ICC Cricket World Cup - Part 2

by **LondonTiger** Tue 11 Jun 2019, 12:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Table

New Zealand	5	9	1.591
England	5	8	1.862
Australia	5	8	0.812
India	4	7	1.029
Bangladesh	5	5	-0.27
Sri Lanka	5	4	-1.778
West Indies	5	3	0.272
South Africa	5	3	-0.193
Pakistan	5	3	-1.933
Afghanistan	5	0	-2.089

Pool Fixtures

Thu, May 30
10:30 England vs ~~South Africa~~ (The Oval)

Fri, May 31
10:30 West Indies vs ~~Pakistan~~ (Trent Bridge)

Sat, Jun 1
10:30 New Zealand vs ~~Sri Lanka~~ (Cardiff)
13:30 ~~Afghanistan~~ vs Australia (Bristol)

Sun, Jun 2
10:30 ~~South Africa~~ vs Bangladesh (The Oval)

Mon, Jun 3
10:30 ~~England~~ vs Pakistan (Trent Bridge)

Tue, Jun 4
10:30 ~~Afghanistan~~ vs Sri Lanka (Cardiff)

Wed, Jun 5
10:30 ~~South Africa~~ vs India (Southampton)
13:30 ~~Bangladesh~~ vs New Zealand (The Oval)

Thu, Jun 6
10:30 Australia vs ~~West Indies~~ (Trent Bridge)

Fri, Jun 7
10:30 Pakistan vs Sri Lanka (Bristol)

Sat, Jun 8
10:30 England vs ~~Bangladesh~~ (Cardiff)
13:30 ~~Afghanistan~~ vs New Zealand (Taunton)

Sun, Jun 9
10:30 ~~Australia~~ vs India (The Oval)

Mon, Jun 10
10:30 South Africa vs West Indies (Southampton)

Tue, Jun 11
10:30 Bangladesh vs Sri Lanka (Bristol)

Wed, Jun 12
10:30 Australia vs ~~Pakistan~~ (Taunton)

Thu, Jun 13
10:30 India vs New Zealand (Trent Bridge)

Fri, Jun 14
10:30 England vs ~~West Indies~~ (Southampton)

Sat, Jun 15
10:30 Australia vs ~~Sri Lanka~~ (The Oval)
13:30 ~~Afghanistan~~ vs South Africa (Cardiff)

Sun, Jun 16
10:30 India vs ~~Pakistan~~ (Old Trafford)

Mon, Jun 17
10:30 Bangladesh vs ~~West Indies~~ (Taunton)

Tue, Jun 18
10:30 England vs ~~Afghanistan~~ (Old Trafford)

Wed, Jun 19
10:30 New Zealand vs ~~South Africa~~ (Edgbaston)

Thu, Jun 20
10:30 Australia vs Bangladesh (Trent Bridge)

Fri, Jun 21
10:30 England vs Sri Lanka (Headingley)

Sat, Jun 22
10:30 Afghanistan vs India (Southampton)
13:30 New Zealand vs West Indies (Old Trafford)

Sun, Jun 23
10:30 Pakistan vs South Africa (Lord’s)

Mon, Jun 24
10:30 Afghanistan vs Bangladesh (Southampton)

Tue, Jun 25
10:30 England vs Australia (Lord’s)

Wed, Jun 26
10:30 New Zealand vs Pakistan (Edgbaston)

Thu, Jun 27
10:30 India vs West Indies (Old Trafford)

Fri, Jun 28
10:30 South Africa vs Sri Lanka (Edgbaston)

Sat, Jun 29
10:30 Afghanistan vs Pakistan (Headingley)
13:30 Australia vs New Zealand (Lord’s)

Sun, Jun 30
10:30 England vs India (Edgbaston)

Mon, Jul 1
10:30 Sri Lanka vs West Indies (Riverside Ground)

Tue, Jul 2
10:30 Bangladesh vs India (Edgbaston)

Wed, Jul 3
10:30 England vs New Zealand (Riverside Ground)

