About v2Israel Folau
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
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Israel Folau
by yappysnap Thu 11 Apr 2019, 7:32 am
First topic message reminder :
You may or may not be aware of his latest Instagram outburst.
Personally I find views like his appalling and no matter what he may believe I do not think he should be allowed to say it in a public space like on social media. Hate speech has no place in the world, certainly not in sports and recreational settings and definitely not from role models to the future generations.
Folau should be dropped by the Wallabies and his SR side, and although I wouldn't believe any apology that came from him he should be told why his words are unacceptable.
If you haven't seen it then then here it is https://www.instagram.com/p/BwEWt2uHcLI/?hl=en
And amongst many responses here is what Gareth Thomas had to say:
You may or may not be aware of his latest Instagram outburst.
Personally I find views like his appalling and no matter what he may believe I do not think he should be allowed to say it in a public space like on social media. Hate speech has no place in the world, certainly not in sports and recreational settings and definitely not from role models to the future generations.
Folau should be dropped by the Wallabies and his SR side, and although I wouldn't believe any apology that came from him he should be told why his words are unacceptable.
If you haven't seen it then then here it is https://www.instagram.com/p/BwEWt2uHcLI/?hl=en
And amongst many responses here is what Gareth Thomas had to say:
Gareth Thomas @gareththomas14
I don’t write this with hate or anger after Israel Folau’s comments.I write with sympathy. To everyone who reads it, don’t be influenced by his words. Be the better person and be YOU. Whoever YOU is..Hell doesn’t await YOU.Happiness awaits YOU.
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Re: Israel Folau
by Collapse2005 Tue 16 Apr 2019, 7:07 pm
No 7&1/2 wrote:Lot of posts since I've last looked and this and a few directed at me so I'll try my best to cover any questions.
When did you dec9de on your sexuality fishpaste? Have you done research or just have sex with various people and sexes before deciding which you'd prefer? Folou is scum I'm fine with expressing that. And indeed fine with any consequences of expressing it!
Which questions have I ignored LD and I'll answer them.
Don't think it's fair to name them collapse.
I know was just messing
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Re: Israel Folau
by No name Bertie Tue 16 Apr 2019, 7:46 pm
Don't satanists believe going to hell should be treated as a reward - hence the statement X should go to hell should be seen as a positive rather than a negative.
Some people say that going to heaven would be too boring - hell is much more fun. And let us not underestimate the benefits that one can obtain from the practices of sadomasochism. Some people would pay good money for that.
The condemnation of Israel Folau assumes that hell is a real place and it is a bad place - to believe that you have to adopt either a traditional Christian belief or an Islamic belief. Most people don't take religion seriously - so why are they taking it seriously in the case of Israel Folau?
Furthermore Israel Folau has a get out argument - he could blame Western Colonialism for destroying his ancestral cultural beliefs and replacing it with a western christian belief. He could argue he and his parents were indoctrinated with this alien belief system and it is too late for him to re-wire his now hard-wired adult brain. So he should make a counter-claim as being a victim of Western Imperialism and hegemony.
Some people say that going to heaven would be too boring - hell is much more fun. And let us not underestimate the benefits that one can obtain from the practices of sadomasochism. Some people would pay good money for that.
The condemnation of Israel Folau assumes that hell is a real place and it is a bad place - to believe that you have to adopt either a traditional Christian belief or an Islamic belief. Most people don't take religion seriously - so why are they taking it seriously in the case of Israel Folau?
Furthermore Israel Folau has a get out argument - he could blame Western Colonialism for destroying his ancestral cultural beliefs and replacing it with a western christian belief. He could argue he and his parents were indoctrinated with this alien belief system and it is too late for him to re-wire his now hard-wired adult brain. So he should make a counter-claim as being a victim of Western Imperialism and hegemony.
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Re: Israel Folau
by Mr Fishpaste Tue 16 Apr 2019, 8:25 pm
No 7&1/2 wrote:
When did you dec9de on your sexuality fishpaste?
Round about the same time that I decided I was an omnivore!
