Israel Folau

yappysnap wrote:...Hate speech has no place in the world...

The US Supreme Court has ruled that hate speech is legally protected by the First Amendment. Certainly, laws elsewehere, including in Britain, take a very different stance but it's not a settled question around the world. Folau doesn't have to be banned from saying hateful things but Rugby Australia, as his employer, is free to impose commercial consequences.

I've deleted my thread yappy....
It's a big decision now for Chieka. Folou for me is the best full back in the world though almost neck and neck with Hogg. Makes the statement and action harder to do than if it were a journeyman. For me I'd drop him out of sight. I imagine there's a few gay people in and around the aus squad. Not to mention him bad mouthing the drunks.

Folou gone, sacked this morning from Warratahs and Australia.

Had to happen really, totally indefensible and lucky it did not happen last time, I am sure it would have had he not been their best player. He cannot say he was not warned.

Apparently he has gone to ground and not responding to attempts from Rugby Australia to contact him.

Will any other sports franchise touch him now?

Mourad has probably already been on the phone

The irony is that he invokes Jesus yet never heeded the words attributed to him in the gospels

"Happiness awaits you" nice thoughts from Gareth Thomas. I also feel a bit sorry for Folau as I have a few gay friends and they are all good people and its a shame for him he hasn't figured this out yet. I think he must have missed out on a few modules in the university of life but fingers crossed he will get there some day because he is a great player.

...I used to be a bit homophobic myself as a teen so understand how environment can play a part in forming your views.

Good strong response from them.

Rugby Fan wrote:

yappysnap wrote:...Hate speech has no place in the world...

The US Supreme Court has ruled that hate speech is legally protected by the First Amendment. Certainly, laws elsewehere, including in Britain, take a very different stance but it's not a settled question around the world. Folau doesn't have to be banned from saying hateful things but Rugby Australia, as his employer, is free to impose commercial consequences.

More my personal opinion tbh. And the American concept of free speech is clung to with a religious fanaticism itswlf which isnt sane or healthy.

Great response by the ARU

Does the final line of the ARU's statement leave the door open for an apology from Folau to prevent termination of the contract or is it a foregone conclusion now I wonder.

Not sympathetic to his POV but what’s worse: his persecution of gays because of unwise outdated religious beliefs, or society’s persecution of him (his job) because of the will of the people, although probably most people, unless they follow rugby, aren’t listening (he’s not a Kardashian you know) – until it’s splashed across the media of course. Not sure the sentence truly fits the crime. Maybe increasing fines til he shuts his mouth.

His opinion of alcohol on the other hand is wholly indefensible…let’s get him.

marty2086 wrote:Mourad has probably already been on the phone

The irony is that he invokes Jesus yet never heeded the words attributed to him in the gospels

The attitude of "old testament" Christians always seems at odds with Jesus teachings of love, forgiveness and tolerance.

Just had a look at the Instagram post - is five out of eight an acceptable score ?

How interesting. Someone above said that he 'was warned'. Well let's see .... in Brunei homosexuals were warned that tightened Sharia laws now meant that they risked death by having physical relationships. But it's all good in the dogma world...they were 'warned'. And yes, Folau has been warned that his religious views are abhorrent. Many practicing Muslims share his views btw. So maybe it's because he's Christian that it's easier/safer to find vocal fault with his personal religious philosophy?
In other news, a few weeks ago there was a memorial for the victims of the shooting in Christchurch. A man called Yusuf Islam sang at one of the events I seem to recall. This is the man once called Cat Stevens who once said Salman Rushdie should die for the sin of written words on the pages of a book that offended him and his religious beliefs. There he was, in New Zealand, ostensibly sharing the pain of the families of those presumably killed for their belief systems and religious philosophies. Any protests or bans for him? And I still sometimes hear his hippie warblings on radio stations, meaning he still gets an income from societies that have long since forgotten - apparently - his less than hippie-like comments of death to the author of written words.
Weird morally confused world we live in. Never forget that censorship is the greatest evil because basically it's the weapon of oppression - be that religious oppression or our particular brand of increasing secularised/social oppression. Where next? Will a sportsman lose his career because he says that he thinks man made Glodal Warming a big con by global 'green' industries looking for profit?

SecretFly wrote:...Folau has been warned that his religious views are abhorrent.  Many practicing Muslims share his views btw...

Folau was warned that expressing his views on social media while in the employ of Rugby Australia, was incompatible with the aims and ambitions of the Union. No-one told him he couldn't hold his views, only that he needed to understand his professional status was a constraint on what he could publicy say. Folau's decision to go ahead, shows he values his views over his contract with his employers.

