Israel Folau

geoff999rugby wrote:Mr Fishpaste your making the same mistake I highlighted.

Unsubstantiated generalizations of how individuals conduct themselves
Governments encourage the very consumerism you talk about
Of course Governments can do something - and have, just not enough

As to holidays - all holidays are unnecessary by their very nature.
Flying is a problem but two little facts - shipping is far far worse; if concrete were a country it would be responsible for 6% of the world pollution, more than flying and the 4th worst polluter in the World

tigertattie wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Mr Fishpaste your making the same mistake I highlighted.

Unsubstantiated generalizations of how individuals conduct themselves
Governments encourage the very consumerism you talk about
Of course Governments can do something - and have, just not enough

As to holidays - all holidays are unnecessary by their very nature.
Flying is a problem but two little facts - shipping is far far worse; if concrete were a country it would be responsible for 6% of the world pollution, more than flying and the 4th worst polluter in the World

Where did you get that fact from? As I understand it, shipping freight around the world has a far lower carbon footprint than flying it!

BigGee wrote:

tigertattie wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Mr Fishpaste your making the same mistake I highlighted.

Unsubstantiated generalizations of how individuals conduct themselves
Governments encourage the very consumerism you talk about
Of course Governments can do something - and have, just not enough

As to holidays - all holidays are unnecessary by their very nature.
Flying is a problem but two little facts - shipping is far far worse; if concrete were a country it would be responsible for 6% of the world pollution, more than flying and the 4th worst polluter in the World

Where did you get that fact from? As I understand it, shipping freight around the world has a far lower carbon footprint than flying it!

In relative terms maybe but in absolute terms certainly not, the great bulk of international trade still goes by sea

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Mr Fishpaste your making the same mistake I highlighted.

Unsubstantiated generalizations of how individuals conduct themselves
Governments encourage the very consumerism you talk about
Of course Governments can do something - and have, just not enough

As to holidays - all holidays are unnecessary by their very nature.
Flying is a problem but two little facts - shipping is far far worse; if concrete were a country it would be responsible for 6% of the world pollution, more than flying and the 4th worst polluter in the World

Behind grass eating farm animals such as cows in particular and sheep

Cyril wrote:Double post can’t delete!

Collapse2005 wrote:What cropped up?

tigertattie wrote:Cant we go back to talking about beef imports instead?

tigertattie wrote:Cant we go back to talking about beef imports instead?

BamBam wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:What cropped up?

Assume its this - https://www.rugbypass.com/news/might-as-well-sack-me-tongan-thor-leaps-samu-kerevis-defence-as-reds-and-wallabies-star-apologises-for-instagram-post/

Completely different imo, nothing wrong with what Kerevi posted

Rugby Fan wrote:One disappointing aspect of this affair is the way it has sometimes been described as a confrontation between PC western culture and the traditional christianity of islanders, which was introduced/imposed on them by westerners in the first place.

Pacific Islanders are not the only Christians in rugby. It's a strong current in South Africa and not insignificant in Italy and Ireland. One of the best rugby schools in my part of England- known for past and current international players - was Catholic.

I mentioned Ruan Pienaar and  Euan Murray before. We know about them, because Pienaar said how important the church was to him during his time in Ulster, and Murray didn't play on Sunday.



Ugo Monye wrote a piece recently where he highlighted his own Christian background, and wondered whether the furore over Folau and Vunipola was creating a hostile environment for christians. He noted that Qantas has a relationships with Emirates, while the UAE is hostile to homosexuality, which he thinks seems like double standards.

Monye has Nigerian ancestry, just like Maro Itoje. Christianity is probably important in the families of both men but neither has got themselves in the jam Folau finds himself in.

Folau is by no means the first rugby player to hold his religious views on homosexuality during an era when homosexuality is not only not criminalized, but same sex partnerships are permitted.

If Monye does feel gay people are going to hell - and I don't know if he does - then he has had the good sense not to say so publicly. I don't think he keeps his counsel just so he can retain his media contracts; I think Monye knows he would offend people he counts as his friends, and does not wish to do so.



For all the "PC gone mad" claims about opposition to Folau, it's been eye-opening to see how wide that constituency is. Brexit-supporting Andy Goode is no-one's idea of a woolly liberal, and he opposes Folau.

I've been struck by how many Irish pundits have been as much concerned about Vunipola as Folau. There are many dyed-in-the-wool rugby men among them, so this also isn't a knee-jerk LGBT response. Perhaps it shouldn't be surprising, give that the major premise of Irish international rugby is not letting religious differences divide the team.

The US is a an interesting test case. America is more overtly religious than most major rugby nations, so they have been dealing with these issues in more depth than we have.

Take the case of American Football high school coach Joe Kennedy. For years, he held prayer services in his coaching sessions, until word got out he was doing it. His bosses told him to stop, but he didn't. He then lost his job but appealed on the grounds his first amendent rights were being infringed. The US has much stronger free speech protection than Australia or the UK but he lost his case.

https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/local/2018/06/26/bremerton-school-prayer-case-coach-joe-kennedy-supreme-court/734402002/

No-one was stopping Kennedy holding his beliefs. He just couldn't express them in that way, while employed by a Board of Education.