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Re: Israel Folau
by No name Bertie Tue 16 Apr 2019, 8:56 pm
I just want to say I upticked your comment - although I didn't agree with everything, it contained many helpful elements to better understand the situation. I agree with sexuality and love being different - but would say sexuality "is choice and not a choice" - in that sexual attraction is fairly primordial and hence is likely to contain 'non-choice' innateness elements to it - and this is supported by self-reporting studies. In support of choice aspects is what occurs in "prison environments". So I would say taken together there are choice and non choice elements to sexuality.miaow wrote:One key point that is lost in all of this - as LD is alluding to - is the way in which the debate is framed. It focuses solely on the 'homosexual' mention in Folau's post, and that - above all else - is the damning part. As someone said yesterday, you have the BBC misquoting/exacerbating that one key element to fit a narrative of gay-bashing, and of course it is the part that every media outlet leads with. Even if - as Fly says - the abstract notion of Hell isn't actually believed in by the vast majority of people - gay or straight or otherwise - who are rounding the wagons on Folau. Nor, indeed, is their focus and care on protecting the relatively small, but still significant, number of Christians who are homosexual or not straight, and who must struggle viciously when confronted with the notions Folau raises.
...
...
...
Because sexuality is something you choose, in a way. Sexuality is not only fluid, but it's also ...
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...
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Re: Israel Folau
by Pie Tue 16 Apr 2019, 10:49 pm
mikey_dragon wrote:Folau? He expressed a point of view, saying that in his fairy tale world certain groups of people will go to a dark place in the afterlife... and now he's being hounded out for targeting the one particular group. If he was advocating stoning them then you all would have a point. Why is it appropriate for you call him scum just because he doesn't agree with you? Modern day liberalism folks.No 7&1/2 wrote:Lot of posts since I've last looked and this and a few directed at me so I'll try my best to cover any questions.
When did you dec9de on your sexuality fishpaste? Have you done research or just have sex with various people and sexes before deciding which you'd prefer? Folou is scum I'm fine with expressing that. And indeed fine with any consequences of expressing it!
Which questions have I ignored LD and I'll answer them.
Don't think it's fair to name them collapse.
For the record; I'm a drunk, fornicator, adulterer, atheist. I'm not the least bit offended - don't all go crying on my behalf now...
have you been to hell? No so you dont really know just how bad it is. Suggesting groups of people -including most rugby players and fans - will go there is pretty close to the bone if you ask me
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Re: Israel Folau
by Guest Wed 17 Apr 2019, 12:52 am
Pie wrote:have you been to hell? No so you dont really know just how bad it is.
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Re: Israel Folau
by mikey_dragon Wed 17 Apr 2019, 3:34 am
Nobody has been to hell. Courtney Lawes said it well. His point of view is similar to mine - I posted my view on the first page and still had the ‘perennially offended’ crying about it one way or another.
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Re: Israel Folau
by Pie Wed 17 Apr 2019, 5:02 am
there is NO WAY Big Court wrote that himself. He plagiarized it from some 6th former's essay on Inclusivity in the 21st Century. Discuss. OR his mam wrote it.
He's definitely going to hell for that!
He's definitely going to hell for that!
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Re: Israel Folau
by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Apr 2019, 6:40 am
Folau has asked for a hearing anyway. Not sure sure what he's going to say that could possibly change minds.
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Re: Israel Folau
by LordDowlais Wed 17 Apr 2019, 7:45 am
No 7&1/2 wrote:Folau has asked for a hearing anyway. Not sure sure what he's going to say that could possibly change minds.
He could tell them he wasn't preaching hate.
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Re: Israel Folau
by yappysnap Wed 17 Apr 2019, 7:46 am
No 7&1/2 wrote:Folau has asked for a hearing anyway. Not sure sure what he's going to say that could possibly change minds.
I like money more then religion?
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Re: Israel Folau
by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Apr 2019, 7:56 am
Doubtful that would work to mitigate anything LD.
Would he really attempt a climb down now yappy. Pretty much only thing I can think of is him standing up and saying I made a mistake my comments were dumb and offensive.hes surely not going to.
Would he really attempt a climb down now yappy. Pretty much only thing I can think of is him standing up and saying I made a mistake my comments were dumb and offensive.hes surely not going to.
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Re: Israel Folau
by Pete330v2 Wed 17 Apr 2019, 9:24 am
No 7&1/2 wrote:Doubtful that would work to mitigate anything LD.
Would he really attempt a climb down now yappy. Pretty much only thing I can think of is him standing up and saying I made a mistake my comments were dumb and offensive.hes surely not going to.
I'd say he's definitely not going to, he believes in it strongly enough for it to end is career. He also believes that he must preach this belief, share it with those who are heading to eternal damnation, he believes he MUST save the sinners. It's been drummed into his head from an early age I dare say, much like how all religion does. Get them while they're young and impressionable, that age when santa and the tooth fairy are accepted as reality without question. Drum it in there and then, before they catch themselves on, cork it in there with a healthy dose of fear. The promise of the eternal fire will do that. In short, is Folau the guilty party or is it his particular of Christianity at fault.
