England 6N's Postmortem & Look Ahead

First topic message reminder :

Pinched this idea from the Scotland thread as it's so nicely done.

6 Nations results

Ire 20-32 Eng  
Eng 44-8 Fra  
Wales 21-13 Eng  
Eng 57-14 Italy  
Eng 38-38 Sco    

World Cup Warmups

England v Wales
Twickenham Stadium, London
Sunday 11th August 2019
Kick Off: 2:00pm


Wales v England
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Saturday 17th August 2019
Kick Off: TBC


England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 24th August 2019
Kick Off: 3:00pm


England v Italy
St James' Park, Newcastle
Friday 6th September 2019
Kick Off: 7:45pm

World Cup Fixtures

England v Tonga
Sapporo Dome, Sapporo
Sunday 22nd September 2019
Kick Off: 11:15am

England v USA
Kobe Misaki Stadium, Kobe
Thursday 26th September 2019
Kick Off: 11:45am

England v Argentina
Tokyo Stadium, Tokyo
Saturday 5th October 2019
Kick Off: 9:00am

England v France
International Stadium Yokohama, Yokohama
Saturday 12th October 2019
Kick Off: 9:15am

lostinwales wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:So no credit to Scotland at all ?

LD, please consider how you'd react to an England supporter coming onto a Welsh post mortem thread and posting the equivalent of some of the stuff you do and how you'd react. Then tell me you are not trolling.

I would not dismiss what the opposition has done due to my side allowing it for a start. It comes across as very arrogant, the same as members like you questioning why I am on a certain thread that has nothing to do with me when it's on an open forum setup for discussion.

I came on here out of interest, to gauge how the English fans saw their performances during the 6N, most of the members are sound in their appraisals, yet when I see people dismissing their oppositions performances because in their opinion their side let them, then I will question it, there is no trolling in that.

POT KETTLE BLACK.

I guess it's like thinking what Jones would be saying right now amongst his fellow coaches in private. He's not going to be looking back and lavishing praise at Scotland for the way they came back into the game and almost won it. No, that's time wasting for him. There is no point. He's England coach. Everything positive done by Scotland must be viewed as a weakness in his side that needs to be solved. So goes the fans.... or most fans. When their team is beaten or made work for a win, the fans think of weaknesses in their own side rather than spending too much time praising the opposition side

And so you have questioned it and had it answered. As you say it's how a forum works.

I wouldn't try and explain it he's always been a wum. Gets a thrill out of it. Best thing to do is ignore and hopefully he will move on.

An ill informed Wum at that.

2020 Guinness Six Nations fixtures
1/2 February

Wales v Italy Sat 2.15

Ireland v Scotland Sat 4.45

France v England Sun 3.00

8/9 February

Ireland v Wales Sat 2.15

Scotland v England Sat 4.45

France v Italy Sun 3.00

22/23 February

Italy v Scotland Sat 2.15

Wales v France Sat 4.45

England v Ireland Sun 3.00

7/8 March

Ireland v Italy Sat 2.15

England v Wales Sat 4.45

Scotland v France Sun 3.00

14 March

Wales v Scotland Sat 2.15

Italy v England Sat 4.45

France v Ireland Sat 8.00

2021 Guinness Six Nations Fixtures
6/7 February

Italy v France Sat 2.15

England v Scotland Sat 4.45

Wales v Ireland Sun 3.00

13/14 February

England v Italy Sat 2.15

Scotland v Wales Sat 4.45

Ireland v France Sun 3.00

27/28 February

Italy v Ireland Sat 2.15

Wales v England Sat 4.45 Roof Open

France v Scotland Sun 3.00

13/14 March

Italy v Wales Sat 2.15

England v France Sat 4.45

Scotland v Ireland Sun 3.00

20 March

Scotland v Italy Sat 2.15

Ireland v England Sat 4.45

France v Wales Sat 8.00

Ireland v England last day? Damn. Nothing ain't ever easy, is it. That's a potential banana skin for Wales first day. "Oh we're WC winners innit! It's only Italy. Put out our third string to start this thing off slowly....."

TightHEAD wrote:An ill informed Wum at that.

What is the phrase you shouted earlier? Summat about pots?