Thu, Jul 4
10:30 Afghanistan vs West Indies (Headingley)

Fri, Jul 5
10:30 Bangladesh vs Pakistan (Lord’s)

Sat, Jul 6
10:30 India vs Sri Lanka (Headingley)
13:30 Australia vs South Africa (Old Trafford)

Knock Out Fixtures

To Follow

by Gooseberry Mon 17 Jun 2019, 2:08 pm

Whilkst its not explicitly stated there is nothing in the playing conditions document I can see to to suggest they cant come out to complete a match as they would for tests if a result looks likely within the allocation. It really would be ridiculous if there were only enough time for 19 overs but they just needed 1 run to win.
They can also keep playing beyond the extended time lime if the over rate is slow and conditions allow.

by Gooseberry Mon 17 Jun 2019, 2:11 pm

The Holder and Hetmeyer slapathons surely put Windies in a winning position despite this farce at the end.
First ever runs in ODIs for Thomas and at 8 balls his longest innings...then hes hit his wicket with the back swing....

by Gooseberry Mon 17 Jun 2019, 2:12 pm

Poor from Thomas...why run and keep Bravo off strike.

by Duty281 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 2:20 pm

321/8 in the end. Think I make it 50-50. Small boundaries (Windies hit 11 sixes), a big question mark over the Windies' fifth bowler, and a wicket with not a lot of pace and bounce. That said, scoreboard pressure could play a telling part.

by Gooseberry Mon 17 Jun 2019, 2:28 pm

Bangladesh's ability with the bat a bigger part Duty. Folk just arent making 300+ chases in this world cup. It does seem the West Indies aside from Gayle have retained more motivation, fitness and discipline than Id expected based on the England game. They will chuck some easy runs out but I still put them favourites.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 17 Jun 2019, 2:38 pm

CricViz makes it 73% WI, 2% Tie and 25% Bangladesh from here

by KP_fan Mon 17 Jun 2019, 2:41 pm

Fact: In the tournament so far.....the biggest successful chases have been 245 by a jittery NZ vs BD and 230 by India vs SA

So I don't think this is getting chased
I also think given that there has always a bit in the pitches( for spinners and seamers) or overhead conditions...anything above 275 will get chased in a world cup in Eng

by robbo277 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 3:19 pm

KP_fan wrote:Fact: In the tournament so far.....the biggest successful chases have been 245 by a jittery NZ vs BD and 230 by India vs SA

So I don't think this is getting chased
I also think given that there has always a bit in the pitches( for spinners and seamers) or overhead conditions...anything above 275 will get chased in a world cup in Eng

The stats bear out, but England did manage to get 334-9 batting second against Pakistan to lose by 14. This being despite losing 2 wickets in the opening 10 and a further two by the 22nd over. I don't think it would be impossible to chase 300 in this World Cup, it would just require a very good team to play very well, or a good team to play out of their skins. Bangladesh are just a good team so they'd need an exceptional performance to manage it here.

by KP_fan Mon 17 Jun 2019, 3:30 pm

robbo277 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Fact: In the tournament so far.....the biggest successful chases have been 245 by a jittery NZ vs BD and 230 by India vs SA

So I don't think this is getting chased
I also think given that there has always a bit in the pitches( for spinners and seamers) or overhead conditions...anything above 275 will get chased in a world cup in Eng

The stats bear out, but England did manage to get 334-9 batting second against Pakistan to lose by 14. This being despite losing 2 wickets in the opening 10 and a further two by the 22nd over. I don't think it would be impossible to chase 300 in this World Cup, it would just require a very good team to play very well, or a good team to play out of their skins. Bangladesh are just a good team so they'd need an exceptional performance to manage it here.