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Re: Israel Folau
by aucklandlaurie Wed 17 Apr 2019, 9:27 am
No 7&1/2 wrote:Folau has asked for a hearing anyway. Not sure sure what he's going to say that could possibly change minds.
My phone was stolen last week....
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Re: Israel Folau
by LordDowlais Wed 17 Apr 2019, 9:37 am
Why should you be punished for what you believe ?
What has he actually done to offend ? He is very extreme in his beliefs, but he has not wished or asked for any harm on anyone.
The world today has gone bonkers. Too many people who like to take offence, and then jump on the bandwagon of oppression.
What has he actually done to offend ? He is very extreme in his beliefs, but he has not wished or asked for any harm on anyone.
The world today has gone bonkers. Too many people who like to take offence, and then jump on the bandwagon of oppression.
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Re: Israel Folau
by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Apr 2019, 9:44 am
'Justice has been served'. ' what he did was wrong
You said earlier I'd ignored your question LD, sorry of I missed it but happy to answer if you point out which one.
You said earlier I'd ignored your question LD, sorry of I missed it but happy to answer if you point out which one.
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Re: Israel Folau
by the-goon Wed 17 Apr 2019, 10:59 am
I think calling someone "scum" is incredibly dehumanising and offensive. I demand the mods take action, how can this type of hate speech which leads to violence be left on here. I am outraged.
Hitler dehumanised the Jews and look what happened, that's all I'm saying.
Hitler dehumanised the Jews and look what happened, that's all I'm saying.
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Re: Israel Folau
by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Apr 2019, 11:02 am
Complain away. There's always limits to free speech.
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Re: Israel Folau
by Pete330v2 Wed 17 Apr 2019, 11:31 am
"Why should you be punished for what you believe ?"
When it does nobody any harm you shouldn't LD but we're now in a society where you're allowed any opinion as long as it falls in line with the prescribed socially acceptable set of rules. Opinions on social media go worldwide now and there's always a hashtag group that'll be offended enough for action to be taken. In this case it's the worldwide gay community (or more likely the perpetually offended screaming out on behalf of the worldwide gay community) but I've not heard so much as a whisper from the drunks or the atheists. Tis madness!!!!
When it does nobody any harm you shouldn't LD but we're now in a society where you're allowed any opinion as long as it falls in line with the prescribed socially acceptable set of rules. Opinions on social media go worldwide now and there's always a hashtag group that'll be offended enough for action to be taken. In this case it's the worldwide gay community (or more likely the perpetually offended screaming out on behalf of the worldwide gay community) but I've not heard so much as a whisper from the drunks or the atheists. Tis madness!!!!
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Re: Israel Folau
by Collapse2005 Wed 17 Apr 2019, 11:32 am
Pete330v2 wrote:No 7&1/2 wrote:Doubtful that would work to mitigate anything LD.
Would he really attempt a climb down now yappy. Pretty much only thing I can think of is him standing up and saying I made a mistake my comments were dumb and offensive.hes surely not going to.
I'd say he's definitely not going to, he believes in it strongly enough for it to end is career. He also believes that he must preach this belief, share it with those who are heading to eternal damnation, he believes he MUST save the sinners. It's been drummed into his head from an early age I dare say, much like how all religion does. Get them while they're young and impressionable, that age when santa and the tooth fairy are accepted as reality without question. Drum it in there and then, before they catch themselves on, cork it in there with a healthy dose of fear. The promise of the eternal fire will do that. In short, is Folau the guilty party or is it his particular of Christianity at fault.
I think I read somewhere that he only recently converted to his current religion in the last 10 years, he was a mormon beforehand. Is that not right?
Anyway in my view some of the more conservative forms of Protestantism are responsible for some of the more bigoted and prejudiced communities around the world. Apartheid in SA, Racism in the southern states in the US and sectarianism in Northern Ireland all have its links to some form of Protestantism so Im not particularly surprised Folau has turned into a total clown but I still wouldnt be in favour of taking his job away from him.
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Re: Israel Folau
by LordDowlais Wed 17 Apr 2019, 12:10 pm
No 7&1/2 wrote:'Justice has been served'. ' what he did was wrong
You said earlier I'd ignored your question LD, sorry of I missed it but happy to answer if you point out which one.
One of them was, if you take away the homosexuality off that list, would you still be outraged ?
Another was, if you do not believe in Hell, then why does what he said offend you ?
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Re: Israel Folau
by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Apr 2019, 12:22 pm
Not really as homosexuality is not a choice. The others are. I said that but you may not have seen.
I think what he said promotes hate and especially in his position he shouldn't be saying it.
