ICC Cricket World Cup - Part 4

First topic message reminder :

Yes, England expected to be unchanged. Long boundaries apparently, which will suit England's excellent running ability!

If there were a decent replacement in the wings, I think Rashid's place would be under severe threat. He's got figures of 7/403 from 69 overs in the World Cup so far, which is hardly illuminating stuff.

Julius

I think if you’re the Bangladesh captain you have to forget about Pakistan. If you win the toss you look at the pitch and you make a decision you can justify on the pitch. As they can’t qualify and therefore don’t have to consider their own equations, they should just treat it as any other ODI and try to win it based on the pitch. This will probably mean bat first given how the tournament has gone and end Pakistan’s semi final hopes.

You could argue that choosing to bat first regardless of the pitch would be the best way to win the game because it would deflate Pakistan that there hopes were over before a ball was even bowled, but I’m not sure whether that would be good enough justification for me.

But in the spirit of cricket, they shouldn’t favour New Zealand qualifying or Pakistan qualifying. They should look at the match as an isolated incident and pick the best strategy for winning that match and follow that, whomever that helps.

Lads I hate to tell you whatever Bangladesh or Pakistan do at the toss doesn’t matter because Pakistan aren’t getting through in the real world

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Lads I hate to tell you whatever Bangladesh or Pakistan do at the toss doesn’t matter because Pakistan aren’t getting through in the real world

Doesn't matter what anyone does, because it's coming home.

Winning the toss ( and batting first) is proving to be huge advantage in this world cup.....given that little grass or moisture is left on the pitches.

And the game is gone / finished if there are 300 runs to be chased...actually in my view 270 is the threshold.
The few chases have been of 230-240ish totals ( against SA, NZ, WI and BD)


There is only one point of interest left in the remaining games......who will top the group

In the semis & finals, the team that shows skills to  win even when losing the toss and chasing will stand out.

And for that all teams need to find ways of restricting the opposition to 250ish if they bowl first.

I think the team finishing higher in the group should automatically win the toss in the semi finals. There's no advantage to finishing 1st vs 4th

I also noted a few days back that I thought NZ have been very lucky this tournament, and I still think they are - basically lost to all the good sides, but are going through because the game against India got washed out.

Also were a yard or two away from losing to the Windies, a Mushfiqur brain fade away from losing to Bangladesh (a village keeper would've been disappointed to muck that run out up) and a non review/not given out caught behind of Williamson off Tahir away from losing to South Africa. Very much had to rub of the green, and for me easily the weakest of the final four, to even get a competitive 250 it seems they need Williamson to get a hundred

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I also noted a few days back that I thought NZ have been very lucky this tournament, and I still think they are - basically lost to all the good sides, but are going through because the game against India got washed out.

Also were a yard or two away from losing to the Windies, a Mushfiqur brain fade away from losing to Bangladesh (a village keeper would've been disappointed to muck that run out up) and a non review/not given out caught behind of Williamson off Tahir away from losing to South Africa. Very much had to rub of the green, and for me easily the weakest of the final four, to even get a competitive 250 it seems they need Williamson to get a hundred

Yes but keep in mind, Grasshopper, that several sides have won Football World Cups over the years with that sort of start.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/27114810/jonny-bairstow-jason-roy-union-moves-very-special-territory

Good article here on the Roy/Bairstow opening partnership - amazing to think 18 months ago there was a very real debate about who should be opening (Hales in the discussion), and how these two have grasped the opportunity and run away with it. Also how important Roy coming back for these last two games has obviously been, not only to the side but to Bairstow also

The ultimate winning whilst just about doing enough has to be Portugal at Euro 2016. Absolute rubbish for five matches, but somehow scraping through and then winning the semi final and final in less than dominant fashion. Did they care? Of course not

Olly's criticism of NZ has some truth : but I suppose you could also say that England has lost to two of the other three "good" sides (plus Sri Lanka) and has been fortunate not to lose any points to wash outs...
I agree NZ don't look as strong as the other three finalists. The batting does depend a lot on Williamson (neither Guptill nor Taylor are firing at this event ; and even having quite a few useful bits and pieces players just doesn't make them into a good batting team) Their bowling - when they're all fit - is pretty good though ; and as guildford points out anything can happen on a day. If they manage to roll one of the other sides cheaply...
In any case they won those five games , and weren't hammered by anyone until this last (basically dead) match. So they've earned their spot. Pakistan may reasonably claim to have been a little unlucky , perhaps : but they have been just too (typically) inconsistent - and really would have lost to Afghanistan but for Gulbadin's brain fade.
Reckon we have the right top four.

Incidentally , while I have put West Indies down to win in the tipping contest , I wouldn't be surprised to see the Afghans turn them over today...

How long have South Africa been so bad at cricket (the one day game at least) - or is this just a blip?

Gayle gone early - possibly the last time we see him bat in international cricket? I reckon Afghanistan will win this one - they're probably more motivated for this contest than the Windies, who seem to have been on their holidays for quite a while now.

Agree we've got the right top four, which also happens to be the top four that looked obvious to most from the start of the second week of the competition! NZ pack less unpredictability and razzmatazz than the Pakistanis, so I really can't see them turning over Australia (or India).