I think I wrote yesterday....that in 275+ in these conditions ( and 300+ in sub-continent) the tone and pace of the team chasing is set according to the score they chase.
So if a team chasing 345 falls short by 15 runs doesn't mean it would have chased successful if the target was 330
This means most likely if chasing 330...they would have fallen for 315

by Duty281 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 3:39 pm

81/1 after 11, nearly down to a RRR of 6. Those small boundaries proving to be very telling so far.

by Gooseberry Mon 17 Jun 2019, 4:02 pm

How the heckins is Russell fit to bowl 3 overs and field. I'm beginning to suspect hes a massive drama queen and just wanted extra time in the swimming pool by hamming it up.

Bangladesh making a really good stab at chasing down the total. Still wont take much to turn this around but a spirited show and a game that continues to shift in balance.

by VTR Mon 17 Jun 2019, 4:07 pm

At times like this you can only paraphrase Blackadder. To only bowl short for the fifth time in a row, is exactly the last thing they will be expecting!

by Duty281 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 4:10 pm

VTR wrote:At times like this you can only paraphrase Blackadder. To only bowl short for the fifth time in a row, is exactly the last thing they will be expecting!

Exactly! And that is what is so brilliant about it!

by **LondonTiger** Mon 17 Jun 2019, 4:13 pm

I should not have downloaded the CricViz app, keep checking it. Anyway that fast start has moved Bangladesh from 25% at start of innnings to 65%. WI need a wicket or two (to state the obvious)

by Duty281 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 4:14 pm

Wow, amazing reactions from Cottrell has got the wicket of Tamim out of nowhere. Just as Bangladesh were starting to cruise.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 17 Jun 2019, 4:18 pm

And that wicket brings Bangladesh back down to 52%

by Duty281 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 4:23 pm

The required rate isn't a problem at all, it's just a question of whether Bangladesh can bat another 30 overs for the victory.

Tame dismissal for Mushfiqur. Three down and the Windies on top.

by Gooseberry Mon 17 Jun 2019, 4:26 pm

Well the rate is relevant to their chances of doing that but yes the most likely scenario is that Bangladesh will slow as wickets fall then get themselves in a mess and all out regardless of how limp to WI batting is.
It was a good start and brave positive stuff that gave them a fair sniff but I really dont see them making quite enough

by **LondonTiger** Mon 17 Jun 2019, 4:32 pm

Shakib is in stunning form, but really Bangladesh do not have enough batters in the sort of form needed to chase down a target >300, not unless the old Tamim had returned. Probably too much for Tamim to do on his own.

by Gooseberry Mon 17 Jun 2019, 4:44 pm

A second spell for Russell. They must have a really good sponge in the kit bag.

by Duty281 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 4:44 pm

They bat deep do Bangladesh (down to 9) and Das and Mamudullah have made some decent scores in recent times.

Shakib now survived two half-chances and Russell struggling with his injury. Gayle might need to send a few down.

by Gooseberry Mon 17 Jun 2019, 4:52 pm

Tbh I was expecting 10 from Gayle the way Russell had carried on in the last England game. And at least one of the other bowlers to sit out after all their histrionics. I cant help feeling they've all just watched too much soccer recently

Its certainly still game on

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Mon 17 Jun 2019, 5:02 pm

It is absolutely ludicrous that Russell is allowed a substitute fielder when he is clearly playing the game with previous injuries and is only ever intending to bowl a few overs then go off and allow a better fielder to take his place. The ICC should look into it...oh and also the West Indies over rate here is embarrassing, but because it isn’t Morgan it won’t be mentioned by the ICC or umpires...

by Duty281 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 5:08 pm

Shakib having a good World Cup - 75, 64, 121 and currently 81*.

West Indies need some inspiration from one of their bowlers, otherwise it's going south very quickly.

by Mad for Chelsea Mon 17 Jun 2019, 5:17 pm

That would have been closer had Hope been in the correct position in front of the stumps Very Happy

Agree with Olly about Russell's injury which shouldn't allow him to have a sub, but let's be honest, the use of substitute fielders in international cricket is a bit of a mess, and not something that the ICC seem to care about in any way. TBH I'm not hugely bothered about it, I feel there should be higher priorities.