Gents there is no point calling anyone out as a wum. Either they are, and they are glad for a bite, or they are not and they get angry and defensive.

A few people have become offended across multiple posts accusing  English fans of arrogance for concentrating what went wrong with our team rather than praising the Scots.

Firstly Taylorman and Secretly have replied to that the best. While we can acknowledge what opposition do, we as fans will always concentrate on where our team needs to improve.

Secondly look at the match thread during the first half and at half time. Scottish voices were responding in the same way about their team.

But I'm well informed about a great many things.

Scottrf wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:So no credit to Scotland at all ?

LD, please consider how you'd react to an England supporter coming onto a Welsh post mortem thread and posting the equivalent of some of the stuff you do and how you'd react. Then tell me you are not trolling.

I think this is a bit of an overreaction? I think his posts have been fine, just a bit hyperbolic.

Now look here, anyone who can critically assess the ability of AWJ to get up off the floor and run from 22 to 22 at the same speed as a kick from his fly half definitely is not a poster that can be accused of hyperbole

I think the spine of England’s team has been weak this 6 Nations. 12 months ago there was a clamour for Jamie George to be England’s first choice hooker ahead of Dylan Hartley. After starting the test matches for the Lions, we hoped that when given the chance he would kick on and show that he was possibly the best in the world. He has been ok this tournament, with one or two nice touches in open play, but I would assume Ken Owens and Stuart McInally would be ahead of him in the team of the tournament.

Ben Youngs – England’s most capped scrumhalf – but has never fully convinced or nailed down the no 9 shirt. Very good against Ireland, missing in the second halves against Wales and Scotland. Not a ‘general’ as a Faf de Klerk or a Willi Heinz.

Billy Vunipola has had a couple of broken arms and some time out of the game, so can be forgiven for not being at his best. He was largely anonymous through the tournament with few trademark charges. Take that out of his game and he looks ordinary and is not a leader as such. Hopefully come the world cup he will be back up to full speed.

Owen Farrell is a good all around player, but isn’t a flyhalf who will dominate a game with craft. He will lead by example with a big hit, or a good kick, but lacks the game control of an inform Sexton. Without an intelligent centre or fullback (Brad Barritt and Alex Goode) to assist him, is his best role for England as inside centre, particularly as no one seems to be putting their hand up.

Elliot Daly can be a sublime attacking threat going forwards, but can be a defensive liability particularly under the high ball and is another player to go missing in games when the going gets tough. For all his detractors who would you have preferred to have in the 15 shirt in the second had against Scotland – Daly or Brown?

As has been said, the sum of Wales’s total is better than the sum of its parts. Gatland seems adept for Wales (and the Lions) in weeding out the weak characters and bringing in mentally tough individuals. Eddie Jones seems to have moved in the direction of trying to play more rugby ahead of hard nosed pragmatism and having seen the consequences he may change things in time for the world cup. In which case I will be praising him for the foresight to ‘try a few things’ and ‘give up a grand slam’ to improve England’s chances at the world cup. Is it time though to call back ‘Dads Army’ - Hartley, Robshaw, Wigglesworth and Brown?

Stupid question (althought Keith Wood says he didn't know either): Who was captain after Farrell was subbed?

Throufh a beer haze wasn't it Ford?

Rugby Fan wrote:Stupid question (althought Keith Wood says he didn't know either): Who was captain after Farrell was subbed?

Ford I believe.

Thanks LT and No 7&1/2.

Ricardo74 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:Why is no-one talking about Mako Vunipola for captain? I'm not saying he's the definite choice, but he never even gets a mention.

He ticks the box of a guaranteed starter
He's part of a successful domestic set-up (someone argued this for Itoje)
He stepped up to vice-captain when Farrell stepped up to captain
He has 56 England caps and 6 Lions caps across 2 tours
McCall after the Premiership final last year: "Mako is one of the smartest rugby brains I’ve ever come across. He sees things that fly-halves don’t see. I’m sure Eddie [Jones] will use him from a leadership point of view on tour."
Borthwick after his injury: "The leadership he gives, the presence he has, and the effect he has on those around him - that's incredibly significant."

Sometimes gets a namecheck as one of the leadership group, but never as captain. Just curious as to why?