I think what he said promotes hate and especially in his position he shouldn't be saying it.
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Re: Israel Folau
by LordDowlais Wed 17 Apr 2019, 12:24 pm
No 7&1/2 wrote:Not really as homosexuality is not a choice. The others are. I said that but you may not have seen.
I think what he said promotes hate and especially in his position he shouldn't be saying it.
Thats not an answer to any of the questions I asked you.
Also, you will have to explain to me, why what he has said promotes hate.
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Re: Israel Folau
by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Apr 2019, 12:31 pm
Preaching that simply being born put a you in hell is pretty hateful. He's preaching a huge group of people are damned without anything they can do. It's also pretty niche as it's not a blanket view of Christianity. He's doing it simply pass on hate.
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Re: Israel Folau
by Noble-Surfer Wed 17 Apr 2019, 12:33 pm
\"Pete330v2" wrote: wrote:\"No 7&1/2" wrote: wrote:
Doubtful that would work to mitigate anything LD.
Would he really attempt a climb down now yappy. Pretty much only thing I can think of is him standing up and saying I made a mistake my comments were dumb and offensive.hes surely not going to.
I'd say he's definitely not going to, he believes in it strongly enough for it to end is career. He also believes that he must preach this belief, share it with those who are heading to eternal damnation, he believes he MUST save the sinners. It's been drummed into his head from an early age I dare say, much like how all religion does. Get them while they're young and impressionable, that age when santa and the tooth fairy are accepted as reality without question. Drum it in there and then, before they catch themselves on, cork it in there with a healthy dose of fear. The promise of the eternal fire will do that. In short, is Folau the guilty party or is it his particular of Christianity at fault.
Maybe semantics here, but that is directly opposed to what he was saying. The Bible teaches that we cannot save ourselves, only God can save us- Folau even said that he himself was under that same condemnation, but had been saved by the grace of God.
Regardless of whether anyone agrees with Folau's beliefs, the issue here (at least, to my understanding) is that Folau has been sacked for posting a belief which the ARU as an organisation don't subscribe to, on a personal social media account. He did not post it as an employee of the ARU, but as an individual. He also did not say that he thought that anyone should go to Hell- merely stated what the Bible teaches about anyone who falls short of God's standards (which is everyone- himself included, as he said). He also stated that the Bible teaches that there is a way to avoid this- through repentance & trusting in Jesus Christ.
The moment an organisation/ governing body can dictate what people can or can't say for themselves (regardless of whether they say it privately or publicly), we are in real danger as a society.
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Re: Israel Folau
by Pete330v2 Wed 17 Apr 2019, 12:41 pm
No 7&1/2 wrote:Not really as homosexuality is not a choice. The others are. I said that but you may not have seen.
I think what he said promotes hate and especially in his position he shouldn't be saying it.
drunks - If by that the list means alcoholics then that's hardly a choice, no addict ever chooses to become an addict be it alcohol, herion or pregabalin.
homosexuals - Absolutely without any doubt, not a choice any more than your natural hair colour or how many toes you have. It's how you're born, hardly a sin.
adulterers - Absolutely without any doubt a choice obviously. Unless of course you're Tiger Woods in which case it's OK, not your fault, you had a bad back.
liars - Obviously a choice but something everyone has done from little white ones to huge big fat lies, like the ones Tiger Woods tells
fornicators - A choice once again but not many will escape this one......I'll not mention Tiger again....damn it, just did.
thieves - Obviously, once again a choice but does stealing an apple get you the same as stealing a pensioner's savings?
atheists - Not a choice either, you don't choose to believe or not, you just do. Anyway as one myself I'm hardly offended.
idolaters - Is this just believing in and praising false gods? If so then who's god is the real one?
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Re: Israel Folau
by LordDowlais Wed 17 Apr 2019, 12:42 pm
No 7&1/2 wrote:Preaching that simply being born put a you in hell is pretty hateful. He's preaching a huge group of people are damned without anything they can do. It's also pretty niche as it's not a blanket view of Christianity. He's doing it simply pass on hate.
But your wrong. He is saying what he believes to be true. When we all know it is not. He honestly believes that people will go to Hell if they do not repent, that's not damning anyone, not once has he said he hates them or that they are damned, he is actually telling them there is still time to turn yourself around, that is not hate, in fact, in his warped mind he is offering salvation, he wants to save these people, that does not sound like hate to me. He is not even saying that it's his choice, he thinks it's the Lords choice. He is being very arrogant in his beliefs and that's has guilty as he gets for me.
It should not offend you anyway, as you have said you do not believe in Hell. So I will ask again, if you do not believe in Hell, then why are you offended ?
