England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

by Guest Thu 11 Apr 2019, 7:52 pm

First topic message reminder :

Mirroring the thread I did for Wales, England have had huge strength in depth for the last 9 years or so. Under Lancaster it seemed to be a hindrance as much as a strength, with no-one really leaping out to claim key positions, cycling through the likes of Twelvetrees, Burrell, Barritt etc. in the centre.

Now, it feels like England do have some real test quality players who have grabbed shirts with both hands and are nailed on: the Vunipolas, Tuilagi, Lawes, and latterly players like May, Curry, and Underhill.

With that in mind...who makes England's 31 man squad based on who's fit and available (as well as who's out injured)? If you want to include who you'd personally pick as well that'd be interesting, but who do England fans think will be in that squad in Japan?

Also, who is in the starting 23 and who are the 6-7 reserve players who stand a good chance of a call up?

I've done it for Wales in the Wales thread - think it's looking very settled, with a few first 15 positions up for debate depending on opposition. From the outside England's squad looks a lot less settled or certain.

Squads ten to be:

17-18 forwards
5 Props
2 or 3 Hookers
5 Second rows
5 or 6 Back rowers

13-14 Backs
3 Scrum-halves
2-3 Fly-halves
3 Centres
5 Back 3

So who/what is the current England squad?

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 12 Jun 2019, 1:37 pm

Another vote for Armitage here. Here was one of the few decent English players at the 2011 World Cup. Wish he hadn't gone to France. With his ability to play centre, wing and fullback, he would have been very handy in 2015 too. He could also take long range penalties, at a time when England had few goalkickers in the first choice 23. He was an Elliot Daly figure but with far more experience at full back.

by Gooseberry Wed 12 Jun 2019, 2:01 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Another vote for Armitage here. Here was one of the few decent English players at the 2011 World Cup. Wish he hadn't gone to France. With his ability to play centre, wing and fullback, he would have been very handy in 2015 too. He could also take long range penalties, at a time when England had few goalkickers in the first choice 23. He was an Elliot Daly figure but with far more experience at full back.

This perhaps is the issue isnt it.
From those who really seem to be in the mix Watson shouldve had a bunch of caps at full back by now. Instead we have Brown slightly past his best and two players still a work in progress. Or scrap them and start again with someone even more raw like Nowell or Ashton.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 12 Jun 2019, 3:47 pm

Or even the version of foden who burst onto the international scene. I still think Watson could go onto be the best option for the world cup. Daly is pretty much nailed on somewhere however and it looks to be full back.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 12 Jun 2019, 9:28 pm

https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest-news/33133/eddie-jones-to-ditch-dylan-hartley-from-world-cup-plans/

A source close to the team has said that as well as Hartley, the players expect Danny Care, Chris Robshaw, Nathan Hughes and Chris Ashton to be left out, with Gloucester No.9 Willi Heinz included ahead of Care

by king_carlos Wed 12 Jun 2019, 11:59 pm

LondonTiger wrote:https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest-news/33133/eddie-jones-to-ditch-dylan-hartley-from-world-cup-plans/

A source close to the team has said that as well as Hartley, the players expect Danny Care, Chris Robshaw, Nathan Hughes and Chris Ashton to be left out, with Gloucester No.9 Willi Heinz included ahead of Care

All are interesting absentees if true.

Care would arguably be the least surprising given he's been left out the recent squads. The story there would be Heinz coming from nowhere. With Youngs, Wigglesworth and Spencer also available it would seem futile to have a 4th scrum-half in the squad. I don't see why Heinz would be picked ahead of Wiggleworth or Spencer as kicking 9s but perhaps one of them has missed out.

If Hughes misses out then I wonder who the reserve number 8 will be given Billy Vunipola's injury record. Morgan? Mercer?

I'd be disappointed for Robshaw if he misses out. Wilson has nailed down the blindside spot in my opinion but I think Robshaw offers more than Shields as a backup.

If Ashton has been left out I'd presume that either Solomona or Thorley have snuck in. I'd take Thorley myself.

by yappysnap Thu 13 Jun 2019, 12:27 am

Morgan apparently has had a cracking season and is an 8 and has exp I guess.