I think that's a bloody good shout, and a really good question.

Is he perhaps perceived as "quiet"? I don't recall seeing him exhorting the troops, or gathering them in to lay down the law - even if we're just considering the forwards. I have this impression of Mako as a fairly humble guy (as ever, happy to be corrected), who wouldn't necessarily step up unless pressed to do so.

Nailed on starter, bags of experience, and - a bit like Johnson - a big, tough fella (just discovered the swearing filter - brilliant).

Body language is definitely something McCall mentioned in his praise for Mako, although only mentioned it to play it down. I think he said "he wouldn't win any prizes for body language, but" and then went on to say how great he was. Maybe he's too tired from all his scrum work, ruck work, 10+ carries and 20+ tackles a game to also cheerlead? He's often slouched and usually trying to catch his breath in breaks in play.

The role of a captain is so diverse, you have many facets to it. Tactical decisions, referee management, encouragement, probably some others I'm forgetting. Maybe Mako's tactical decisions are spot on, but he falls down on the others?

That kind of goes back to the wider point about a leadership group. If Mako has that tactical thinking, he should be encouraged to voice it, perhaps an official promotion to vice captain

Personally I'm not a fan of props being captains, they have enough responsibility and are almost guaranteed to be substituted. The same applies to hookers though, and there have been many successful captains who've played there - Fitzpatrick, Smit, Wood, Best to name a few, so maybe it is something to consider

BamBam wrote:That kind of goes back to the wider point about a leadership group. If Mako has that tactical thinking, he should be encouraged to voice it, perhaps an official promotion to vice captain

Personally I'm not a fan of props being captains, they have enough responsibility and are almost guaranteed to be substituted. The same applies to hookers though, and there have been many successful captains who've played there - Fitzpatrick, Smit, Wood, Best to name a few, so maybe it is something to consider

There was a time a couple of years back when it seemed half the Tier 1 countries had hookers as their permanent captains; Hartley, Best, Guirado, Creevey, Moore, Strauss - although not sure if there was ever total crossover. That followed the trend of having your 7 as captain (McCaw, Pocock/Hooper, Robshaw, Warburton, Dusautoir? Barclay?)

I think Mako was made vice captain when Hartley got dropped last year. I'm not sure if he continued in the role or not. I have no issues with a prop being a captain, Vickery did it, Smit did it when he shifted across. If your best captain happens to play prop, I think you go with it, even if it isn't ideal.

Who out of the team are actually club captains?

lostinwales wrote:Who out of the team are actually club captains?

Launchbury. Hartley is co-captain.

lostinwales wrote:Who out of the team are actually club captains?

Launchbury is Wasps club captain, and Daly captained the side a few times this season.

I guess as a club side you don't want a captain who is going to miss a lot of key weeks in the season? Hence you might not get a lot of International players captaining their sides.

lostinwales wrote:Who out of the team are actually club captains?

I remember asking this when Lancaster was in charge, and hadn't really decided who would be his captain if Robshaw went down (Tom Wood was his main second choice). Brad Barritt, Joe Marler (briefly & unhappily), Tom Youngs, Dylan Hartley and James Haskell had done spells club captain. Vaguely recall Twelvetrees doing it for his club at some point. It was thin pickings, when you consider not many were first choice. I'm sure I've left some out.

Since then, Ben Youngs,  Danny Care, Joe Launchbury and George Ford have all worn their captain's armband. Again, I'm sure I've left some out but it's not like anyone has been a dominant club captain.

Clubs seem to rotate through captains a lot more now as players move, get Int caps and get injured.

Quins have recently had Robshaw, Marler, Care and Horwill all in about 6 seasons.

Personally I'd go with Launchbury or Wilson. But I don't think it matters who exactly, it's more the culture of the team, where a lot of very vocal and experienced players at club level either aren't allowed or aren't given the right tools to be able to lead and control games mid game and that falls on Jones. What ever he is doing, it's building a very competitive team, but a team that seems to totally rely on him for all thinking.

I still think we need to stop and take a breath. Lulls happen. Looking back to the recent great NZ side they had these brain farts with world cups at the centre and the obvious example being France. They had some decent leaders in that side. They worked hard on it and didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Thats true 7.5.

