ICC Cricket World Cup - Part 4

by Duty281 Tue 02 Jul 2019, 9:02 pm

First topic message reminder :

Yes, England expected to be unchanged. Long boundaries apparently, which will suit England's excellent running ability!

If there were a decent replacement in the wings, I think Rashid's place would be under severe threat. He's got figures of 7/403 from 69 overs in the World Cup so far, which is hardly illuminating stuff.

by Duty281 Sat 06 Jul 2019, 11:36 pm

No name Bertie wrote:It has been strange how the team batting second seems to have been at a disadvantage in this tournament - is it something real or just a very low probability statistical anomaly?

The way things are - it seems to me we have:
Batting first: Batting Second
India ---------- NZ .................... India strong favorite
NZ -------------India ................. India weak favorite
Australia ------ England ............ Australia favorite
England ------- Australia .......... England weak favorite

With England although they have shown remarkable form against India and NZ, I have a gut feeling they are not mentally tough and can wilt when the pressure is high. India and Australia seem to be tougher sides mentally. This is only my gut feeling - and it could just be indigestion.

England played their best cricket of the tournament so far when they were one loss away from the exit door and the pressure was suffocating.

And with some rain around, possibly, for the semi-finals, the 'bat first factor' could be evened out by the possibility of DLS coming into play (which seems to favour chasing sides).

by VTR Sun 07 Jul 2019, 6:21 am

You can see why houses get burned down when people convince themselves that a guy scoring 42 off 31 balls is solely to blame for a defeat. Of course he was supposed to come in and smack 80 off 31, why didn't he think of that

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Sun 07 Jul 2019, 6:53 am

Duty281 wrote:
subhranshu.kumar.5 wrote:India and Australia were no doubt the best two teams in this world cup. No doubt England won their last game and were gifted by Dhoni the game before.

I heard Australia has not defeated England at Edgbaston since 1993, but also heard the England has not defeated Australia at WC since 1992.

Again my bet on India and Australia final.

I don't see a clear stand-out between India/Australia/England, presently. In the group stages when the three heavyweights played one another - England outplayed India. India outplayed Australia. Australia outplayed England. All three were comprehensive victories. Saying that Dhoni gifted England a game is nonsensical - India were just beaten by the better team on the day and at no stage did it look like they were going to win.

England may not have beaten Australia at a WC since 1992, but that has little relevance to Thursday's encounter.

England didn't outplayed India. They both were on the same mark at the end of 40 overs. Again England never threatened India with a defeat. They were not able to bowl out mighty Dhoni and weak Jadav even. If you go and look at commentry on cricinfo, you will find out that Dhoni never tried to go for big overs, rather he was happy with 6-8 run a over. And India lost that match by 31 runs with 5 wickets to spare.

The only team that scared India with defeat was Afghanistan. Even mighty England could not bowl them out.

Looking at Australia, if we leave the defeat against India, they were well on charging every opposition. Even in the last game they were well cruising for victory and fell short by 10 runs only against a good SA bowling.

England on the other hand faced defeat against two weakest opponents as compared to English batting.(England came in this WC as the best team of all) They failed to chase even 230 odd run against a weak Sri Lanka, outplayed by a margin against comparatively weak(look at last 10 games between them) Australia and failed to cross the line against unpredictable Pakistan even after a brilliant start.

My bet on India and Australia final with 50% chance of winning the trophy to both the teams.

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Sun 07 Jul 2019, 7:02 am

VTR wrote:You can see why houses get burned down when people convince themselves that a guy scoring 42 off 31 balls is solely to blame for a defeat. Of course he was supposed to come in and smack 80 off 31, why didn't he think of that

Man be realistic.

Every player has a role according to the batting position. Looking at a man who scored 48 ball 84 two months back only, it is expected from him to take the team home when he is on the crease and the target is 110 from 66 balls. He hit for a six and a four in the last over and that managed to get him a 120 strike rate, else for the last 10 overs he and Jadav were striking at run a ball. Again they were not out at the end of the game.

If you have seen yesterday's game between Australia and SA, the equation was quite similar and every player after 5th wicket were going for a win, by trying to go out of the park.

In the last 10 overs in that match Dhoni and Jadav came up with ony 5-6 boundaries that include only one six that too came in the last over.

We never want a 31 ball 80 from him, but a 40 ball 60 would have done the damage, of which he is capable enough. Had India lost that match with 50 odd runs with Dhoni getting out by trying to go out of the park we would have been more than happy.

You can't weep on failures when you haven't tried for success.

by KP_fan Sun 07 Jul 2019, 7:30 am

Hi Subhranshu....I don't think India was realistically winning that game against Eng...because they kept losing wickets Kohli and Sharma and Pant and Pandya

and once Pandya was gone that was the end of realistic hope...going at 12 and upto 14-15RPO ain't possible....not for Dhoni, not for others.

And the pitch has started gripping and Eng had bowlers who could hit 145+ and then bowl disguised 115 kph slower ones.......did execute their craft very well & hence were almost impossible to pick and clobber.

We could have gotten another 10 to 12 runs closer had Dhoni / jadhav played a few more shots.... but in the process we could have been bowled out 30 runs shorter....you know the batting beyond that pair was NIL
So Dhoni played it right .....should NRR ever became a criteria for India.

You can give Eng credit for defending well....once they go into that situation.
But the legal manipulations they did to try to give themselves a chance to get into that positions exposed that they are an afraid side & one that's lost confidence of winning in all conditions / situations

by **LondonTiger** Sun 07 Jul 2019, 7:31 am

Duty281 wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:It has been strange how the team batting second seems to have been at a disadvantage in this tournament - is it something real or just a very low probability statistical anomaly?

