Pro 14 Run in, who finishes where

First topic message reminder :

Current Standings (Position overall log)

Conference A
2 Glasgow 71(2) Leinster (a), Edinburgh (h) T3=1 M=1 B3=0
3 Munster 68 (3) Benetton (a), Connacht (h) T3=0 M=2 B3=0
5 Connacht 56 (4) Blues (h), Munster (a) T3=1 M=1 B3=0
6 Blues 52 (6) Connacht (a), Ospreys (h) T3=0 M=2 B3=0
10 Ospreys 49 (9) Kings (a), Blues (a) T3=0 M=1 B3=1
11 Cheetahs 36 (11) Dragons (h), Kings (h) T3=0 M=0 B3=2
14 Zebre 19 (14) Scarlets (a), Benetton (h) T3=0 M=2 B3=0

Conference B
1 Leinster 74 (1) Glasgow (h), Ulster (a) T3=1 M=1 B3=0
4 Ulster 54 (5) Edinburgh (a), Leinster (h) T3=1 M=1 B3=0
7 Benetton 52 (7) Munster (h), Zebre (a) T3=1 M=0 B3=1
8 Edinburgh 51 (8) Ulster (h), Glasgow (a) T3=1 M=1 B3=0
9 Scarlets 45 (10) Zebre (h), Dragons (a) T3=0 M=0 B3=2
12 Kings 22 (12) Ospreys (h), Cheetahs (a) T3=0 M=2 B3=0
13 Dragons 21 (13) Cheetahs (a), Scarlets (h) T3=0 M=2 B3=0

In the Conference System
First - Home Semi, Glasgow (+3), Leinster (confirmed)
Second - Home Quarter, Munster (+12), Ulster (+2)
Third - Quarterfinal, Connacht (+4), Benetton (+1)

Champs Cup playoff
Home (Highest fourth) Blues (+3)
Away Edinburgh (+6)

Wooden Spoon
Zebre (-2)

Home Semi is confirmed as Leinster with Glasgow or Munster taking the other spot.
Home Quarter seems to be the loser of Munster/Glasgow and any of Bennetton, Ulster or Edinburgh
The last spot in the quarters look a shootout between Connacht and Blues.

If you add in Ospreys with an outside chance of Champs Cup there are 7 teams fighting for the remaining 4 places.  If any of the Pro14 teams win either Euro then the highest placed fourth gets the spot and 5th in the Conference goes into the playoff (unless that team winning don't make the playoffs i.e. Edinburgh)

The wooden spoon will be an interesting fight with 3 teams only divided by 2 points.  The Kings seem to have the up hand due to their ability to get Bps.

This has backed up last year of the middle teams really after upping their game and making every game from now till the end a game of meaning for both team (such as Connacht v Bennetton this week is bad for the losing team, for the winner they might still be on a knife edge)

What are people predictions for the final standings.

The Fixtures show Edinburgh with the hardest run in playing two of the top 3 teams and none of the bottom three.  Scarlets on the other hand have none of the top 3 but 2 of the bottom 3 as do Cheetahs. Ospreys play 3 of the bottom 4 plus the Blues so could close the gap on the Blues. They are on a 6 game losing streak in all competitions so might not be any help.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Best league in the world.

Just watched the Chiefs v Sharks in an error strewn, ill-disciplined game with porous defences and iffy officials - so have to agree with you.

I went to see the Chiefs play the Jaguares in Velez Sarsfield in March of this year and while I loved the game and experience the quality of rugby was definitely not better than an everage pro 14 game. Probably similar albeit more error strewn.The fanzone and general super rugby branding and organisation was probably better than what the pro 14 would offer but not the quality. I would highly recommend a trip to watch a game though.

Surely of the teams in Super Rugby only Crusaders are superior to any NH teams.

The rest are much of a the same.

Having seen a poor centre play at Toulon who looked lost at European level go back to the Blues and playing really well says that the glory days of Super Rugby are in the past as the best league in the world.

It is now taking SH imports longer to get up to speed with the NH teams.

Brendan wrote:Surely of the teams in Super Rugby only Crusaders are superior to any NH teams.

The rest are much of a the same.

Having seen a poor centre play at Toulon who looked lost at European level go back to the Blues and playing really well says that the glory days of Super Rugby are in the past as the best league in the world.