I guess the other thing a lot of these England players now miss is big high pressure European knock outs. The old Eng teams would have Wasps and Tigers players who had all played in massive crunch club games to toughen them up.

Still if a sports psychologist can help then great.

AND BRING BACK BROWN!!

After the autumn Internationals and Ireland win, the English press seemed to grudgingly concede that Jones wasn't all at sea as a coach, and might have successfully rebooted his campaign.

At the end of this Six Nations, I've noticed a lot more pundits reverting to their original positions. A number seem to think Jones is still flogging the players in training. We know he got the Georgians in again, and Andy Goode claims to have heard that the week before Scotland was packed with gruelling sessions.

I'm not sure what to think of this. On the one hand, provided the players are still buying in to what Jones is selling, then it's not an issue. It becomes a problem if they begin to question whether the coach is on the right path. Ireland are in a similar situation, where voices outside the camp are doubting Schmidt.

There's a school of thought that Jones has been pushing training, as he's trying to replicate World Cup conditions, where there is no let-up. This thinking has Jones winding down his schedule at the tournament itself. Another school is that Jones is an inveterate meddler, who won't leave the players alone, which is a recipe for wearing his squad out.

I kind of go with the latter there.

When Gustard was leaving there was mention of Eddie's over controling nature, 4am text messages and very high expectations. Pressure that worked in the short term to effect change but in the long run caused people to burn out.

I do think Eddie as a coach has his faults, but he's also been remarkably good. Perhaps he really does need another strong personality to rein him in though, or else we could see the team crashing out exhausted later thia year.

With regard to the look ahead.
Another very promising lock off the production line at Saints, too soon for the RWV 2019, but will be there not long after. Alex Moon, 6'10" or close, well over 19 stone mobile and now becoming aggressive and learning to use his size and weight effectively. Makes and enormous number of tackles, very Launchburyesque, bit better in the line out and more mobile around the pitch. He will make a great foil for Lawes. Moon, Painter, Ludlum, plus the backs like Mallinder (soon to come back), Hutchinson, Grayson and Dingwall all coming through. The future is bright for Saints and England (Hutchinson does qualify as born in Cambridge and has spent all his life in England, just for some weird reason thinks he is Scottish)

Is it true that it will be either Sir Clive or Lord Warren as England HC come 2020?!!

Pie wrote:Is it true that it will be either Sir Clive or Lord Warren as England HC come 2020?!!

Nope. They are in the frame for France.

Jeez Clive must be a wind up surely?

OMG thats too funny....SCW in charge of France....Pllllllease let that happen. Mr I won the RWC in charge of the Chief Sulkers of World Rugby.

yappysnap wrote:Jeez Clive must be a wind up surely?

You'd really, really hope so.

I think it's obligatory press speculation. Like Eddie for the Lions. There may be nothing in it. But they'll print it and they'll ask them the questions.

Clive applied for the job before, if I remember rightly.

Someone on a regular podcast - I think it may have been Will Greenwood - thought it wasn't a bad idea because problems with French rugby are largely structural, and that's what Woodward proved good at dealing with.

Rugby Fan wrote:Clive applied for the job before, if I remember rightly.

Someone on a regular podcast - I think it may have been Will Greenwood - thought it wasn't a bad idea because problems with French rugby are largely structural, and that's what Woodward proved good at dealing with.

Oh. I meant you hope Clive wouldn't be in contention for the England job.

He could do something with France, maybe. I remember him being quite effusive about the job after one of the France games, saying it was the dream job as they have the players and the resources, they just need their heads banging together a bit.

Considering he left England in 2004 because of club vs country, maybe he'll find there's a limit to how much he can achieve and he'd be frustrated by it? Can't be much worse than the last few people though.

Maybe France could get Woodward in with a modern bunch of coaches underneath him? Possibly a french "head coach" who can take most of the day-to-day while Woodward sorts out big picture?

A Brit in charge of French rugby?

I think that would be highly amusing and very temporary

Rugby Fan wrote:Clive applied for the job before, if I remember rightly.

Someone on a regular podcast - I think it may have been Will Greenwood - thought it wasn't a bad idea because problems with French rugby are largely structural, and that's what Woodward proved good at dealing with.

