Israel Folau

Noble-Surfer wrote:

eirebilly wrote:As I said previously, I do not agree with what he posted but in my opinion he has every right to post and believe what he wants to. On a daily basis, we all do and say things that may offend others so should we all lose our jobs because of that? If you take offence to a poster on here, you can place them on ignore so why cant these people just ignore what he writes if they find it so offensive? He didn't insight any hate, he just posted what he feels will happen such people. In his opinion, I will be going to hell but that's ok because I have a different view and ultimately its what I believe that drives me on, not what others think or say.

Spot on.

Most kids are taught the saying, "Sticks & stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."...

Why/ when is it that this stops applying? Just because someone has an opinion that is different to a lot/ the majority people, does that mean that their opinion is any less valid? If so, who decides that it is? Society? Society often gets things wrong too...

Folau did not actually say anything to suggest that he personally hates anyone. Just stated what he believes to be fact.

It's a sign of society today. Vegans demonstrating in restaurants about people eating meat, climate change protesters blocking the streets of London and vandalising businesses, gender neutral people demanding this that and the other, and what happens when they do not get their way ? There is mass outrage, the world has gone bonkers.

The mass hysteria of the slightest injustice in this world today is overwhelming, it is taking away the more important fundamentals of everyday life, like family, friends, precious times, company, helping your fellow man/woman or gender neutral  But seriously, life is just too short, we are not here for long in the grand scheme of it all, lets enjoy it whilst we are here.

Noble-Surfer wrote:Most kids are taught the saying, "Sticks & stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."...

Why/ when is it that this stops applying?...

The legal systems of virtually every developed society define types of speech which will incur civil or criminal penalties. Take your pick. In Japan, you can be sued for defamation even if what you say is factually true, because laws there will penalize you, if your intention is to stir up mischief. Americans, who have far more free speech protection, would be shocked by the line being drawn there. However, even Americans are not free to say whatever they want without consequences. No-one in the States would be surprised by the ARU wanting Folau to abide by social media guidelines.

There's a lot we don't know about this case. I wrote above, that I wonder where Folau would stand if he had said his post in church and it had been filmed and posted by someone else. His views would be the same, but you could make the case more convicingly he was speaking in a private capacity. His instagram account, however, is in no way a private capacity.

We have had a report of some offensive comments earlier in the thread, which I have edited out.

The thread has been generally very good, but please, no offensive posts about any individual.

Article says RA may not have specific social media restrictions on Folau but state law gives them sufficient grounds to act against him anyway.

The NSW Anti-Discrimination Act 1977 (Section 49ZT) states: "It is unlawful for a person, by a public act, to incite hatred towards, serious contempt for, or severe ridicule of, a person or group of persons on the ground of the homosexuality of the person or members of the group".

A spokeswoman for The Workplace Employment Lawyers said RA can argue that Folau breached his contract by going against legally correct direction RA gave him.

"'Free speech' in the workplace is qualified by employee's obligations under their contract. In this case, it appears that Folau was told about RA's policies and its expectations in relation to his conduct," she said.

"Given the history, and as Folau is a public figure, RA is likely to have grounds for taking disciplinary action which may include termination of his contract."

She added: "The NSW Anti-Discrimination Act protects against a 'public act' which amounts to vilification.

"We are not aware of any case law considering vilification in the context of argued religious expression in the workplace.

"However, recent cases show that vilification via social media is being considered by the courts."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=12223002

LD. Sorry by your post amen to that I thought you were agreeing to his entire post ie he shouldn't have been sacked.

Mikey - please look at the post I just made about offensive comments

Seven and half - same applies to you please

I have read the old testament, the new testament and the Quran.

I don't recall in the OT or the NT specific mention of people being sent to hell.  In the OT there are stories of God doing a bit of smiting in Sodom and Gomorrah but it is written as a historical event and I don't recall the inhabitants being sent to hell.  The inhabitants are presented as "lawless", as raping people, as killing people.  So it is unclear that God did his historical smiting solely because of consensual homosexual practice or if at all - given all the other stuff going on.