Again, this is a genuine question.
Last edited by LordDowlais on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammar mistake)
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Re: Israel Folau
by Rugby Fan Wed 17 Apr 2019, 1:21 pm
It is routine for employees to face professional consequences for posts on individual social media accounts. A google search will lead you to dozens of cases of people being sacked for breaching social media guidelines.Noble-Surfer wrote:...Folau has been sacked for posting a belief which the ARU as an organisation don't subscribe to, on a personal social media account. He did not post it as an employee of the ARU, but as an individual...
In rugby, Joe Marler and Nathan Hughes are recent examples of players who were disciplined for postings. Billy Vunipola is now another on that list.
There was some speculation in the Australian press that any additional clauses added to Folau's contract may breach an agreement with the Players' Association, which might be an argument his lawyers want to make. Against that, It has also been argued that he breached existing guidelines anyway, so it would be a moot point. We don't know his contract details, so we have no insight currently.
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Re: Israel Folau
by Pete330v2 Wed 17 Apr 2019, 1:26 pm
Rugby Fan wrote:It is routine for employees to face professional consequences for posts on individual social media accounts. A google search will lead you to dozens of cases of people being sacked for breaching social media guidelines.Noble-Surfer wrote:...Folau has been sacked for posting a belief which the ARU as an organisation don't subscribe to, on a personal social media account. He did not post it as an employee of the ARU, but as an individual...
In rugby, Joe Marler and Nathan Hughes are recent examples of players who were disciplined for postings. Billy Vunipola is now another on that list.
There was some speculation in the Australian press that any additional clauses added to Folau's contract may breach an agreement with the Players' Association, which might be an argument his lawyers want to make. Against that, It has also been argued that he breached existing guidelines anyway, so it would be a moot point. We don't know his contract details, so we have no insight currently.
It's an NHS policy and I know of one person who was suspended after stupidly posting fairly extreme political views in relation to an NHS post.
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Re: Israel Folau
by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Apr 2019, 1:35 pm
From that point of view LD I've known really racist guys who truly believed black people had sub intelligence. They'd express that too. I still.consider it hateful despite it being a truly held belief. But there we go.
Again I'm not really offended by his words I think he's a bit thick, gullible and general scum.
Again I'm not really offended by his words I think he's a bit thick, gullible and general scum.
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Re: Israel Folau
by LordDowlais Wed 17 Apr 2019, 1:49 pm
No 7&1/2 wrote:Again I'm not really offended by his words I think he's a bit thick, gullible and general scum.
That sounds quite offensive to me, and that sounds as though you are offended. I really do not think you mean to call him thick or scum, when you resort to that, you are no better than the people/person you are attacking.
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Re: Israel Folau
by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Apr 2019, 1:56 pm
Oh. I'm fine with it to honest. Truly held belief.
He thinks a bat is a bird for goodness sake!
He thinks a bat is a bird for goodness sake!
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Re: Israel Folau
by Pete330v2 Wed 17 Apr 2019, 2:06 pm
"Again I'm not really offended by his words I think he's a bit thick, gullible and general scum."
So he's thick and gullible because he has his religious beliefs? I get where you're coming from but that's always been the bad atheist's view. His intelligence hasn't anything to do with is beliefs, I know many very intelligent people who believe in a deity. Gullible is also a little extreme, indoctrination trumps gullibility every time. The general scum part is the bit that may be your opinion but is entirely wrong. Scum? Really?
So he's thick and gullible because he has his religious beliefs? I get where you're coming from but that's always been the bad atheist's view. His intelligence hasn't anything to do with is beliefs, I know many very intelligent people who believe in a deity. Gullible is also a little extreme, indoctrination trumps gullibility every time. The general scum part is the bit that may be your opinion but is entirely wrong. Scum? Really?
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Re: Israel Folau
by Guest Wed 17 Apr 2019, 2:12 pm
Pete330v2 wrote:drunks - If by that the list means alcoholics then that's hardly a choice, no addict ever chooses to become an addict be it alcohol, herion or pregabalin.
Definitely wrong. People exhibit agency and choice in first becoming addicts, maintaining an addiction, and breaking it, too. They may not consciously 'choose' the negative aspects of it - but it's fundamentally false to say there's no choice in addiction. It takes a monumental effort to break an addiction, a choice that comes from an awareness how and why it starts, what it means to avoid addiction (good and bad), and acceptance to persist for the good of yourself and/or those you love. Sadly, it's a lot, lot harder to persist with that choice than the original choice to use whatever the addict ultimately chooses to use. I understand there's no malice intended here on your part, but it's wrong.