It is now taking SH imports longer to get up to speed with the NH teams.

Agreed.

So only one Welsh team in the Champions Cup.

Since the rules changed Ireland have been the only winner from a Pro14 point of view.  Every year Ireland has had their 3 top teams and next year will be the second year all four will get in.  Scotland have had 2 teams only once, Wales never had more than two and Italy never more than one.

Brendan wrote:So only one Welsh team in the Champions Cup.

Since the rules changed Ireland have been the only winner from a Pro14 point of view.  Every year Ireland has had their 3 top teams and next year will be the second year all four will get in.  Scotland have had 2 teams only once, Wales never had more than two and Italy never more than one.

Ireland will now of had

This appears to be a WUM. I thought we were trying to crack down on that, for the greater good of the forum?


Edit: wait, on reflection I think it’s just bragging? And an unfinished post?! Anyway, good for you Brendan and Ireland. Congratulations

Doing three things at once.

It was suggested that Irish teams had it too easy to get to Europe so they made it more difficult to get a place in the Champions Cup so they would have to work for their spots.  What it has done is made it easier to get all their teams in then it use to be as before one of the Irish teams needed to win one of the cups.

The league has improved alot since those days of the early 2000s in a big part because of the changes to qualification.  At the time it was rumoured that the Regions jumped ship but they have ended up having the new system negatively affect them the most after Italy.

What’s made it easier for Ireland is having 4 poor welsh regional teams in the same league! Much easier to qualify for Europe if nearly a third of the competition is unlikely to challenge the top spots of the league.

The Oracle wrote:What’s made it easier for Ireland is having 4 poor welsh regional teams in the same league! Much easier to qualify for Europe if nearly a third of the competition is unlikely to challenge the top spots of the league.

But Welsh teams have challenged for the top spots of the league, Oracle. Not much points difference between the teams in 7/8/9 spots in the combined standings from the two conferences.

And no doubt, the regions will improve again as the WRU puts more money into them, and get better coaches in. And for all the supposed hype and hoopla, the four Irish provinces are not that great shakes with Leinster being the best of them. When did Munster or Ulster last win something?

Ospreys v Scarlets
REF: Man from Gowerton, Swansea.

Glasgow v Ulster
REF: Man employed by IRFU

PRO14 Semifinals

Glasgow v Ulster

John Lacey from Tipperary, Munster IRFU
Andrew Brace from Cardiff, Wales IRFU
George Clancy from Limerick, Munster IRFU
Olly Hodges, Dublin, Leinster IRFU

Leinster v Munster

Mike Adamson - Stirling, Scotland SRU
Lloyd Linton from Belfast, Ulster IRFU
Keith Allen - Belfast, Ulster SRU
Neil Paterson, Scotland SRU


7th Place Playoff
Ospreys v Scarlets

Ben Whitehouse WRU
Nigel Ownes WRU
Dan Jones WRU
Ian Davies WRU

Pot Hale wrote:

The Oracle wrote:What’s made it easier for Ireland is having 4 poor welsh regional teams in the same league! Much easier to qualify for Europe if nearly a third of the competition is unlikely to challenge the top spots of the league.

But Welsh teams have challenged for the top spots of the league, Oracle.   Not much points difference between the teams in 7/8/9 spots in the combined standings from the two conferences.

And no doubt, the regions will improve again as the WRU puts more money into them, and get better coaches in.  And for all the supposed hype and hoopla, the four Irish provinces are not that great shakes with Leinster being the best of them.   When did Munster or Ulster last win something?  

Yes, the only way is up for the Welsh teams. I was commenting on Brendan's post where he said the qualification thing has made it easier for Ireland to get 4 teams in, but I was merely pointing out that other teams in the league being crap will (obviously) helps things along too. I'm only stating the obvious really!

The Oracle wrote:What’s made it easier for Ireland is having 4 poor welsh regional teams in the same league! Much easier to qualify for Europe if nearly a third of the competition is unlikely to challenge the top spots of the league.

So the Welsh have one bad season and the Irish do what they've done fairly consistently and the drop off from the Welsh helped?

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:What’s made it easier for Ireland is having 4 poor welsh regional teams in the same league! Much easier to qualify for Europe if nearly a third of the competition is unlikely to challenge the top spots of the league.

