If England are so average, why have their club sides won so many European cups?  

Simple, because their clubs are inundated with SH players, who cant play for England. Wales are not, so struggle in club rugby but get better throughput into the test scene than England and France who have to exclude many better players.

It’s a culmination of things but that is one contributing factor; 4 teams means that we are worse hit on international weekends. Scarlets are probably the exception to this but they’ve had a torrid year with injuries.

Well yeah England and France aren't selecting the VERY BEST of their club players- and by that, think of all previous SH internationals at their best test levels before getting into any 'they're not very good any more' comments, where from what Ive seen Ireland and Wales dont overload their club scene.

England and France probably should get better rested players by allowing the non qualifying SHers to play but golly gee their clubs make them play anyway

France particularly seem to have the Princes and the Paupers in the wrong pecking order- club players better and higher paid than their test players...quite funny really...

Cyril wrote:Miaow, you know exactly the points you were making.  I know it’s probably just a wind-up persona but you come across as xenophobic scum. Up to you if you want to apologise.

Wow. You need to chill out before you burst a blood vessel/go on a rampage. You sound unhinged.

Cyril wrote:Racism is very bad in NZ (similarly in Australia). In both countries it’s pretty much accepted.

Really? First I'd heard. If racism is 'very bad' in NZ compared to other countries then I don't really think racism is worth worrying about at all at a global level.

Sweet. I thought it was actually a big problem.

miaow wrote:It certainly feels like people are skim-reading and 'reading' what they want to read.

The best way to stop people picking up on points you don't want to defend - like your earlier inaccurate characterization of intenational rowing - is not to make them in the first place. That's especially true if you don't think the points are relevant to the argument you want to make.

Your whole argument seems to rest on the premise that there's a sense of cultural superiority running through the English which manifests itself in sport. Why is this not also true, then, of countries like France, Russia, China, Japan and Korea, which are all countries known to have quite high opinions of themselves?

Why, when it was the British Empire, do you maintain colonial superiority is an English characteristic? In Hong Kong and China, in particular, the face of British colonialism was often more Scottish than English. Features of British character and society of which we usually feel proud - sense of humour, the NHS, the BBC etc - are not English characteristics or achievements. You can't surgically extract the bits of Britishness and Britain you don't care for and label them English to make yourself feel better.

Even if your initial premise wasn't so weak, you'd still face the challenge of showing why all this apparently shows up so uniquely in rugby.

Ollie thorley out for the rest of this season so that probably ends any hope he had of going to the world cup.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ollie thorley out for the rest of this season so that probably ends any hope he had of going to the world cup.

Sad to hear. Whenever a good prospect misses selection wnidows through injury, I start thinking of Sinbad's international career.

Yeah strange how a little injury hear or there can massively impact careers both good and bad.

Im not sure Thorley would have gone to the world cup to be fair. But I don't like to hear of injuries to players...especially young talent like him.

Taylorman wrote:Well yeah England and France aren't selecting the VERY BEST of their club players- and by that, think of all previous SH internationals at their best test levels before getting into any 'they're not very good any more' comments, where from what Ive seen Ireland and Wales dont overload their club scene.

England and France probably should get better rested players by allowing the non qualifying SHers to play but golly gee their clubs make them play anyway

France particularly seem to have the Princes and the Paupers in the wrong pecking order- club players better and higher paid than their test players...quite funny really...

Once the league is ringfenced in the next year or two then we will be able to rest players and more of the young academy lads will get more gametime thus SH journey men will have to look elsewhere for their last pay day....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Well yeah England and France aren't selecting the VERY BEST of their club players- and by that, think of all previous SH internationals at their best test levels before getting into any 'they're not very good any more' comments, where from what Ive seen Ireland and Wales dont overload their club scene.

England and France probably should get better rested players by allowing the non qualifying SHers to play but golly gee their clubs make them play anyway

France particularly seem to have the Princes and the Paupers in the wrong pecking order- club players better and higher paid than their test players...quite funny really...

Once the league is ringfenced in the next year or two then we will be able to rest players and more of the young academy lads will get more gametime thus SH journey men will have to look elsewhere for their last pay day....

