ICC Cricket World Cup - Part 4

First topic message reminder :

Yes, England expected to be unchanged. Long boundaries apparently, which will suit England's excellent running ability!

If there were a decent replacement in the wings, I think Rashid's place would be under severe threat. He's got figures of 7/403 from 69 overs in the World Cup so far, which is hardly illuminating stuff.

He's also a high stakes gambler... and therefore goes that extra little bit too far. I guess that "all or nothing" mentality is what made him such a star player. It could backfire on occasion of course. I too find him a bit much. I like the Huss... similar to Sanga. Sensible remarks and easy on the ear.

Wow Pant did 70% McCullum. Wonderful fielding.

245 would be good for NZ from here. I really cant see them getting much more than that.

Their bowlers will have to produce something special to beat India.

Now with Williamson gone. 245 even looks far away for NZ.

India have bowled really well and will comfortably win this now.

Big wicket for Chalal ! Just as Williamson looked to be taking charge with an eye towards the last ten over onslaught...
Good comeback from Chalal after taking a bit of tap earlier.

NZ need one of the all rounders to play a blinder now....and Taylor to stay in.

Not watching the game cos in a meeting at work - but what on earth have NZ been doing?

TMS reporting that rain might be on the way at or before the interval. With NZ trying to time this innings and probably being a bit behind where they want to be, they could do without being rain-affected.

Once you get into the last 10 wickets lost don't matter as much in DLS. So if they sense the rain might be imminent they may need to try for a couple of big 15+ run overs to change that DLS equation.

This isn't too bad from New Zealand




If it was a Test Match

Credit to India's bowling here, they have been very controlled and miserly. Okay, NZ have not shown any intent to attack but they really have not been afforded the chance too.

It really does look more and more like its India's game to lose from here, rain affected or not.

NZ 155-3 from 40. Next 10 overs will be bowled 3 from Kumar, 3 from Bumrah, 2 from Pandya and 2 from Chahal.

Adding 75 for 230 is probably about par for them from here, and you'd say behind where they should be in the game. Adding 100 for 255 is probably a good stretch target.

It doesn't sound like it's been an easy pitch to bat on, but it will have to be some bowling performance by NZ to defend this, ruling out the last 10 overs flying away for 150+.

I actually think that NZ will struggle to get 210 - 220 from here. This has been an excellent bowling performance from India.

NZ will have to bowl out of their skins to restrict India.

And that is what happens...

India are bowling well. I said 75 would be par for NZ, but their whole batting performance has been underpar so far due to India's strangle with the ball. It wouldn't be too surprising to see that continue and NZ to add fewer than 75 in these 10 - especially now Neesham has gone.

Pretty predictable really. Williamson gets runs but slowly. NZ start shipping wickets instead of properly accelrating. 

With 6 overs of the prime seamers left for the death 250 looks a dream now, 230 seems more likely. 

Really cant see it being enough, should be a stroll for India unless the new ball pair can perform miracles

Pandya finishes on 1-55. Chahal is taking some punishment here too and finishes 1-63.

The new ball bowlers bowled very well in favourable conditions and have good figures, but NZ played them well and ensured they didn't lose wickets early.

The problem for New Zealand was Jadeja. Allowing him to go for 1-34 in the middle overs let India off the hook a little. Looking back, they should feel they could have been more proactive against him.

Last 6 overs to be bowled by the new ball bowlers returning - 197-4. Anything from 210-250 is possible still. Taylor out first ball of this spell lbw to Kumar but overturned on review. Big moment for NZ.

India’s wrist spinners have been dreadful this World Cup and in this match they should’ve selected Shami. IIRC Shami has more wickets in 3 matches than Chahal and Kuldeep combined

Ah we've got that persistent English drizzle over Manchester.

Could be back on in ten minutes, could also take three hours!

Few misfields helping NZ towards a possible 235 ? 211 with four more overs...when they get back from this rain delay.

Hard to see it being enough , though it looks like more of a bowlers day . Might grab some sleep and check later...