Such as over-rates Very Happy

I reckon WI should give Gayle a bowl after the drinks break, play on Shakib's ego a bit, and at this stage they really need to try something different and try to buy a wicket.

by Duty281 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 5:20 pm

I'm no body-language expert, but it looks as though the West Indies have surrendered to tame defeat.

by msp83 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 5:30 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Its pretty ridiculous to right a player off for their first ever innings where they faced just 15 balls. It does seem the ire against him is more based on prejudice and wanting to see him fail based on prior opinions over who should have been selected.
Kpf pretty much nails in in pointing out that the Universe Boss of Bosses Dhoni got out for a duck despite being some kind of SAS commando ninja warrior. Jadahav scored at essentially the same rate. He was also looking to put Kholi on strike, something Kholi repayed by misshitting a single and putting him straight back int the firing line against Pakistans best bowler. Straight after the rain break he took the single and got Kholi back on strike who scored then holed out.
Amir was bowling absolutely brilliantly. Pakistan really seemed to have worked out a formula for controlling teams at the end, and held their nerves bowling out a lot of overs of junk spin in the middle to hold their seamers back for it. India had a few big overs there, including smashing the two real part timers, but often let themselves get tied down despite having two of their best batsmen very well set and a comfortable padding of wickets in the bag. Blame that period every bit as much the death overs for India not getting to the sort of total that looked on at one point.
But really as Kpf alluded to that in itself was smart cricket and different to what we saw from the West Indies and others. they backed their bowlers and seemed to know what was enough, balanced the risk. At the death in particular the DLS implications had to be a consideration. Once you're down to the last two overs in what was a pretty high total already its hard to significantly increase the over all run rate; even a 20 run over doesn't impact it greatly. Wickets though can, had they ended up 6 down then Pakistans revised targets would've been a bit more realistically achievable. And looking at what was to come in 6 down could easily have been 7 or 8 and even with another 10-15 runs on the board they would've been in a weaker position overall.

He may well prove to be out of his depth at this level but give the lad a chance and criticise him for what hes really done not anger at him being selected over a favourite. Also see Rohit, India fans are finally begrudgingly accepting hes a good player.

Will come back to today's game, but before that...
Vijay Shankar was selected ahead of Ambati Rayudu in the squad and I don't have a lot of complaints about that. Yes, I was hoping Pant would be in the original squad, but ahead of Dinesh Karthik as the reserve keeper. And I haven't written Shankar off yet either.
But he has a history of freezing in the death overs. He may play with a straight bat and look organized as a batsman. But ODIs have changed dramatically, you need to have the big shots... Shankar has shown in the past in the limited opportunities he got that he can play a rebuilding job reasonably well, in fact it was one such innings, a knock of 46 against NZ that eventually secured his place ahead of Rayudu. But he's not a hitter, he doesn't seem to be a finisher material either. He defenitly is not a limited overs number 6. So if he plays, the team has to work out how to best use him.
And his military mediums can be handy from time to time in certain conditions, but he's nowhere close to even Hardik with the ball. He's more of a batsman who can bowl, and on a good day, can bowl 7 or 8 overs, usually a 3 or 4 overs proposition. At this stage, Kedar Jadhav's low-arm darts are ahead of Vijay's dibbly dobblers in the bowling department. Hopefully his batting will evolve and evolve quickly. He has managed to add half a yard of pace in recent times, so there is scope in that area too. Rahul Dravid rates him highly, and that in itself is good enough to give him a few more opportunities. But the team has to be smart in using him. If they go with Hardik at 4 on a regular basis, Shankar will be a bit of a misfit at 6. Pant is more suited to that role. Vijay is a good insurance against a top order failure, but for quick lower order runs, you need someone like Rishabh.

by msp83 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 5:32 pm

Spirited chase so far from Bangladesh. A wicket or 2 can quickly change things though.

by msp83 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 5:34 pm

At this stage its Bangladesh's game to lose. They have the chase well under control, no need to do anything silly. Just bat normally, there is no RR pressure either. But they shouldn't lose wickets, that's the key.