The way things are - it seems to me we have:
Batting first: Batting Second
India ---------- NZ .................... India strong favorite
NZ -------------India ................. India weak favorite
Australia ------ England ............ Australia favorite
England ------- Australia .......... England weak favorite

With England although they have shown remarkable form against India and NZ, I have a gut feeling they are not mentally tough and can wilt when the pressure is high. India and Australia seem to be tougher sides mentally. This is only my gut feeling - and it could just be indigestion.

England played their best cricket of the tournament so far when they were one loss away from the exit door and the pressure was suffocating.

And with some rain around, possibly, for the semi-finals, the 'bat first factor' could be evened out by the possibility of DLS coming into play (which seems to favour chasing sides).

What are the regulations relating to how they use the spare day available for the next 3 matches? Do they automatically come back if a full game cannot be completed on Day 1?

by VTR Sun 07 Jul 2019, 7:57 am

Good post by KP Fan apart from the last sentence, which we will agree to disagree on that whole conspiracy theory

And "England never threatened India with a defeat" has to be the most bizarre statement I've ever seen on here

by Duty281 Sun 07 Jul 2019, 8:01 am

subhranshu.kumar.5 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
subhranshu.kumar.5 wrote:India and Australia were no doubt the best two teams in this world cup. No doubt England won their last game and were gifted by Dhoni the game before.

I heard Australia has not defeated England at Edgbaston since 1993, but also heard the England has not defeated Australia at WC since 1992.

Again my bet on India and Australia final.

I don't see a clear stand-out between India/Australia/England, presently. In the group stages when the three heavyweights played one another - England outplayed India. India outplayed Australia. Australia outplayed England. All three were comprehensive victories. Saying that Dhoni gifted England a game is nonsensical - India were just beaten by the better team on the day and at no stage did it look like they were going to win.

England may not have beaten Australia at a WC since 1992, but that has little relevance to Thursday's encounter.

England didn't outplayed India. They both were on the same mark at the end of 40 overs. Again England never threatened India with a defeat. They were not able to bowl out mighty Dhoni and weak Jadav even. If you go and look at commentry on cricinfo, you will find out that Dhoni never tried to go for big overs, rather he was happy with 6-8 run a over. And India lost that match by 31 runs with 5 wickets to spare.

The only team that scared India with defeat was Afghanistan. Even mighty England could not bowl them out.

Looking at Australia, if we leave the defeat against India, they were well on charging every opposition. Even in the last game they were well cruising for victory and fell short by 10 runs only against a good SA bowling.

England on the other hand faced defeat against two weakest opponents as compared to English batting.(England came in this WC as the best team of all) They failed to chase even 230 odd run against a weak Sri Lanka, outplayed by a margin against comparatively weak(look at last 10 games between them) Australia and failed to cross the line against unpredictable Pakistan even after a brilliant start.

My bet on India and Australia final with 50% chance of winning the trophy to both the teams.

Well, yes, England did threaten India with defeat, hence why India ended up defeated. I don't need to look up cricinfo commentary, thanks, I watched the entire game - England were always ahead in the game and never looked like losing. The scores may have been roughly the same after 40 overs, but England have superior batting depth to India, hence why they were ahead, and the pitch had slowed up significantly during India's innings.

You may have a very low opinion of Dhoni and think he threw a game, but most wouldn't agree with you.

by Duty281 Sun 07 Jul 2019, 8:10 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:It has been strange how the team batting second seems to have been at a disadvantage in this tournament - is it something real or just a very low probability statistical anomaly?

The way things are - it seems to me we have:
Batting first: Batting Second
India ---------- NZ .................... India strong favorite
NZ -------------India ................. India weak favorite
Australia ------ England ............ Australia favorite
England ------- Australia .......... England weak favorite

With England although they have shown remarkable form against India and NZ, I have a gut feeling they are not mentally tough and can wilt when the pressure is high. India and Australia seem to be tougher sides mentally. This is only my gut feeling - and it could just be indigestion.

England played their best cricket of the tournament so far when they were one loss away from the exit door and the pressure was suffocating.

And with some rain around, possibly, for the semi-finals, the 'bat first factor' could be evened out by the possibility of DLS coming into play (which seems to favour chasing sides).

What are the regulations relating to how they use the spare day available for the next 3 matches? Do they automatically come back if a full game cannot be completed on Day 1?

Yes, I believe so.

13.6.3 The Semi-Finals and Final shall have a reserve day allocated on which an incomplete match shall be continued from the scheduled day. No other matches shall have a reserve day allocated.
13.6.4 If the reserve day is allocated, every effort will be made to complete the match on the scheduled day with any necessary reduction in overs taking place and only if the minimum number of overs necessary to constitute a match cannot be bowled on the scheduled day will the match be completed on the reserve day.
13.6.5 If the match has started on the scheduled day and overs are subsequently reduced following an interruption, but no further play is possible, the match will resume on the reserve day at the point where the last ball was played. Refer Appendix F.
13.6.6 If a Super Over is required and the weather prevents it from being played on the scheduled day, it will take place on the reserve day. Refer Appendix F.

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Sun 07 Jul 2019, 8:15 am

Duty281 wrote:
subhranshu.kumar.5 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
subhranshu.kumar.5 wrote:India and Australia were no doubt the best two teams in this world cup. No doubt England won their last game and were gifted by Dhoni the game before.

I heard Australia has not defeated England at Edgbaston since 1993, but also heard the England has not defeated Australia at WC since 1992.

Again my bet on India and Australia final.

I don't see a clear stand-out between India/Australia/England, presently. In the group stages when the three heavyweights played one another - England outplayed India. India outplayed Australia. Australia outplayed England. All three were comprehensive victories. Saying that Dhoni gifted England a game is nonsensical - India were just beaten by the better team on the day and at no stage did it look like they were going to win.

England may not have beaten Australia at a WC since 1992, but that has little relevance to Thursday's encounter.