Anyone understand the DL system enough to say what India will chase if NZ do not complete their innings from here?

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:India’s wrist spinners have been dreadful this World Cup and in this match they should’ve selected Shami. IIRC Shami has more wickets in 3 matches than Chahal and Kuldeep combined

I don't think it's appropriate to analyse a bowler based on his last over being slogged when called in last 10 overs-....I think Kohli erred in not finishing off Chahl's spell when he was at his best.
I think India's bowling has worked well as a unit......and in most games all or atleast 4 have done well.

Spinners were responsible today for choking NZ in middle overs and building so muhc pressure

eirebilly wrote:Anyone understand the DL system enough to say what India will chase if NZ do not complete their innings from here?

According to Cricinfo, if the Kiwis can't bat again, India will need 237 from 46 overs. Or 148 from 20 overs. It'll be two hours, though, before we start losing overs.

I still don't understand DLS, but there we are!

Duty281 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Anyone understand the DL system enough to say what India will chase if NZ do not complete their innings from here?

According to Cricinfo, if the Kiwis can't bat again, India will need 237 from 46 overs. Or 148 from 20 overs. It'll be two hours, though, before we start losing overs.

I still don't understand DLS, but there we are!

It's a resource calculation (wickets x overs).

Because NZ's innings was curtailed during the innings and India's chase would be shortened beforehand the important factor is that NZ had to time their innings to last 50 overs. If India get a 46 over reply, their target will be more than NZ's 211, because they can use all 10 wickets to get there.

So they might say 211-5 after 46.1 would go to a 250 par. Then to chase that in 46 overs you'd need 237 (because that could be 237-9). Again, despite extrapolating NZ's score to 250ish (5rpo), they'd need 148 in 20 overs (7.4rpo) because although India would have fewer overs they'd have all their wickets to play with and could start swinging earlier.

KP_fan wrote:

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:India’s wrist spinners have been dreadful this World Cup and in this match they should’ve selected Shami. IIRC Shami has more wickets in 3 matches than Chahal and Kuldeep combined

I don't think it's appropriate to analyse a bowler based on his last over being slogged when called in last 10 overs-....I think Kohli erred in not finishing off Chahl's spell when he was at his best.
I think India's bowling has worked well as a unit......and in most games all or atleast 4 have done well.

Spinners were responsible today for choking NZ in middle overs and building so muhc pressure

Chahal got slogged in his final over, but during the world cup he’s not been threatening. Aside from the South Africa match, he’s not looked very good.

Kuldeep has been totally exposed as well

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:India’s wrist spinners have been dreadful this World Cup and in this match they should’ve selected Shami. IIRC Shami has more wickets in 3 matches than Chahal and Kuldeep combined

I don't think it's appropriate to analyse a bowler based on his last over being slogged when called in last 10 overs-....I think Kohli erred in not finishing off Chahl's spell when he was at his best.
I think India's bowling has worked well as a unit......and in most games all or atleast 4 have done well.

Spinners were responsible today for choking NZ in middle overs and building so muhc pressure

Chahal got slogged in his final over, but during the world cup he’s not been threatening. Aside from the South Africa match, he’s not looked very good.

Kuldeep has been totally exposed as well

Yeah this is as good ( or as bad ) as they have been .......and its been good enuf for India
I haven't seen any "threatening" spinners in this world cup ...except Afgans on a sticky pitch and Santner for a few overs vs Pak , on a D5 like pitch

Noting all the above on DLS, 211 would have taken some converting to 250. 148 in 20 does seem a lot more likely to be defended than 250 in 50, especially on this wicket. If there's a bit of overhead and some swing early on it could be interesting.

It would also be interesting to see how NZ use Boult. In a 20 over game he only gets 4 overs. Do you bowl him out early with the harder ball and try to nick some early wickets, or do you give him a couple up front and then save a couple for the death?

I'd also assume that there are still two new balls, so if NZ bowled their openers through for 8 overs as well as the Indian openers did then India could be way behind the rate, wickets down or both.