Perhaps Dombrant will go?

by **Rugby Fan** Thu 13 Jun 2019, 1:20 am

I don't see Jones suddenly switching horses from Hughes to Morgan. He might think Wilson or Shields can handle playing eight, and dropping Hughes will give him room to include both, while also leaving space for Robshaw or Underhill. In the event Vunipola picks up a long injury - most of his breaks have seen him miss several weeks - then Hughes can still be called up.

That would still argue for Hughes being in the training squad, though, so his ommission would suggest a completely new approach.

by Gooseberry Thu 13 Jun 2019, 7:11 am

On the assumption "the source" is legit....

Morgan was in the extended squad in the AIs, did he get retained for the 6 nations?
It does feel like a late ditch and switch for a player whos not even made the bench under Jones but hes not coming back from complete isolation if it does happen.

Ditching most of the experience from the squad and several leaders though, hmm. Individually none of the old boys are that controversial to be left out but its quite a thing to refuse to have the 50 cap cavalry available when they are playing in positions that England are struggling for depth in (Ashton excluded). Combine that with a perceived lack of leadership and clear on the field direction at times for England it seems edgy to go without both former captains and so many other players with world cup experience

Some of this may be driven by fitness of course.

But Heinz tho. Yikes.

by Rinsure Thu 13 Jun 2019, 8:01 am

So six across the back row is likely:
Billy, Wilson, Shields, Curry, Underhill & one from Morgan / Mercer / Dombrandt / Simmonds..

And five across the backfield would be:
May, Daly, Watson, Nowell (fitness?) & one from Cokanasiga / Thorley / Solomona

Plus:

Gooseberry wrote:
But Heinz tho. Yikes.

Yup.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 13 Jun 2019, 8:31 am

With the 45 man training squad I would have expected 7 or 8 back rowers and a similar number of back 3 players.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu 13 Jun 2019, 8:47 am

Gooseberry wrote:Morgan was in the extended squad in the AIs, did he get retained for the 6 nations?

With Billy injured, and Hughes suspended for twittergate, Morgan was in line for at least a matchday squad place, and maybe even a start. He got injured, though, and either Shields or Wilson played eight, with Mercer on the bench as another with experience. Once Hughes was available again, Morgan didn't get another shot, so he was unlucky.

by king_carlos Thu 13 Jun 2019, 8:48 am

LondonTiger wrote:With the 45 man training squad I would have expected 7 or 8 back rowers and a similar number of back 3 players.

That TRP article from Fissler states it's the Elite Player Squad they've missed out on. Am I right in saying there is a distinction between the EPS and the training squads?

Under Jones especially the EPS has often included some rogue/tombola style suggestion then training squads named later on have looked very different with senior players often recalled. Perhaps I'm taking too much from the wording but it would be a big surprise for them to leave a lot of experience out in the cold.

It's a different scenario with the World Cup looming but when Jones has announced his EPS squads in August (also 45-man I believe) they have frequently been very different to the training squads named in November just prior to the Autumn Internationals.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 13 Jun 2019, 8:51 am

I assumed Fissler was getting his squads mixed up. AFAIK there is no requirement to name an EPS squad any time soon.

by Poorfour Thu 13 Jun 2019, 11:11 am

Given that the RWC training squad has no inherent limit, it would be odd not to look at everyone who is fit and in form, even if they only have an outside chance of making the cut.

On the other hand, Eddie does do some odd things

by **LondonTiger** Thu 13 Jun 2019, 11:20 am

Poorfour wrote:Given that the RWC training squad has no inherent limit, it would be odd not to look at everyone who is fit and in form, even if they only have an outside chance of making the cut.

On the other hand, Eddie does do some odd things

There will be a cost element too I should think. Or do guys not receive a payment for attending the pre-WC training?

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 13 Jun 2019, 11:33 am

I should think the clubs have a payment for suppling the players as well, or is that all wrapped up in the overall deal with the RFU? The standard tournaments and training sessions are all agreed, would a RWC be in there as well?

by robbo277 Thu 13 Jun 2019, 2:50 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Given that the RWC training squad has no inherent limit, it would be odd not to look at everyone who is fit and in form, even if they only have an outside chance of making the cut.

On the other hand, Eddie does do some odd things

There will be a cost element too I should think. Or do guys not receive a payment for attending the pre-WC training?