So the Welsh have one bad season and the Irish do what they've done fairly consistently and the drop off from the Welsh helped?

Stop trying to read between the lines and find offence in everything and just read what is actually there. It is basic logic that if the competition is poorer then getting all 4 teams into Europe will be somewhat easier. Or to look at it another way, if the Welsh/Scottish/Italian teams were ALL better than the Irish this year then the Irtish teams would find it harder to qualify. Obviously. It's really nothing more than that.

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:What’s made it easier for Ireland is having 4 poor welsh regional teams in the same league! Much easier to qualify for Europe if nearly a third of the competition is unlikely to challenge the top spots of the league.

So the Welsh have one bad season and the Irish do what they've done fairly consistently and the drop off from the Welsh helped?

Stop trying to read between the lines and find offence in everything and just read what is actually there.  It is basic logic that if the competition is poorer then getting all 4 teams into Europe will be somewhat easier.  Or to look at it another way, if the Welsh/Scottish/Italian teams were ALL better than the Irish this year then the Irtish teams would find it harder to qualify.  Obviously.  It's really nothing more than that.

Maybe Treviso, Connacht and Ulster upping their game just made it harder for the Welsh

Ouch. Pro14 getting absolutely roasted on their twitter feed by fans of all the teams involved. Not a good look:

https://twitter.com/PRO14Official/status/1127968581088681984

One of our former regulars getting a little upset on that feed.

LondonTiger wrote:One of our former regulars getting a little upset on that feed.

Wonder who that might be

Strange that people seem to think that officials who ignored a headbutt and shoulder to the head of an Ulster player are somehow going to help Ulster

After Leinster, Glasgow & Munster the Pro14 has the chasing pack of everyone else except Dragons, Kings and Zebre.

Before Connacht had to place higher than Ulster for the only spot available.  I think in all the years Connacht have only finished above another Irish team once and that was when they won the league.

Now there are 4 spots instead of one and they are fighting against teams they have finished above more often than they have the three Irish teams.  Thus it is easier for them to qualify because if they don't finish above Ulster they are still have a chance

I have to say it really couldn't have been that hard to move around the appointments for this weekends matches. Swap to form the Glasgow/Ulster with two from the Welsh match.

What's annoyed me more is Joy Neville hasn't got any games. This season she has be consistently one of the best officials on show

carpet baboon wrote:I have to say it really couldn't have been that hard to move around the appointments for this weekends matches. Swap to form the Glasgow/Ulster with two from the Welsh match.

What's annoyed me more is Joy Neville hasn't got any games. This season she has be consistently one of the best officials on show

You would have thought she would if he has been performing well. Do the male refs cover the women's game too?

carpet baboon wrote:
What's annoyed me more is Joy Neville hasn't got any games. This season she has be consistently one of the best officials on show

Looking at the appointments for the RWC and these appointments you have to wonder what criteria they use to assess refs

Garner said in his interview a few weeks ago that refs who make mistakes are stood down, George Clancy has yet to be stood down for missing McFaddens headbutt

There's a risk of someone like Joy Neville being lost to the league by continually overlooking her consistency

Connacht have finished above the following teams on points since the Pro 12 (9years). They have finished higher than two Irish teams (which was the same year) over the 9 years. Every other team in the league they have finished ahead of on at least two occasions over that same period.

So it is not a slight against Welsh, Scottish or Italian teams just that Connacht would have to finish in the top 4 most seasons to get that 3rd Irish spot. Now they just need to finish in the top 6 to qualify.

Leinster 0
Munster 1
Ulster 1

Blues 4
Ospreys 2
Scarlets 2

Glasgow 2
Edinburgh 6
Benetton 7

When you talk about consistency. How many games has she reffed in the league?

I know that by her own omission she is not ready for six nations games so I think she does lack some experience to date. I think it would be odd to include her for RWC games having never reffed a 6 nations game.

Collapse2005 wrote:When you talk about consistency. How many games has she reffed in the league?

I know that by her own omission she is not ready for six nations games so I think she does lack some experience to date. I think it would be odd to include her for RWC games having never reffed a 6 nations game.

When did she say she wasn't ready? I'm talking about the league here

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:What’s made it easier for Ireland is having 4 poor welsh regional teams in the same league! Much easier to qualify for Europe if nearly a third of the competition is unlikely to challenge the top spots of the league.