by msp83 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 5:54 pm

Mature so far from Bangladesh, They need 62 of 84. Again, they shouldn't do anything unnecessarily adventurous. Liton has been chancing his arms a touch, has come off for him so far, but he should just keep it cool, knock the singles around. If these 2 can bat another 7 or 8 overs, Bangladesh should see it through without much drama.

by msp83 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 6:01 pm

Even after they did South Africa in and then refused to fold against England, with the bat, think people have been rather disrespectful of Bangladesh. It is a lineup with solid experience in Tamim, Shakib, Mushfiqur, Mahmudullah and the skipper Mashrafe. Liton and Mosaddek are fine talents and Sarkar is starting to deliver on his promise. Their bowling, particularly the seam bowling department is average with even Mustafizur far from his exciting debut season. But overall, they have been a decent limited overs side, and more than tests or T-20s, their best performances have come more consistently in ODIs. They licking hitting fire power a bit but they do have solid batsmen, they don't have serious quality in their seam bowling department but there is ability and experience in the spin bowling department.

by VTR Mon 17 Jun 2019, 6:01 pm

Yes, this is in the bag for Bangladesh barring them losing their heads. This is the end of the Windies semi final chance, the real outfit has truly turned up in the last couple of games, shambolic and predictable bowling and half fit players who are more interested in looking cool than winning.

by Duty281 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 6:03 pm

Great chase from Bangladesh to end any vestige of hope the West Indies might have had in this competition. Superb attacking batting from Shakib, though he did ride his luck at times. Conversely, Hope eat up too many dot balls during his time in the middle.

Bangladesh might not have the best batting line-up in the world, but when you're up against a woeful, walking-wounded bowling attack, you're always in the game.

by msp83 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 6:04 pm

Liton is done with all that mature stuff and lays into Gabriel, and think that over has settled the chase. Think now they can try and have some funn.

by robbo277 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 6:06 pm

KP_fan wrote:
robbo277 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Fact: In the tournament so far.....the biggest successful chases have been 245 by a jittery NZ vs BD and 230 by India vs SA

So I don't think this is getting chased
I also think given that there has always a bit in the pitches( for spinners and seamers) or overhead conditions...anything above 275 will get chased in a world cup in Eng

The stats bear out, but England did manage to get 334-9 batting second against Pakistan to lose by 14. This being despite losing 2 wickets in the opening 10 and a further two by the 22nd over. I don't think it would be impossible to chase 300 in this World Cup, it would just require a very good team to play very well, or a good team to play out of their skins. Bangladesh are just a good team so they'd need an exceptional performance to manage it here.

I think I wrote yesterday....that in 275+ in these conditions ( and 300+ in sub-continent) the tone and pace of the team chasing is set according to the score they chase.
So if a team chasing 345 falls short by 15 runs doesn't mean it would have chased successful if the target was 330
This means most likely if chasing 330...they would have fallen for 315

I'm not sure I follow the logic here.

If a team chases 350 and loses early wickets trying to get off to a flier, it's going to be harder to make that total. If they have a lower total to aim for, they can be more selective over which balls they attack. That's the very nature of scoreboard pressure.

To take it to the extreme, if you were chasing 400 and got bowled all out for 300, that doesn't mean you couldn't have chased 320-330, or even 350. You can't say for certain you would have, but I don't think that means if the other team had made 300 you'd have been bundled for 200, for instance.

by msp83 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 6:09 pm

What a fine performance from the world's current best all-rounder. Defenitly an early contender for the player of the series along with Rohit Sharma. Couple of hundreds, couple of 50s, and solid and steady bowling performances in all games.

by msp83 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 6:18 pm

Good move from Bangladesh to play Liton ahead of Mohammad Mithun. The former is clearly a more talented and pleasing batsman, but hasn't always shown the maturity to go with. But when he gets it right, he can play knocks like these.

by msp83 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 6:20 pm

Huge win for Bangladesh. If only Mushfiqur had not fluffed up that run-out of Kane Williamson! Even now, they aren't out and today's performance would enhance their NRR if it comes to it.