Not just the cost. If you take 6 scrum-halves because you're not really too sure, you don't get a proper look at anyone. It's Eddie's argument for only going with two 9s for so long, he wanted to give his 9s the most possible time with the 10s and have a good look at them.

If he calls up Youngs, Spencer, Robson, Wigglesworth, Care and Heinz as a wildcard, he could possibly undercook Youngs (in a desire to look at everyone else) and then still not get enough time to have a good look at everyone.

45 represents a balance. Not too many but allows you a chance to look at a few options.

I'd be a little surprised if both Hartley and Robshaw are left out, but maybe Jones is looking for more robust carriers and tacklers who are going to impose his high impact game across the 80 minutes. Jack Singleton is probably the main beneficiary of Hartley missing (unless Eddie goes with two hookers). Could we also see a Ted Hill, Alex Dombrandt or similar get a go in the back row?

by **LondonTiger** Thu 13 Jun 2019, 4:29 pm

John Mitchell has had his short term contract extended through to 2021 and now matches the end date on Eddie's contract.

by king_carlos Thu 13 Jun 2019, 5:39 pm

LondonTiger wrote:I assumed Fissler was getting his squads mixed up. AFAIK there is no requirement to name an EPS squad any time soon.

That's what I thought but just pondering whether there will be an EPS announced due to how selection will effect preseason for the Prem clubs. The partnership deal is meant to help ease those tensions after all.

by king_carlos Thu 13 Jun 2019, 5:47 pm

robbo277 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Poorfour wrote:Given that the RWC training squad has no inherent limit, it would be odd not to look at everyone who is fit and in form, even if they only have an outside chance of making the cut.

On the other hand, Eddie does do some odd things

There will be a cost element too I should think. Or do guys not receive a payment for attending the pre-WC training?

Not just the cost. If you take 6 scrum-halves because you're not really too sure, you don't get a proper look at anyone. It's Eddie's argument for only going with two 9s for so long, he wanted to give his 9s the most possible time with the 10s and have a good look at them.

If he calls up Youngs, Spencer, Robson, Wigglesworth, Care and Heinz as a wildcard, he could possibly undercook Youngs (in a desire to look at everyone else) and then still not get enough time to have a good look at everyone.

45 represents a balance. Not too many but allows you a chance to look at a few options.

I'd be a little surprised if both Hartley and Robshaw are left out, but maybe Jones is looking for more robust carriers and tacklers who are going to impose his high impact game across the 80 minutes. Jack Singleton is probably the main beneficiary of Hartley missing (unless Eddie goes with two hookers). Could we also see a Ted Hill, Alex Dombrandt or similar get a go in the back row?

I understand Robson has been ruled out due to recovery from DVT. It's a hammer blow for him as he'd just broken into the matchday squad when it struck. Thankfully it seems he will recover fully longer term. It sounds like Care will miss out and Robson is ruled out. Perhaps there will be 4 scrum-halves named with Spencer, Wigglesworth and Heinz fighting it out whilst Youngs continues his rehab.

I had similar thoughts on Hartley and Robshaw both missing out. The form of Wilson over this season and George over a couple of years now nails down the starter spots. Their experience would be valuable around the squad though you'd presume.

There have been plenty of young flankers around the training squads. Mercer, Hill and Dombrandt as blindside/number 8 options. Ben Earl and even Will Evans have been in training squads as openside options. Evans was a while ago and prior to injury problems though. Jack Willis could be a potential bolter for a training squad place.

by Poorfour Thu 13 Jun 2019, 6:12 pm

I've been saying since the AIs that dropping the likes of Hartley, Robshaw, Care and Brown for this year's games doesn't necessarily mean much in terms of the RWC squads. They are all players who have been out of the squads before and have proven that they can come back in and perform, and they all bring huge amounts of experience.

I just don't get that Eddie is going to drop them entirely in favour of players with no international experience.

Hartley's position is the most precarious, because he hasn't shown that he's fully back from injury. But it was less than a year ago he was anointed as the RWC Captain.

Robshaw has the most competition, but he's durable, experienced in an otherwise inexperienced group, and has defied pundits' expectations repeatedly throughout his entire career. Mostly by doing 100 minutes' worth of unglamorous work in 80 minutes on the pitch.

With Robson almost certainly out and Youngs still not full fit, it would be utterly daft not to at least have Care in training, given the alternatives are the evergreen Wigglesworth and a bunch of players with about 15 minutes gametime between them.

