Pro 14 2019/2020 Season

First topic message reminder :

From a Dragons fan perspective looking ahead into the new season and which sides I would like to catch early in the Pro14 due to players having gone to the World Cup.

Obviously Hill, Dee & Moriarty will be big misses for us during this period. I think we may have Wainwright available (if they end up picking Shingler to cover Lock/Blindside). Think Brown probably wont make the cut either.

So hopefully our starter lineup will look like this:
1. Bevington 2. Hibbard 3. Brown/Fairbrother 4. Nansen 5. Screech 6. Wainwright 7. Griffiths 8. Evans
9. Williams 10. Davies 11. Rosser 12. Dixon 13. Morgan 14. Howells 15. Williams

Now looking at the other sides in the competition it would be great if we could catch some of the league powerhouses early. My Breakdown of the other teams:-

1. Scarlets - Look weak in the front 3. Possibly a weakness at outside centre as well. Would imagine they will be playing Asquith at 12 during this period. McNicholl will probably be the star man on this team opening rounds.

2. Blues - On paper even without the internationals they look a seasoned well rounded team. Probably dangerous for any team in the league during the opening rounds. Halaholo is my star man pick but the entire Blues 8 are extremely experienced (although I don't rate Gill much). Also unclear if Ellis will recover from injury or if he will end up parachuted into Wales WC Squad. If not he will just add to that fairly experienced pack.

3. Ospreys - Will have a fairly competitive pack assuming Bradley doesn't make the cut for the World Cup. The real weakness for them is in the backline. At 9 currently they will be playing rookies and 13 potentially as well unless they opt to play Hook at 12 and move Allen to 13. Giles will probably end up on the wing as well and while he has potential - defensively they may struggle against experienced backlines. That said they probably have enough upfront to power over most teams in the league. Star Man will be Bradley Davies if he doesn't make the world cup.

4. Munster - Probably going to missing around 11 players on World Cup duty. To me Tighthead and at 8 they look particularly weak. To me the backline also looks a little short on quality although granted they do have some potential in the backline.Personally I would like to catch them at Rodney Parade early. I'm still not sure away would be a banker for us. Reckon their key man will be Bleyendaal in the opening part of the season for his experience.

5. Leinster - Now I don't know if they still have the rule of not being able to select 2 non irish players in their starting 15's or if they are allowed exceptions in the early part of this season. Even taking into consideration that they can start Fardy, Gibson-Park, Lowe and Tomane the real problem for them is in the pack. They look seriously underpowered and inexperienced. They probably are hoping Smidt doesn't take Ruddock to the WC. Personally getting these in R2 or R3 away would be perfect. I think we can take them early doors before the return of their internationals. Star Man: Lowe

6. Ulster - For me probably the biggest Irish threat early. Only place they might be a little short on experience will be at 5 and 14. Pack on paper looks extremely strong and along with Cardiff both these sides should be fairly confident into the early rounds. Star Man: McCloskey
Would like to avoid these early doors altogether.

7. Connacht - Not really disrupted to much for internationals like us. Good experienced team. Always going to be dangerous at home. Star Man: Roux Another side I would like to see us avoid early doors but if we have to a home draw that wouldn't be the worst fixture start for us.

8. Edinburgh - Cockerill has done a amazing job with them. Surely even he can't cover 14 players at the world cup. Still managed to assemble a big pack for this period though so it's clear they wont be beaten upfront easily. 9, 10 and 15 look like the real problem area for him. Getting them at home would suit me fine. Star Man: Socino

9. Glasgow - Probably losing at least 13 players if not more. They still have a lot of experience in that squad. On paper probably have to much for us home or away. If we have to though a home draw would be better. Star Man: Lee Jones

10. Treviso - Backline looks very experienced for the league. Upfront a different story altogether. Can see them taking a bit of a battering upfront early doors. Star Man: Ioane
Don't mind if we get them early home or away