Pete330v2 wrote:homosexuals - Absolutely without any doubt, not a choice any more than your natural hair colour or how many toes you have. It's how you're born, hardly a sin.
Again, wrong in terms of choice. Sexuality is much more than just genetic - but, much like hair and toes, they are affected by how you live. Hair can grey, bald, change colour, fall out from stress etc. Toes can break, be damaged, cut off, or of course suffer from a host of internal consequences of the circulatory system etc. Sexuality is prone to all those things - abuse and assault changes sexuality immesurably. But there's also positive change, for sure: perhaps more along the lines of tattooing your toes, say, or braiding/styling your hair. Or if you live healthilty, they'll be strong internally, not fall prey to damage etc. Eventually those external and internal changes become 'you' - just like who you sleep with/fall in love with changes your sexuality as well. Experience amends and moulds sexuality: no-one has the same sexuality at the age of 10 as they do the age of 16 as they go the age of 36 as they do the age of 66 etc. Not a 'sin', either, for sure - but there are some forms of sexuality that are dreadful, for sure, without wanting to dwell on those.
Pete330v2 wrote:atheists - Not a choice either, you don't choose to believe or not, you just do. Anyway as one myself I'm hardly offended.
Weird. Think that's quite clearly a very conscious, cerebral choice. Don't really understand 'you just do'.
Pete330v2 wrote:idolaters - Is this just believing in and praising false gods? If so then who's god is the real one?
AWJ
Last edited by miaow on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 2:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Israel Folau
by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Apr 2019, 2:15 pm
Just my.opiniom on the scum bit Pete. I'm assuming folau believes a bat is a bird as his book tells him.so. if s9 it ticks the thick bit for me. If he doesn't has picking and choosing what to believe hence he just wants to think homosexuals will go to hell and around we go again. It is a complete aside to the point he breached his contract/agreement but I've gone down answering questions route.
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Re: Israel Folau
by RiscaGame Wed 17 Apr 2019, 2:20 pm
miaow wrote:Pete330v2 wrote:idolaters - Is this just believing in and praising false gods? If so then who's god is the real one?
AWJ
Finally, some sense on this thread.
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Re: Israel Folau
by eirebilly Wed 17 Apr 2019, 2:37 pm
As I said previously, I do not agree with what he posted but in my opinion he has every right to post and believe what he wants to. On a daily basis, we all do and say things that may offend others so should we all lose our jobs because of that? If you take offence to a poster on here, you can place them on ignore so why cant these people just ignore what he writes if they find it so offensive? He didn't insight any hate, he just posted what he feels will happen such people. In his opinion, I will be going to hell but that's ok because I have a different view and ultimately its what I believe that drives me on, not what others think or say.
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Re: Israel Folau
by LordDowlais Wed 17 Apr 2019, 2:41 pm
eirebilly wrote:As I said previously, I do not agree with what he posted but in my opinion he has every right to post and believe what he wants to. On a daily basis, we all do and say things that may offend others so should we all lose our jobs because of that? If you take offence to a poster on here, you can place them on ignore so why cant these people just ignore what he writes if they find it so offensive? He didn't insight any hate, he just posted what he feels will happen such people. In his opinion, I will be going to hell but that's ok because I have a different view and ultimately its what I believe that drives me on, not what others think or say.
Amen to that.
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Re: Israel Folau
by No 7&1/2 Wed 17 Apr 2019, 2:47 pm
So you've changed your mind then LD. What swayed you?
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Re: Israel Folau
by Guest Wed 17 Apr 2019, 2:49 pm
eirebilly wrote:As I said previously, I do not agree with what he posted but in my opinion he has every right to post and believe what he wants to. On a daily basis, we all do and say things that may offend others so should we all lose our jobs because of that?
There's a wonderful line in The Thick of It that somehow foreshadowed the current #cancellation culture.
It's relating to politics, of course, where this sort of thing is par for the course/all about power rather than ethics, but it's exactly the same thing that's happening now. The MP protagonist of the first series says something like: "why couldn't all politicians be born 50 year old accountants" or something similar (I've butchered it, for sure). You see that with something like Kavanaugh, or the Governor who blacked up in America - who knows about Kavanaugh, really, although he looks creepy if nothing else, but what was perhaps less damnable in the 80s, particularly for a teenager/young adult, can ruin your life as a 50 year old.