NZ will probably be hoping for a long delay here.

Duty281 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Anyone understand the DL system enough to say what India will chase if NZ do not complete their innings from here?

According to Cricinfo, if the Kiwis can't bat again, India will need 237 from 46 overs. Or 148 from 20 overs. It'll be two hours, though, before we start losing overs.

I still don't understand DLS, but there we are!

Well NZ hardly look like reaching 237 if they bat full 50n overs and NZ would give an arm and leg to get to defend 148 in 20
BUT those scenarios are better then a SUPER Over

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Anyone understand the DL system enough to say what India will chase if NZ do not complete their innings from here?

According to Cricinfo, if the Kiwis can't bat again, India will need 237 from 46 overs. Or 148 from 20 overs. It'll be two hours, though, before we start losing overs.

I still don't understand DLS, but there we are!

Well NZ hardly look like reaching 237 if they bat full 50n overs and NZ would give an arm and leg to get to defend 148 in 20
BUT those scenarios are better then a SUPER Over

Well it looks like this is going to be a very lengthy delay - radar suggests rain continuing for another hour at least - so I think India will be hoping we come back tomorrow. They certainly wouldn't want to chase 148 in 20 overs on a dank and dark Manchester evening!

robbo277 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Anyone understand the DL system enough to say what India will chase if NZ do not complete their innings from here?

According to Cricinfo, if the Kiwis can't bat again, India will need 237 from 46 overs. Or 148 from 20 overs. It'll be two hours, though, before we start losing overs.

I still don't understand DLS, but there we are!

It's a resource calculation (wickets x overs).

Because NZ's innings was curtailed during the innings and India's chase would be shortened beforehand the important factor is that NZ had to time their innings to last 50 overs. If India get a 46 over reply, their target will be more than NZ's 211, because they can use all 10 wickets to get there.

So they might say 211-5 after 46.1 would go to a 250 par. Then to chase that in 46 overs you'd need 237 (because that could be 237-9). Again, despite extrapolating NZ's score to 250ish (5rpo), they'd need 148 in 20 overs (7.4rpo) because although India would have fewer overs they'd have all their wickets to play with and could start swinging earlier.

Good post.

I do get the general method behind the madness, but the execution often seems wonky to me. India having to chase 148 in 20 overs seems a lot more difficult, comparatively, to chasing, say, 240 in 50 overs, which would have been the general figure had the heavens not opened.

Cut off time is 8, but we can go on until 9 if the match referee thinks a result is possible.

So plenty of time for India to be left with a tricky 20 over chase.

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:India’s wrist spinners have been dreadful this World Cup and in this match they should’ve selected Shami. IIRC Shami has more wickets in 3 matches than Chahal and Kuldeep combined

I don't think it's appropriate to analyse a bowler based on his last over being slogged when called in last 10 overs-....I think Kohli erred in not finishing off Chahl's spell when he was at his best.
I think India's bowling has worked well as a unit......and in most games all or atleast 4 have done well.

Spinners were responsible today for choking NZ in middle overs and building so muhc pressure

Chahal got slogged in his final over, but during the world cup he’s not been threatening. Aside from the South Africa match, he’s not looked very good.

Kuldeep has been totally exposed as well

Yeah but the short boundary at Edgbaston ..... 

Duty281 wrote:Cut off time is 8, but we can go on until 9 if the match referee thinks a result is possible.

So plenty of time for India to be left with a tricky 20 over chase.

Its not what we wanted but it's OK if we get 148 in 20 overs......I am sure Ind will knock it off because there is negligible fear of being bowled out

I think the tricky part is Ind get a 40 over target and if it rains again and game is further shortened, then Ind must be ahead on D/L

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Cut off time is 8, but we can go on until 9 if the match referee thinks a result is possible.

So plenty of time for India to be left with a tricky 20 over chase.

Its not what we wanted but it's OK if we get 148 in 20 overs......I am sure Ind will knock it off because there is negligible fear of being bowled out

I think the tricky part is Ind get a 40 over target and if it rains again and game is further shortened, then Ind must be ahead on D/L

The onus is on India to not bat too conservatively from the start then. Which is exactly what they might do if chasing 240 off 50 ....