11. Zebre - Same story with them. Losing key personnel to the WC. Upfront looks very inexperienced. Backline will also be inexperienced. Can they get Boni back in time for the start of the season. The Centre was a powerhouse before his long term injury and would also have made the Italian squad if he wasn't out of action. Star Man: Walker (reckon he's going to surprise a few in the Pro14)

12. Kings - Not going to be missing any internationals. But they still lack quality for compete at this level. No signings of note in the off season. Could be a long season for them again? Personally I expect us to beat them home and away. Would be a waste to draw them during the World Cup period. Star Man: Catrakilis

13. Cheetahs - Same story as the Kings. To many lost star after their first season in the Pro14. They do have a better record than the kings and at home they will win games. Prefer to not draw them either in the opening rounds. Star Man: Nche

How do you fancy your teams chances and what teams would you like to draw early or avoid during the World Cup?

Premier sports doing an annual pass Black Friday offer for £49 with promo code PREMIER49 if anyone is interested

Looks like I got a lot of my calls right on page 1 then.

I flicked between both games tonight; Ulster vs Scarlets and Munster vs Edinburgh. The Irish commentators are inane and shockingly biased. Do we have to put up with this all season? If so then we may as well cancel our premier sports subscription.

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Premier sports doing an annual pass Black Friday offer for £49 with promo code PREMIER49 if anyone is interested

Someone tell the rugby clubs of Merthyr, quick

Good bonus point win away just now, for a team I’m usually critical of.

mikey_dragon wrote:I flicked between both games tonight; Ulster vs Scarlets and Munster vs Edinburgh. The Irish commentators are inane and shockingly biased. Do we have to put up with this all season? If so then we may as well cancel our premier sports subscription.

The home country provide the coms team, but usually with one from the visitors team.

Good win for Zebre.

carpet baboon wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I flicked between both games tonight; Ulster vs Scarlets and Munster vs Edinburgh. The Irish commentators are inane and shockingly biased. Do we have to put up with this all season? If so then we may as well cancel our premier sports subscription.

The home country provide the coms team, but usually with one from the visitors team.

You couldn’t find anyone better in Ireland and Wales? Nobody likes Holley either.

mikey_dragon wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I flicked between both games tonight; Ulster vs Scarlets and Munster vs Edinburgh. The Irish commentators are inane and shockingly biased. Do we have to put up with this all season? If so then we may as well cancel our premier sports subscription.

The home country provide the coms team, but usually with one from the visitors team.

You couldn’t find anyone better in Ireland and Wales? Nobody likes Holley either.

I'm sure if you send them a list of commentators you approve of they will get right on it

profitius wrote:Good win for Zebre.

Totally expected win for Zebre, thanks to our owners.

Credit to Cardiff Blues for winning like they did, given the same circumstances. That deserves highlighting.

First Zebre win for 12 months. And in style. Not sure how "the owners" are to blame here...the Dragons wouldn't exist without them, and the WRU wouldn't afford the regional game if it weren't for Team Wales.

The Dragons had 4 players playing for Wales. Four (4).

Dragons had five (5) actually playing for Wales. They were also unable to select one who was a travelling reserve and two due to injuries sustained with Wales. Take out a 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 and 11 from Dragons team and they’re not going to be able to win many games against a team with internationals. Hardly a great surprise.

And yet those are the circumstances some are judging the Ospreys' lost to the Kings on...

LD must have stepped down from his role as the Ospreys champion then.

Shane Williams is sticking the boot in as well:-

Shane Williams dubs Welsh regional rugby attendances 'dire' and warns football is taking fans and players away.

Wales legend Shane outlined his concerns for his beloved game.

Rugby legend Shane Williams has painted a gloomy picture for the game in Wales below international level and admitted the impact of football on our nation is "a problem".

And he pointed an accusing finger at regional rugby saying the current state of affairs is "quite dire" and only an upturn in performances and standards would get disenchanted fans back watching games.

Wales' record try-scorer Shane is not the only high-profile figure to voice his concerns over the game here below international level.

Last month, former Wales coach Warren Gatland warned regional and club rugby faces an uncertain future if self-interests and tribalism remain.

