No Returns

I recently played in a 36 hole open competition (see earlier post) and whilst the conditions were very tough due to the wind and some pretty brutal flag positions I was amazed by the number of no returns.

It was a scratch competition in main though there was a handicap element and I think handicaps ranged from maybe 1 through to 8. There were only maybe 25 competitors but I think I counted upwards of 10 NR's. I shot a soul destroying 92-84 but at no point did I ever consider walking in/not completing either round.

Now I can understand if you've hit two provisionals off the tee and can't find any the walk back would be tough but how likely is that and to be honest I think I still would. I've always felt an NR was a bit of a weak thing to do and only done by people embarrassed by their score and hence by those who care too much about what other people think of them.

I guess in a weekly medal at your own club then if you've not hit a provisional then maybe you wouldn't walk back but is it not a bit disrespectful to do so in an Open organised by another club?

How do other people feel about it? Is it an acceptable excuse that you don't want to hold up the other members of your group and walk back or is it just that you don't want the shame? I tend to hit a provisional ball if there is any doubt about finding it anyway.

Three weeks ago I played in a medal where the wind was so strong, and the course so tough that 55 out of 116 NRed.

I think it's inevitable that people won't go back to reload when their score is already like a phone number.

As far as I'm aware though, hardly anyone walked off the course, most people did finish their round, just maybe not finished all the holes.

I think a lot of people feel that if they're having a mare, but others are doing ok, they don't want to be in the way so rather than reload and amass a large number they nr.

The problem with excessive NRs is that it skews the CSS - which is bad for those who decide to keep playing

i was always taught no matter how bad a score don't NR. Just a matter of principe really if your man enough to gloat and regalethe joys of a good score as we all do then you need to be man enough to stand there and say yep that telephone number of a score is mine too. It always surprises me how many of the same faces return NR's regularly because they know the penalty is no different to hitting ahigh number but the difference is they can claim some feeble excuse like bad luck or didn't want to hold anyone up back on the tee.. I once played in a group where out of 4 of us I was the only one that didn't NR and my score was poor and the other guys said "just NR we can walk in and have a beer and just say we got fed up with waiting on every shot" I duly continued to play out my poor round and felt more comfortable with myself for this than having to give excuse for a no return.

The only time i would cnsider anything as such is a retired hurt and then i'd have to hve a limb hanging off or something

agree. always put a score in. as davie points out it can skew up the css. i think nr's used to be discounted but under the new stableford system they are taken into the calc in some manner. wouldn't be surprised if scores less than 28pts or something were discounted though - does anyone know?
it is always the same people who do it too. i find it an odd mentality. bizarrely at our club, a high percentage seem to be cat 1 players, and also those around 16 -18 hcp. something to do with being extra aware if you are shooting well over par, or par plus one for the 18s?
the thing that i find frankly very rude is when people walk in. fair enough in really really poor weather conditions, but i've had a couple of occasions when i or the second member of our group have been on a score, only for the third member to walk in after nine and completely alter the rhythm of the group by leaving you a two ball in amidst a bunch of threeballs. poor ettiquette in my book. my old club brought in a policy after this practice was becoming rife that anyone walking in would be banned from competitive play for the remainder of the season. step in the right direction as far as i'm concerned.

I once had the other 2 from my 3ball pack it in after 11 (and I'd been 21 points to the turn as well). I had to wait for the next 3ball to come up the 11th at which point 1 of them packed in 3 so we carried on as a modified 3ball. From memory it was about a 2-3 club wind and light rain until just after the turn at which point it got significantly heavier. Finished with 36 points putting through puddles on the last 2-3 holes. Would I have packed in if I'd been something like 12 at the turn? I'd like to think not but...when nothing is working, everything is sliding right, putt pace is all over the place due to waterlogging...I suppose there does come a point where enough is enough. I did think the walk ins that day were a bit premature but several holes later the weather was so grim I might have done it too had I not been on a score.

I ended up posting two NRs down in Bournemouth... but at no point would I have considered walking off the course. An NR is something that doesn't mean you stop playing only that you are unable to complete the round for one reason or another.

Walking off... rude. NR. Sometimes it's just the option you have in front of you.

NR = No Respect

JPX wrote:NR = No Respect

No. NR means losing a ball in a place you didn't expect to do so... and the fact that you're not playing well and don't want to distract others too much gives you a choice of not being disruptive.

It's statements like that which prevent people from behaving in a manner which is appropriate to the others you are playing with.

I prefer not to NR and would normally never do so... But considering the way my playing partner was going in the morning... I didn't want to carry on hacking it around and walking back thus causing delays to the pace of play. In the afternoon I lost one on the 18th. And after the slog I'd had could not face a walk back.