In the NT I think there may be some reference in Pauls letters that he disapproved of homosexual activity but I don't recall any claim they will be sent to hell?

The Quran however makes hell a central piece of its text.  Basically nearly every chapter there is mention of hell and it is presented as a warning - for the present and the future - that all non-believers would be sent to hell.  It spends quite a lot of paragraphes and pages describing hell as a very unpleasant place - where you are forced to feed on a bark of some tree that burns your innards and the like.  ALthough I don't recall specifically any mention of homosexuals being sent to hell (just all non-believers).   Though the Quran is a central text of Islam there are also something called the Hadiths which I think are supposedly first hand accounts of Muhammads life - where apparently the issue of homosexuals may have been explicity mentioned.

Sorry in relation to what BeeGee?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sorry in relation to what BeeGee?

The terminology you used to refer to IF, sounds like scrum!

Plumbum balloon

Ah. Ok. Cheers proves my point on free speech!

BigGee wrote:Mikey - please look at the post I just made about offensive comments

" " is an offensive post?

So Folau wants a hearing....I wonder if there is a place in hell for people who dont have the courage of their own convictions.

Pie wrote:So Folau wants a hearing....I wonder if there is a place in hell for people who dont have the courage of their own convictions.

Drew Mitchell made a similar point. He noted that Folau promised last year he would just walk away from his contract voluntarily, if RA decided his position with them was untenable.

So...um does that make him a liar

Bye bye Israel enjoy hell

I really don't think he's coming back. He's not just meekly walking away, but RA holds all the power here. It requires Folau to effectively backtrack sufficiently to the point where he's being hypocritical. The only way Folau plays rugby in/for Oz again is if RA bottles it completely and realises they're sacking their brightest attacking spark (bar maybe Quade) months before the RWC. Where, let's not forget, they finished 2nd last time out and will feel there's unfinished business. Also, the game is dying there, and can they really afford to put 'principles' (again, I take issue that this is an ethical decision) above rugby ones for the good of the game? I think there's way too much pressure the other way for them to back down now, but I think it's more likely RA offers a peace treaty than Folau does the legwork to regain his place in the Wallabies set-up. Let's not forget as well that the Australian captain and Head Coach have said they wouldn't want to play alongside or pick him respectively.

He's done, this is just a formality.

Also I think its important to point out that when I say bye bye Israel I am referring to the Aussie hypocritical rugby bigot not the country as I wouldn't want to offend any millennials and obviously by using the same noun I realize I could offend people who have been there on holiday

mikey_dragon wrote:

Pie wrote:

miaow wrote:Pretty much the last thing I'm going to say on this as it took my the best part of half an hour to bash that out.

do you have a job?

She's a nurse .

How did this comment get past the mods btw? What a dweeb you are meici...

I was kidding, I’m sorry if I caused offence. What about Big Gee removing my emoticon post though and claiming it was offensive? Looks like he got that one wrong and is yet to apologise.

Think it's a case of the dragon who cried wolf there...

LordDowlais wrote:
It's a sign of society today. ..... climate change protesters blocking the streets of London and vandalising businesses,...... the world has gone bonkers.

The mass hysteria of the slightest injustice in this world today is overwhelming, it is taking away the more important fundamentals of everyday life, like family, friends, precious times, company, helping your fellow man/woman or gender neutral  But seriously, life is just too short, we are not here for long in the grand scheme of it all, lets enjoy it whilst we are here.

If we don't do something about climate change soon you, and I, will not have the luxury of spending time with family and friends

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:  
It's a sign of society today. ..... climate change protesters blocking the streets of London and vandalising businesses,...... the world has gone bonkers.