The New Zealander, who bid a final farewell to Wales at the weekend when coaching the Barbarians at the Principality Stadium, lamented watching the Welsh regions playing in half-empty stadiums this season, while in Ireland support for the provincial game is vibrant. You can read Gatland's full views here .

Before the weekend's round of PRO14 matches, the total number of fans who have watched the four regions at home this season in the league totalled just 65,037 - barely 3,000 more than the number who flocked through the turnstiles for the Wales v the Baa-baas non-capped game on Saturday.

The Scarlets are currently Wales' best supported region with their four PRO14 games attracting 25,327 fans, with an average 6,332 attendance.

The struggling Ospreys have had 16,636 fans through the gates in their three home matches, for a 5,545 average, while the Blues are on a 5,381 average from a 16,144 total in three league games.

The Dragons had pulled in just 6,930 fans before last weekend for their two home games, with an average of 3,465, with only the Southern Kings (2,666) and Zebre (2,200) below them in the PRO14.

By contrast, Cardiff City, a side that has been struggling in the Championship, are averaging 22,744. The Bluebirds can expect those gates to rise further if they start challenging for the top.

Swansea City, who got off to a flying start under Steve Cooper, are averaging 16,702.

When asked why Welsh rugby is becoming a turn-off with fans below Test level, former wing wizard Shane pulled no punches.

He told RugbyPass : "It’s easy for the fans not to bother because there are so many other things going on.

"They have got a football team to support. They have got local rugby and football and unfortunately in Wales, we have got a fickle nation. We do enjoy being victorious and we get very critical when things aren’t going our way.

"You have got the other sports to contend with, especially football, so it is difficult.

"I see it not only at regional rugby, I see it at grassroots rugby where there was a time when my boy was playing under-11s rugby and we could barely get nine or 10 players to come out and play, whereas with football they were scratching two sides together.

"It is a problem. It really is a problem.

"We need to start performing, we need to start getting people interested in coming back into the stadiums again, we want bums on seats, we want the youngsters to want to go and watch the Ospreys or the Scarlets, or whatever and we can’t only rely on our top players.

"The likes of Alun Wyn Jones, Justin Tipuric, the experiences of James Hook, we are relying on them a little bit too much. It’s about taking pride in your region, taking pride in your performances and only that will get you victories and only that well get you bums on seats.

"We want to see the likes of Alun Wyn playing in full capacity grounds week in, week out because he puts the effort in and he wants to win these games… at the moment it is quite dire.

"They need the support, they need an atmosphere. We are doing everything we can to win these games. We don’t go out to try and lose and any kind of help would certainly make a difference. As a player, I remember playing in the Liberty Stadium in front of 18,500 supporters.

"The game was much easier than when it was in front of 2,000 on a Friday night where it was pouring down knowing that these people have come to watch us play and we are not playing well. It’s difficult.

"We are very lucky there are some fantastic stadiums in Wales, that we are unfortunately unable to fill at the moment. What do you do to change that? You need to start winning, need to start getting results and another flip side is you need to have the financing to do that as well.

"There are lots of things you would love to change, it’s just being in control and unfortunately we don’t have that in Wales at the moment.

"We don’t have the benefactors that the likes of the English Premiership or France have really and we are still playing catch-up.


"There are a lot of things that need to change. People want to see headliners, people want to see good players playing in the leagues, they want to see the youngsters coming through and performing but as far as I am concerned, it is about getting those victories.

"It will bring supporters, without a doubt. The endeavours are there, but there is just a lot of things missing at the moment."

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/shane-williams-dubs-welsh-regional-17345103

"Before the weekend's round of PRO14 matches, the total number of fans who have watched the four regions at home this season in the league totalled just 65,037 - barely 3,000 more than the number who flocked through the turnstiles for the Wales v the Baa-baas non-capped game on Saturday."

That's why the WRU hosts Team Wales games.

miaow wrote:"Before the weekend's round of PRO14 matches, the total number of fans who have watched the four regions at home this season in the league totalled just 65,037 - barely 3,000 more than the number who flocked through the turnstiles for the Wales v the Baa-baas non-capped game on Saturday."