England didn't outplayed India. They both were on the same mark at the end of 40 overs. Again England never threatened India with a defeat. They were not able to bowl out mighty Dhoni and weak Jadav even. If you go and look at commentry on cricinfo, you will find out that Dhoni never tried to go for big overs, rather he was happy with 6-8 run a over. And India lost that match by 31 runs with 5 wickets to spare.

The only team that scared India with defeat was Afghanistan. Even mighty England could not bowl them out.

Looking at Australia, if we leave the defeat against India, they were well on charging every opposition. Even in the last game they were well cruising for victory and fell short by 10 runs only against a good SA bowling.

England on the other hand faced defeat against two weakest opponents as compared to English batting.(England came in this WC as the best team of all) They failed to chase even 230 odd run against a weak Sri Lanka, outplayed by a margin against comparatively weak(look at last 10 games between them) Australia and failed to cross the line against unpredictable Pakistan even after a brilliant start.

My bet on India and Australia final with 50% chance of winning the trophy to both the teams.

Well, yes, England did threaten India with defeat, hence why India ended up defeated. I don't need to look up cricinfo commentary, thanks, I watched the entire game - England were always ahead in the game and never looked like losing. The scores may have been roughly the same after 40 overs, but England have superior batting depth to India, hence why they were ahead, and the pitch had slowed up significantly during India's innings.

You may have a very low opinion of Dhoni and think he threw a game, but most wouldn't agree with you.

I never had a low opinion of Dhoni. Over the years I have seen him taking the team home in way more difficult situation. Well its not a crime to expect a win from there from your hero, when he had done that before. And again I am well withing my rights to criticize him after that game.

by VTR Sun 07 Jul 2019, 8:18 am

Criticise him yes, but to blame the entire defeat on him no. You have to accept sometimes the opposition can play well and defeats do happen. The default position isn't always India win unless they do something wrong. They will lose matches, that one didn't even matter in the end.

India have a great chance now, they've got an easy semi final and play in the first match which gives extra rest for fast bowlers ahead of the final. They're favourites for the trophy now in my view

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Sun 07 Jul 2019, 8:27 am

VTR wrote:Criticise him yes, but to blame the entire defeat on him no. You have to accept sometimes the opposition can play well and defeats do happen. The default position isn't always India win unless they do something wrong. They will lose matches, that one didn't even matter in the end.

India have a great chance now, they've got an easy semi final and play in the first match which gives extra rest for fast bowlers ahead of the final. They're favourites for the trophy now in my view

Yeah, you are right. I got emotionally carried away after that defeat. After all today is the birthday of our hero of chasing.

No doubt Stokes was the difference between India's and England's total.

Again looking at NZ side, though they have lost the last 3 matches but they can be fierce on a given day, so it will not be an easy semi. Again I would always want India to play England in the finals because if Australia are through they have more chance sail to victory.(With what I have seen them in the last 15 years).

Still I have finger crossed. I wish the Trophy to land in Mumbai later this month.

by Gooseberry Sun 07 Jul 2019, 8:45 am

Dhonis batting record against Australia in recent times is worth noting. Although hes seen as past it he has past 50 4 times against them this year (including a not out) in 7 innings, and plundered 27 in 14 balls in their world cup game. Indeed most of his best innings over the past couple of years have come against the 3 sides now in the final 4.
India as a whole really struggled to get going against India, but that was Pants (or lack of skill?) showing as he swung and missed and Hardik maybe coming in too early to play with his full freedom.
Dohnis 42 off 31 was never going to be enough but its still pretty rapid and shows hes a danger still. To suggest he wasnt trying because he "only" scored at a rate of 1.5 a ball is ridiculous. He has only had one comparable innings since 2014 where he has scored at that rate and lasted more than a few balls ( new zealand in January).
He certainly didnt throw the game, that innings is right up with his best in recent years. Does that mean hes not good enough? Well he did better than those around him but it still wasnt enough so yes and no ...but stick the blame on the Kholi for chewing up as many balls as Dohni , Pandya and Jadav combined ( for two thirds as many runs) leaving them with an impossible task.

To say England didnt outplay India is frankly delusional.

by Gooseberry Sun 07 Jul 2019, 8:50 am

subhranshu.kumar.5 wrote:
VTR wrote:Criticise him yes, but to blame the entire defeat on him no. You have to accept sometimes the opposition can play well and defeats do happen. The default position isn't always India win unless they do something wrong. They will lose matches, that one didn't even matter in the end.

India have a great chance now, they've got an easy semi final and play in the first match which gives extra rest for fast bowlers ahead of the final. They're favourites for the trophy now in my view

Yeah, you are right. I got emotionally carried away after that defeat. After all today is the birthday of our hero of chasing.

No doubt Stokes was the difference between India's and England's total.

Again looking at NZ side, though they have lost the last 3 matches but they can be fierce on a given day, so it will not be an easy semi. Again I would always want India to play England in the finals because if Australia are through they have more chance sail to victory.(With what I have seen them in the last 15 years).

Still I have finger crossed. I wish the Trophy to land in Mumbai later this month.

Not an unreasonable desire!

New Zealand will need their best bowlers fit to have a chance. I would have thought India fancied Aus again after they beat them so heavily, albeit with a fit Dhawan. I do think theyd be better prepared for England second time around though.

It really is anyones guess how it will pan out though, my only confident prediction is India being in that final, so they have to be favourites.

by VTR Sun 07 Jul 2019, 9:36 am

Nice Post sk5! We all get emotionally involved, you don't want to hear what I said about Moeen after the Sri Lanka defeat. Good thing is its mainly England and India fans on here and we can all still dream of winning

by alfie Sun 07 Jul 2019, 9:37 am

subhranshu.kumar.5 wrote:
VTR wrote:Wasn't Dhoni's strike rate pretty decent in that England defeat? The game wasn't lost by him, by the time he came in it was gone

Its all irrelevant anyway, India should be delighted to be facing NZ, they have been terrible in their last two games, the batting really lacks quality

At 39 overs India were 226/3 and England were 230/3. The difference was stokes and dhoni innings.

