ICC Cricket World Cup - Part 3

First topic message reminder :

Table

Australia	8	14	1.00
India	7	11	0.85
New Zealand	8	11	0.57
England	8	10	1.00
Pakistan	8	9	-0.80
Sri Lanka	8	8	-0.93
Bangladesh	7	7	-0.13
South Africa	8	5	-0.08
West Indies	8	3	-0.36
Afghanistan	8	0	-1.42

Remaining Pool Fixtures

Tue, Jul 2 
10:30 Bangladesh vs India (Edgbaston)

Wed, Jul 3 
10:30 England vs New Zealand (Riverside Ground)

Thu, Jul 4 
10:30 Afghanistan vs West Indies (Headingley)

Fri, Jul 5 
10:30 Bangladesh vs Pakistan (Lord’s)

Sat, Jul 6 
10:30 India vs Sri Lanka (Headingley)
13:30 Australia vs South Africa (Old Trafford)




Knock Out Fixtures


To Follow

Just five singles...

Hmm. Will he try another ? Or is that what India want ?

RRR at 11

83 from 7, just under two runs a ball. Rashid off after his over, Archer back on. Genuine wicket taker, need him to step up now.

Need more than two per ball. Won't get 'em in singles.

Are they batting for net run rate? Or just looking to go huge in the last 4?

5 from the Archer over, 78 from 36 required - 13 an over.

Plunkett coming back on.

These two so reluctant to pull the trigger early because they know of India's long tail.

78 off 36 - they have to go for it now, otherwise their chance will disappear.

Plunkett! And Vince with two key catches having his best game of the tournament!

Wicket comes. The pressure had been building. Plunkett has Pandya caught by Vince at long-on.

Slower ball from Plunkett sees Pandya off ...think that's the ball game

Plunkett finishes on 3-55, including the big wicket of Kohli, both in terms of the batsman and the partnership.

71 required off 5. Over 14 runs an over. New man at the crease, Dhoni just over a run a ball. Can't see it happening.

Liam P finishes with 3/55. Was madness to leave him out of the three games England have lost.

Was a terrific effort by Pandya. But the RRR always kept climbing...very hard to chase at over eight from a long way out.

alfie wrote:Liam P finishes with 3/55.  Was madness to leave him out of the three games England have lost.

Was a terrific effort by Pandya. But the RRR always kept climbing...very hard to chase at over eight from a long way out.

I thought they were going too slowly for too long. Both Kohli and Sharma got runs, but finished under a run a ball, in addition with Rahul's 9 ball duck. Pant went at 110, Pandya and Dhoni at 130 - but they were left with too much to do.

62 required from 4. Academic, surely.

Dhoni must be betting on his individual innings...bizarre lack of intent

Imagine how good England could be with Cook and Salt

47th over goes for 5. Bizarre. 57 from 3 required.

Thinking about the 2016 World T20 final. Was it 19 required in the final over? They'd need 3 of those now.

This is all very tame. They're not even giving it a bash. Just sliding to a pretty comprehensive defeat.

England were, rather foolishly, written off in this competition by many, but they're still well in this tournament. They didn't become a bad team overnight; they still have the quality to go all the way. And today they've completely outplayed the new tournament favourites and only unbeaten side left in the comp.

Wonder if this is the XI that England will settle on for the rest of the competition, injuries permitting? Effectively a QF against New Zealand coming up in midweek. Win that and it's on to a semi-final against, most probably, Australia.

Yeah just the margin to decide now.

I was briefly concerned when Pandya took that string of boundaries...but to be honest England have always had the edge in this. After that first ten overs it would have needed a remarkable bit of batting to haul the target in.

Was listening on the radio on the way home, to demonstrate what an arse vaughn is instead of congratulating Bairstow he was busy making snide comments about "not wanting England to win"

Seems India are content to protect their RR rather than push for a miracle the last few overs. Sad.

Ok , never in doubt

But let us not take NZ for granted.

And I can get some sleep at last. Pal Joey too if he's still with us...

Well done England

Duty281 wrote:This is all very tame. They're not even giving it a bash. Just sliding to a pretty comprehensive defeat.

England were, rather foolishly, written off in this competition by many, but they're still well in this tournament. They didn't become a bad team overnight; they still have the quality to go all the way. And today they've completely outplayed the new tournament favourites and only unbeaten side left in the comp.