by Gooseberry Mon 17 Jun 2019, 6:24 pm

Indeed ...I think we all got caught out by this game! I'd predicted a win but not in that way or once WI had set a decent total.
In the end its come to down to a bit more maturity and professionalism from Bangladesh as well as huge performances from two of their big names with the bat, but also a relative unknown.
WI will most likely fall apart now and I suspect finish near the bottom. Had they not messed up against aus it could've been so different and I guess that will be the story of their campaign ...a nearly team

by Gooseberry Mon 17 Jun 2019, 7:03 pm

Does leave Bangladesh as the only team with anything like a realistic chance of making the semis outside the current top 4.
I think any disrespect for them has come more from them being so reliant on spinners and one superstar. And more so it being a seamer friendly tournament. Their quicks are maybe the best they've had but that doesnt say much, and their is a perception they'd be soft to quality pace bowling.
The pitch today maybe helped out, as did WI being a bit limp literally and metaphorically but the predicted collapse didnt come. They really just batted well so hats off to them.

In terms of what Kpf was saying about chasing too big a score I think at times we've seen teams fall into that trap. It's certainly been the case with the west indies, despite one again a top scorer taking stick for batting at a rate that was should have been sufficient to win the game if others were capable of not chucking their wickets away so softly. Blame Gayle and the half fit Russel...as it was they didnt even need to worry about that last 10 overs too much.
Das is an unlikely hero and it's a shame he couldn't get a century.
Gayle...this is what we feared from him. The worst part is they will struggle to drop him whilst needing to find 50 overs of bowling (I'd you can call it that)
We've seen the best and worst of him since his come back.

by KP_fan Mon 17 Jun 2019, 8:57 pm

WI batted very well & then forgot to turn up in the second half Erm

On a more serious note, I think I have wasted by $20 on the wrong dark-horse.....the real star dark-horses are BD ( skin color ref not intended in either case)

shakib's the best No. 3 batsman in this world cup so far ( and that means ahead of Kohli and Root).... and the among best allrounder in all forms of game in this era who does not get the due credit....and from his no. 3 slots keeps coming at you as a batsman regardless of the size of the score.....2 hundreds and 2 fifites in 4 innings clap

BD very fearless when batting and playing almost from Eng's template....their bowling sucks though.

Many WI cricketers don't care for their cricket even a fraction of what their fans do.....and now I think its a mistake to bring mercenary Franchise stars in.

It's a mistake not not play a spinner or two today...and a grave mistake to not bring any two of Bishoo and Peeramul or Narine or even Roston Chase or even old Sulemann would have added value
Fudadin and Chase would have been decent allrounders....instead of show pony Russell....they have so much talent.

India, Pak and Aus....all have to be wary of BD now sitting at 5 points and guaranteed another 2 from Afg game

by KP_fan Mon 17 Jun 2019, 9:13 pm

robbo277 wrote:

I think I wrote yesterday....that in 275+ in these conditions ( and 300+ in sub-continent) the tone and pace of the team chasing is set according to the score they chase.
So if a team chasing 345 falls short by 15 runs doesn't mean it would have chased successful if the target was 330
This means most likely if chasing 330...they would have fallen for 315

I'm not sure I follow the logic here.

If a team chases 350 and loses early wickets trying to get off to a flier, it's going to be harder to make that total. If they have a lower total to aim for, they can be more selective over which balls they attack. That's the very nature of scoreboard pressure.

To take it to the extreme, if you were chasing 400 and got bowled all out for 300, that doesn't mean you couldn't have chased 320-330, or even 350. You can't say for certain you would have, but I don't think that means if the other team had made 300 you'd have been bundled for 200, for instance.

Lets not shift the goal post....you referred to Eng falling short by 15 runs vs Pak
and I explained that in a 300+ chase if a side falls short by 15 ...they would most likely have fallen short by 15 run.......if the target was 15 runs less.