Young people love the cancellation culture because, by and large, they're immune from it. They weren't coming of age when the internet was starting to ossify and bloom with social media, where people treated it like a pub and/or anonymous chat room to say whatever they like. Even in to the start of the 2010s, people are stupid enough to either not delete/start their social media profiles again, or were so casual they neglected to 'get' with the times: which was to realise it could ruin your life. Most young people have learnt they have the power of Judge Judy and Executioner - and that in itself, the power to usurp, is a massive motivation behind it, as much as any utopian ethical belief system.
But yes. It's best to stay away from social media: don't treat it like a platform for actually changing anything. It's effectively glorified publishing - unless you're making money or power from it, i.e. a paid writer or academic or something similar, it's barely worth getting involved on twitter. For private social media posts...tricky one. Playing it safe would be the best option - don't write anything down on social media, or even in a text message, you wouldn't be happy to see go viral with your name attached to it.
Of course, the sick irony of all this is - in a weird kind of blurring of the lines of fiction and reality, as often is the case with social media - the actor who played the part of the MP in The Thick of It got arrested for possessing indecent images of children...
eirebilly wrote:If you take offence to a poster on here, you can place them on ignore so why cant these people just ignore what he writes if they find it so offensive? He didn't insight any hate, he just posted what he feels will happen such people. In his opinion, I will be going to hell but that's ok because I have a different view and ultimately its what I believe that drives me on, not what others think or say.
Appreciate you're trying your best here, but your perhaps missing what's at stake here: power. There's power in outrage, and there's power in shaping the world to be more puritanical. For some, it's solely about the power - an I think that percentage is probably growing as growing up online is definitely creating more sociopaths (twitter and youtube different sides of the same coin in that regard).
Last edited by miaow on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Israel Folau
by tigertattie Wed 17 Apr 2019, 2:50 pm
There's a difference between voicing your beliefs and hate speech. Falou's post is hate speech as he is inferring that the list of people he does not agree with should be punished by going to hell.
If he said he did not agree with x,y and z, then that is voicing his opinion. Saying x,y and z are going to hell, well, that’s stoking the flames (pun intended)
If he said he did not agree with x,y and z, then that is voicing his opinion. Saying x,y and z are going to hell, well, that’s stoking the flames (pun intended)
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Re: Israel Folau
by eirebilly Wed 17 Apr 2019, 3:02 pm
I guess we will all see things differently. I certainly did not see what Folau wrote as being a hate speech.
There are countless evangelists/religious leaders around the world (even in all our respective countries) that say and post far worse things on a daily basis. These are people with power but yet the outrage directed towards them has/is not even remotely as bad as the outrage directed towards Folau.
There are countless evangelists/religious leaders around the world (even in all our respective countries) that say and post far worse things on a daily basis. These are people with power but yet the outrage directed towards them has/is not even remotely as bad as the outrage directed towards Folau.
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Re: Israel Folau
by LordDowlais Wed 17 Apr 2019, 3:08 pm
No 7&1/2 wrote:So you've changed your mind then LD. What swayed you?
No I have not changed my mind, what has made you come to that conclusion ?
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Re: Israel Folau
by the-goon Wed 17 Apr 2019, 3:08 pm
No 7&1/2 wrote:From that point of view LD I've known really racist guys who truly believed black people had sub intelligence. They'd express that too. I still.consider it hateful despite it being a truly held belief. But there we go.
Again I'm not really offended by his words I think he's a bit thick, gullible and general scum.
Do you think that the 86 odd percent of the world's muslims (according to pew research) who think homosexuality is immoral are also scum?
Or is that reserved just for Christians?
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Re: Israel Folau
by Rugby Fan Wed 17 Apr 2019, 3:09 pm
Folau had every right to post what he did. No, not everyone one will get sacked - or even disciplined - for doing and saying things which might offend others. Neither of those statements means that Folau can not still rightfully lose his ARU contract.eirebilly wrote:As I said previously, I do not agree with what he posted but in my opinion he has every right to post and believe what he wants to. On a daily basis, we all do and say things that may offend others so should we all lose our jobs because of that?
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Re: Israel Folau
by Barney McGrew did it Wed 17 Apr 2019, 3:10 pm
Some of you didn't listen to Folau - he didn't condemn anyone to Hell. He provided a get-out clause - repent (and you will be saved).
It's true that extreme religion (and politics) makes fools of the wise. But that could easily include extreme atheism.
It's true that extreme religion (and politics) makes fools of the wise. But that could easily include extreme atheism.
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Re: Israel Folau
by LordDowlais Wed 17 Apr 2019, 3:38 pm
tigertattie wrote:There's a difference between voicing your beliefs and hate speech. Falou's post is hate speech as he is inferring that the list of people he does not agree with should be punished by going to hell.