Wonder if this is the XI that England will settle on for the rest of the competition, injuries permitting? Effectively a QF against New Zealand coming up in midweek. Win that and it's on to a semi-final against, most probably, Australia.

The thing that may stop it being a quarter-final is New Zealand are pretty much safe. Pakistan could get 11 points - NZ's current total, but I think they're cooked on NRR. I haven't done the NRR calculation, but it's pretty much a sure thing I think. So although it's an elimination game for us, NZ might not be playing with knockout intensity.

If England beat NZ to make the semi-finals we'll finish third (12 points to 11). If Australia beat South Africa, they'll top the pool stage and we'll get India (assuming India will have won one of their last two) back at Edgbaston. I'd fancy playing them again.

Yeah absolutely no idea what Dhoni and Jadhav have been doing these past few overs

I like how this tournament is working out:

England beat India. India beat Australia. Australia beat New Zealand. New Zealand beat the West Indies. West Indies beat Pakistan. Pakistan beat South Africa. South Africa beat Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka beat England.

Just Afghanistan letting the circle down!

Duty281 wrote:I like how this tournament is working out:

England beat India. India beat Australia. Australia beat New Zealand. New Zealand beat the West Indies. West Indies beat Pakistan. Pakistan beat South Africa. South Africa beat Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka beat England.

Just Afghanistan letting the circle down!

There's still hope! If Afghanistan beat West Indies you can slot them in there nicely. Not outside the realms of possibility.

alfie wrote:Ok , never in doubt

But let us not take NZ for granted.

And I can get some sleep at last.  Pal Joey too if he's still with us...

Well done England

Yeah... looking at 03:33 bed time.

Odd finish to this one but India also will have a chance to make amends. NZ will be competitive too no doubt but England needed a win like this.

Well done England thoroughly outplaying a strong Indian side.  Special kudos to Jason Roy who along with Bairstow got England off to a fast and solid start.  Ably supported by Root, Stokes and Butler.  Then the bowling and fielding contained the Indian batsmen - especially Woakes, Plunkett and Archer.

So England back with an excellent chance of reaching the semi-finals.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Yeah absolutely no idea what Dhoni and Jadhav have been doing these past few overs

Yeah, a very pedestrian and disappointing ending. Tame as Duty said. It doesn't justify it but I wonder if they have been showing some of their team mates how hacked off they are with only 20 odd runs being scored in the first powerplay.

Pray for Jason Roy’s health folks

Stats on Dhoni in the last 20 overs are awful. He used to be one of the best in the world, now ts no wonder Pandyas coming in above him. But Pandya isnt often going to last 10 overs, let alone 15. India have a problem after the top 3

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Pray for Jason Roy’s health folks

Some of us always do, Olly.

alfie wrote:Brilliant boundary catch Woakes !  Pant gone...but it's Pandya they have to get...

Dhoni isn't too bad either.

I've always been impressed by Woakes' catching since I saw him hold three on the boundary for Warks against Surrey in a limited overs game at Guildford four or five years ago. Another extremely good one today.

Current qualification equation (Pakistan):

If England lose to New Zealand and Pakistan beat Bangladesh, New Zealand and Pakistan will qualify.

So if England beat New Zealand and Pakistan beat Bangladesh, New Zealand and Pakistan will both finish on 11 points.

New Zealand's NRR is 0.572 after 8 games (1 washout). This multiplies out to 4
Pakistan's NRR is 0.792 after 8 games (1 washout). This multiplies out to -5.5

To look at what Pakistan will need to do to overtake New Zealand, I'll look at getting both sides to nil NRR. If NZ lose by more/less, then that would make Pakistan need to do less/more.

To get a NRR of -4, England would have to hit 400 (RR 8) and bowl NZ out for 200 (RR 4). Or, if NZ hit 300 (RR 6), England would have to hit that in 30 overs (RR 10).

Pakistan, to remove their negative, would have to do even more. E.g. hit 400 (RR 8) and bowl Bangladesh out for 125 (RR 2.5). Or if Bangladesh hit 300 (RR 6) Pakistan would have to hit that in 26 overs (RR 11.5).

Unless I've completely misunderstood net run rate, if England beat New Zealand, Pakistan are basically done.

Current qualification equation (Bangladesh):

Bangladesh are out if they lose to India. If they beat India they'll be level with Pakistan on 9.