And Brown is the only actual fullback Eddie has.

The three Quins have all shown form in the latter half of the season. I just can't see him not wanting to take a look at them - even if only to encourage their competition to raise their game.

by king_carlos Thu 13 Jun 2019, 6:54 pm

Rumours of Ashton being dropped would suggest Brown is still in the training squad, Poorfour. I wouldn't be surprised if Brown forces his way into the 31. With Nowell injured I think Daly may revert back to wing with Watson and Brown fighting for the fullback spot.

In terms of the competition from other players Hartley and Robshaw would be the two more understandable ones but then they offer a lot of experience. In terms of personal opinion I'd take Robshaw over Shields everyday of the week as well. At hooker I do really rate Singleton however.

I wouldn't understand leaving Care out for Heinz. Spencer and Wigglesworth are much better options as starters with the Jones game plan were Youngs to get injured. Then if we want a good bench option that is Care over Heinz everyday. It seems Care is missing out on account of failing to nail down a starting shirt. Whilst his kicking has ruled him out as a starter at international level he has been a consistently excellent bench option and impact from the bench has been a key feature of successful sides under Jones tenure.

by Poorfour Thu 13 Jun 2019, 7:48 pm

Care's box kicking at club level has also improved immeasurably this season - he's regularly putting up contestable kicks.

by king_carlos Thu 13 Jun 2019, 8:13 pm

Poorfour wrote:Care's box kicking at club level has also improved immeasurably this season - he's regularly putting up contestable kicks.

I'd be more than happy for him to be given a chance to show it in the warm-ups but it sounds like Heinz will get that chance though. I rate Care highly as a bench option at international level. Just don't think he suits Jones game plan as a starter. Especially when you've got the strong voices of Farrell and/or Ford outside the 9 who England like to play off.

Heinz has been very consistent for Gloucester and a good leader but hasn't done enough to warrant international selection. For starters you've now got Joe Simpson at Kingsholm who most of the Shed are looking forward to seeing pair up with Cipriani and add to their side.

Then you've got the hugely talented Ben Vellacott who has gone the opposite way to Wasps.

Jack Maunder has been capped by England already, offers the control that Jones likes from a 9 and far more room for improvement than Heinz has left.

Heinz is a good Prem player and has been a very astute signing for Gloucester as their squad has improved immeasurably but he's hardly shown the individual ability of Reinach or Faf who have torn up the Prem this season.

by lostinwales Thu 13 Jun 2019, 8:35 pm

Feels like Hartley has hardly played this year. He has, generally, been good for England but time is catching up with him and his current injury history is very poor.

by yappysnap Thu 13 Jun 2019, 9:43 pm

Id love to know how many of Quins tries have come from Cares kicks through. Feels like a hell of a lot.

England kicked too much in the games they didnt win in the 6Ns and failed to change up their gameplan. Previously Care and George were at the heart of the super-subs bench Eng had, EJ would be silly to lose that now.

by king_carlos Thu 13 Jun 2019, 10:15 pm

I could see Lawes being on the bench at full strength due to Kruis being much better as a starter than bench option. Lawes has been brilliant the last two seasons but offers more from the bench than Kruis does. An argument there that England are stronger with Kruis starting and Lawes on the bench despite Lawes arguably showing better form for England.

That debate is helped by Kruis being exceptionally in the Sarries run in.

1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Wilson 7.Curry 8.Vunipola
9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Tuilagi 13.Slade 14.Daly 15.Watson

16.LCD 17.Genge 18.Williams 19.Lawes 20.Underhill 21.Spencer 22.Ford 23.Cokanasiga

That would still have some good impact from the bench. Genge and Cokanasiga as ball carriers. Lawes and Underhill in defence. Ford also offers a tactical difference at 10 if the attack isn't sparking.

Sinckler offered much more impact has a bench option than Williams or Cole can though. George as well was excellent from the bench but he's nailed that starter shirt well and truly now. Even if Hartley were fit it would be a huge call to drop George.