That's why the WRU hosts Team Wales games.

Chicken and egg isn't it. The regions can say they're losing fans because the WRU are not helping them. Hosting a barbarians game at the weekend looks terrible. They've pulled the international players from European games also. I don't think pro14 or EPRC management are too happy either.


Things are going to get worse. Attendances dropping and there's nothing to play for then attendances will continue to drop and that will result in an even lower budget for next season.

profitius wrote:Things are going to get worse.

Yes, you are not wrong there. We need to do something, and do it quickly, in saying that, I do not think the league do a lot to help either. But that's a different debate.

A better organised season in terms of fixtures would be a good start.  International and club match windows should not allow any overlap at all, IMO.  What Wales did on the weekend should never to be allowed to happen.  And that's from someone who is probably much more 'international' than 'club' in my rugby support.

Edit: just to add - I've got nothing against Wales hosting money spinners. I think we need it. But it can't be at the expense of the clubs and their fixtures. Just put them on when there are no club games. The Wales team is on a high at the moment support-wise so they'll still get a good turnout even if it's outside the regular season.

The league should have never had made the decision to put itself on a totally obscure sports channel and expect the fans in Wales to jump on board. Making that decision has almost dealt the league a fatal blow in Wales.

Ulster Total 35,633 Avg 11,878
Leinster Total 34,539  Avg 11,513
Munster  Total 32,625 Avg 10,875
Glasgow Total 20,394 Avg 6,798
Scarlets Total (4 games) 25,327 Avg 6,332
Connacht Total 17,913 Avg 5,971
Ospreys Total 16,636 Avg 5,545
Cardiff Blues Total 16,144 Avg 5,381
Edinburgh Total 15,174 Avg 5,058
Cheetahs  Total 13,924 Avg 4,641
Benetton total 10,889 Avg 3,630
Dragons Total (2 games) 6,930 3,465
Southern Kings Total 7,999 Avg 2,666
Zebre Total 6,600 Avg 2,200

LordDowlais wrote:The league should have never had made the decision to put itself on a totally obscure sports channel and expect the fans in Wales to jump on board. Making that decision has almost dealt the league a fatal blow in Wales.

It’s not obscure.  You just have to pay for it. Like most sports these days. And it doesn’t stop people attending matches.

LordDowlais wrote:The league should have never had made the decision to put itself on a totally obscure sports channel and expect the fans in Wales to jump on board. Making that decision has almost dealt the league a fatal blow in Wales.

Im afraid the problems are internal. You can't keep blaming everyone else.

Pot Hale wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The league should have never had made the decision to put itself on a totally obscure sports channel and expect the fans in Wales to jump on board. Making that decision has almost dealt the league a fatal blow in Wales.

It’s not obscure.  You just have to pay for it. Like most sports these days.  And it doesn’t stop people attending matches.

It is obscure. Nobody knew about it until the rugby went on there. Well in Wales it is obscure. I know it's cheap, it's only a £10 a month, but people in Wales will chose other sports channels over Premier sports, as it does not offer as much.

A lot of people in Wales watch their own clubs, then they caught up with the regions on tele, this is not happening anymore, sadly. Not even my club will pay for it.

profitius wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The league should have never had made the decision to put itself on a totally obscure sports channel and expect the fans in Wales to jump on board. Making that decision has almost dealt the league a fatal blow in Wales.

Im afraid the problems are internal. You can't keep blaming everyone else.

I'm not blaming anybody else, what a stupid thing to suggest.

LordDowlais wrote:

profitius wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The league should have never had made the decision to put itself on a totally obscure sports channel and expect the fans in Wales to jump on board. Making that decision has almost dealt the league a fatal blow in Wales.

Im afraid the problems are internal. You can't keep blaming everyone else.

I'm not blaming anybody else, what a stupid thing to suggest.

You blamed the “league”. That’s made up of the 3 shareholders and 5 unions.

LordDowlais wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The league should have never had made the decision to put itself on a totally obscure sports channel and expect the fans in Wales to jump on board. Making that decision has almost dealt the league a fatal blow in Wales.