India needed 111 from last 11 and 44 from last over. So in the 10 overs they scored 67 runs with the loss of just 2 wickets. When you need 10 run an over and you score run a ball, you were not playing for a win.

So yeah Dhoni gifted the match to England.

Sorry but that really is nonsense. England - despite losing wickets late in the innings. - made the score they did because they bat deep. And didn't destroy themselves in the pursuit of an unattainable 370 or whatever. India know very well the tail starts at eight (something they may well fix by playing Jadeja and possibly Bhuvi in the semi ; but that is another matter) and so played - as they have throughout - to their plan of building up steadily. This meant they were always under run rate pressure , and by losing their best wickets just a little too early in the chase they were always playing catch up.
Now maybe Dhoni in his prime might have made a serious charge over the last few overs - though it would have been a very difficult chase to bring off - but it is very clear he is no longer quite that player. Frankly Pandya was India's last hope in that innings and he wasn't able to do it either. If Dhoni had swung at everything over the last few overs he'd likely have got out , and India would have finished perhaps a few runs closer with more wickets down ; but they still wouldn't have won. Why is it so hard to accept that England bowled rather well and made it just too hard for India to bring off the grandstand finish ?
To imply that Dhoni deliberately threw the game is really insulting to a fine cricketer.

And by the way I agree England got an advantage by winning the toss. But that is cricket. Often happens ; though looking at the last two matches yesterday I have some hopes the toss won't be the decisive factor over the finals.

by alfie Sun 07 Jul 2019, 9:47 am

...and I posted the above without reading page eight picard

So if most of what I said was already covered/discussed/basically agreed already ...my apologies Smile

Anyway I look forward to some good semi and final matches whoever comes out on top .

by **LondonTiger** Sun 07 Jul 2019, 10:01 am

Duty281 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
What are the regulations relating to how they use the spare day available for the next 3 matches? Do they automatically come back if a full game cannot be completed on Day 1?

Yes, I believe so.

13.6.3 The Semi-Finals and Final shall have a reserve day allocated on which an incomplete match shall be continued from the scheduled day. No other matches shall have a reserve day allocated.
13.6.4 If the reserve day is allocated, every effort will be made to complete the match on the scheduled day with any necessary reduction in overs taking place and only if the minimum number of overs necessary to constitute a match cannot be bowled on the scheduled day will the match be completed on the reserve day.
13.6.5 If the match has started on the scheduled day and overs are subsequently reduced following an interruption, but no further play is possible, the match will resume on the reserve day at the point where the last ball was played. Refer Appendix F.
13.6.6 If a Super Over is required and the weather prevents it from being played on the scheduled day, it will take place on the reserve day. Refer Appendix F.

So my understanding from that is we only go to the reserve day if both sides are unable to face 20 overs. In which case DLS could still be a factor.

by **Pal Joey** Sun 07 Jul 2019, 10:07 am

Regarding Australia's injury scenario; the loss of Khawaja could be seen by some as a blessing in disguise. Although he's been quietly scoring runs at an albeit slower rate he never looked quite comfortable out there early on. However, he's done his job now and can recover his fitness for the Ashes.

If they go with Wade then that will probably be the best they can do... which doesn't seem too bad an option given his Australia A form which is quite frightening. 355 runs @ SR 182 averaging 88.75 in 4 matches. So we can't say he's not warmed up in English conditions. I don't think his inclusion would interrupt the team cohesion much at all and he should slot in there nicely up near the top. This may work well for Australia... fingers crossed.

As for a replacement for Stoinis should he not be passed fit; it's probably Handscomb or M Marsh. Handscomb seems to be doing better for Aus A in comparison (more runs, better strike rate and average) but maybe MM can offer more with bat and ball as a like for like replacement for Stoinis.
Guess we'll have to wait and see what pans out in the next few days after the fitness test(s)... we need 100% fit players. 92% won't do! Smile

by KP_fan Sun 07 Jul 2019, 10:35 am

Pal Joey wrote:Regarding Australia's injury scenario; the loss of Khawaja could be seen by some as a blessing in disguise. Although he's been quietly scoring runs at an albeit slower rate he never looked quite comfortable out there early on. However, he's done his job now and can recover his fitness for the Ashes.

If they go with Wade then that will probably be the best they can do... which doesn't seem too bad an option given his Australia A form which is quite frightening. 355 runs @ SR 182 averaging 88.75 in 4 matches. So we can't say he's not warmed up in English conditions. I don't think his inclusion would interrupt the team cohesion much at all and he should slot in there nicely up near the top. This may work well for Australia... fingers crossed.

As for a replacement for Stoinis should he not be passed fit; it's probably Handscomb or M Marsh. Handscomb seems to be doing better for Aus A in comparison (more runs, better strike rate and average) but maybe MM can offer more with bat and ball as a like for like replacement for Stoinis.
Guess we'll have to wait and see what pans out in the next few days after the fitness test(s)... we need 100% fit players. 92% won't do!

Why do you think Wade was not picked as first replacement for S.Marsh?

Now if Stonis comes thru they'd be bound by principles to play Handscomb for Khawaja.

Beyond the world cup but based on world cup performances I am looking at with interest if
-Finch will be picked in test team
-if Carey will be in test squad? His FC record is not great
~will Wade break into the test squad
~ will Paine hold his place given that Wade, Carey are better batsmen and even Handscomb has made himself available as WK?
~ would Finch be considered for test captaincy especially if he goes on to win the world cup.

by Gooseberry Sun 07 Jul 2019, 11:10 am

Interesting points regarding the test captaincy.
Paine was really only ever a stop gap as a keeper and a captain. Hes not going to get any better as a player.
Wade's been scoring a lot of runs on the Aus A tour so both he and Carey would otherwise be pressuring that position.