I love how we are managing to make this feel exciting rather than inevitable. You can colour me amazed if India manage to stuff this up.

India can breathe a sigh of relief as it looks as though rain has curtailed things for the day. Means we'll resume tomorrow from 10:30 with NZ batting out their allocation in a full 50-over contest.

Hope the weather's better and hope there's a decent crowd in.

The TMS commentators were quite keen to nonchalantly get the Indians to started this evening, in the guise  of shame-that-spectators-would-have-to-go.
I think we know what they were thinking


It would have been a travesty if game had restarted today with 20 overs and, then stopped after 10 and then restarted for remaining 10 tomm....completely killing any momentum for even a 20 over chase of 148 runs.

Now, tomm I believe they will complete remaining 4 overs for NZ inning.....and then Ind will chase about 240ish in 50 overs and then if it rains at any point India simply has too be ahead on D/L at that point
so as an example after 20 overs Ind would have to be 60-0 or 68-1 wicket to win on D/L

wow...what a difference it makes depending on how you apply D/L

forecast looks reasonable for tomorrow. India will breeze it

Duty281 wrote:India can breathe a sigh of relief as it looks as though rain has curtailed things for the day. Means we'll resume tomorrow from 10:30 with NZ batting out their allocation in a full 50-over contest.

Hope the weather's better and hope there's a decent crowd in.

Sigh of relief for India???? Are you insane ?

India was capable of chasing any target given today.

Rain spoils the day, thankfully, we have a reserve day. Seems the weather is set to be even more dreadful tomorrow though! Hope there would be a proper contest and a full game.
Indian bowlers did a good job restricting New Zealand. Bumrah was excellent at the top, giving nothing away. Bhuvneshwar didn't let his side down, though he didn't really get the ball to swing a great deal though. Still would have preferred Shami, in those early helpful conditions, think he could have been more lethal. Jadeja was absolutely excellent. Went for 7 in his first and 8 in his last, but in between, they couldn't even hit him off the square! Got the ball to bounce and turn more than Chahal and Kuldeep managed throughout the tournament! Rather unfortunate to finish with just the one wicket. Good smart captaincy from Kohli to bowl him out early, when he wasn't giving away, it is bst to bowl him out so that the batters then had to take greater risks against the likes of Bumrah.
Chahal was rather disappointing, though I preferred his inclusion over Kuldeep. Anyone could go for runs in the last overs. But Chahal was not quite hitting the right line and particularly length from the start itself. The fact that Jadeja gave nothing away from the other end and the early burst from Bumrah and Bhuvneshwar made the New Zealand batsment rather restrained against him kind of saved his figures up to that last over.

Looking beyond the WC a bit. Is the tide finally turning for Jadeja and even R Ashwin for that matter? Kuldeep and Chahal pretty much earned their places over India's test led spinners through their performances. But they both have had more struggles than successes in this WC. It was a similar impactless performance that ended up halting Ashwin's and Jadeja's limited overs careers at the top level though Jadeja made a successful comeback last year and has done well in most games he played since.
Don't think the doors would straight away open for Ashwin who had a decent IPL as his fitness itself is a bit of a letdown and he's not getting any younger. But the likes of Shreyas Gopal, Mayank Markande and other young spinners have a great opportunity to put some serious pressure on India's led limited over spinners besides the stiff competition provided by Jadeja, and the absent presence of Ashwin. They both bowl rist spin, and Gopal is a pretty decent bat too.

msp83 wrote:Looking beyond the WC a bit. Is the tide finally turning for Jadeja and even R Ashwin for that matter? Kuldeep and Chahal pretty much earned their places over India's test led spinners through their performances. But they both have had more struggles than successes in this WC. It was a similar impactless performance that ended up halting Ashwin's and Jadeja's limited overs careers at the top level though Jadeja made a successful comeback last year and has done well in most games he played since.
Don't think the doors would straight away open for Ashwin who had a decent IPL as his fitness itself is a bit of a letdown and he's not getting any younger. But the likes of Shreyas Gopal, Mayank Markande and other young spinners have a great opportunity to put some serious pressure on India's led limited over spinners besides the stiff competition provided by Jadeja, and the absent presence of Ashwin. They both bowl rist spin, and Gopal is a pretty decent bat too.