...yeah, but that was 20 years ago. When rugby was still effectively amateur. Of course bringing in more focused training and psychlogical stuff is going to help a team that Jason Leonard was able to thrive in (no shade, but very old school, obviously - no way could you get away with drinking like that these days).

Clive still talks about T-CUP during his itv punditry as if it's some profound or relevant thing. There's no issue with changing the structure - but Woodward isn't a consultant. He doesn't appear to have kept up with the changes in business or rugby in the last 20 years.

It was nice hearing James Haskell rip into him as basically being out of touch - what was relevant at the 2015 RWC is barely relevant today. Let alone dredging up 2003 again...

He can't be a serious suggestion. Guy Noves might a good option fo-

Oh...

miaow wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Clive applied for the job before, if I remember rightly.

Someone on a regular podcast - I think it may have been Will Greenwood - thought it wasn't a bad idea because problems with French rugby are largely structural, and that's what Woodward proved good at dealing with.

...yeah, but that was 20 years ago.

When you listen to Woodward speak as a pundit, it does seem as if he is out of touch with the modern game. On the other hand, I heard David Flatman the other day saying that he found Woodward has an uncanny ability to call matches, something his wife confirmed he does regularly but he never bets, which annoys her (and Flatman too, when he heard about it). If he can still read a game, then he probably has more to offer than his rambling suggests.

I said on another thread that I'd like Ben Ryan involved with the next England set-up. You can get a good idea of what he thinks about rugby in this recent video:



He was asked about the England job.

"With all the stuff I went through at the RFU, it would take a lot to get me back working with the RFU. A lot of those people aren't there any more, which helps.

"I was talking to my agent today about stuff," he continued, "and I was saying I was keen to get back into full-time rugby. Not now, though. I'm happy with all the stuff I'm doing and I want to get the rest of my life all sorted, and then take on a good challenge.

"But the role doesn't really exist [with England] at what I'd like to do - that GM [General Manager] type, performance director role."

https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/ben-ryan-eddie-jones-225232

If you watch the show, you'll find even Haskell had some good observations about the sport.

Spencer was very good at the weekend. It's probably him, Care and Wigglesworth going for the world.cup squad along with youngs as the one guaranteed. Shiwedngood control and communication from the start.

Has Spencer ever got a look in with EJ? He's been a good prospect for a while now but always been behind Wigglesworth for Sarries.

Is Robson's injury that bad that he won't be around for the RWC?

yappysnap wrote:Has Spencer ever got a look in with EJ? He's been a good prospect

Yes, and no. He went on tour to South Africa when Care was left at home, and Robson was injured. He got two cameo appearances. When Robson got sick last month, he replaced him on the bench against Scotland, and got his third cap then.

In terms of caps, Youngs and Care are way out in front being selected by Jones. Then comes Wigglesworth (6), followed by Spencer (3), Robson (2), and Maunder (1).

That interview just makes it sound like Ryans ego is completely out of control.
Id like the England job but only on my terms. His qualifications being Sevens and having sat on his bum for three years.
I know he was asked the question (which of course would've been discussed with him before hand) but shouldn't his answer have been "Theres zero chance Id get offered it so why are you asking?"

The one bit I do agree with is that Jones hasn't given Cipriani all the opportunities he could've. The chances of him getting a spot arent getting any higher though with the likes of Slade offering squad cover for 10, and Farrell looking increasingly likely to start there rather than going as a utility centre.


Before the AIs Jones said his squad was 80% there. I wonder how much has changed? Excluding injury enforced changes Id guess its more who would be in the side rather than on the plane. Solomana, Tuillagi and Slade have all greatly enhanced their prospects from fringe to probables and Ashtons maybe been pushed off a bit but the core of the team is there. i dont see selections for the plane (starting team maybe different) being a huge issue this world cup, or that theres that many spots of players who could parachute in and make a serious difference.