This is almost a phenomenon is large cases where the team batting second scales its chase proportionate to score.

almost naturally they might be 5 runs less at 25 over and 15 runs less at 40 over mark when chasing 315....leaving the same target
This is due to a variety of reasons...
-natural increase in tempo by team bating second
-risk taking shots delayed by a few overs
-the opponent captain tries to sneak in a couple of more easier overs( 6th bowler in the middle when target score is slightly bigger

PS* This phenomenon may not apply when a top side plays a minnow or bottom ranked teams

by guildfordbat Mon 17 Jun 2019, 9:33 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:That would have been closer had Hope been in the correct position in front of the stumps

Agree with Olly about Russell's injury which shouldn't allow him to have a sub, but let's be honest, the use of substitute fielders in international cricket is a bit of a mess, and not something that the ICC seem to care about in any way. TBH I'm not hugely bothered about it, I feel there should be higher priorities.

Such as over-rates

I reckon WI should give Gayle a bowl after the drinks break, play on Shakib's ego a bit, and at this stage they really need to try something different and try to buy a wicket.

See what you did there. Wink

by robbo277 Mon 17 Jun 2019, 10:22 pm

KP_fan wrote:
robbo277 wrote:

I think I wrote yesterday....that in 275+ in these conditions ( and 300+ in sub-continent) the tone and pace of the team chasing is set according to the score they chase.
So if a team chasing 345 falls short by 15 runs doesn't mean it would have chased successful if the target was 330
This means most likely if chasing 330...they would have fallen for 315

I'm not sure I follow the logic here.

If a team chases 350 and loses early wickets trying to get off to a flier, it's going to be harder to make that total. If they have a lower total to aim for, they can be more selective over which balls they attack. That's the very nature of scoreboard pressure.

To take it to the extreme, if you were chasing 400 and got bowled all out for 300, that doesn't mean you couldn't have chased 320-330, or even 350. You can't say for certain you would have, but I don't think that means if the other team had made 300 you'd have been bundled for 200, for instance.

Lets not shift the goal post....you referred to Eng falling short by 15 runs vs Pak
and I explained that in a 300+ chase if a side falls short by 15 ...they would most likely have fallen short by 15 run.......if the target was 15 runs less.

This is almost a phenomenon is large cases where the team batting second scales its chase proportionate to score.

almost naturally they might be 5 runs less at 25 over and 15 runs less at 40 over mark when chasing 315....leaving the same target
This is due to a variety of reasons...
-natural increase in tempo by team bating second
-risk taking shots delayed by a few overs
-the opponent captain tries to sneak in a couple of more easier overs( 6th bowler in the middle when target score is slightly bigger

PS* This phenomenon may not apply when a top side plays a minnow or bottom ranked teams

It's not shifting the goalposts, I'm trying to show how scoreboard pressure operates. If you reduce the scoreboard pressure, you make it easier than the chasing team. If you take 15 from Pakistan's first innings total, I don't think England would have still finished 15 runs short, in fact I would say they would have probably got the win and been slightly more comfortable, e.g. not 9 down and not on the last ball.

Since 1/1/15, England have crossed 300 batting second 13 times. 9 times they've won. The other 4 times when they've lost; their lowest chase has been 349, they've always been a minimum of 8 down (and bowled out once) and their biggest deficit was 15 runs. I honestly believe in all these instances that if England had been chasing 20 fewer runs they would have won these games. I don't think they would have mistimed these chases, as shown by them winning the other 9 games. If they had been more circumspect in the earlier overs and been 5/10 runs behind, they might have kept more wickets in hand which would have helped them get over the line.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 18 Jun 2019, 7:25 am

The way in which WI gave up was pathetic. All credit to Shakib and Das for bringing that about, but the WI attitude was unacceptable. Players who cannot be arsed to run in and catch a ball should be docked their match fee.

by KP_fan Tue 18 Jun 2019, 8:13 am

[quote="robbo277"][quote="KP_fan"]

robbo277 wrote:

It's not shifting the goalposts, I'm trying to show how scoreboard pressure operates. If you reduce the scoreboard pressure, you make it easier than the chasing team. If you take 15 from Pakistan's first innings total, I don't think England would have still finished 15 runs short, in fact I would say they would have probably got the win and been slightly more comfortable, e.g. not 9 down and not on the last ball.