England's power in the back row is worryingly dependent on Billy and Underhill staying fit. Without Billy we obviously lose a huge amount but Curry and Underhill being fit at once adds a lot to the back row depth. If one starts with the other on the bench then England have an option there that can have a big impact on the breakdown in the last quarter.

by Cyril Thu 13 Jun 2019, 11:24 pm

What’s the latest on Launchbury? If fit and on form we’ve probably got the top 4 locks in the NH to choose from.

by king_carlos Fri 14 Jun 2019, 1:52 am

Launchbury is fit I believe but misses out on the matchday squad for me with all available.

4 very strong locks but there's a huge crop of excellent locks in the home nations currently.

Jonny Gray
AWJ
Beard
Ryan
Toner
Henderson
Bierne
Itoje
Lawes
Kruis
Launchbury

That's missing out a test Lion in Richie Gray who is out of favour with Townsend.

Corey Hill has been impressive this season but I'd personally rank him below those players. Similarly for Grant Gilchrist. No derision intended as those are outstanding players to be just below.

On top of all that I could see Sam Skinner having a very good RWC with Scotland. Exeter have developed quite a player and like most forwards at Chiefs he seems to keep improving.

I don't envy selecting the second rows for the next Lions tour.

by yappysnap Sat 15 Jun 2019, 8:26 pm

Everyone think it'll be Farrell at 10 for the big games and Ford on the bench? With Ford starting the lesser games at 10? That's a lot of match time for both fly halves without a third player in there to rotate with.

You can guarantee some big hits and players leading with the shoulder when they see Faz or Ford in front of them, and that's just in training.

I think who ever is the third fly half will get plenty of match time.

by robbo277 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 2:30 pm

yappysnap wrote:Everyone think it'll be Farrell at 10 for the big games and Ford on the bench? With Ford starting the lesser games at 10? That's a lot of match time for both fly halves without a third player in there to rotate with.

You can guarantee some big hits and players leading with the shoulder when they see Faz or Ford in front of them, and that's just in training.

I think who ever is the third fly half will get plenty of match time.

I assume the 3rd fly half will be Slade and he'll play very little rugby at 10.

I can see Farrell starting against Tonga and going to or close to the 80. I'd then have Ford start at 10 against USA with Farrell either on the bench or completely rested. From there, I think it will be Farrell 10, Ford 22 for the rest of the tournament. We have no more midweek games after USA.

The only things that could change that would be Eddie making a tactical switch or injury. A knock would see Slade cover in the interim, while a tournament ender would probably see a call for a specialist 10 (most likely Cipriani, but it's hard to be sure).

by yappysnap Tue 18 Jun 2019, 2:22 am

Agree with that.

By the same token there's talk that Ford could also be the third scrum half option in case of injury, if that was the case then we would have to have another fly half. Or else we could see a situation with Ford at 9 and Slade at 10, that isn't ideal at all.

by maestegmafia Tue 18 Jun 2019, 6:00 am

Considering that Farrell was subbed for Ford who clawed back a draw in the last match do you not think Ford might get more starts now?

by **LondonTiger** Tue 18 Jun 2019, 6:15 am

maestegmafia wrote:Considering that Farrell was subbed for Ford who clawed back a draw in the last match do you not think Ford might get more starts now?

I think Eddie will see that as vindication that Ford on the bench is the right move, coming on against tired defenders.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Jun 2019, 6:19 am

Its possible Ford starts again. They're both good enough and offer different styles.

by maestegmafia Tue 18 Jun 2019, 6:37 am

Personally I always thought that Ford looks the more accomplished flyhalf of the two.

I wonder whether both Eddie Jones and Warren Gatland ave been trying to give their two flyhalves plenty of time in the chair before the RWC.

Ford was consistently selected at flyhalf with Farrell at ten until recently when Ford hasn’t had a start for ages, likewise Wales selected Dan Biggar consistently then swapped him for consistently selecting Anscombe.

It builds strength having two reliable tens in your squad, but both need a season of games to be a really genuine comfortable option.

Come the RWC we will see what the coaches first choices really look like.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 18 Jun 2019, 6:48 am

In an article by Charlie Morgan about Jones' scrum-half selections, he says this:

Telegraph Sport understands that Jones is likely to cycle players in and out of camp so that there are never too many more than 35 training. He has previously voiced his preference for fewer individuals to go through more repetitions, especially in playmaking roles.

Should Willi Heinz of Gloucester pop in, for instance, you would expect Spencer and Robson – fitness permitting – to still be jostling for a single position beneath Youngs.