I hope for your sake it's not next year

Rugby Fan wrote:

miaow wrote:It certainly feels like people are skim-reading and 'reading' what they want to read.

The best way to stop people picking up on points you don't want to defend - like your earlier inaccurate characterization of intenational rowing - is not to make them in the first place. That's especially true if you don't think the points are relevant to the argument you want to make.

Your whole argument seems to rest on the premise that there's a sense of cultural superiority running through the English which manifests itself in sport. Why is this not also true, then, of countries like France, Russia, China, Japan and Korea, which are all countries known to have quite high opinions of themselves?

Why, when it was the British Empire, do you maintain colonial superiority is an English characteristic? In Hong Kong and China, in particular, the face of British colonialism was often more Scottish than English. Features of British character and society of which we usually feel proud - sense of humour, the NHS, the BBC etc - are not English characteristics or achievements. You can't surgically extract the bits of Britishness and Britain you don't care for and label them English to make yourself feel better.

Even if your initial premise wasn't so weak, you'd still face the challenge of showing why all this apparently shows up so uniquely in rugby.

Happy to let this drop now but, reading this, shows you clearly haven't understood anything I've said, and are effectively arguing with a strawman rather than the actual, specific points I made. All the 'counter' points you've just made do less than nothing in countering what I've said. So, best to just leave it I think.

There was much rejoicing.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I do wonder on the post mortem how much Mitchell s influence will come to the fore. I think most of us had picked out Daly as a defensive weakness in  regards positioning and high balls to a lesser or greater extent. Mitchell himself had said one of the most important aspects of defence is how qu8ck it can be turned to attack. I'm wondering if they're looking overall on the balance of someone like Daly there and seeing it as it's worth the risk and that he'll get better as Mitchell works with him. I'm.very much hoping they're looking around personally at other options.

Dont forget that Watson was already being worked in as the replacement for at FB for Brown before his injuries.
Whilst hes due back this or next weekend for Bath its a stretch to see him getting that first choice spot back for the world cup, but id expect him to be in extended training squad and given a chance in the warm ups to get in the cup squad. Id also see Watson in a similar bracket to Daly, not tainted by perception of a couple of recent problematic performances but still an attacking utility back who hasn't got a vast amount of experience as a fullback and a risky selection.

So yeah ...realistically it is a straight choice between continuing to work on Daly or going back to Brown, and using the other as bench/squad cover. I do think Dalys long term future is at full back and that he has the potential to be extremely good if he can sort out those basics under the high ball and positioning, part of that might be getting a better understanding and organisation (cough leadership) in the outside backs. The extended training camps and warm ups give opportunities for that, and theres no question that Daly will know personally where his weakneses are and hopefully be working on it now with his club.
With that boot, speed, and ability to go round players he has the attributes that Brown was critisized for lacking. As a pair they give England a Plan B option.

For what it is worth, I thought Daly was better under the high ball against Scotland, he actually caught most of them even when under pressure. Still not in Brown's class though, but few are.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Well yeah England and France aren't selecting the VERY BEST of their club players- and by that, think of all previous SH internationals at their best test levels before getting into any 'they're not very good any more' comments, where from what Ive seen Ireland and Wales dont overload their club scene.

England and France probably should get better rested players by allowing the non qualifying SHers to play but golly gee their clubs make them play anyway

France particularly seem to have the Princes and the Paupers in the wrong pecking order- club players better and higher paid than their test players...quite funny really...

Once the league is ringfenced in the next year or two then we will be able to rest players and more of the young academy lads will get more gametime thus SH journey men will have to look elsewhere for their last pay day....

Yep sure, so we get told a lot, pigs fuelled up, ready for take off

Sure England are the best NH team!!!

Lets put the opinion aside and deal with FACTS

Aside from Italy who are a waste of space, they just got humiliated again in the annual test of who is the best team in the NH. After pretty much assuring all of u they'd win it again.

Absolutely thrashed beyond belief by the Scots in one half of rugby. Shockingly poor, dreadful lack of discipline, game management and professionalism to squander a 30 pt lead. Almost unheard of at this level but the best team in the NH managed it. Strike 1.