Since 1/1/15, England have crossed 300 batting second 13 times. 9 times they've won. The other 4 times when they've lost; their lowest chase has been 349, they've always been a minimum of 8 down (and bowled out once) and their biggest deficit was 15 runs. I honestly believe in all these instances that if England had been chasing 20 fewer runs they would have won these games. I don't think they would have mistimed these chases, as shown by them winning the other 9 games. If they had been more circumspect in the earlier overs and been 5/10 runs behind, they might have kept more wickets in hand which would have helped them get over the line.

Before using any stats we must mutually agree on the filter.

Bilateral ODIs are only super glorified net practices at worst and low pressure optimize your combo for next CT/World cup in a mildly competitive environment at best.

if we want to analyse " Pressure of Score board" please find

-Games in Champions Trophy ( CT) and/ or World Cup. Only these games can simulate the pressures of a world cup
-and Discard games between significantly uneven teams i.e involving minnows Zim, Ire or old BD ( 10 years back)

by Duty281 Tue 18 Jun 2019, 8:38 am

The problem with saying that you can only look at CT or WC scores to analyse scoreboard pressure is that scores have increased since previous versions of those. No surprise that Bangladesh chased down 320-odd; the only surprise being that such a high score hasn't been chased down already. Expect it to happen again.

And I'm not sure why bilateral ODIs get discarded so easily. Alright, there may be less pressure on teams during them than a World Cup game, but that applies to bowlers and fielders as well as batsmen.

by Duty281 Tue 18 Jun 2019, 8:41 am

KP_fan wrote:WI batted very well & then forgot to turn up in the second half

On a more serious note, I think I have wasted by $20 on the wrong dark-horse.....the real star dark-horses are BD ( skin color ref not intended in either case)

Yeah, well I tried to warn you. Very Happy

West Indies never had any chance in this tournament, what with it being around five years since they last won a bilateral ODI series.

Slightly disagree that the WI batted very well. 321 was about average on that wicket, maybe just a bit less than average. Hope's strike rate of 80 was very poor in the context of the match.

by robbo277 Tue 18 Jun 2019, 8:51 am

I must say with regards to Bangladesh, I put too much stock in their performance against England (where they were thrashed) and probably did them a disservice.

I still think they'll struggle to get into the QFs. They missed out on a possible point against Sri Lanka and have already lost to New Zealand (who they're chasing down) so won't get a chance to take points from them.

They'll probably take 2 from Afghanistan to take their total to 7 points, then they'll need to get 2 results against Pakistan, Australia and India to get to 11 and give themselves a chance. Even then, they'd require one of the top 4 to lose 3 of their next games.

West Indies now need to win their next 4. Although they have Sri Lanka and Afghanistan in here, they also need to play both New Zealand and India. They desperately need to rethink their tactics. They blew away Pakistan and got some quick wickets against Australia with their fast and short bowling plan, but since then they've failed to fire. They need a spin bowling option in there.

Onto today's game, weather forecast is looking decent in Manchester. Chance of a bit of rain in the afternoon still (<20%) and then getting much worse after the scheduled close. Should be enough for a full game, even if DLS has to play a small part.

by KP_fan Tue 18 Jun 2019, 9:02 am

Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:WI batted very well & then forgot to turn up in the second half

On a more serious note, I think I have wasted by $20 on the wrong dark-horse.....the real star dark-horses are BD ( skin color ref not intended in either case)

Yeah, well I tried to warn you. West Indies never had any chance in this tournament, what with it being around five years since they last won a bilateral ODI series.

Slightly disagree that the WI batted very well. 321 was about average on that wicket, maybe just a bit less than average. Hope's strike rate of 80 was very poor in the context of the match.

you are right....they are unreliable crap...and with these "Franchise star mercenaries" even more so Sad

by Sponsored content