I also agree that Funch looks the only alternative if we assume a bowler wont get the job. None of the young bats are secure of a place, and the continued chances various Marsh brothers get are only down to a lack of quality alternatives.

Really the only two players who would make obvious candidates are Smith and Warner, both of whom are of course burnt.

Paine will have to captain for the Ashes surely, but I think you're right that Finch will get an opportunity to prove he can bat in tests as an audition to get the full captaincy. I dont think winning the world cup is required for that, this group has improved massively to get where they are now compared to the demoralised mob they were when he got the job.
Importantly Smith and Warner have shown they are capable of working under him. The most important thing for any captain is to have to respect of the senior players in the squad.

Also agree that the injury wont hurt Aus too much, although they are running very short on options with SMarsh having gone already these are not the players that they have been relying on. Having the A team in England already is a big plus for anyone they do call up from outside.
Losing Finch Smith Warner Starc or Cummins would be crippling. I guess Stoinis and Maxwell have also become very important by providing ballance if not quality in either discipline. Facing England Bherendorf is a bigger factor than he might be otherwise, cant find the statistics but left arm quicks have devastated England time and again over recent years much more so than any other type of bowler.
I'm gonna bang on like a broken record again on this but it's that factor I see as why Aus have the better of England, but England outplayed India ( no left arm quicks, lots of spin which England have been stronger than any team in world cricket against in the last 4 years) despite India being better than Aus.
Its very paper rock scissors but sometimes a side can be strong against one and weak against another.

by **Pal Joey** Sun 07 Jul 2019, 11:24 am

It's hard to say why, KP_f... re your first question.

Maybe the selectors are tying themselves in knots over selections in Test / ODI formats given the "tried but failed" records as well as the gaping hole left by the Bancroft-Smith-Warner offence which has subsequently sent Australia into a type of controlled re-entry into the ODI sphere over the past year.

There's not that much domestic ODI form to go by as there is; T20 form can be very up and down season-to-season and does not form a large part of the ODI selection criteria. And then of course there is the Marsh selection bias - seemingly a WA based persistence to keep trying with the Marsh brothers... despite their very inconsistent performances over the years.

It's a really hard question to answer with a rational mind in my opinion. Interesting though is the mini-rebirth of our ODI side in the aftermath of Sandpapergate. A huge slap in the face on the one hand but this has also provided the opportunity (forced upon us) to go with 'the next best available players'. It's sort of working out OK now with Warner and Smith (to a degree) back in the fold but to be completely vindicated (can they ever be? probably not) they will have to go all the way and claim the 6th Trophy.... and win the Ashes.

Failure from now on - then there will surely be some dirt re-surfacing and finger pointing.
Win, and there will still be the scars... but hopefully they will diminish over time.

by **Pal Joey** Sun 07 Jul 2019, 11:51 am

KP_fan wrote:
-Finch will be picked in test team
Maybe not initially but it's good to have him there and he can be called up if required. I wouldn't mind at all... I'd give him another chance.

-if Carey will be in test squad? His FC record is not great
Tempting isn't it? But they'll probably still honour Paine with the captaincy. Then again... anything is possible these days. Selectors can be ruthless.

~will Wade break into the test squad.
Probably not for the 1st Test... let's see what eventuates re injuries / availability. Like Finch... he's a good stand-by if needed.
He needs to keep warm and remain in good form though.

~ will Paine hold his place given that Wade, Carey are better batsmen and even Handscomb has made himself available as WK?
See above. Yes probably but I can see what you're getting at. I believe Carey is on the rise but will they take a gamble? Not sure...

~ would Finch be considered for test captaincy especially if he goes on to win the world cup.
Great question. Let's just try and get over this next hurdle or two before answering that one.

by alfie Sun 07 Jul 2019, 12:07 pm

Hope they don't have to go to the reserve day then. Unless the first day is a near total washout , those rules suggest you might have a daft situation where a game was reduced to , say , 25 overs each ...and they had to come back on day two to bowl the last ten of the second team's innings...
Lots of possibles. But you'd hope if the weather was awful on day one they'd postpone it if it looked as if they'd struggle to get a meaningful match in ?

by sirfredperry Sun 07 Jul 2019, 12:10 pm

England, after their damaging defeats earlier, are now battle-hardened. For them, the knock-out phase began two matches early.

Australia will be tough. But India at Edgbaston would, IMHO, have been tougher. England will now get overwhelming support at a ground where Aus have fared poorly in recent years.

by KP_fan Sun 07 Jul 2019, 1:05 pm

Pal Joey wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
-Finch will be picked in test team
Maybe not initially but it's good to have him there and he can be called up if required. I wouldn't mind at all... I'd give him another chance.

-if Carey will be in test squad? His FC record is not great
Tempting isn't it? But they'll probably still honour Paine with the captaincy. Then again... anything is possible these days. Selectors can be ruthless.

~will Wade break into the test squad.
Probably not for the 1st Test... let's see what eventuates re injuries / availability. Like Finch... he's a good stand-by if needed.
He needs to keep warm and remain in good form though.

~ will Paine hold his place given that Wade, Carey are better batsmen and even Handscomb has made himself available as WK?
See above. Yes probably but I can see what you're getting at. I believe Carey is on the rise but will they take a gamble? Not sure...

~ would Finch be considered for test captaincy especially if he goes on to win the world cup.
Great question. Let's just try and get over this next hurdle or two before answering that one.