So the Welsh have one bad season and the Irish do what they've done fairly consistently and the drop off from the Welsh helped?

Stop trying to read between the lines and find offence in everything and just read what is actually there.  It is basic logic that if the competition is poorer then getting all 4 teams into Europe will be somewhat easier.  Or to look at it another way, if the Welsh/Scottish/Italian teams were ALL better than the Irish this year then the Irtish teams would find it harder to qualify.  Obviously.  It's really nothing more than that.

Maybe Treviso, Connacht and Ulster upping their game just made it harder for the Welsh

Yes, of course. But this discussion (between Brendan and I) wasn't about the Welsh. It was about qualification rule changes making it easier for the Irish (according to Brendan).

Collapse2005 wrote:When you talk about consistency. How many games has she reffed in the league?

I know that by her own omission she is not ready for six nations games so I think she does lack some experience to date. I think it would be odd to include her for RWC games having never reffed a 6 nations game.

I know as of sep 18 she had reffed 2 Pro 14 games, so by now I'm guessing a good few more She has reffed international women's and men's. European challenge cup. Welsh prem, and seems to be one of the few ARs who police the offside line for the ref.
For me she has been by far one of the best ref/ ARs this season and she should be rewarded for it.

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:What’s made it easier for Ireland is having 4 poor welsh regional teams in the same league! Much easier to qualify for Europe if nearly a third of the competition is unlikely to challenge the top spots of the league.

So the Welsh have one bad season and the Irish do what they've done fairly consistently and the drop off from the Welsh helped?

Stop trying to read between the lines and find offence in everything and just read what is actually there.  It is basic logic that if the competition is poorer then getting all 4 teams into Europe will be somewhat easier.  Or to look at it another way, if the Welsh/Scottish/Italian teams were ALL better than the Irish this year then the Irtish teams would find it harder to qualify.  Obviously.  It's really nothing more than that.

Maybe Treviso, Connacht and Ulster upping their game just made it harder for the Welsh

Yes, of course.  But this discussion (between Brendan and I) wasn't about the Welsh.  It was about qualification rule changes making it easier for the Irish (according to Brendan).

Sorry I hadn't realised it was a private forum, there was me thinking I was challenging your point on the Welsh teams declining...even though 3 of the 4 are on par with last seasons performances

carpet baboon wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:When you talk about consistency. How many games has she reffed in the league?

I know that by her own omission she is not ready for six nations games so I think she does lack some experience to date. I think it would be odd to include her for RWC games having never reffed a 6 nations game.

I know as of sep 18 she had reffed 2 Pro 14 games, so by now I'm guessing a good few more She has reffed international women's and men's. European challenge cup. Welsh prem, and seems to be one of the few ARs who police the offside line for the ref.
For me she has been by far one of the best ref/ ARs this season and she should be rewarded for it.

That's pretty spot on, it's not just about being a ref it's about being an AR too where good performances are not rewarded. Like I said Clancy and to a lesser extent Brace made poor decisions and are retained, we were told just a few weeks ago these things would see refs stood down.

marty2086 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:When you talk about consistency. How many games has she reffed in the league?

I know that by her own omission she is not ready for six nations games so I think she does lack some experience to date. I think it would be odd to include her for RWC games having never reffed a 6 nations game.

When did she say she wasn't ready? I'm talking about the league here

Yeah but did you not say she should be given RWC games? She said in Feb of this year that she wasn't ready for 6 nations games.

https://www.the42.ie/joy-neville-the42-rugby-weekly-referee-4506291-Feb2019/

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:What’s made it easier for Ireland is having 4 poor welsh regional teams in the same league! Much easier to qualify for Europe if nearly a third of the competition is unlikely to challenge the top spots of the league.

So the Welsh have one bad season and the Irish do what they've done fairly consistently and the drop off from the Welsh helped?

Stop trying to read between the lines and find offence in everything and just read what is actually there.  It is basic logic that if the competition is poorer then getting all 4 teams into Europe will be somewhat easier.  Or to look at it another way, if the Welsh/Scottish/Italian teams were ALL better than the Irish this year then the Irtish teams would find it harder to qualify.  Obviously.  It's really nothing more than that.