Rugby Fan wrote:One disappointing aspect of this affair is the way it has sometimes been described as a confrontation between PC western culture and the traditional christianity of islanders, which was introduced/imposed on them by westerners in the first place.

Pacific Islanders are not the only Christians in rugby. It's a strong current in South Africa and not insignificant in Italy and Ireland. One of the best rugby schools in my part of England- known for past and current international players - was Catholic.

I mentioned Ruan Pienaar and  Euan Murray before. We know about them, because Pienaar said how important the church was to him during his time in Ulster, and Murray didn't play on Sunday.



Ugo Monye wrote a piece recently where he highlighted his own Christian background, and wondered whether the furore over Folau and Vunipola was creating a hostile environment for christians. He noted that Qantas has a relationships with Emirates, while the UAE is hostile to homosexuality, which he thinks seems like double standards.

Monye has Nigerian ancestry, just like Maro Itoje. Christianity is probably important in the families of both men but neither has got themselves in the jam Folau finds himself in.

Folau is by no means the first rugby player to hold his religious views on homosexuality during an era when homosexuality is not only not criminalized, but same sex partnerships are permitted.

If Monye does feel gay people are going to hell - and I don't know if he does - then he has had the good sense not to say so publicly. I don't think he keeps his counsel just so he can retain his media contracts; I think Monye knows he would offend people he counts as his friends, and does not wish to do so.



For all the "PC gone mad" claims about opposition to Folau, it's been eye-opening to see how wide that constituency is. Brexit-supporting Andy Goode is no-one's idea of a woolly liberal, and he opposes Folau.

I've been struck by how many Irish pundits have been as much concerned about Vunipola as Folau. There are many dyed-in-the-wool rugby men among them, so this also isn't a knee-jerk LGBT response. Perhaps it shouldn't be surprising, give that the major premise of Irish international rugby is not letting religious differences divide the team.

The US is a an interesting test case. America is more overtly religious than most major rugby nations, so they have been dealing with these issues in more depth than we have.

Take the case of American Football high school coach Joe Kennedy. For years, he held prayer services in his coaching sessions, until word got out he was doing it. His bosses told him to stop, but he didn't. He then lost his job but appealed on the grounds his first amendent rights were being infringed. The US has much stronger free speech protection than Australia or the UK but he lost his case.

https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/local/2018/06/26/bremerton-school-prayer-case-coach-joe-kennedy-supreme-court/734402002/

No-one was stopping Kennedy holding his beliefs. He just couldn't express them in that way, while employed by a Board of Education.

TJ wrote:Folau can follow whatever religion he wants.  what he cannot do is make homophobic public sttements.  the two are not mutually exclusive.

Religion is like a Winkle.  Its fine to own one and be proud of it but please do not wave it around in public and try to stuff it down others throats

tigertattie wrote:I'm afraid that society is determined on the numbers.

20 years ago the vegetarians were running around saying they were the being all ethical and not eating meat. Society in large labelled these guys as "hippes" and scoffed.

Now though they are starting to be seen as pioneers and we could be looking at a shift to eating far less meat.

These matters are opionions. Sometimes opinions change. Sometimes the masses take a while to catch on. Sometimes the minorites take a while to catch on.

Look at the puritons in the states 100s of years ago. Could you imagine such things like divorce in those days? But now it's widely accepted with more than half of couples getting a divorce these days.

Now, where is my capfire and Ukelele. Its time to sing coombyah

TJ wrote:Its not his religion thats the issue. Its his making homophobic and bigoted statements in public.

TJ wrote:sorry that post is not clear.  What I meant is he is perfectly entitled to hold whatever views he wants.  what he is not entitled to do is to make statements that are prejudiced in public.

Its not his religion thats the issue.  Its his making homophobic and bigoted statements in public.

The winkle one is simply an analogy and a famous and well used one.

No 7&1/2 wrote:As you admitted yourself LD you wouldn't make a statement like he did as you'd expect offence to be caused. As a Christian shouldn't he be trying to avoid that himself, avoid forcing those beliefs? All separate to the issue with rugby but he's already seen how his previous post was received.

No 7&1/2 wrote:As you admitted yourself LD you wouldn't make a statement like he did as you'd expect offence to be caused. As a Christian shouldn't he be trying to avoid that himself, avoid forcing those beliefs? All separate to the issue with rugby but he's already seen how his previous post was received.

Irish Londoner wrote:The difference is that someone's sexual orientation is not a matter of choice. I can choose to get drunk, commit adultery, fornicate, steal, lie, etc.

You do not have a choice about your sexuality - if you are gay, straight or anything inbetween that's how and who you are.

"If God doesn't like gay people why does she make so many of them?"

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's not offering them salvation though LD. Nothing you can do about God making you gay.

SecretFly wrote:BTW:

With all this 'Phobia' related media content on the airwaves in the last ten or so years - I think it's important that all commentators should know the definition of the word as I do believe the definition of it has been hijacked by the political wings of all 'ISMS' and 'ISTS'.

The meaning of the word is Fear - not hate.
If I have Arachnophobia I fear spiders...I don't hate them.
If I have Agoraphobia then I fear physical spaces that make me uncomfortable.

Should people who run out of a room that they see a spider in lose their job?

But at least it's now clear that I don't have Drunkophobia after all, thank God.  I don't fear belligerent drunks.  I just hate them