Sometimes a readjustment of attitude provides a deeper understanding of the reasons behind some of these things.

The problem is not enough people take a provisional ball, so end up facing a long walk back to the tee, that's what slows play up.

I don't see the problem with an NR, its a matter of choice, i'd rather not, but sometimes do if i'm not playing well and have lost a ball expectedly or something... i would never walk off the course if physically able to carry on and as long as you carry on marking you card on the remaining holes you still contribute to CSS.

Can't see a problem with it.

an NR is not the same as it was years ago. you can still finish your round and have a handicap reduction or buffer. also the match committee can refuse to put a players handicap up if they feel the player has had too many NR,s or if the score card shows an NR early in the round and no scores filled in for the rest of the round. handicapping is more complex now then 15/20 years ago...thank feck for the club 2000 computer system

Guys, NR's do not affect the CSS. That's a common misconception.

It is however very frustrating for the person that has to check the cards.

PS. we have a guy at my club who, last year, had nearly 40% NR's. He has been spoken to, we are now thinking that anyone that is a multiple repeat offender will have their handicap made inactive - they would then have to put in 3 cards to get a handicap back (that'll stop the b*****d )

GWR-Golfer wrote:Guys, NR's do not affect the CSS. That's a common misconception.

I wasn't aware of that - but how does it work? I can easily see how it would work if someone in a medal just NRs one hole but continues to keep his card for the rest of the round; he can't win the comp but his scores can at least be used for both his own potential handicap adjustment AND the CSS.

However what about the players who walk off after 9, or who maybe NR on 12 and then continue playing to mark their partners card but don't bother with their own for the rest of the round. How can that NOT affect the CSS?

I'm not saying you are wrong, just wondering how it works

Davie - it's very complicated... my mate who is the head of comps at my club spent a long time reading through the CONGU rules and checked the computer results to find that it doesn't affect the CSS.... which we all thought it did.

If you want a fun 8 hours then go to CONGU and download the rules, then lock yourself in a room & don't emerge until you can stand up to being quizzed by 600 members.........

GWR-Golfer wrote:Davie - it's very complicated... my mate who is the head of comps at my club spent a long time reading through the CONGU rules and checked the computer results to find that it doesn't affect the CSS.... which we all thought it did.

If you want a fun 8 hours then go to CONGU and download the rules, then lock yourself in a room & don't emerge until you can stand up to being quizzed by 600 members.........

Unless I missed it the other day (I regularly get p*ssed off at the CSS), you can't download it from CONGU. It's £4.00 and they'll post a print copy - I'm planning a look at our Club's copy sometime.

The only info I can find doesn't mention that NRs are discarded re. CSS calculations. In fact, I'll be p*ssed if they are as that'll be one explanation why the CSS appears to go down so easily and up so rarely i.e. many NRs are a direct result of a tough set of conditions. Dropping them from CSS calculations will skew the data in favour of too low a CSS.

TBH, any golf regulatory body that stipulates that all even index holes must be on one half of the course and all odd indexes on the other is obviously a few clubs short of a full set anyway so I wouldn't be surprised if their handicap calculations don't stand up to scrutiny.

That's how I understand it too, hence "NR = No Respect" - no respect to your fellow competitors who are battling it out for their nett 1 under, only to find the CSS is 1 under due to the muppets who can't be bothered to complete 18 holes!!

we've got a wee order of merit going for our group and to date, one player has nr'd 5 out of 7 rounds, next worst is 3 out of 8 rounds, then 3 out of 10. everyone else has none or one. that is from a group of 18 players. generally our comps have between 150-170 entrants with 30-40 nr's, so its probably a fair representation.
it is interesting to look at the bottom of the club leaderboards and see how regularly the same names appear in the nr column. i guess their argument might be that every so often they make a cameo at the top?!

The distiction needs to be drawn between an NR where someone 'blobs' a hole or two and the other 16/17 hole are scored. This contributes to CSS and can indeed, result in a hc cut or a buffer as well as a rise.

Let's call this an 'NR without giving up'... this is fine in my opinion

The other type is those that blob the 7th hole for instance and don't bother marking their card anymore hence their card is discounted and as JPX said shows a lack of respect for the competition which they have entered and their fellow competitors.

Lets call this an 'NR and give up'... which is not really on in my opinion... "poor form old chap"

The final type is as above but just fook off after 9 and don't even complete the round.

Lets call this the, "I'm a total Kumquat - NR" - which means you're a Kumquat...

If your prepared to enter a comp you should finished it whether you NR or not...