Maybe Treviso, Connacht and Ulster upping their game just made it harder for the Welsh

Yes, of course.  But this discussion (between Brendan and I) wasn't about the Welsh.  It was about qualification rule changes making it easier for the Irish (according to Brendan).

Sorry I hadn't realised it was a private forum, there was me thinking I was challenging your point on the Welsh teams declining...even though 3 of the 4 are on par with last seasons performances

I never said the Welsh teams were declining. I said there were 4 poor Welsh regional teams in the league.

carpet baboon wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:When you talk about consistency. How many games has she reffed in the league?

I know that by her own omission she is not ready for six nations games so I think she does lack some experience to date. I think it would be odd to include her for RWC games having never reffed a 6 nations game.

I know as of sep 18 she had reffed 2 Pro 14 games, so by now I'm guessing a good few more She has reffed international women's and men's. European challenge cup. Welsh prem, and seems to be one of the few ARs who police the offside line for the ref.
For me she has been by far one of the best ref/ ARs this season and she should be rewarded for it.

Hang on you say she has been consistently been good in the pro14 but you don't know how many games she has reffed, is that correct?

Mens internationals - she reffed Norway or something no?
Euro challenge cup is good alright but Welsh prem and AIL is ok.

You say she has been one of the best but Id be interested to see how many games she has actually reffed.

Collapse2005 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:When you talk about consistency. How many games has she reffed in the league?

I know that by her own omission she is not ready for six nations games so I think she does lack some experience to date. I think it would be odd to include her for RWC games having never reffed a 6 nations game.

When did she say she wasn't ready? I'm talking about the league here

Yeah but did you not say she should be given RWC games? She said in Feb of this year that she wasn't ready for 6 nations games.

https://www.the42.ie/joy-neville-the42-rugby-weekly-referee-4506291-Feb2019/

Except that's not what she said, she said she was nowhere near reffing a game that's different to not being ready

I think she should be on the panel at least as an AR, the criteria though is the issue as to why certain refs get picked. The world is pretty much united in the fact Lacey and Clancy shouldn't ref any professional game, WR and Greg Garner seem to disagree, we don't know why they select the refs they do, this is part of the issue

marty2086 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:When you talk about consistency. How many games has she reffed in the league?

I know that by her own omission she is not ready for six nations games so I think she does lack some experience to date. I think it would be odd to include her for RWC games having never reffed a 6 nations game.

When did she say she wasn't ready? I'm talking about the league here

Yeah but did you not say she should be given RWC games? She said in Feb of this year that she wasn't ready for 6 nations games.

https://www.the42.ie/joy-neville-the42-rugby-weekly-referee-4506291-Feb2019/

Except that's not what she said, she said she was nowhere near reffing a game that's different to not being ready

I think she should be on the panel at least as an AR, the criteria though is the issue as to why certain refs get picked. The world is pretty much united in the fact Lacey and Clancy shouldn't ref any professional game, WR and Greg Garner seem to disagree, we don't know why they select the refs they do, this is part of the issue

Here is the full quote:

“I’m very realistic about my goals. People say to me, ‘Oh, you’ll referee a men’s Six Nations game but, for me, I’m nowhere near reffing a Six Nations game at the moment and I won’t be for another couple of years.

“I need to keep the head down and prove my place as a referee in the world and earn my stripes. My next goal would to be on the line as an assistant referee for the Six Nations and if that happens, I’ll be a very proud woman.

I think you would have to agree that the tone of what she is saying is that she is not ready otherwise why would she go on to say she needs to earn her stripes?

I might be wrong but I think she to date has only reffed about 5 or 6 pro 14 games if even that many and never a top level mens international nor champions cup game.

She is also not on the pro14 elite refereeing panel yet. I personally think she should be given more pro14 games if she is good but one step at a time.

Except WR want refs to accumulate so many games at different levels before moving on to the next level, x number of league/European games gets you onto the 6 Nations roster, X number of 6 Nations games get you into consideration for the RWC.

Collapse2005 wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:When you talk about consistency. How many games has she reffed in the league?

I know that by her own omission she is not ready for six nations games so I think she does lack some experience to date. I think it would be odd to include her for RWC games having never reffed a 6 nations game.