There are many Muslim sportsmen. In Sonny Bill Williams, we have a high profile example in rugby. I have no doubt that, if Williams expressed the same views as Folau, he would face similar consequences.

Rugby Fan wrote:

SecretFly wrote:...Folau has been warned that his religious views are abhorrent.  Many practicing Muslims share his views btw...

Folau was warned that expressing his views on social media while in the employ of Rugby Australia, was incompatible with the aims and ambitions of the Union. No-one told him he couldn't hold his views, only that he needed to understand his professional status was a constraint on what he could publicy say. Folau's decision to go ahead, shows he values his views over his contract with his employers.

There are many Muslim sportsmen. In Sonny Bill Williams, we have a high profile example in rugby. I have no doubt that, if Williams expressed the same views as Folau, he would face similar consequences.

Exactly, he is perfectly entitled to his views, though an awful lot of people won't agree with them. As a high profile sportsman who represents his country you cannot publicly spout stuff like that, you are representing all Australians, of all faiths, genders and sexualities. The government here sacked a senior educational advisor yesterday, for coming out with similar guff. As a registered nurse, I could get struck off for bringing the profession into disrepute for publishing something like that.

He was already aware of that but it did not stop him doing it, unless he believed himself to be above any consequences!

As an ordinary Australian, he can now publish his views to his hearts content. Unfortunately he will still find most people disagree with them!

What a sad unenlightened fool.

Emotive subject.

I'm a great believer in we’re all humans and lets just treat each other with respect.

Folau has the right to his beliefs but saying people will go to hell for things his religious opinions don’t agree with is just hateful.

He should be sat down and asked how he’d feel if some football daft zealot said “because of the violence involved, all rugby players will go to hell” and see if he thinks this is stupid statement.

It’s difficult as you don’t want to curtail free speech, you end up driving it underground and you cant expose it for the bampottery that it is, but Falou needs to see he’s also seen as a spokesperson for his employers and needs to cut his cloth accordingly. If he didn’t have rugby, he wouldn’t have the same audience or exposure to spoke his rhetoric so that needs taken into consideration.

I will always defend free speech, and I will defend his right to say it even if don't agree with it.

The question is, is there a clause in his contract that mean any statements he makes as Israel Folou, the private citizen, fall into the same level of scrutiny as when he representing his employer.  

I always rated Folau as a really impressive player for the Wallabies, but after his first outburst and now this one, he is getting what he deserves.

Personally I'm happy he's out. He's an idiot and despite his abilities as a player he should probably go through some form of counselling/educational programme combined with community service in the LGBTQ community before he's allowed back to play.

I am going to try and nip this in the bud early on in this thread.

This is a thread about Israel Folu's social media comments and there repercussions.

It is not a thread about immigrations policies. This is a public rugby forum and it is a very thin and potentially dangerous line when we start going off on tangents like that.

Please can we stick to the subject.

I must be one of the few who thought it wasn’t that bad, but I’m not a believer of heaven and hell so perhaps that’s why. I’m also willing to bet that most of the ones crying also don’t believe in heaven and hell; fickle bunch. That said Izzy was warned about code of conduct to which he has an obligation as a professional rugby player, so here we are.

Australia in disarray and on the verge of sacking their best player, massive call. As they haven’t actually told him he’s sacked yet (poor show telling everyone else bar him) I think there’s a chance they’ll let him back in because like I said, he’s their best player.

I appreciate the irony in removing posts and editing posts in a thread that has a theme of free speech, but unfortunately as this is a public forum we're going to take a safety first attitude to certain topics and certain posts. Hope you all understand

Professional players do have obligations that they perhaps sometimes don't get, or maybe don't chose to get.

Rugby Australia are in the process of renegotiating their sponsorship with Quantas and they took a very dim view of what he said last time around, issuing a statement about it. You can bet that they will have made it very clear where they stand on this. Losing Folau may be bad enough, losing your main sponsor, when Rugby is cash strapped in Australia anyway could have had much worse repercussions.

There are parallels here with the two Ulster lads who ended up getting sacked by Ulster for there WhatsApp comments. I believe that Bank of Ireland made it very clear what their views on it were and could have pulled their sponsorship.

Like it or not, Professional sportsmen and women also have obligations to the companies that help to pay their wages, as well as to the clubs and countries that they represent.

No problem. Felt it needed challenging. Folou is annoyingly just going to go to France and earn a shed load.

No 7&1/2 wrote:No problem. Felt it needed challenging. Folou is annoyingly just going to go to France and earn a shed load.