The mass hysteria of the slightest injustice in this world today is overwhelming, it is taking away the more important fundamentals of everyday life, like family, friends, precious times, company, helping your fellow man/woman or gender neutral  But seriously, life is just too short, we are not here for long in the grand scheme of it all, lets enjoy it whilst we are here.

If we don't do something about climate change soon you, and I, will not have the luxury of spending time with family and friends

There is a lot we can do, I agree, but vandalising local businesses, blocking up airports, and city centers and causing chaos is not the correct way to go about it.

These people are breaking the law. They think, just because they have this moral high ground, they can behave as they like. I believe the best form of change, is brought through education, not anarchy.

To low key - the time for that was 20 years ago.

At the current level of action the temperature will go up 3.4C from pre industrial levels by 2100
At current levels of pledges the temperature will go up by 2.9C from pre industrial levels by 2100
General acceptance, by experts, over 2C will lead to violent unpredictable events and death for millions

Sadly I suspect we are already screwed.

geoff999rugby wrote:To low key  - the time for that was 20 years ago.

At the current level of action the temperature will go up 3.4C from pre industrial levels by 2100
At current levels of pledges the temperature will go up by 2.9C from pre industrial levels by 2100
General acceptance, by experts, over 2C will lead to violent unpredictable events and death for millions

Sadly I suspect we are already screwed.

So you think anarchy is they way forward then ? An eye for an eye and all that ? I posted this earlier on:-

We have an open cast mine on the outskirts of my home town, the protesters there make life really hard, they chain themselves to vehicles, they block off the access roads, they fly drones over the site, all this stops work happening, a mate of mine who worked there recently lost his job because the protesters would not let his shift on site, and the company had to give in and stop the afternoon shift. It's rediculous. No more afternoon shift, just to keep the protesters happy, 30+ people are now out of work. I will add as well, that they are putting themselves and others in danger with their actions.

Is this how we make things right ? If you honestly feel that way, then fine, that's your right. We will just have to agree to disagree.

True gammon

The current climate change protesters are breaking the law, some of them, and should be arrested. Yet I still support their actions. It is too late to educate as by the time those willing to listen are in decision making positions it will be too late, assuming we have not already passed that point.

A century ago some women in the UK attained the right to vote. This was largely due to direct and illegal protests. Now we celebrate those women. I hope in 100 years time my great grandchildren are living in a world that means they can celebrate the activism of our peers.

The climate protest is hardly anarchy. If it was at all anarchistic and it was at all violent or damage was being done, then no doubt the police would have gone in a lot more heavy handed and cleared them out. Part of their problem is that pretty much the only law they are breaking is obstructing the highway, which is a pretty insignificant crime and does not really warrant heavy handed policing.

It is all very Gandhiesque in terms of peaceful protest. It has also been very well thought out and planned.

I have to say as someone who lives in London, it is not generating masses of public anger either, I suspect most people do think they have a good point and the right to make it. People are generally an awful lot more annoyed with the transport unions when they strike, for less sympathetic reasons.

BigGee wrote:The climate protest is hardly anarchy. If it was at all anarchistic and it was at all violent or damage was being done, then no doubt the police would have gone in a lot more heavy handed and cleared them out. Part of their problem is that pretty much the only law they are breaking is obstructing the highway, which is a pretty insignificant crime and does not really warrant heavy handed policing.

It is all very Gandhiesque in terms of peaceful protest. It has also been very well thought out and planned.

I have to say as someone who lives in London, it is not generating masses of public anger either, I suspect most people do think they have a good point and the right to make it. People are generally an awful lot more annoyed with the transport unions when they strike, for less sympathetic reasons.

Gandhiesque is stretching it a bit, 500 people have been arrested and there is definitely a violent anti-government, anti-police component to it and folk just out to cause a bit of grief. As in issue it’s something I’d say most people, businesses and governments broadly agree on though.

We all agree on it. And there has been violence, and there has been damage. Businesses have been vandalised, windows and doors have been smashed ect....