It's all looking set for England now. They've got the blips out of the way. They've found their strongest XI. The seam bowling is looking exceptional. They're hitting form at the right time. The openers are back to scoring heavily again. They've landed a plum semi-final at a ground they love.

Really, England, if you don't do it now you never, ever will!

I think SA were ranked third in the world coming into this tournament, and looked to have a good bowling lineup for the conditions, so a lot of people had them down as possible semi finalists. Obviously the reality is they have been utter rubbish, with the batting seemingly all out of form at the same time

Talking of rubbish, Gayle at this tournament, he has done nothing. No way the Windies should select him again, the right approach after this tournament is to rebuild for the next one. Reality is though if he says he wants to play, they will pick him

VTR wrote:I think the team finishing higher in the group should automatically win the toss in the semi finals. There's no advantage to finishing 1st vs 4th

Really like this idea actually.

robbo277 wrote:

VTR wrote:I think the team finishing higher in the group should automatically win the toss in the semi finals. There's no advantage to finishing 1st vs 4th

Really like this idea actually.

Winning the toss has been quite important as batting first has definitely been the better option. So finishing higher in the table than the other semi-finalists can quite easily be a consequence of winning the toss against them.

You will then get the double whammy if you then gave them automatic win of the toss in the semis too

Toss creates a huge skew and of the teams in the semis

-NZ has lost their last 2 chases dismissed for less than 200
-Eng has lost their last 2 chases dismissed for 210 & 220ish
-Ind and Aus have lost one chase scoring 300+

And it appears semis & finals could be a toss lottery.
what could be done to bring balance
1-leave more assistance for seam bowlers on the pitch......so if you win the toss & avoid pressure of chase.....then show skills in handling seam movement at-least when batting first.

OR
2- Create a D/L offset for team chasing.....for eg. a 300 score made first should be "corrected" to a 260 target for team chasing

If the toss is that big, then that's an issue in itself. But if you are giving an advantage away, should it be at random or a team that has earned it?

It is a problem that the pitches are changing so much during the course of a game that the toss of a coin becomes so important.

Anything that reduces the impact performance has on result and increases the amount of chance involved, has to be looked at.

You want to aim for the scenario where the pitch is identical for both sides. Its impossible to achieve, but should be the aim

Afro wrote:It is a problem that the pitches are changing so much during the course of a game that the toss of a coin becomes so important.

In some games, they've even been moving boundaries and laying down concrete in the middle of games!

That's what you get for letting the ICC take over pitch preparation

Most years , "English" pitches would either seam early or be roads throughout...but then we'd all be moaning about 370 plays 340 each match...

I do hope the pitches for the finals are a bit more " even" over the day so the toss isn't too much of a factor. Fingers crossed.

robbo277 wrote:If the toss is that big, then that's an issue in itself. But if you are giving an advantage away, should it be at random or a team that has earned it?

-In a test series I have proposed that the visiting captain gets to decide whether to bat or field first. That would keep the home team more honest in preparing the pitch.

-The same could apply in bilateral ODIs.

-In an event as BIG as the world cup and once in 4 years.....randomness should be limited to giving one advantage ( or a few) to the winner of toss...... and not turning the toss into a binary lottery.

So if pitches have some decent movement for seamers than the team winning toss has the choice between¨
a) Do I bat first and risk losing early wickets in the first 20 to 25 overs...which will limit my score

OR b) Do I overcome seaming conditions to earn the assurance /comfort of runs on board

alfie wrote:That's what you get for letting the ICC take over pitch preparation

Most years , "English" pitches would either seam early or be roads throughout...but then we'd all be moaning about 370 plays 340 each match...

I do hope the pitches for the finals are a bit more " even" over the day so the toss isn't too much of a factor. Fingers crossed.

Pitch used in the Aus-Eng pitch  was a good template for a pitch
Had Eng bowled well at the start...they should have restricted Aus to 250-260 on that pitch
and Had they been chasing 250....they would not have collapsed for 220.....but would have gotten much closer or even won scoring 250 in a chase
As was the SA-Ind pitch.......where had SA scored 250-260.....they might have won by 5 to 10 runs

Afro wrote:It is a problem that the pitches are changing so much during the course of a game that the toss of a coin becomes so important.

Anything that reduces the impact performance has on result and increases the amount of chance involved, has to be looked at.

You want to aim for the scenario where the pitch is identical for both sides. Its impossible to achieve, but should be the aim

I'd be in favour of splitting the innings up, maybe a first innings of twenty overs each and a second of thirty continuing from where the first innings ended. The score after 20 could be used in the event of the game being rained off.

Windies have done enough to have this game won, methinks

Galted wrote: The score after 20 could be used in the event of the game being rained off.

Tricky - in the scenario of team 1 getting 150/1 after 20 overs and team 2 getting 151/9 from theirs, who wins, based on it ultimately being a 50 over game. You'd still need to bring DL into the equation I guess

If the toss is so critical then the toss should be scrapped and the weaker side (combination of rankings and current position in world cup table) gets to choose whether to bat first or field.