The focus really should be more on how they get on the field leadership again (something something Hartley). I dont think Farrells quite got it as a captain. The sports psychologist thing seems right out of Lancaster playbook of showing the media what they want to see, although there are good examples of these people doing wonders it really smacks of a sideshow. He does have the players, they just seem to lack consistency and crumble if they aren't allowed to dictate the way the games played.
England used to have real swagger and confidence under Jones, maybe its the pressure of expectation now. When he first came in just providing a few wins was welcome relief, this year the expectation was winning a grand slam. Theyve gone from being a team who would close out tight games from behind to one that blows big leads and at times look to have collectively lost the plot.

Gooseberry wrote:
Before the AIs  Jones said his squad was 80% there. I wonder how much has changed? Excluding injury enforced changes Id guess its more who would be in the side rather than on the plane. Solomana, Tuillagi and Slade have all greatly enhanced their prospects from fringe to probables and Ashtons maybe been pushed off a bit but the core of the team is there. i dont see selections for the plane (starting team maybe different) being a huge issue this world cup, or that theres that many spots of players who could parachute in and make a serious difference.

 Do you mean Cokanasiga?

LondonTiger wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:
Before the AIs  Jones said his squad was 80% there. I wonder how much has changed? Excluding injury enforced changes Id guess its more who would be in the side rather than on the plane. Solomana, Tuillagi and Slade have all greatly enhanced their prospects from fringe to probables and Ashtons maybe been pushed off a bit but the core of the team is there. i dont see selections for the plane (starting team maybe different) being a huge issue this world cup, or that theres that many spots of players who could parachute in and make a serious difference.

 Do you mean Cokanasiga?

Err maybe

Agree with all of that. A season or two back you kind of felt that if we were close at 60 mins then we'd win, the game changers would come on and do the job.

I guess it's perhaps a mark of how he now uses the bench that there isn't that belief. Gone are the game changers and subs coming on to run away with the game. Now we have a bench that isn't used and subs that come on in drips with little impact.

yappysnap wrote:Agree with all of that. A season or two back you kind of felt that if we were close at 60 mins then we'd win, the game changers would come on and do the job.

I guess it's perhaps a mark of how he now uses the bench that there isn't that belief. Gone are the game changers and subs coming on to run away with the game. Now we have a bench that isn't used and subs that come on in drips with little impact.

Part of the problem is that several of the game changers have lately become starters (e.g. George, Sinckler, arguably Mako when fit, because Jones tended start Marler before he retired) or have been out of favour (Care). Some of that is likely to change before the RWC - Hartley should be available, Genge gives a different style off the bench, Care is likely to come back into consideration (For instance, would Care have made a difference against Wales? He's the sort of player who unlocks defences when the game starts to open up, and England desperately needed some of that. I can't see him not wanting that option come the RWC).

I do think that this 6N has been a bit about experimenting - but it's quite telling how little he trusted his bench. The RWC squad is probably going to be driven as much by who's fit and available as anything else, though. There are now enough players who've been exposed to international rugby to build a decent training camp, and I'd expect Eddie to whittle it down pretty quickly to a workable squad, where newbies are most likely to fill slots when the players he's relied on aren't fit or in form.

The full back situation theres two ways of looking at it...maybe he left it too late to give the non specialists time to adapt and hone the specific skills and instincts which are now being exposed (although had he been able to stick with Watson that wouldn't be a thing), or that yeah maybe Brown is old not that fast and a bit grumpy but he is actually good at the core full back skills ( although theres still a lot of top coaches/players swear blind he should on the wing ...).

I do think its very unlikely we will see any absolute uncapped bolters force there way into the final squad unless theres a bunch of injuries. Some of that old guard like Hartley, Brown, Care, and Robshaw have a better chance of making it back and maybe offering a bit more on field leadership/experience. Also the likes of JJ and Watson who pre injury were key parts of the successful England shouldn't be written off.
Theres talk of Itoje as a future captain and currently part of the leadership group, but hes not exactly a Wyn Jones type character is he. Going back to whne he and others first starting getting capped this was something Eddie picked up on regarding the younger England players, they are a bit meek and quiet when it comes to on field leadership.
(Something about a 50 cap cavalry)

Wigglesworth is talking about coaching roles now, which kinda suggests he isnt expecting to get in the world cup squad. I guess FH is the most open position, but Robson not even getting off the bench does make it pretty clear Jones is married to Youngs as his starter even if squad places are still up for grabs.