There's something to be said for not having players hanging around, feeling they can't make their case but I do wonder how that works in practice. If you get cycled out as a player, are you dumped, or kicking your heels at home, waiting to get called back? Are you paid for being named in a wider training squad, or only for the time you are actually in camp?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 18 Jun 2019, 6:58 am

They both offer something different. It of course relies on who else is available too. I cant remember too many occasions where we've had slade Joseph tuilagi and teo available for the midfield at one time.

by maestegmafia Tue 18 Jun 2019, 7:38 am

Rugby Fan wrote:In an article by Charlie Morgan about Jones' scrum-half selections, he says this:

Telegraph Sport understands that Jones is likely to cycle players in and out of camp so that there are never too many more than 35 training. He has previously voiced his preference for fewer individuals to go through more repetitions, especially in playmaking roles.

Should Willi Heinz of Gloucester pop in, for instance, you would expect Spencer and Robson – fitness permitting – to still be jostling for a single position beneath Youngs.

There's something to be said for not having players hanging around, feeling they can't make their case but I do wonder how that works in practice. If you get cycled out as a player, are you dumped, or kicking your heels at home, waiting to get called back? Are you paid for being named in a wider training squad, or only for the time you are actually in camp?

Interesting point. I would imagine that if, by example and not based on any fact, that Eddie Jones had decided that he knows what Ford can do as a player and wants to give Farrell time in the ten shirt to increase the options England have as a squad, that EJ would sit the two players down and have an honest discussion with them about his concept.

I presume that all players in the squad get a certain wage and the match day 23 get. A playing fee on top, plus the relevant win bonuses.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 18 Jun 2019, 7:48 am

Having made Farrell his captain, he will play the big games. I am convinced he will play at 10 and Ford will have to make do with lower tier games and bit part cameos. I feel that Eddie will place more importance on the Japan game where the perception is Farrell had to come on to save Ford.

by maestegmafia Tue 18 Jun 2019, 8:02 am

LondonTiger wrote:Having made Farrell his captain, he will play the big games. I am convinced he will play at 10 and Ford will have to make do with lower tier games and bit part cameos. I feel that Eddie will place more importance on the Japan game where the perception is Farrell had to come on to save Ford.

It’s a difficult situation to maintain, as it was definitely vice versatile against Scotland. Farrell had lost the plot and was lucky not to have been yellow carded.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 18 Jun 2019, 8:21 am

I just feel Eddie has made his decision and Farrell is his man. Arguments can be made for Ford and Cipriani being better, but Eddie will do what he wants. Ford can probably handle the situation that the second FH is likely to find themselves in better than Cips (using Steve Diamond's argument who felt they were both as talented as each other but that Cips will challenge coaches and tell them they are wrong, whereas ickle George will do what he is told).

I just feel that for Ford or Cipriani to get significant gametime, Eddie will have to revert to Farrell at 12. Cannot see him doing that except in an emergency.

by maestegmafia Tue 18 Jun 2019, 8:36 am

LondonTiger wrote: I just feel that for Ford or Cipriani to get significant gametime, Eddie will have to revert to Farrell at 12. Cannot see him doing that except in an emergency.

Because Tuilagi and Teo are the designated 12s?

by **LondonTiger** Tue 18 Jun 2019, 8:44 am

maestegmafia wrote:
LondonTiger wrote: I just feel that for Ford or Cipriani to get significant gametime, Eddie will have to revert to Farrell at 12. Cannot see him doing that except in an emergency.

Because Tuilagi and Teo are the designated 12s?

It seems like he wants one power centre and one ball playing centre and he views them to work better with the power centre at 12. He has changed tack before but just cannot see it happening here. Most likely scenario where we would see Ford/Farrell reinstated at 10/12 is if Manu and Te'o are both injured. That of course could be quite possible.

Eddie has put a big investment in Farrell as skipper and 10. Everything I read suggests that the team view Owen as a leader who they would follow anywhere and are desperate to impress. However outwardly we do not see that as fans.

by maestegmafia Tue 18 Jun 2019, 8:49 am

LondonTiger wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
LondonTiger wrote: I just feel that for Ford or Cipriani to get significant gametime, Eddie will have to revert to Farrell at 12. Cannot see him doing that except in an emergency.