Compared to the india series, now Aus is beginning to have enviable riches
Other than the big two pacers...they have Hazelwood, Berhendorf, NCN & 2XRichardsons all very impressive
3 batsman WK to choose from
Warner, Smith, Handscomb, Khawaja is already a good batting order

On to the worldcup...I have a feeling a BIG inning is due from Smith ( as well as Kohli)

by Gooseberry Sun 07 Jul 2019, 8:40 pm

I'm not sure Aus can really claim to have riches when it comes to batsmen keepers. None of them has been able to demand a place in the side on any format on quality. Carey and Paine are playing as much because they have to have someone as anything else. Wade hasnt been able to hold down a place as a batsman or a batsman keeper in any squad. Carey is still at an early stage internationally but hasnt exactly set the world on fire yet. Paine is just adequate with the gloves and a decent bat, not someone who would trouble le any format as a specialist batsman.
Its India who ended up playing 3 keepers in a world cup game, and could be fielded a fourth. England have two keeper batsmen who get in every format and three others who have played in the test side in the last year....and Sam billings. Plus three others who played in recent A team games.
Only Smith and Warner are really convincing as must pick batsmen in the test format for Aus. The others are in and out of the side like an England number 3.
They have no decent test all rounders and one spinner. The only embarrassment of riches they have is pace bowlers, but I wouldnt over egg Bherendorf too much yet. Hes really not done much and isnt up to the pace of starc and Cummins. SA had a stronger stable of seamers a year or two back till the injuries and age started to really bite.
This group of Australians was described as their worst set of players in the professional era minus two star batsmen. Even winning the world cup doesnt suddenly make them an embarrassment of riches over night.

by **Pal Joey** Mon 08 Jul 2019, 12:24 am

Covering all bases there I see, Goose.

Australia's success in cricket must really stick in your craw. They must be doing something right, surely?

by alfie Mon 08 Jul 2019, 1:23 am

Think the truth lies somewhere in the middle here ... as it often does.

Australia certainly look a lot better than they did a year ago. But "enviable riches " might be stretching it slightly. I think it is fair to say Smith Warner are on a different level to the rest of the batsmen ; and the wicket keeping options are interesting but not exactly in the Healy/Haddin mould (and forget Gilchrist !) Pace bowling looks to be the standout (plus Lyon of course : if he got injured the spin choices would look a bit light)

I think the Ashes will be fascinating and hard to predict. But a little matter of a WC to finish first...

by KP_fan Mon 08 Jul 2019, 5:58 am

Gooseberry wrote:I'm not sure Aus can really claim to have riches when it comes to batsmen keepers. None of them has been able to demand a place in the side on any format on quality. Carey and Paine are playing as much because they have to have someone as anything else. Wade hasnt been able to hold down a place as a batsman or a batsman keeper in any squad. Carey is still at an early stage internationally but hasnt exactly set the world on fire yet. Paine is just adequate with the gloves and a decent bat, not someone who would trouble le any format as a specialist batsman.
Its India who ended up playing 3 keepers in a world cup game, and could be fielded a fourth. England have two keeper batsmen who get in every format and three others who have played in the test side in the last year....and Sam billings. Plus three others who played in recent A team games.
Only Smith and Warner are really convincing as must pick batsmen in the test format for Aus. The others are in and out of the side like an England number 3.
They have no decent test all rounders and one spinner. The only embarrassment of riches they have is pace bowlers, but I wouldnt over egg Bherendorf too much yet. Hes really not done much and isnt up to the pace of starc and Cummins. SA had a stronger stable of seamers a year or two back till the injuries and age started to really bite.
This group of Australians was described as their worst set of players in the professional era minus two star batsmen. Even winning the world cup doesnt suddenly make them an embarrassment of riches over night.

Who said "an embarrassment of riches " Whistle

If alluding to me then "Compared to the india series, now Aus is beginning to have enviable riches" is what I said.

by KP_fan Mon 08 Jul 2019, 3:44 pm

*Ind-V-Nz* first semis @Old Trafford

-The CI pundits are running too many scenarios and turning themselves inot knots over whihc 3 bowlers will India pick given that Bumrah and Pandya re firm.

It will be Jadeja. Chahl & Bhuvi of you read almost overtly what Kohli says.

-given that the pitch traditionally support spin...will NZ play a 2nd spinner in place of Henry given that Frguson will come back for Sothee

I think they should given that Neesham and Grandomme are more or less like Henry. esp Neesham.

--India is distinctly aiming to go a bit harder right from the start as evident from their last game and that they will have 2 addtional batters ion Jadeja and Bhuvi.

Ind would like to bat first but very muhc capable of restricting NZ to 250-260ish if bolwing first....much more accomplished( against spin) Lankans had trouble getting the Indian spinners away.

--To be honest, I juts don't see NZ going past 260-270 if they get to bat first
or To stop India from posting 300+ if India bat first....wnd won't too close there chasing 300+

-Nz's only & outside chance is if Boult delivers a few bolts out of the blue and gets India 3 down for 30 in 10 overs.

by Gooseberry Mon 08 Jul 2019, 4:37 pm

Is the Williamson vs Indias spinners thing they mention really that much of a thing? He really is the key bat for NZ
Bringing in Jadeja this late is quite a thing, although he does bring the best ballance.

Two spinners though...might they want to double check which pitch is being used? It was a surprise how little help there was when England played India there and that doubled with the uneven boundaries.

It's hard to see India not winning this, they havent been totally blown apart by any attack so far.

Edit...being stupid they arent at edgbaston are they.

by robbo277 Mon 08 Jul 2019, 4:44 pm

Without seeing the pitch, I'd suggest you might be right and New Zealand's best chance is to get their bowlers into the game early. Their bowlers have been better than their batters this tournament and they may be able to chase a low total if they can restrict India. This being despite the fact that the team batting first has won every game at Old Trafford so far.

In 5 games at Old Trafford, 300 has been passed 3 times by the side batting first, with New Zealand also making 291/8 against the West Indies and India making 268/7 against the same opposition. If New Zealand could restrict India to a similar score, I'd back them to make a better attempt at chasing 269 to win than West Indies did with their 143ao.

They'll need to get Rohit and Kohli early. Rohit is on a great run of form but against England and Bangladesh he got given a life early on both times, and ended up getting centuries both times. If the NZ opening bowlers can probe around his off stump and NZ fielders can back up any chances created, then they have a chance.