*obviously this doesn't take into account injuries, wives going into sudden labour or 'sharting' while wearing white trousers which are all examples of when it's ok to to leave mid round

rossa, agree with your 3 distinctions. i just can't understand why someone would be a serial nr'er. i can't grasp what mentality someone must have to nr time and time again. are they just not enjoying their golf full stop? or maybe they have an unrealistic level of expectation of their own talent?

Rossa wrote:The distiction needs to be drawn between an NR where someone 'blobs' a hole or two and the other 16/17 hole are scored. This contributes to CSS and can indeed, result in a hc cut or a buffer as well as a rise.

Let's call this an 'NR without giving up'... this is fine in my opinion

The other type is those that blob the 7th hole for instance and don't bother marking their card anymore hence their card is discounted and as JPX said shows a lack of respect for the competition which they have entered and their fellow competitors.

Lets call this an 'NR and give up'... which is not really on in my opinion... "poor form old chap"

The final type is as above but just fook off after 9 and don't even complete the round.

Lets call this the, "I'm a total Kumquat - NR" - which means you're a Kumquat...

If your prepared to enter a comp you should finished it whether you NR or not...

*obviously this doesn't take into account injuries, wives going into sudden labour or 'sharting' while wearing white trousers which are all examples of when it's ok to to leave mid round

I'd say two is a worse offence than three. Clearly all those who oh dear off have just had enough and would rather be at home with their feet up, probably something we've all felt in one round or another. In that case they're not likely to be much fun to chat to, so sodding off home is probably the best thing for them to do. At least they're not clogging up the course like the twos are.

There is a 4th... The slow play NR. When you've been out for 5 hours and have only just managed to reach the 14th there is more than just a slight reason for walking off the course.

I can understand anyone putting in an NR - it just happens. Having to walk back from an unexpectedly lost ball etc when everyone wants to paly quickly and be round 18 holes in 45 minutes!!!!!!!. I have been surprised at pro qualifying tournaments (Open and US Open) when for round 2 several players end up playing alone with a steward making because their Rd 1 partner had a mare and didn't show for Rd2. Off topic but anyone notice that Monty has completed all his rounds recently - qualifying comps when he had no or little chance after Rd1 - and Euro tour rounds when he has just dug in and tried. He gets a lot of bad press but sets an excellent example in this respect. Gives some indication of the strength of mind it takes to win 8 Orders of Merit and numerous tournaments.

*obviously this doesn't take into account injuries, wives going into sudden labour or 'sharting' while wearing white trousers which are all examples of when it's ok to to leave mid round

rossa

while i agree with you ......does it really matter what coulour of trousers you are wearing when said sharting occurs ??

and is it acceptable to carry on if your wearing a nice brown trouser ??

while sharting is the topic. my dads favourite saying on the course is " i could have hit it farther with a stocking full of diarrhea"...always makes me chuckle.

I think a bad case of the two bob bits :run2: is justification for premature evacuation whatever stage you are at in your round. Let's face it; adding to slow play woes by having to wipe your legs down after dropping your guts after each stroke isn't going to exactly endear you to your fellow competitors. One might even call it 'gamesmansh1t'

I would like to point out that I once had the two bobs during an open and I didn't walk off. I went in the trees... evacuated... and then carried on. Except I left my towel in the woods.

navyblueshorts wrote:

GWR-Golfer wrote:Davie - it's very complicated... my mate who is the head of comps at my club spent a long time reading through the CONGU rules and checked the computer results to find that it doesn't affect the CSS.... which we all thought it did.

If you want a fun 8 hours then go to CONGU and download the rules, then lock yourself in a room & don't emerge until you can stand up to being quizzed by 600 members.........

Unless I missed it the other day (I regularly get p*ssed off at the CSS), you can't download it from CONGU. It's £4.00 and they'll post a print copy - I'm planning a look at our Club's copy sometime.

The only info I can find doesn't mention that NRs are discarded re. CSS calculations. In fact, I'll be p*ssed if they are as that'll be one explanation why the CSS appears to go down so easily and up so rarely i.e. many NRs are a direct result of a tough set of conditions. Dropping them from CSS calculations will skew the data in favour of too low a CSS.

TBH, any golf regulatory body that stipulates that all even index holes must be on one half of the course and all odd indexes on the other is obviously a few clubs short of a full set anyway so I wouldn't be surprised if their handicap calculations don't stand up to scrutiny.

Navy - I will admit that I didn't know you had to pay for the download. I guess the club paid for it ---- my mate being scottish wouldn't have

I can assure you that it doesn't take account of an NR ie. when a card is not returned. It makes no difference to the CSS. The comps committee at my club spent a loit of time researching CONGU.

the css calc does not take nr's into its equation?
if that is the case then the calculation is at risk of giving an unrepresentative figure. or does it just discount all the poor scores and look at the good uns?