It’s not obscure.  You just have to pay for it. Like most sports these days.  And it doesn’t stop people attending matches.

It is obscure. Nobody knew about it until the rugby went on there. Well in Wales it is obscure. I know it's cheap, it's only a £10 a month, but people in Wales will chose other sports channels over Premier sports, as it does not offer as much.

A lot of people in Wales watch their own clubs, then they caught up with the regions on tele, this is not happening anymore, sadly. Not even my club will pay for it.

Nobody knew about it until the rugby went on there. So now they know, it’s not obscure ie not known about. If your club doesn’t want to pay a tenner to watch your region’s games, then it’s not about the TV channel.

Pot Hale wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:The league should have never had made the decision to put itself on a totally obscure sports channel and expect the fans in Wales to jump on board. Making that decision has almost dealt the league a fatal blow in Wales.

It’s not obscure.  You just have to pay for it. Like most sports these days.  And it doesn’t stop people attending matches.

It is obscure. Nobody knew about it until the rugby went on there. Well in Wales it is obscure. I know it's cheap, it's only a £10 a month, but people in Wales will chose other sports channels over Premier sports, as it does not offer as much.

A lot of people in Wales watch their own clubs, then they caught up with the regions on tele, this is not happening anymore, sadly. Not even my club will pay for it.

Nobody knew about it until the rugby went on there.  So now they know, it’s not obscure ie not known about. If your club doesn’t want to pay a tenner to watch your region’s games, then it’s not about the TV channel.  

It costs more than a tenner for my club to show Premier sports to the public, we are charged by the square meter, and potential viewers.

profitius wrote:

miaow wrote:"Before the weekend's round of PRO14 matches, the total number of fans who have watched the four regions at home this season in the league totalled just 65,037 - barely 3,000 more than the number who flocked through the turnstiles for the Wales v the Baa-baas non-capped game on Saturday."

That's why the WRU hosts Team Wales games.

Chicken and egg isn't it. The regions can say they're losing fans because the WRU are not helping them. Hosting a barbarians game at the weekend looks terrible. They've pulled the international players from European games also. I don't think pro14 or EPRC management are too happy either.


Things are going to get worse. Attendances dropping and there's nothing to play for then attendances will continue to drop and that will result in an even lower budget for next season.

The regions could say that, but ultimately it's wrong. The Scarlets have been to the latter stages of Europe and won a league title recently. The Blues have won a European trophy. Attendances don't even come close to what the Ospreys were getting a decade ago. The money and interest isn't there and, as alluded to above by Shane, the rise of Swansea and then Cardiff to become Premier League clubs was basically the death knell for attendances, and one of the main reasons for the justification of a North Wales region. The Dragons can't get 4k a game in a city of 150k. You literally cannot take the risk that pumping money in to the regions to maybe sort-of hopefully make them competitive will lead to long term rises in attendance. It's financial and business suicide when you can host one game and effectively gain the funds to give back to the regions which would take a whole season to hopefully gain.

Hosting Wales games is removing variables, removing steps, and makes sense - it's practically guaranteed income.

As the Scarlets show, ownership of stadia is highly profitable.

It's really not chicken and egg. If it has to be an either or - rathe than both, which everyone obviously wants - then it makes sense to stick another Wales game on, particularly when the international players are during their warm down phase from the RWC anyway.

Putting a Wales game on is more or less just like printing money for the WRU.

miaow wrote:

profitius wrote:

miaow wrote:"Before the weekend's round of PRO14 matches, the total number of fans who have watched the four regions at home this season in the league totalled just 65,037 - barely 3,000 more than the number who flocked through the turnstiles for the Wales v the Baa-baas non-capped game on Saturday."

That's why the WRU hosts Team Wales games.

Chicken and egg isn't it. The regions can say they're losing fans because the WRU are not helping them. Hosting a barbarians game at the weekend looks terrible. They've pulled the international players from European games also. I don't think pro14 or EPRC management are too happy either.