I know as of sep 18 she had reffed 2 Pro 14 games, so by now I'm guessing a good few more She has reffed international women's and men's. European challenge cup. Welsh prem, and seems to be one of the few ARs who police the offside line for the ref.
For me she has been by far one of the best ref/ ARs this season and she should be rewarded for it.

Hang on you say she has been consistently been good in the pro14 but you don't know how many games she has reffed, is that correct?

Mens internationals - she reffed Norway or something no?
Euro challenge cup is good alright but Welsh prem and AIL is ok.

You say she has been one of the best but Id be interested to see how many games she has actually reffed.

I couldn't tell you how many games Clancy has reffed as I don't keep count but I can tell you he has been average at best and more often than not poor.

What I can tell you is that Neville when I have seen her ref or AR in both men's and women's games has shown a level of consistency in decision and communication with the players, and officiating team that is well above what I have seen with many other refs.

Now I don't care who refs I just want the best on offer, and in my opinion having seen her performance this season she is one of the best.
Would also like to mention the young Italian ref who appeared at the start of this season, had a good game but I thought was let down by his ARs and was never seen if again (if anyone knows please let me know)

Yeah he has reffed lots over the last 15 or so years. He is divisive alright but most refs have a Wikipedia page of controversies over a 15 year career. He once got a payout of about €20k from Shannon RFC I think for being assaulted by their staff.

One thing is for sure if she is that good she should be given more pro 14 games and added to the elite panel and hopefully that will be the case. Sadly with higher profile games comes more media scrutiny, pressure and controversy.

Nigel Owens will be reffing the WRU relegation play off this weekend, WRU officials unavailable this weekend then?

No idea what Neville has or not said but what I will say, on the evidence I have seen with my own eyes, is she is already better than, at least, half the referees in the Pro14

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:What’s made it easier for Ireland is having 4 poor welsh regional teams in the same league! Much easier to qualify for Europe if nearly a third of the competition is unlikely to challenge the top spots of the league.

So the Welsh have one bad season and the Irish do what they've done fairly consistently and the drop off from the Welsh helped?

Stop trying to read between the lines and find offence in everything and just read what is actually there.  It is basic logic that if the competition is poorer then getting all 4 teams into Europe will be somewhat easier.  Or to look at it another way, if the Welsh/Scottish/Italian teams were ALL better than the Irish this year then the Irtish teams would find it harder to qualify.  Obviously.  It's really nothing more than that.

Maybe Treviso, Connacht and Ulster upping their game just made it harder for the Welsh

Yes, of course.  But this discussion (between Brendan and I) wasn't about the Welsh.  It was about qualification rule changes making it easier for the Irish (according to Brendan).

Sorry I hadn't realised it was a private forum, there was me thinking I was challenging your point on the Welsh teams declining...even though 3 of the 4 are on par with last seasons performances

I never said the Welsh teams were declining.  I said there were 4 poor Welsh regional teams in the league.

The third Irish team has only finished outside the top 6 since the Italians joined on one occasion and that was last year when they finished 7th.  In that same time period the 3rd highest Welsh team has finished in the top 6 once 10/11. The Scottish 2nd team once 17/18 and Italian never (highest 7th).  So if Connacht finished 7th any year (which they did) it would not have been good enough any year except last year when they would have been level with the 3rd team.

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:What’s made it easier for Ireland is having 4 poor welsh regional teams in the same league! Much easier to qualify for Europe if nearly a third of the competition is unlikely to challenge the top spots of the league.

So the Welsh have one bad season and the Irish do what they've done fairly consistently and the drop off from the Welsh helped?

Stop trying to read between the lines and find offence in everything and just read what is actually there.  It is basic logic that if the competition is poorer then getting all 4 teams into Europe will be somewhat easier.  Or to look at it another way, if the Welsh/Scottish/Italian teams were ALL better than the Irish this year then the Irtish teams would find it harder to qualify.  Obviously.  It's really nothing more than that.

Maybe Treviso, Connacht and Ulster upping their game just made it harder for the Welsh

Yes, of course.  But this discussion (between Brendan and I) wasn't about the Welsh.  It was about qualification rule changes making it easier for the Irish (according to Brendan).