I don't know about that, he is damaged goods now. Even if he was to go there, this will follow him along and will effect his market value. Look how hard it was for the two Irish lads to find another club. Homophobia does not sit well with any sporting organisation these days, when they are trying their utmost to be inclusive. It will stay with him even if he goes back to league or Aussie Rules.

This is going to be a cross for him to bear - if you will excuse the pun.

He s a class player. Much better than those 2. Some won't care about the pr should it benefit the team.

I think Mourad would still snap him up in a heartbeat.

Rugby League doesn't want him (at the moment). ARL Commission chairman has just said he "doesn't pass the inclusive test".

I was thinking more about SecretFly's earlier comment that many share Folau's views. There are a lot of very religious South African and Islander players, so it would be a surprise if some of them didn't agree with him. We know that a few of his Wallaby colleagues liked his Instagram post (although some apparently unliked it later).

And yet, I can't recall recall an issue like this before. There was an American football college coach a few years ago who got into hot water because he maintained homosexuality was not in God's plan. He ended up working at a Christian college, and recently became a hot topic again, because the University of Nebraska decided to give him another chance.

So far, though, in League and Union, we haven't really had this kind of blow-up.

There are many professions in which persistently ranting on social media about a specific group of people is grounds for termination. He received numerous warnings and ignored them so I'm really not surprised he's been sacked.

Dont think hes been formally sacked but he should be for being dumb alone. This does not one single person or entity any good.
Second time hes pulled this archaic stunt using his online largely followed profile.
Is totally at odds with Rugby Oz so has gotta go.
Just did Wales qualifying chances a big boost but who knows, once Folau fronts things could change.

Anyone else find the "we can't contact him despite trying" thing a bit bizzare? He's in the middle of the Super Rugby season and would have been preparing for the next game - surely not that hard to find him!

Yeah they text him but Folau didn’t text back.


ARU: “Izzy you alright mate? I think we need a chat about your recent Instagram post.”
Delivered

Izzy: (...)
Read 2019-04-10

Taylorman, he’s not sacked for being ‘dumb’, he’s sacked for being homophobic (among other things).

Mikey, I don’t think it matters if you’re religious or not. Falou is saying you should be punished (in the worst way possible, in his view) for being gay. Therefore he sees it as being very wrong. Completely against the ethos of inclusivity in rugby, sport and societ as a whole. One would hope Aus rugby (international and club)is doing this because of it being right and not just sponsors.

His comments will make his team mates, supporters and rugby fans uncomfortable at best, given that some of them will be gay or have gay friends or, like most of us, not see it as a reason to treat anyone differently.

By the way, it’s good to hear Guns admit that he was a homophobe when he was younger, but has realised it was wrong. People are becoming more enlightened and that’s why in rugby (which is actually more progressive in many ways) it’s disappointing now with Faloau’s comments.

It would be very interesting for Falou to sit down with Nigel Owens and Gareth Thomas and discuss. Maybe part of his ‘redemption’ if he wants back in the union family?

Saying certain people are going to Hell is only offensive if you believe in Hell.  He listed off alot of different groups, some of us may be members of more than one of those groups.  If you don't believe in Hell what's the problem.  If you believe in Hell maybe you should read a bit more about who the religious book you believe in says is going there.  Today we live in a world of hypocrites where we hold two opposing view in our head and can't accept that they are in conflict with each other.  I don't care what you believe just make sure you know what you believe and don't lie to yourself.  We haven't heard a single story of any person who Folau has treated differently because they are part of one of the groups he mentions.  All this fakeness of I have a badge supporting X so I am not Y, show me how much you love me is so annoying.

Also saying he can't say things he believes is stupid.  I would much rather people say to me what they think or feel rather than this fake PC to your face yet don't believe what they say.  At what point do we need to Google what we are going to say to make sure it is approved to say.

France is alot less PC than Australia and many there would hold simillar views in public (unlike in Australia).  In the back of my mind I wonder if he got an unbelievable offer from a French club maybe Toulon or Racing so he did an act that he knew would terminate his contract.  What is the value of a player like Folau who will now have a longer off season before playing during the WC and rip things up.

Australia not having him in the 15 shirt will be less worrying WC time. If they take him back they have no morals and act on wims.  If they are sad to see him go they don't believe in what they say and are only doing it to earn points with the Public.

The thought police are great until they disagree with you.  They don't care if you were drunk young our stupid if you said something wrong in your life you deserve to be publicly shamed forever.