If NZ do end up batting first, then they'll need to be looking around that 290 they made against West Indies. West Indies themselves nearly overhauld that and more recently Australia got to 315 chasing against South Africa. Which would have to be a bit of a shift in tempo from what they have been doing more recently.

Ultimately, I think India are the stronger team and in better form and I think they should win regardless of the toss and who bats first.

by msp83 Mon 08 Jul 2019, 5:51 pm

For India, the big question is about combinations, particularly in the bowling department. Bumrah leads the pack is all that is sure and that Pandya would be the 5th bowler. 3 positions in between are up for grabs. The sensible option is to go in with Ravindra Jadeja for one of them. in place of the rather inconsistent Kuldeep Yadav rather than Yuzvendra Chahal who has been taking more wickets all be it at a more expensive economy rate. As for the seamers, Shami has looked the greater wickettaking threat. Both him and Bhuvi hasn't quite hit top standards in the death overs, and Bhuvi can bat if need be. But Shami has looked far more lethal at the top. Early wickets can be key... And Shami is more likely to provide those than Bhuvneshwar at this point.
Another possibility is to bench Dinesh Karthik who doesn't add much value to the side with the bat and can't obviously bowl, with Jadeja, bring in both Shami and Bhuvi and play Chahal. That will provide them with 6 proper bowlers, and if one of them would have an offday, there would be plenty of quality cover. In fact, Kohli Shastri would do well to remember that Rohit, Rahul, Kohli and Pant are not Tendulkar, Ganguly, Sehwag and Yuvraj with the ball. The current crop of batsmen are utterly useless with the ball unlike the older set, Tendulkar and Yuvraj had won matches with the ball, Ganguly and Sehwag were pretty handy too.
And I completely fail to understand the point of Dinesh Karthik playing in the 11 when MS is taking the gloves. His only use is to cover for Dhoni, him playing as a regular batsman, that Miandad like six and all apart, is simply an atrocious idea of a joke! If they go in with only 5 bowlers and play Jadeja as one of them, then replace DK with Jadhav. His international record with the bat is far better than that of Karthik, and he can provide a few overs of decent enough parttime spin.

by Duty281 Mon 08 Jul 2019, 6:42 pm

New Zealand have a woeful record in World Cup semi-finals, winning just one of seven, though they do have a superior H2H record against India in this competition (4-3).

New Zealand's only chance relies on Boult and Ferguson. If they knock over the formidable top order of India cheaply, a huge ask, then they can expose a far weaker lower order and long-ish tail. Otherwise, you would expect India to have too much for the Kiwis to deal with.

I know it's a bat-first competition, but I think New Zealand will give serious consideration to fielding first if they win the toss due to the overcast, swinging conditions that are predicted tomorrow morning.

by KP_fan Mon 08 Jul 2019, 7:06 pm

msp83 wrote:For India, the big question is about combinations, particularly in the bowling department. Bumrah leads the pack is all that is sure and that Pandya would be the 5th bowler. 3 positions in between are up for grabs. The sensible option is to go in with Ravindra Jadeja for one of them. in place of the rather inconsistent Kuldeep Yadav rather than Yuzvendra Chahal who has been taking more wickets all be it at a more expensive economy rate. As for the seamers, Shami has looked the greater wickettaking threat. Both him and Bhuvi hasn't quite hit top standards in the death overs, and Bhuvi can bat if need be. But Shami has looked far more lethal at the top. Early wickets can be key... And Shami is more likely to provide those than Bhuvneshwar at this point.
Another possibility is to bench Dinesh Karthik who doesn't add much value to the side with the bat and can't obviously bowl, with Jadeja, bring in both Shami and Bhuvi and play Chahal. That will provide them with 6 proper bowlers, and if one of them would have an offday, there would be plenty of quality cover. In fact, Kohli Shastri would do well to remember that Rohit, Rahul, Kohli and Pant are not Tendulkar, Ganguly, Sehwag and Yuvraj with the ball. The current crop of batsmen are utterly useless with the ball unlike the older set, Tendulkar and Yuvraj had won matches with the ball, Ganguly and Sehwag were pretty handy too.
And I completely fail to understand the point of Dinesh Karthik playing in the 11 when MS is taking the gloves. His only use is to cover for Dhoni, him playing as a regular batsman, that Miandad like six and all apart, is simply an atrocious idea of a joke! If they go in with only 5 bowlers and play Jadeja as one of them, then replace DK with Jadhav. His international record with the bat is far better than that of Karthik, and he can provide a few overs of decent enough parttime spin.

msp my friend....you are exuding a bit of paralysis by over analysis syndrome....that CI & Majrekar are guilty of. I can assure you team management has a very clear thinking.

-Bhuvi has picked wickets at the top and will be India's first choice seamer like he was at the start,,,,,and can bat.

-Jadeja it will be with Chahl.....Kuldeep played himself out....by not getting turn even at Old trafford and even when lanka was 4 downs.
we will have ONLY 5 bowlers including Pandya......

-DK it is because he is seen as the ONLV batsman in the squad( other than Pandyaa) who can come in with 55 needed in 5 overs or 25 in last 2 ...and start hitting from ball one.....and he has built that reputation based on performances like that in T20 over a period of time.
although I would prefer Jadhav over DK....it ain't happening tomorrow.