If England then lose, they have a quarter-final with Pakistan.

If England then win, they'll have the same NRR drama as Pakistan - albeit they have a less severe negative, it would still take some swing.

Current qualification equation (Sri Lanka):

Sri Lanka need a very specific set of results. They need to beat West Indies on Monday, they need India to beat Bangladesh, they need New Zealand to beat England, they need Bangladesh to beat Pakistan and they then need to beat India themselves.

And then they need a huge net run rate swing. England are on 1 which multiplies out to 8. So to get them to 0, New Zealand would have to score 450 and bowl England out for 50. Or they'd need England to hit 300 and NZ to knock those off in 21 overs.

Sri Lanka are on -1.2 with two washouts, so that multiplies out to -6 with two to play. So they need to thrash West Indies tomorrow to give themselves even the most outside of shots, but they're pretty much out due to results this week.

India inevitably beaten....but not discredited...as they batted well under the circumstances to get to 307.

Given that they ran into an Eng that hit all their desired upsides.....a road of a pitch, that completely nullified spin.... batted first and got a few lucky breaks for their top order and put runs on the board...

India should learn from this game and be ready to change the team composition a bit if they run into a concrete-strip like this again.

Have Bhuvi and Jadeja in for shami and Kuldeep...for it doesn't matter who you bowl.....its not bowling but batting winning you the game....blowing is doing a restrictive job on such a pitch.

and with additional batting depth go a bit harder in the first 10 overs then they did today.

Not all pitches will be like this, and not all the times is Indian going to lose the toss and not in each of remaining games will they be caught out on team composition.

It would have been worrying if we were reduced to 60-4 and beaten by 120 runs

KP_fan wrote:India inevitably beaten....but not discredited...as they batted well under the circumstances to get to 307.

Given that they ran into an Eng that hit all their desired upsides.....a road of a pitch,

Absolutely no sense of irony

Actually, I should say if a team got bowled out for 100 in the first innings and the other team chased it down in 10 overs, that would be -8 for the NRR (to then be averaged over all completed games). So that's one way you could see a large swing.

guildfordbat wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Pray for Jason Roy’s health folks

Some of us always do, Olly.

...and maybe a persistent rain storm or plague of locusts at Durham on Wednesday

Gooseberry wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Pray for Jason Roy’s health folks

Some of us always do, Olly.

...and maybe a persistent rain storm or plague of locusts at Durham on Wednesday

To add to the permutations above, a tie or no result would probably see both teams through to the semi-finals. It would take Pakistan to beat Bangladesh by about 600 runs to overtake England's NRR.

robbo277 wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Pray for Jason Roy’s health folks

Some of us always do, Olly.

...and maybe a persistent rain storm or plague of locusts at Durham on Wednesday

To add to the permutations above, a tie or no result would probably see both teams through to the semi-finals. It would take Pakistan to beat Bangladesh by about 600 runs to overtake England's NRR.

Yep. Bangladeshs chances in that circumstance are to win both their games by big margins.

Unfortunately the weather forecast is good. Locusts it is then

robbo277 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:This is all very tame. They're not even giving it a bash. Just sliding to a pretty comprehensive defeat.

England were, rather foolishly, written off in this competition by many, but they're still well in this tournament. They didn't become a bad team overnight; they still have the quality to go all the way. And today they've completely outplayed the new tournament favourites and only unbeaten side left in the comp.

Wonder if this is the XI that England will settle on for the rest of the competition, injuries permitting? Effectively a QF against New Zealand coming up in midweek. Win that and it's on to a semi-final against, most probably, Australia.

The thing that may stop it being a quarter-final is New Zealand are pretty much safe. Pakistan could get 11 points - NZ's current total, but I think they're cooked on NRR. I haven't done the NRR calculation, but it's pretty much a sure thing I think. So although it's an elimination game for us, NZ might not be playing with knockout intensity.

If England beat NZ to make the semi-finals we'll finish third (12 points to 11). If Australia beat South Africa, they'll top the pool stage and we'll get India (assuming India will have won one of their last two) back at Edgbaston. I'd fancy playing them again.

Ah yes, I forgot India only got a point against NZ, not two points. An India/England semi-final does look the most likely, provided England get past NZ on Wednesday.

Duty281 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:This is all very tame. They're not even giving it a bash. Just sliding to a pretty comprehensive defeat.