Because Tuilagi and Teo are the designated 12s?

It seems like he wants one power centre and one ball playing centre and he views them to work better with the power centre at 12. He has changed tack before but just cannot see it happening here. Most likely scenario where we would see Ford/Farrell reinstated at 10/12 is if Manu and Te'o are both injured. That of course could be quite possible.

Eddie has put a big investment in Farrell as skipper and 10. Everything I read suggests that the team view Owen as a leader who they would follow anywhere and are desperate to impress. However outwardly we do not see that as fans.

The Hartley era is over then?

by **LondonTiger** Tue 18 Jun 2019, 9:21 am

Rumours that Hartley may not make the squad. He certainly should not make the starting lineup. Hartley and Farrell started the AIs as co-captains, Ford was skipper against Japan and Farrell against Australia. Then add in the fact Hartley has played no rugby since before Christmas and yes I believe his era is over.

by maestegmafia Tue 18 Jun 2019, 9:53 am

LondonTiger wrote:Rumours that Hartley may not make the squad. He certainly should not make the starting lineup. Hartley and Farrell started the AIs as co-captains, Ford was skipper against Japan and Farrell against Australia. Then add in the fact Hartley has played no rugby since before Christmas and yes I believe his era is over.

I imagine that there will be a fair few experienced international players left to the wayside during the next six months. A mix of other talents coming to the fore, as well as older members just not hitting the form they were once acclaimed. Hartley has been on the wain a while, he could well be joined by a few other old favourites as the new wave succeed. Dan Cole, Chris Ashton, Courtney Lewes, Chris Robshaw, Mike Brown, Ben Youngs etc.

England may have a very fresh look about them by next years six nations.

by robbo277 Tue 18 Jun 2019, 10:11 am

Rugby Fan wrote:In an article by Charlie Morgan about Jones' scrum-half selections, he says this:

Telegraph Sport understands that Jones is likely to cycle players in and out of camp so that there are never too many more than 35 training. He has previously voiced his preference for fewer individuals to go through more repetitions, especially in playmaking roles.

Should Willi Heinz of Gloucester pop in, for instance, you would expect Spencer and Robson – fitness permitting – to still be jostling for a single position beneath Youngs.

There's something to be said for not having players hanging around, feeling they can't make their case but I do wonder how that works in practice. If you get cycled out as a player, are you dumped, or kicking your heels at home, waiting to get called back? Are you paid for being named in a wider training squad, or only for the time you are actually in camp?

I assume you'll go back to your club to do your club pre-season? Then when you get the call you've got a limited window to prove yourself?

A different way of doing things, probably pro's and con's both ways. One of the main pro's being that he gets more of a chance to look at people, but I guess the con is getting units together? Unless he's going to do a core 15-20 and cycle players in around them?

by robbo277 Tue 18 Jun 2019, 10:36 am

In other news, France have named their 31 already and 6 reserves.

In terms of balance, they've gone for:
5 props
3 hookers
4 second row
5 back row
3 scrum halves
2 fly halves
4 centres
3 wingers
2 full backs

by Gooseberry Tue 18 Jun 2019, 11:07 am

robbo277 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:In an article by Charlie Morgan about Jones' scrum-half selections, he says this:

Telegraph Sport understands that Jones is likely to cycle players in and out of camp so that there are never too many more than 35 training. He has previously voiced his preference for fewer individuals to go through more repetitions, especially in playmaking roles.

Should Willi Heinz of Gloucester pop in, for instance, you would expect Spencer and Robson – fitness permitting – to still be jostling for a single position beneath Youngs.

There's something to be said for not having players hanging around, feeling they can't make their case but I do wonder how that works in practice. If you get cycled out as a player, are you dumped, or kicking your heels at home, waiting to get called back? Are you paid for being named in a wider training squad, or only for the time you are actually in camp?

I assume you'll go back to your club to do your club pre-season? Then when you get the call you've got a limited window to prove yourself?

A different way of doing things, probably pro's and con's both ways. One of the main pro's being that he gets more of a chance to look at people, but I guess the con is getting units together? Unless he's going to do a core 15-20 and cycle players in around them?

bear in mind that the training squads/EPS have historically been in that low 30's range until the agreed change in 2018 (?) which effectively ended the Saxons but bought the senior EPS up to 45.

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