If he said he did not agree with x,y and z, then that is voicing his opinion. Saying x,y and z are going to hell, well, that’s stoking the flames (pun intended)
You and I see this differently then. That's OK.
You see I see hate preaching as people using words of hatred. Like when we see people like Abu Hamza preaching that all the infidels need to be cleansed from the earth, all non believers must die ect.....
I do not see anything like that in Israel Folau's message. All I saw was a warning of what he thinks God will do to them when they reach the end of their mortal lives, and how they can avoid that punishment.
You see, Israel Folau is not telling us what people who believes what he does, to go out and do anything to these people. It is almost as if he is giving advice in relation to what he believes, he is not telling anybody they have to repent, he is saying if they don't, he believes they will go to Hell. That does not mean that they must repent, he wants them to, but it is up to them.
Also, by saying them, I count myself as them, as on his list, I have done a few, I have lied, I drink, I had a lot of sex before marriage
but I do not care what he said, because I believe differently. I was brought up very religiously by my parents, I am a Welsh Baptist, I have been brought up that way, I met my wife through the church, but as I grew older, my ties to the church have become less and less, my wife still goes as often as she can and she takes my younger daughter along with her, and my oldest daughter will go with them when she feels like, I will go when I get the guilt trip, but as much as it pains me to say, I just do not get the time mostly, and when I have, I always find a reason to do something more constructive. But anyway, enough of that. What I am trying to get to is, that I still have strong beliefs, I always steer myself with the ten commandments as you can not really go wrong with that.
In the ten commandments, there is nothing about drinking, lying, or sex before marriage, so I believe I'm off the hook with what I believe, there is also nothing about being gay, so gay people are off the hook as well, could I be a better Christian ? Yes, by a long shot, does that make me a bad person, no.
Who is right ? Who is wrong ? None of us know, only one person I know about has died, met God, and come back to the mortal plain, and he was around over 2000 years ago, no one else I know, knows what happens when we face the almighty, so in my opinion, Israel Folau is only guilty of being arrogant.
Nobody on here knows, whether or not, that Israel Folau hates anyone or anything, all we do know is, that he believes that people are making the wrong choices in the eyes of God as he sees it. Not once has he mentioned hate, not once has he mentioned violence, and not once has he indicated towards hate.
That is how I see it.
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Re: Israel Folau
by tigertattie Wed 17 Apr 2019, 3:47 pm
That’s the problem/joy (depending on your viewpoint) with religion, no one knows who is right or who is wrong. Religion is the biggest opinion in the world.
I'd class myself as Agnostic when it comes to religion. Religion has been responsible for some of the most horrendous acts in human history, but it's been responsible for some of the best acts in history too.
I'd class myself as Agnostic when it comes to religion. Religion has been responsible for some of the most horrendous acts in human history, but it's been responsible for some of the best acts in history too.
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Re: Israel Folau
by Noble-Surfer Wed 17 Apr 2019, 4:02 pm
eirebilly wrote:As I said previously, I do not agree with what he posted but in my opinion he has every right to post and believe what he wants to. On a daily basis, we all do and say things that may offend others so should we all lose our jobs because of that? If you take offence to a poster on here, you can place them on ignore so why cant these people just ignore what he writes if they find it so offensive? He didn't insight any hate, he just posted what he feels will happen such people. In his opinion, I will be going to hell but that's ok because I have a different view and ultimately its what I believe that drives me on, not what others think or say.
Spot on.
Most kids are taught the saying, "Sticks & stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."...
Why/ when is it that this stops applying? Just because someone has an opinion that is different to a lot/ the majority people, does that mean that their opinion is any less valid? If so, who decides that it is? Society? Society often gets things wrong too...
Folau did not actually say anything to suggest that he personally hates anyone. Just stated what he believes to be fact.
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Re: Israel Folau
by LordDowlais Wed 17 Apr 2019, 4:06 pm
tigertattie wrote: That’s the problem/joy (depending on your viewpoint) with religion, no one knows who is right or who is wrong. Religion is the biggest opinion in the world.
I'd class myself as Agnostic when it comes to religion. Religion has been responsible for some of the most horrendous acts in human history, but it's been responsible for some of the best acts in history too.
Ah, so your an inbetweener.
Only joking.
Your right, religion is responsible for horrendous acts. The crusades, both Christianity and Islam, both guilty for their participation in fighting over the holey land. Both religions who claim to practice piece, love and prosperity, and that is just one example.
But I will say to you, please don't get bogged down in the atrocities of religion, as an Agnostic, keep an open mind, you are not dismissing either side of the coin, which is great.
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