Sorry I hadn't realised it was a private forum, there was me thinking I was challenging your point on the Welsh teams declining...even though 3 of the 4 are on par with last seasons performances

I never said the Welsh teams were declining.  I said there were 4 poor Welsh regional teams in the league.

So the Welsh teams are always poor?

Scarlets, Ospreys and Blues have all won trophys since Ulster or Munster last did
Blues and Scarlets have also won trophys since Connacht last did

In the Pro14 and Challenge Cup the Welsh have done well
The problem is they have not been able to regularly compete in the major European competition

Their poor performance this year are more down to disorganisation and poor management than money

geoff999rugby wrote:Scarlets, Ospreys and Blues have all won trophys since Ulster or Munster last did
Blues and Scarlets have also won trophys since Connacht last did

In the Pro14 and Challenge Cup the Welsh have done well
The problem is they have not been able to regularly compete in the major European competition

Their poor performance this year are more down to disorganisation and poor management than money

The problem though is that Glasgow and the 3 top Irish teams have consistently in the top 6.  That leaves 2 spots for the three Welsh teams.

Munster and Ulster though do need to win a trophy as they have been semi finalist and a few finals but have nothing to show. For the fans that needs to change. Ulster seem to be building, Munster not so sure

It doesn't leave two spots for the Welsh - they can contest all spots like anyone else.
What is does show is that in a good year the Welsh do compete.
They have three teams who are there or thereabouts, and often two teams are contesting hard for prizes.
What has to be questioned is why this year none of the teams were at the races

geoff999rugby wrote:
What has to be questioned is why this year none of the teams were at the races

Very poor this year from the Welsh teams.

Ospreys - still suffering from Steve Tandy's legacy but look to have clicked recently.
Scarlets - Coaches have checked out and it's filtered down to players
Cardiff Blues - A few results cost them.

Next season:
Cardiff Blues: Will really struggle given their budget has decreased to just under £6m
Ospreys: Not sure. They could challenge if they keep up their form.
Scarlets: With their new coaching staff and budget of £7m, I expect to get near the top 2 or 3 in conference.

geoff999rugby wrote:It doesn't leave two spots for the Welsh - they can contest all spots like anyone else.
What is does show is that in a good year the Welsh do compete.
They have three teams who are there or thereabouts, and often two teams are contesting hard for prizes.
What has to be questioned is why this year none of the teams were at the races

Grand slam efforts.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
What has to be questioned is why this year none of the teams were at the races

Very poor this year from the Welsh teams.

Ospreys - still suffering from Steve Tandy's legacy but look to have clicked recently.
Scarlets - Coaches have checked out and it's filtered down to players
Cardiff Blues - A few results cost them.

Next season:
Cardiff Blues: Will really struggle given their budget has decreased to just under £6m
Ospreys: Not sure. They could challenge if they keep up their form.
Scarlets: With their new coaching staff and budget of £7m, I expect to get near the top 2 or 3 in conference.

And the Dragons, finished on a massive high with Dean Ryan at the helm hopefully they could be a very different entity next season.

5 wins, two against Welsh teams was an improvement.
They were starting from a low base but were better. In the 4 games they lost against Welsh teams it was only by a small margin.

Got a few monkeys off their backs which helps from a metal point of view.

The Oracle wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It doesn't leave two spots for the Welsh - they can contest all spots like anyone else.
What is does show is that in a good year the Welsh do compete.
They have three teams who are there or thereabouts, and often two teams are contesting hard for prizes.
What has to be questioned is why this year none of the teams were at the races

Grand slam efforts.

What was the excuse last season then?

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It doesn't leave two spots for the Welsh - they can contest all spots like anyone else.
What is does show is that in a good year the Welsh do compete.
They have three teams who are there or thereabouts, and often two teams are contesting hard for prizes.
What has to be questioned is why this year none of the teams were at the races

Grand slam efforts.

What was the excuse last season then?

Lions?

Brendan wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It doesn't leave two spots for the Welsh - they can contest all spots like anyone else.
What is does show is that in a good year the Welsh do compete.
They have three teams who are there or thereabouts, and often two teams are contesting hard for prizes.
What has to be questioned is why this year none of the teams were at the races

Grand slam efforts.

What was the excuse last season then?

Lions?

You think with all the focus on fitness from Gatland the Welsh players would be capable of playing club and test rugby and winning things. Guess they're fooked come the RWC