I agree with there protest, but not with their actions.

LondonTiger wrote:A century ago some women in the UK attained the right to vote. This was largely due to direct and illegal protests. Now we celebrate those women. I hope in 100 years time my great grandchildren are living in a world that means they can celebrate the activism of our peers.

Didn't a woman die for this ? Emily Wilding Davison died whilst jumping out infront of a racehorse at Epsom.

Do we really need it to go to that length again ? Surely not ?

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:A century ago some women in the UK attained the right to vote. This was largely due to direct and illegal protests. Now we celebrate those women. I hope in 100 years time my great grandchildren are living in a world that means they can celebrate the activism of our peers.

Didn't a woman die for this ? Emily Wilding Davison died whilst jumping out infront of a racehorse at Epsom.

Do we really need it to go to that length again ? Surely not ?

Sadly we probably do - what a condemnation of our societal values and political structures

Got to love Emma Thompson, she is so interested in climate change that she flew all the way back from the States to join the protesters. The irony of it.

So many of these protesters are "professional protesters" you see that outside of fracking sites, along the route of HS2 living in make shift shelters, they join in to every "fashionable protest", presumably by drawing state benefits of some sort. I thought you had to be available for work if you are able bodied to draw Universal Credit

Protest/demonstration is one thing and must be a protected right, but occupation of areas to cause disruption is obstruction and must be dealt with accordingly.

I'd take a few hundred to a thousands professional spongers getting their kicks out of believing they're Lenin/Gandhi over cynically dismissing the actual aims of environmental protest. Cynicism allows others to guide your behaviour.

I know this thread's meandered a bit as well...but isn't this a rugby forum?

Miaow, I have no complaint with the beliefs of protestors as long as they are sincere, it is the protesters that turn up for every event, no matter what the cause or the argument is I object to, especially if they are sponging off the state to do it.

Everyone is entitled to believe what they wish, in this case I have some sympathy with the cause, I just don't think causing chaos in Central London and incidentally causing more pollution due to the traffic congestion, is the way to go about solving the problem. It will not change anything with this or any other of the main stream parties likely to form government.

A better way of spending their time would be to analyse the voting record of MPs on environmental issues and then what they spout out in their speeches. Name and shame, hang them out to dry in public, make it difficult to say one thing whilst voting with the party line. Change is best effected from the inside, not from outside. People are becoming more aware these days, MPs that pretend to be environmentalists, but do nothing for the environment whilst sitting in Westminster or other should be held to account.

One of the things I disagree with strongly is this fuss about going carbon neutral by using hybrid or electric cars. The manufacture of the batteries often causes more pollution than a modern petrol or diesel car, however that is all somewhere else, so we get the benefit, the third world countries get the pollution.


Now back to Israel Folau, punishment make him read the bible from Genesis to Revelations and evidence that God wants to send all people that disagreed with the Catholic scribes that put the books of the bible together (we will overlook the hundreds of writings and scripts from the same era that the church keeps sealed off and will not allow anyone to see as they contradict the writings they want to promote) to hell.

I had a very Catholic upbringing and I can assure you that the Nuns that taught us at my school came direct from hell.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Miaow, I have no complaint with the beliefs of protestors as long as they are sincere, it is the protesters that turn up for every event, no matter what the cause or the argument is I object to, especially if they are sponging off the state to do it.

Unverifiable assumptions there, notably about peoples sincerity and their work status

geoff999rugby wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Miaow, I have no complaint with the beliefs of protestors as long as they are sincere, it is the protesters that turn up for every event, no matter what the cause or the argument is I object to, especially if they are sponging off the state to do it.

Unverifiable  assumptions there, notably about peoples sincerity and their work status

Exactly. Plenty of the people the police were taking away yesterday looked relatively older and decidedly middle class. This is not the type of demonstration we have seen in this country any time recently, if ever.