England were, rather foolishly, written off in this competition by many, but they're still well in this tournament. They didn't become a bad team overnight; they still have the quality to go all the way. And today they've completely outplayed the new tournament favourites and only unbeaten side left in the comp.

Wonder if this is the XI that England will settle on for the rest of the competition, injuries permitting? Effectively a QF against New Zealand coming up in midweek. Win that and it's on to a semi-final against, most probably, Australia.

The thing that may stop it being a quarter-final is New Zealand are pretty much safe. Pakistan could get 11 points - NZ's current total, but I think they're cooked on NRR. I haven't done the NRR calculation, but it's pretty much a sure thing I think. So although it's an elimination game for us, NZ might not be playing with knockout intensity.

If England beat NZ to make the semi-finals we'll finish third (12 points to 11). If Australia beat South Africa, they'll top the pool stage and we'll get India (assuming India will have won one of their last two) back at Edgbaston. I'd fancy playing them again.

Ah yes, I forgot India only got a point against NZ, not two points. An India/England semi-final does look the most likely, provided England get past NZ on Wednesday.

...at Edgbaston

Kohli complaining about the short, 59-yard boundary. Presumably it was lengthened when India batted!

Not sure what the go-slow at the end was all about. Did India not want to give England the satisfaction of getting cheap wickets at the end?

Sides lose momentum when this sort of thing happens. As it is, I think Australia are going to win the whole thing.

Kohli complaining about the short, 59-yard boundary. Presumably it was lengthened when India batted!

Not sure what the go-slow at the end was all about. Did India not want to give England the satisfaction of getting cheap wickets at the end?

Sides lose momentum when this sort of thing happens. As it is, I think Australia are going to win the whole thing.

Gooseberry wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:This is all very tame. They're not even giving it a bash. Just sliding to a pretty comprehensive defeat.

England were, rather foolishly, written off in this competition by many, but they're still well in this tournament. They didn't become a bad team overnight; they still have the quality to go all the way. And today they've completely outplayed the new tournament favourites and only unbeaten side left in the comp.

Wonder if this is the XI that England will settle on for the rest of the competition, injuries permitting? Effectively a QF against New Zealand coming up in midweek. Win that and it's on to a semi-final against, most probably, Australia.

The thing that may stop it being a quarter-final is New Zealand are pretty much safe. Pakistan could get 11 points - NZ's current total, but I think they're cooked on NRR. I haven't done the NRR calculation, but it's pretty much a sure thing I think. So although it's an elimination game for us, NZ might not be playing with knockout intensity.

If England beat NZ to make the semi-finals we'll finish third (12 points to 11). If Australia beat South Africa, they'll top the pool stage and we'll get India (assuming India will have won one of their last two) back at Edgbaston. I'd fancy playing them again.

Ah yes, I forgot India only got a point against NZ, not two points. An India/England semi-final does look the most likely, provided England get past NZ on Wednesday.

...at Edgbaston

No better place! England seem to play their best cricket at Edgbaston, as exemplified today.

Great to get the win. Everything seemed to fall for England today, though did help themselves by getting the selection correct. Don't care who/what/where we play in the semi final, as getting there wasn't looking likely before today, will just be happy if they can make it

sirfredperry wrote:Kohli complaining about the short, 59-yard boundary. Presumably it was lengthened when India batted.

Did you not see them move to the MCG for the second dig Fred?

If Morgan had made such comments I’m sure KP_F would be calling him a weak captain...but as it’s Virat it’s probably the ECB’s fault or something

The Conspiracy Theory floating around on social media that India deliberately delayed it's charge and slowed down again in last 6 overs because:
-Ind wanted it's bitter rival Pak knocked off
-BCCI had accepted a request for favor from ECB

off-course those are ludicrous rumors....and hardly anyone will take them seriously.


However there is merit in exaggerated home support facilitated for the struggling home side:

-as Kohli alluded to today...that it was a strange coincidence that one boundary came in to be so short that it was 55 meters.
( an it seems Eng were aware of and came prepared for maximizing this boundary)

-as we all noted that general a spinning venue turned into a cemented road strip

-as I noted earlier by "coincidence" Eng's games vs Afg and BD were in small grounds, cement strips that nullified their spinners.

However teams do use home advantage but all of this does make the tag of Eng being a one dimensional team stronger.
No one will be surprised if for their last game against NZ again sees a cement strip and one of the boundary some-what shortened .
However Oppositions will be prepared & toss still remains random.