Things are going to get worse. Attendances dropping and there's nothing to play for then attendances will continue to drop and that will result in an even lower budget for next season.

The regions could say that, but ultimately it's wrong. The Scarlets have been to the latter stages of Europe and won a league title recently. The Blues have won a European trophy. Attendances don't even come close to what the Ospreys were getting a decade ago. The money and interest isn't there and, as alluded to above by Shane, the rise of Swansea and then Cardiff to become Premier League clubs was basically the death knell for attendances, and one of the main reasons for the justification of a North Wales region. The Dragons can't get 4k a game in a city of 150k. You literally cannot take the risk that pumping money in to the regions to maybe sort-of hopefully make them competitive will lead to long term rises in attendance. It's financial and business suicide when you can host one game and effectively gain the funds to give back to the regions which would take a whole season to hopefully gain.

Hosting Wales games is removing variables, removing steps, and makes sense - it's practically guaranteed income.

As the Scarlets show, ownership of stadia is highly profitable.

It's really not chicken and egg. If it has to be an either or - rathe than both, which everyone obviously wants - then it makes sense to stick another Wales game on, particularly when the international players are during their warm down phase from the RWC anyway.

Attendances, WTF? How about creating an investable product and a better development pathway.

They can't keep up with the cost of financing pro rugby by playing more internationals - this was true then and it's true now:

https://rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com/2019/01/13/the-maths-of-pro-rugby-wales-is-skint/

You don't seem to understand how businesses work, do you, Stone. You need money to keep them running. You don't pay for 2019-20 by investing for 2024-25 and hope that suddenly all the issues that keep people away from the regions are solved.

As I said, it's not an either/or...until it was made clear that Team Wales is infinitely more investable and reliable and profitable than the regions.

Can't just pretend it's 1975 and rely on 'what ifs'. Wales games - and the stadium - is a major part of the WRU's profitability, which in turn keeps clubs like the Dragons afloat instead of going bust. It's not 'how about' in best case scenarios, it's both - but it's 'how about no' because the regions face issues that they cannot solve themselves, where the national team does not face those issues. It's pointless throwing bad money at it in higher rates - that's just the reality of diminishing returns. Growth/success isn't proportional to money spent.

Simple stuff, really.

Have Swasea and Cardiff Attendances gone up as the Regions gone down or is it just 20 years ago the Regions had lots now they don't.
What percent of the soccer clubs attendances are away fans as they are playing bigger teams so bringing more fans.

Owning your own stadium is the only way for teams to be sustainable even in other sports. Look at Italian soccer and how much of a difference it made to Juv. Having an asset that can make money outside of match day makes a massive difference compared to paying over money for the match day that might not be covered by tickets. As far as I know the WRU brought Rodney Parade as part of the deal and would also be taking in money from weeks that Newport County play there.

I would love to know how much the Regions make from Judgement Day as the WRU must give them a good price.

Attendances will be down due to the WC anyway.

Brendan wrote:Have Swasea and Cardiff Attendances gone up as the Regions gone down or is it just 20 years ago the Regions had lots now they don't.
What percent of the soccer clubs attendances are away fans as they are playing bigger teams so bringing more fans.

Owning your own stadium is the only way for teams to be sustainable even in other sports.  Look at Italian soccer and how much of a difference it made to Juv.  Having an asset that can make money outside of match day makes a massive difference compared to paying over money for the match day that might not be covered by tickets.  As far as I know the WRU brought Rodney Parade as part of the deal and would also be taking in money from weeks that Newport County play there.

I would love to know how much the Regions make from Judgement Day as the WRU must give them a good price.

Attendances will be down due to the WC anyway.

Regions didn't exist 20 years ago!
I believe Newport County keep the bar and gate receipts. They pay for using the stadium though. Not sure how much.
Judgement Day - I believe the 2 'home' teams on the day split the gate receipts.

Maybe should have said 10 years.

My point was that the Football clubs have increased but it doesn't mean they took fans from the Regions. They attendances increased mainly to improving their performance standards on the pitch.