I grew up as a religious minority of non national parents who was in awkward situations continously from people who said what they were thinking. I was taught to judge people by actions not words, and it hasn't let me down.  If people can't handle that other people don't see the world like them then society is failing and we better get ready for conflict.

Being religious or homosexual shouldn't matter, you should still find all forms of homophobia abhorrent. Just like you wouldn't need to be from a particular racial group to find racism offensive, people should have compassion and empathy for others, not hate.

It's interesting as well that some on here and on social media have seen this as a chance to create us and them issues that aren't a part of this discussion, making claims that it wouldn't happen if he was Muslim etc interesting how other bias come out in these situations.

Brendan, thinking that people should be ‘sent to hell’ for homosexuality isn’t just a religious ‘excuse’. Whether you believe in hell on not, he’s making a value judgement. He’s saying it’s wrong and punishment for it is right. It’s an awful statement.

Brendan wrote:Saying certain people are going to Hell is only offensive if you believe in Hell.  He listed off alot of different groups, some of us may be members of more than one of those groups.  If you don't believe in Hell what's the problem.  If you believe in Hell maybe you should read a bit more about who the religious book you believe in says is going there.  Today we live in a world of hypocrites where we hold two opposing view in our head and can't accept that they are in conflict with each other.  I don't care what you believe just make sure you know what you believe and don't lie to yourself.  We haven't heard a single story of any person who Folau has treated differently because they are part of one of the groups he mentions.  All this fakeness of I have a badge supporting X so I am not Y, show me how much you love me is so annoying.

Also saying he can't say things he believes is stupid.  I would much rather people say to me what they think or feel rather than this fake PC to your face yet don't believe what they say.  At what point do we need to Google what we are going to say to make sure it is approved to say.

France is alot less PC than Australia and many there would hold simillar views in public (unlike in Australia).  In the back of my mind I wonder if he got an unbelievable offer from a French club maybe Toulon or Racing so he did an act that he knew would terminate his contract.  What is the value of a player like Foley who will now have a longer off season before playing during the WC and rip things up.

Australia not having him in the 15 shirt will be less worrying WC time. If they take him back they have no morals and act on wims.  If they are sad to see him go they don't believe in what they say and are only doing it to earn points with the Public.

The thought police are great until they disagree with you.  They don't care if you were drunk young our stupid if you said something wrong in your life you deserve to be publicly shamed forever.

I grew up as a religious minority of non national parents who was in awkward situations continously from people who said what they were thinking. I was taught to judge people by actions not words, and it hasn't let me down.  If people can't handle that other people don't see the world like them then society is failing and we better get ready for conflict.

That's an incredibly simplistic view from someone in a position of privilege.

It's not that homosexual people are suddenly going to be worried about going to hell, no one is freaking out about what happens after death suddenly. It's that someone with a social media reach of tens of thousands has decided to publicly say that this particular group are wrong and not just that they're wrong, but they should be actively punished for their life choices, that punishment if the correct thing for them and they deserve it. Now imagine how many young impressionable people he's hitting with those beliefs, ones with homosexual friends or colleagues, imagine how many homosexual people are out there worried about coming out that'll see this and be effected. Yes he can have views, but it's not ok to preach hate on a public forum as a celebrity and he should expect to be censored for it.

He also puts in people who have sex outside of marriage in there too. Were they also offended by the statement. If not why not. Same can be true of every other group he mentions. To many kids are growing up being told by society that words are violence done to you. It's why so many struggle to overcome words said to them

Why do the media print the tweet in their reports if they find it offensive, surely they are spreading hate by doing it. Today we love to take offence rather than ignore people we don't want to listen to.

Double post can’t delete!

Yappy has said it well, but just to pick up on another of Brendan’s points. I’m all for free speech too. I’m glad (but saddened) that Falou has spoken his true feelings. It’s good to know the Meat trombone soloist by their own words.

yappysnap wrote:

Brendan wrote:Saying certain people are going to Hell is only offensive if you believe in Hell.  He listed off alot of different groups, some of us may be members of more than one of those groups.  If you don't believe in Hell what's the problem.  If you believe in Hell maybe you should read a bit more about who the religious book you believe in says is going there.  Today we live in a world of hypocrites where we hold two opposing view in our head and can't accept that they are in conflict with each other.  I don't care what you believe just make sure you know what you believe and don't lie to yourself.  We haven't heard a single story of any person who Folau has treated differently because they are part of one of the groups he mentions.  All this fakeness of I have a badge supporting X so I am not Y, show me how much you love me is so annoying.