I don't buy into any of that. If that was the case then we'd have seen similar roads for the Sri Lanka and Aus games. Why risk any defeats, and only start altering boundaries /pitches when it was absolutely last chance to stay in the tournament

VTR wrote:I don't buy into any of that. If that was the case then we'd have seen similar roads for the Sri Lanka and Aus games. Why risk any defeats, and only start altering boundaries /pitches when it was absolutely last chance to stay in the tournament

They realization of their limitations dawned upon them after those Lanka and Aus pitches,.....
and hence under fear of elimination of home team, such radical facilitation were managed.....& technically they are not illegal in my view.

How do you explain the co editions in the games they lost?
You seem awfully confused about how long it takes to prepare a pitch and how long in advance the specific ones to be used are picked.
And around how both teams also get to bat on the same one. And that tosses cant be fixed.
And Dohnis record in recent years scoring in the closing overs. And Jadavs ability to score at all. And Pandyas ability to bat 10 overs at any pace.
Memories of Chawla getting murdered once England had got sight of him last summer too.
I'm wondering what the conspiracy theory is about the games England lost.

Pakistan a better team? If that's really what Indian fans think then they should be embarrassed frankly.

Surely the BCCICC should be fixing things to get Pakistan in the final with India instead of NZ anyway?

Maybe India "the best team in the world" just need to learn to adapt their game. Or does that only apply when critisizing England?

I thought the ICC was responsible for the pitches? Otherwise we would have had pitches tailored for us throughout.

The pitch today was a new pitch, I know the one they used at Edgbaston last time turned, but this was a new pitch and we’ve had quite a bit of sun recently which would have helped bake the surface.

Still, you get some pitches that go for you and some pitches that don’t work for you. It averages out over such a long tournament. It’s how you capitalise on the pitches you like and how you adapt to the ones you don’t.

England capitalised well today. Respected the opening bowlers, punished the change bowlers and had enough wickets to have a go at the last 10. India left a bit too much to do in the last 10 (requiring 104 when teams have only got 100 in the last 10 to win twice in history) but it was odd to see them finish 30 runs short with 5 wickets in hand. They built for a grand stand finished and then just nudged it around.

KP_fan wrote:-as Kohli alluded to today...that it was a strange coincidence that one boundary came in to be so short that it was 55 meters.
( an it seems Eng were aware of and came prepared for maximizing this boundary)

-as I noted earlier by "coincidence" Eng's games vs Afg and BD were  in small grounds, cement strips that nullified their spinners.

.

You mean they just used their eyes? The boundary wasn’t hidden, India could have just seen the boundary was 59m!

England played Afghanistan at Old Trafford, not a small ground, and Bangladesh at Cardiff, which is notoriously massive square. The conspiracy theories are grating after a while.

England got some luck early, with some edges from Bairstow and the Roy non-review but from that point they thoroughly outplayed India. It happens, England are a very good side. India are still my favourites to win the WC.

Gooseberry wrote:

Maybe India "the best team in the world" just need to learn to adapt their game. Or does that only apply when critisizing England?

Who calls Ind the best team in the world. I hope you  are not alluding to me for they were No. 4 on my pre-tournament list as you can check in first part of this thread.

My first two reports  on the game ( one at half time & the other at the end of game) were critical of India that:
-they read the pitch too late
-& hence they did not bring players in that would have given them more control with ball i.e bhuvi and Jadeja and more depth with batting
-they left the acceleration and charge too late

BUT every situation has 2 sides and my perspective on the English side:

-Its increasingly clear that everyone including their own board & media have figured that Morgans' is a one dimensional side that can perform when many sets of conditions fall into place at same time such as ...... cement strip, small boundaries, devoid any assistance to bowlers,,win the toss
-that they were mentally low and at risk of elimination
-and hence home tried to facilitate as many as they could...including Giles declaring " best pitch of the tournament for Eng" a few days in advance.

Now home teams do get their preferences given, so it's not illegal...and India has done so a lot....and NZ attempted in 1992... But it comes with the folly of:

a- a Tag of one dimensional team ( or FTB or HTB)

b- It can go horribly wrong as it did for India in 1996 world cup semi-final ( Kolkata vs SL) and 1987 semi final ( vs Eng) because they lost toss both times.
And the Opposition has read the script and come prepared.