Since the 2012 final when Ospreys beat Leinster only Scarlets have made it to the final. It's hard to keep fans when they don't get many big days out. Or even just big wins

Also a reflection of socio-cultural change. 10 years ago was just on the brink of the credit crunch. It's a very different world today. People leave and move where the money is. It's generally not in Wales outside pockets of Cardiff and exurbia. We're not in the same boat as Irish and Scottish fans in that regard - easier to move to, say, Bristol or London or Manchester or wherever than it would be to move from Cork to England. Scottish fans don't need to leave to earn decent money - also huge population difference.

miaow wrote:You don't seem to understand how businesses work, do you, Stone. You need money to keep them running. You don't pay for 2019-20 by investing for 2024-25 and hope that suddenly all the issues that keep people away from the regions are solved.

As I said, it's not an either/or...until it was made clear that Team Wales is infinitely more investable and reliable and profitable than the regions.

Can't just pretend it's 1975 and rely on 'what ifs'. Wales games - and the stadium - is a major part of the WRU's profitability, which in turn keeps clubs like the Dragons afloat instead of going bust. It's not 'how about' in best case scenarios, it's both - but it's 'how about no' because the regions face issues that they cannot solve themselves, where the national team does not face those issues. It's pointless throwing bad money at it in higher rates - that's just the reality of diminishing returns. Growth/success isn't proportional to money spent.

Simple stuff, really.

Being unable to play more internationals to keep up with the spiralling cost of pro rugby isn't a 'what if' though, is it Lord Sugar. Nor is the CVC money, if you need more of a clue. Attendances

Brendan wrote:Maybe should have said 10 years.

My point was that the Football clubs have increased but it doesn't mean they took fans from the Regions.  They attendances increased mainly to improving their performance standards on the pitch.

Since the 2012 final when Ospreys beat Leinster only Scarlets have made it to the final.  It's hard to keep fans when they don't get many big days out. Or even just big wins

I’ve never quite believed in the football argument when it comes to rugby attendances in Wales. Firstly, and this is only my own experience so must be taken with a pinch of salt, but I don’t know anyone who has left rugby to support football or vice versa.  I’ve got football mad friends who go to football but would never dream of stepping into a rugby stadium (those types that call it ‘egg chasing’ and think players all shout ‘rah’ as if it’s a posh sport in Wales). I’ve got rugby mad friends who are vice versa. Well, not completely vice versa as many of them (myself included) don’t mind football too much and would happily watch the odd game on TV, but we’re unlikely to go to a football match. And then there’s the ones who sort of like sport and sort of quite like both but never go to any games. But I’ve not really heard of anyone ditching one for another (you know, buying season tickets and completely swapping). I’m sure it’s happened, but I just can’t see it being in such a great volume as to make a noticeable dent in attendances like is being claimed.

My second point is that, if football was taking fans from the regional game then I’d expect the national team attendances to suffer too. The football resurgence would surely nab them from Team Wales too. Yet interest in the Welsh national rugby team has never been better and they’re not exactly struggling to sell out the PS.

So I think the two things (regional attendance decline; club football increase) are mutually exclusive, by and large. For me any rugby decline is mostly to do with it’s lack of success on the field, although I appreciate that’s a bit simplistic. But Wales are doing well and interest is really high. Attendances were lower when Wales were not so good. Pre-2005 for a long period, for example. The regions’ attendances seem to ebb and flow with success. Ospreys were higher when they were winning. Scarlets’ attendances improved when they were flying high. Dragons’ have been falling over the years as we turn out season after season of woeful performances! So it’s more likely (IMO) that fans are leaving because they’re not enjoying losing all the time rather than them switching to attend the local football side. I just don’t see the fans being the sort of people who do that (not in that volume) and I don’t see it reflected in the football numbers increasing by the same number that rugby is decreasing. Sometimes, for sure, but not in the thousands. If the regions turn themselves around I can see the attendances increase, but I doubt that would lead to a fall in football attendances. Would it?

Stone Motif wrote:

miaow wrote:You don't seem to understand how businesses work, do you, Stone. You need money to keep them running. You don't pay for 2019-20 by investing for 2024-25 and hope that suddenly all the issues that keep people away from the regions are solved.