Chahar a 19 year old leggie is also doing well for Ind-A  and he can bat too( cousin of seam bowler Deepak Chahar) & Washington Sundar is first choice spinner in A sides.
Kuldeep will get a long rope....he is a test match winner......and Ashwin/ Jadeja are already the lead test spinners.

Chahl's confidence has seemingly taken a hit...and he is trying to bowl too fast and restrictive lines. Some-one should have a chat with him...and ask him to bowl slower & toss it up.
Also Kohli needs to bowl him out when he is at his best.....escpecially when bowling first

This tournament has been a graveyard for spinners, leggies in particular. Or maybe not a graveyard ...their figures havent been terrible, it's more been a paradise for fast bowlers , left armers in particular.

It's a complete reversal of whats happened in ODIs over the previous two years.

Dont read too much into the Indian pairings figures in the WC, or their rise in short formats in terms of test places.

https://secure.manchester.gov.uk/info/500224/city_wide/7070/facts_about_manchester

Scroll down to rainfall.. I'm calling BS

subhranshu.kumar.5 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:India can breathe a sigh of relief as it looks as though rain has curtailed things for the day. Means we'll resume tomorrow from 10:30 with NZ batting out their allocation in a full 50-over contest.

Hope the weather's better and hope there's a decent crowd in.

Sigh of relief for India???? Are you insane ?

India was capable of chasing any target given today.

I'm perfectly sane, thank you, in spite of the unhinged nature of your post.

India would rather chase 230-240 in 50 overs (about 85-15 in their favour) rather than 148 in 20 overs in the gloom (60-40 in their favour), that is all.

so guys
what's the best place to check the local weather over Old Trafford tomm and Edgbaston Thursday?

BBC has hour by hour with % chance of rain. Currently shows it should be cloudy but dry tomorrow for Indias game.

NZ may regret their decision to bat first if the day starts clear and batting is easier for India tomorrow. It was a really tricky opening period that set them back today, if that's gone tomorrow then it will go down as a really poor decision at the toss.

However if the game had been rained out today with no reserve day India would have been straight through on overall pool record (as they will be tomorrow if no result is reached). So NZ will ultimately he happy that there is a reserve day available.

Feels a real shame that they carry on as were tomorrow. Different day makes it possibly a very different game.

Surely better for the game that it was stopped when it was and a chance of a proper finish tomorrow than a stop/start D/L result over a very abbreviated Indian innings ?

NZ may be disadvantaged if batting is easier on resumption. But batting first was their own choice and they knew the weather risks...

In any case it may well be that there is still some help for the bowlers in the pitch - and also maybe plenty of movement in the air. So if Boult were to grab a couple of early scalps this could well be interesting yet. The Indian batting is longer in this selection ; but they still have a lot of their strength concentrated in the top three so I don't think anything can be assumed.

% chances in reality are just (often subjective) guesses by fans. Fair to say you'd rather have India's position overnight. But in the words of Geoff Boycott "add two quick wickets and then see how it looks"...

Gooseberry wrote:https://secure.manchester.gov.uk/info/500224/city_wide/7070/facts_about_manchester

Scroll down to rainfall.. I'm calling BS

but your forgetting that our usual glorious weather is usually grey over cast drizzle. might not hit as high on amount of rain falling but we certainly do it best over long periods

Gooseberry wrote:BBC has hour by hour with % chance of rain. Currently shows it should be cloudy but dry tomorrow for Indias game.

Now showing rain before the start and chance of rain during.

Would be hilarious if the game was rained off and went to a toss of the coin, just to see the rabid conspiracy theories that ensue.