I'm not talking about climate protestors, I literally am and have been one at various times. I'm talking more about a broad, sweeping brush stroke over protest as a genuine tactic/necessity - there are some deeply unsavoury, narcissistic idiots in what would be called 'radical politics'. These days, you can be that behind a screen rather than trying to lead a cult. But there are still idiots within any movement - immature, egotistical, deluded people. Sadly, the right wing/establishment press has known to hold up these people to the masses for literally centuries as a way of scaring them in to cynicism. Because who wants to be associated with them? Sponging off the state is less of an issue as sponging off other people, I think. Anyway, what has this got to do with Folau ffs?

I live very close to where the HS2 line is running out of London, there are 20 or so "huts/shelters" locally that are inhabited by protesters who are usually present when I drive past, funnily enough they have not been there for the last few days, likewise when other demonstrations/protests have been going on. They are there 7 days a week so they are being supported somehow.

You seem to be generalising about my post, I have no problem with the protesters who have genuine issues with anything, although I do have issues with they way they express their views, it is the minority that seem to be state sponsored (via hand outs) professional demonstrators/protestors that jump onto every bandwagon and see that as their principle occupation that wind me up.

Newsflash

They are insincere, wasters and dishonest people in any large body of people

Be it the Church, a bank, a political party, a charity, a supermarket, a protest organisation, a Trade Union, a rugby team, the police, the NHS etc etc
Not something any of us should be surprised about - what we should not do is transfer their shortcomings and label the vast majority of sincere, dedicated people in such organisation trying to do what they believe is right

geoff999rugby wrote:Newsflash

They are insincere, wasters and dishonest people in any large body of people

Be it the Church, a bank, a political party, a charity, a supermarket, a protest organisation, a Trade Union, a rugby team, the police, the NHS etc etc
Not something any of us should be surprised about - what we should not do is transfer their shortcomings and label the vast majority of sincere, dedicated people in such organisation trying to do what they believe is right  

Totally agree, see "I have no problem with the protesters who have genuine issues with anything"

I don't see how protesting is going to help climate change! The primary driver of climate change is the extravagant consumerism of the populace, not government policy. On the one hand activists protest for 'someone in government to do something', while the other hand flying to unnecessary holidays, buying food out of season (so that it has to be shipped across the world and refrigerated for 6 months); buying new clothes every year, new phones and computers, new cars; having a multitude of inane electronic appliances; having central heating that's too hot, and air-conditioning that's too cold...

Mr Fishpaste your making the same mistake I highlighted.

Unsubstantiated generalizations of how individuals conduct themselves
Governments encourage the very consumerism you talk about
Of course Governments can do something - and have, just not enough

As to holidays - all holidays are unnecessary by their very nature.
Flying is a problem but two little facts - shipping is far far worse; if concrete were a country it would be responsible for 6% of the world pollution, more than flying and the 4th worst polluter in the World

geoff999rugby wrote:Mr Fishpaste your making the same mistake I highlighted.

Unsubstantiated generalizations of how individuals conduct themselves
Governments encourage the very consumerism you talk about
Of course Governments can do something - and have, just not enough

As to holidays - all holidays are unnecessary by their very nature.
Flying is a problem but two little facts - shipping is far far worse; if concrete were a country it would be responsible for 6% of the world pollution, more than flying and the 4th worst polluter in the World

Behind grass eating farm animals such as cows in particular and sheep

Time to lock this thread?

miaow wrote:Time to lock this thread?

Lockers of threads also go to hell.

Are you saying that the Mods are all fornicators?

Just sack him and be done with it. The lord will feed him and his family. We have a world cup year and thats far more important than all this going to hell rubbish. I see his Tahs side still managed to win without him. Kudos to them for having to put up with all this and unite at least enough to win.

I think that removes any of them from folaus list.

I have had to remove a couple of posts again guys.

Please adhere to what we said at the beginning of this thread, it is a public forum and we can't allow anything that could be construed as controversial or offensive