Lost in Cardiff to the Champions after squandering a first half lead. Strike 2

So 3 wins, a loss and a draw makes them the best by comparison with GS Champions. Strike 3.

Keep this up fellas, this blind belief in something that is manifestly not the case guarantees another RWC failure - I guarantee Argentina and France will be well prepared to knock them down in Pool stages - and almost certainly is as a result of being lead by an arrogant buffoon in Eddie Jones and a petulant monosyllabic Capt - no not Hartley he was the last one of that kind. If you're looking for Adrian Mole I give you Owen 'Moley' Farrell.

Taylorman wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Well yeah England and France aren't selecting the VERY BEST of their club players- and by that, think of all previous SH internationals at their best test levels before getting into any 'they're not very good any more' comments, where from what Ive seen Ireland and Wales dont overload their club scene.

England and France probably should get better rested players by allowing the non qualifying SHers to play but golly gee their clubs make them play anyway

France particularly seem to have the Princes and the Paupers in the wrong pecking order- club players better and higher paid than their test players...quite funny really...

Once the league is ringfenced in the next year or two then we will be able to rest players and more of the young academy lads will get more gametime thus SH journey men will have to look elsewhere for their last pay day....

Yep sure, so we get told a lot, pigs fuelled up, ready for take off

What he actually meant was once 3 of the 6 nations are bankrupt and half of one has to apply for a visa to get to the other half of it then the SH journeymen will have to all go to France to get a payday.

Of course that a good chunk of the "home" nations academy lads are of SH descent these days in another thing, but at least it should put an end to this ingrained arrogance and racism they get from going to posh schools right.

Pie wrote:....they just got humiliated again in the annual test of who is the best team in the NH. After pretty much assuring all of u they'd win it again...

Are you sure you aren't talking about Ireland? England had a better autumn than most predicted but the jury was still out on Eddie Jones before the Six Nations started. Most pundits saw Ireland winning the title. That's who you mean isn't it?

Pundits only started talking up England's chances after the first round, and that's because Wales had looked poor against France, who were known as a flaky team themselves. Gatland may have always been confident Wales would prevail over the course of the Six Nations but it's hard to find many others who did. Even Welsh pundits were questioning how much faith Anscombe really deserved after that first match.

Rugby Fan, why do you bother, he is just fishing. Like a number of Welsh contributors on here, they are unable to contribute anything worthwhile to the boards, probably life itself. They just live to wind up the English. If they were just completely ignored they would go away or get so extreme they would be banned.

Do we get English trolls on the Welsh forums? I suspect we do not have the inherent dislike of the Welsh that they have of the English. A few more of their like on here might swing it though. If England did go it alone like just under half the Scots and N. Irish would seem to want us to do, they would sink to the economic levels of Romania, they know it and hate us for it.

At least Romania has good looking women going for it, the fluffy four legged kind doesn't quite have the same appeal

Lol I love how English on here always get personal when somebody welsh tells them the truth about their rugby. Pathetic little people.

Mikey, if you, Pie and Miaow didn’t come onto the England articles looking for an argument this wouldn’t happen.

I can't speak for anyone else but I've only been on here talking about rugby. I did notice some anti-welsh stuff though in relation to who said whatever, and I responded by talking about basic rugby facts... and then the culmination of all that is the usual people taking it to a personal level against Wales because they've been bettered at rugby - both on the field and the 606 chat. Pathetic little people given the free reign as per.

Cyril wrote:Mikey, if you, Pie and Miaow didn’t come onto the England articles looking for an argument this wouldn’t happen.

For argument read debate and if you insist on this childish position where posters can't disagree with you then STAY OFF THE WELSH THREADS

mikey_dragon wrote:Lol I love how English on here always get personal when somebody welsh tells them the truth about their rugby. Pathetic little people.

Welsh wums on tour.

Locking this thread to allow a neutral mod to review

Thread unlocked, pleases talk nicely!

...and only in the true mother tongue of Britain.

So, Cips looked very good again for Glos today