Also saying he can't say things he believes is stupid.  I would much rather people say to me what they think or feel rather than this fake PC to your face yet don't believe what they say.  At what point do we need to Google what we are going to say to make sure it is approved to say.

France is alot less PC than Australia and many there would hold simillar views in public (unlike in Australia).  In the back of my mind I wonder if he got an unbelievable offer from a French club maybe Toulon or Racing so he did an act that he knew would terminate his contract.  What is the value of a player like Foley who will now have a longer off season before playing during the WC and rip things up.

Australia not having him in the 15 shirt will be less worrying WC time. If they take him back they have no morals and act on wims.  If they are sad to see him go they don't believe in what they say and are only doing it to earn points with the Public.

The thought police are great until they disagree with you.  They don't care if you were drunk young our stupid if you said something wrong in your life you deserve to be publicly shamed forever.

I grew up as a religious minority of non national parents who was in awkward situations continously from people who said what they were thinking. I was taught to judge people by actions not words, and it hasn't let me down.  If people can't handle that other people don't see the world like them then society is failing and we better get ready for conflict.

That's an incredibly simplistic view from someone in a position of privilege.

It's not that homosexual people are suddenly going to be worried about going to hell,  no one is freaking out about what happens after death suddenly. It's that someone with a social media reach of tens of thousands has decided to publicly say that this particular group are wrong and not just that they're wrong, but they should be actively punished for their life choices, that punishment if the correct thing for them and they deserve it. Now imagine how many young impressionable people he's hitting with those beliefs, ones with homosexual friends or colleagues, imagine how many homosexual people are out there worried about coming out that'll see this and be effected. Yes he can have views, but it's not ok to preach hate on a public forum as a celebrity and he should expect to be censored for it.

How am I in a position of privilege? I have been told I am going to Hell many times because i wasn't Catholic but I guess I wouldn't understand what it is like to be told that who I am is going to  get me to Hell because I am offense to them.

So, just because Brendan was told he was going to hell because of his religious persuasion it’s ok to be homophobic?

No, it’s not.

Sorry if you had problems with religious tensions growing up (that’s not right either).

I wish they'd let him play one more game, with Nigel Owens as ref.

Cyril wrote:So, just because Brendan was told he was going to hell because of his religious persuasion it’s ok to be homophobic?

No, it’s not.

Sorry if you had problems with religious tensions growing up (that’s not right either).

It wasn't a problem because I understood words and actions. It's what they believed and I believed something else. Many who believed I was going to Hell treated me like everyone else which was fine. People who said they were fine but treated me different were the problem.

Being Homophobic is singling people out and treating them differently. Actions speak loader than words but most people speak words and do no actions. If you don't do actions then you don't believe your words. Just because people say they aren't homophobic doesn't mean they are not, what we do determines that. If we treat people the same in our day to day lives regardless of gender, ethnic etc then are we an phobic/ist.

Brendan wrote:...Also saying he can't say things he believes is stupid....

No-one has said that. He is free to say whatever he wants but not as an employee of Rugby Australia.

There are plenty of occasions in all walks of life when you know that personal beliefs and interests may be in conflict with the image your employer wants to promote. It's not illegal to livestream yourself on a drinking binge but you probably won't hold onto a job as a childrens TV presenter if you do. Write a blog post promoting the use of condoms for safe sex, and you might find you lose a contract with a Catholic organization. Only yesterday, Shila Iqbal found that using the "n" world in some offensive - but legal - tweets a few years ago means she lost her job on Emmerdale.

Folau isn't the first to lose a contract over completely legal behaviour but no one should feel sorry for him, since he entered into the contract freely, knowing it explicity stipulated that expressing himself on social meda as he did, would be a breach.

If you want to argue that employers should not be able to use your own actions as reasons to not hire you, or fire you, then that's  a separate argument. However, those kinds of conditions, both formal and informal, have been part and parcel of the employment scene long before social media existed.

Perhaps Folau believes the restrictions on his social media use are unfair, and plans to take court action to challenge them. Another possibility is that he just feels so strongly about these matters, he believes it is morally wrong not to speak out. I saw an article noting that Folau has started sermonizing at his church, which suggests a change in how he sees his religious responsibilities.

Brendan, tweeting that kind of shoite (generically or one-to-one is the same thing). Surely I now consider him a homophonic Muppet even though he hasn’t said it to my friend’s face?

Cyril wrote:Taylorman, he’s not sacked for being ‘dumb’, he’s sacked for being homophobic (among other things).

Ahh no, he is not. You can be homophobic (among other things) without being sacked, simply by not pasting your thoughts all over Social media.

He was 'dumb' to do that, homophobic or not.