And don't take Majrekar too seriously when he keeps ranting & crying abut the lack of a 6th bowler. If India is in a hole and desperate needs a 6th bowler

1-Rohit can bowl off spin and better than Williamson. In fact one time Dhoni played him in a test ahead of Rahane citing Rohit as an allrounder
2- Kohli can bowl slow seam up
3- Dhoni can bowl medium pace 125-130 kph in & out-duckers

And I can bet ya if I have though of these contingencies Kohli & Co have planned and practiced it too.....just that pea-nut brained commentators cannot foresee as much and spread stress all around

by Gooseberry Mon 08 Jul 2019, 7:26 pm

Looking at his stats kpf you are right, karthik has an incredible SR in T20...but just hasnt replicated that in ODIs. Is it the softer ball? Has he come in too early too often or nursing the tail to get 50 off 60 balls?
In theory India are lacking power hitters compared to England and aus, but the tactic of going slow and leaving a platform for those players has got teams into trouble at this world cup. India chasing England as an example, its proven quite hard to muscle boundaries when the pitch is sticking and the ball is soft.
I agree with you and msp, they'd be better placed picking lots of batting, keeping the rate up front the start, and nit worrying so much about the records rohit and kholi can break.
Thsts not to criticize rohit as such, he has been brilliant, just with a deeper batting order the top could take a slightly higher risk approach. And Pandya not come in too early with too much to do as has happened recently, he only averages a shade over 30 and really is a finisher not a Stokes.
Also agree with the point that a 5 bowler attack makes not picking Jadhav a big risk.

Maybe a lot of the bowler questions are more important for the final though. For this game its largely about who is best placed to get Williamson out.

by KP_fan Mon 08 Jul 2019, 8:39 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Looking at his stats kpf you are right, karthik has an incredible SR in T20...but just hasnt replicated that in ODIs. Is it the softer ball? Has he come in too early too often or nursing the tail to get 50 off 60 balls?
.

In my opinion his is fickle / frivolous and cannot sustain his focus over long innings....
give him 10 to 15 balls and he can smack 25 to 30 runs.......if he plays 40 balls its already a long inning for him.

He has been brought in as purely as a T20 styled finisher from No. 7 to cover the scenario that Ind often leaves 15-20 runs on the table.

Whereas Jadhav needs 20 odd balls to play himself in and never got that sorta time in any game except the one against AFG.

That Dhoni has aged and slowed has also necessitated putting a power hitter above him ( Pandya) and now one below him ( DK)

I

by Gooseberry Mon 08 Jul 2019, 9:19 pm

Yeah I dont doubt that's the reason hes there, I just think it's a stupid one and a stupid thing to rely on.

by It Must Be Love Tue 09 Jul 2019, 3:08 am

India should line up like this:

Rohit
Rahul
Kohli
Dhoni
Pant
Pandya
Jadhav
Jadeja
Bhuvi
Chahal
Bumrah

6 bowlers and also plenty of depth, that team would have the right balance on any pitch.

by KP_fan Tue 09 Jul 2019, 8:07 am

http://www.bcci.tv/videos/id/7778/we-are-in-a-good-space-ahead-of-the-semis-virat

Kohli Press conference.....to me shows the clarity of thoughts.....and in his line of thinking the team is situationally varies the strategy just a little a bit and with that the composition of 11 from the squad of 15.

To other points to note:
-He equates the knock out game frame of mind to the toughest moment of a test match.

-He attributes the higher success of teams batting first simply to pressure of World cup and not the pitches.

by Gooseberry Tue 09 Jul 2019, 8:52 am

So not the pitch or the boundary rope?

by Duty281 Tue 09 Jul 2019, 10:07 am

NZ win the toss and bat first. Brave call, I think. Williamson must deliver a big individual score if the Kiwis are to have any chance.

by eirebilly Tue 09 Jul 2019, 10:08 am

So NZ to bat first. Not sure that is the best choice given the conditions but we shall see.

I think 270-280 will be a tough chase today.

by **Pal Joey** Tue 09 Jul 2019, 10:12 am

Maybe the cement dust truck is running late... caught in traffic?

by KP_fan Tue 09 Jul 2019, 10:14 am

NZ win the toss and bat first....moment of truth for India.....if we want to be the world champions......we must show that we can chase down whatever NZ puts on board.

Indian team exactly as I predicted Chahl in for Kuldeep ( not necessarily exactly what I wanted)

NZ gets as a goods a deal as they would have liked the choice of toss.....someone else needs to stand-up too other than Williamson

by robbo277 Tue 09 Jul 2019, 10:18 am

Echo what others said, I thought NZ would want to get in to the Indian batsman first.

Saying that, they didn't get going in their chases against England and Australia. Their bowlers couldn't do enough to stem the runs and eventually their batters were just trying to knock it around to prevent an NRR catastrophe. If they don't fancy chasing over 240/250, then bat first might be the right option.

They can't win the game with their batting performance first up but they could certainly lose it if they don't perform. Williamson as ever will be key. After the early inevitable first wicket he'll need to bat through for a ton to be the mainstay of the innings. Against Pakistan they were 83-5 with the fall of Williamson (41) and posted a substandard score despite a good partnership between Neesham and de Grandhomme.

by eirebilly Tue 09 Jul 2019, 10:18 am

Guptill is the man that needs to fire for NZ today. I agree with KP_fan that NZ cannot solely rely on Williamson. Guptill is a very good batsman normally but he needs to be there at the 40 over stage if NZ are to post a competitive total.

by **Pal Joey** Tue 09 Jul 2019, 10:26 am

eirebilly wrote:Guptill is the man that needs to fire for NZ today. I agree with KP_fan that NZ cannot solely rely on Williamson. Guptill is a very good batsman normally but he needs to be there at the 40 over stage if NZ are to post a competitive total.

I was just thinking exactly the same thing, Billy.

They can't lose more than one wicket (preferably none of course) in the 1st powerplay. Guppy and Nicholls will have to do more than just see it through... they'll need to keep the scoreboard ticking along. If they're 2 or 3 down for not much after 10 overs; then it's pretty much game over you would think.

I just think India will have their measure. Then again maybe NZ are due a bit of luck?

by subhranshu.kumar.5 Tue 09 Jul 2019, 10:29 am

Bit disappointed with the toss. Always wanted India to bat first and put a big total and rest will be looked upon by Bumrah and Company. However India is a good chaser. I see a good contest here.

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