However in practice it is not going to be clear to begin with whether such a one-sided advantage exists.

No name Bertie wrote:If the toss is so critical then the toss should be scrapped and the weaker side (combination of rankings and current position in world cup table) gets to choose whether to bat first or field.

However in practice it is not going to be clear to begin with whether such a one-sided advantage exists.

That's essentially a handicapping system and not the route to go IMO. It should be a level playing field and all teams treated the same, so that ability plays out, rather than giving a perceived weaker side a leg up

I hope Afghanistan can get this, but doubt that they will chase over 300. They started a bit over-whelmed and in poor form, but have really proved their worth in the competition by their very competitive matches against India and Pakistan, so it would be encouraging to actually take a win.

Then again, the Windies have been unlucky not to take 1 or 2 more wins themselves - failed by a couple of feet to beat NZ.

West Indies vs Afghanistan match is looking to be one of the most interesting matches. 18 year old Ikram Ali Khil, who is also the Afghani wicket-keeper, is close to beating a world cup record held by Tendulkar (highest score by an 18 year old batsman). The required run-rate is now over 8 but they have 8 wickets in hand.

Run rates crewpingbaway from them and it looks like most of the west indies players figured they might need to put some effort in to prolong their careers.

Except Gayle of course who is an absolute disgrace. I pray this is last game and hes remembered as the fat old man who couldn't be bothered.

Steady loss of wickets following Ikram's lbw means this match has fairly quickly run away from Afghanistan: now 230 - 6 and a required run rate of over 10/ over.

They just can't keep up the batting. Progress is nice to see, they're getting there

Good little game, I like the Afghans. Hope to see much more of them

Good to see a tail ender try for the miracle.
23 runs is pretty respectable, but says a lot about how much then west Indies have declined as the tournaments progressed.
If Gayle had russels guts and pride in his shirt it might've been different for them.

Afghanistan didn't disgrace themselves at this World Cup and finishing with a 100% loss record seems harsh. They were quite close to victory in four of their games and should have beaten Pakistan at the very least. WI had the expected dismal campaign with the usual poor attitude that is now expected of them.

Tomorrow is Pakistan/Bangladesh. Let's hope Pakistan bat first and chase the impossible dream!

Let's hope Bangladesh bat first so we can stop hearing about 1992

Pakistan win the toss and bat first! 450+ to make the game semi-interesting. Sadly we're playing at Lord's, not Nottingham.

Duty281 wrote:Pakistan win the toss and bat first! 450+ to make the game semi-interesting. Sadly we're playing at Lord's, not Nottingham.

Can't Pakistan just ask them to make a 30 yard boundary like England did at Edgbaston?

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Pakistan win the toss and bat first! 450+ to make the game semi-interesting. Sadly we're playing at Lord's, not Nottingham.

Can't Pakistan just ask them to make a 30 yard boundary like England did at Edgbaston?

Alas, Pakistan are a team based on outstanding morals and integrity. They wouldn't dream of such a thing!

If it were the other way round it wouldnt be beyond them to help a friend out of a tough SPOT.

Pakistan vs Bangladesh can be seen as an event in its own right - playing out to an audience in Pakistan and Bangladesh as well as their respective expat populations.  

Bangladesh following the war that led to partition of the Indian subcontinent into Pakistan and India, was part of Pakistan as "East Pakistan".   The "Bangladeshis" had to fight for their independence from (Western) Pakistan - and this would clearly form an important cultural divide between the two countries and "peoples".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide

No name Bertie wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide

Good morning, guys

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide

Good morning, guys

Morning, Flipper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Torso_Murderer

Galted wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide

Good morning, guys

Morning, Flipper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Torso_Murderer

Morning Galts. You're right, Pakistan aren't playing at a good enough pace and you've made a good analogy there.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

Galted wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide

Good morning, guys

Morning, Flipper.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Torso_Murderer

Morning Galts. You're right, Pakistan aren't playing at a good enough pace and you've made a good analogy there.

Thanks for noticing, I pride myself on my analytical and analogical abilities.

Fakhar Zaman has been exposed as a very mediocre batsman. Averages 250 vs Zimbabwe and averages 34 against everyone else. Flat track bully vs minnows.

Pakistan are 64-1 from 14. Are they just looking to stay in for 30 and then play a T20 innings after? 64-1 could become 120-130, then look to blast 200 off the last 20? Couldn't imagine that would be anywhere near enough, they'd have to bowl Bangladesh out for 12.

Odd powerplay for Pakistan. Allowed the dots to build up and then lost a wicket trying to hit out.

Looks like Pakistan aren't even bothered about chasing the impossible dream - they just want to win it in the conventional fashion. Shame.

No name Bertie wrote:Pakistan vs Bangladesh can be seen as an event in its own right - playing out to an audience in Pakistan and Bangladesh as well as their respective expat populations.  

Bangladesh following the war that led to partition of the Indian subcontinent into Pakistan and India, was part of Pakistan as "East Pakistan".   The "Bangladeshis" had to fight for their independence from (Western) Pakistan - and this would clearly form an important cultural divide between the two countries and "peoples".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide

What are your thoughts on the hutu and tutsi divide?