As I said, it's not an either/or...until it was made clear that Team Wales is infinitely more investable and reliable and profitable than the regions.

Can't just pretend it's 1975 and rely on 'what ifs'. Wales games - and the stadium - is a major part of the WRU's profitability, which in turn keeps clubs like the Dragons afloat instead of going bust. It's not 'how about' in best case scenarios, it's both - but it's 'how about no' because the regions face issues that they cannot solve themselves, where the national team does not face those issues. It's pointless throwing bad money at it in higher rates - that's just the reality of diminishing returns. Growth/success isn't proportional to money spent.

Simple stuff, really.

Being unable to play more internationals to keep up with the spiralling cost of pro rugby isn't a 'what if' though, is it Lord Sugar.  Nor is the CVC money, if you need more of a clue. Attendances

I genuinely don't even know what you're trying to say here, but you seem to find it amusing, so that's a poisitive. You can mock LD and his business all you like but you seem to have literally no financial understanding. If there is a limited pool of money, with two avenues of investment, and one is infinitely more risky, with a longer payoff, and a track record of failure, where the other has none of those issues...where do you put the money. Simple stuff.

etc...

You're overlooking kids in all this Oracle. It's more the 16-24 age group that rugby loses and football seems to do a better job of keeping due to the crowds, for obvious reasons. Football is a much better spectator sport, have to be honest, where I think watching rugby on TV - or at least with a TV feed close by in the ground - is a better experience. If the play is camped up the other end of the pitch and you cant see whats going on, it's often pretty bad to watch. Football's never like that. You can score 3 seconds after a goal kick. Much better to watch, as well as the culture etc., singing, fighting, whatever. Young men are going to the football over rugby. It's not so much a case of losing one or the other at an older age, it happens when they're kids, and it's a choice between taking the family to one or the other, or when the regions became useless, then it's like a sinking ship with casual attendance. If people talked about Keelan Giles like they talked about Wilfried Bony then rugby would be doing well.

miaow wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

miaow wrote:You don't seem to understand how businesses work, do you, Stone. You need money to keep them running. You don't pay for 2019-20 by investing for 2024-25 and hope that suddenly all the issues that keep people away from the regions are solved.

As I said, it's not an either/or...until it was made clear that Team Wales is infinitely more investable and reliable and profitable than the regions.

Can't just pretend it's 1975 and rely on 'what ifs'. Wales games - and the stadium - is a major part of the WRU's profitability, which in turn keeps clubs like the Dragons afloat instead of going bust. It's not 'how about' in best case scenarios, it's both - but it's 'how about no' because the regions face issues that they cannot solve themselves, where the national team does not face those issues. It's pointless throwing bad money at it in higher rates - that's just the reality of diminishing returns. Growth/success isn't proportional to money spent.

Simple stuff, really.

Being unable to play more internationals to keep up with the spiralling cost of pro rugby isn't a 'what if' though, is it Lord Sugar.  Nor is the CVC money, if you need more of a clue. Attendances

I genuinely don't even know what you're trying to say here, but you seem to find it amusing, so that's a poisitive. You can mock LD and his business all you like but you seem to have literally no financial understanding. If there is a limited pool of money, with two avenues of investment, and one is infinitely more risky, with a longer payoff, and a track record of failure, where the other has none of those issues...where do you put the money. Simple stuff.

etc...

The WRU don't invest in the regions, champ. They pay them for services rendered. They can't pay them any more, and what they pay is lots and lots less than other unions pay into their pro tiers, who are already running away in the distance due to greater competition and TV income.

Praps if you can your head around this basic reality, you can also grasp that that as that there limited pool of money 'invested' (which is money earned by the regions in any case) isn't enough. The other option may be risky but the alternative is, extinction.

Not sure where you're getting your numbers from, Stone, but they're wrong.

miaow wrote:Not sure where you're getting your numbers from, Stone, but they're wrong.

Let's see your workings then.

Yours first, dear.

I hate the word champ. Reminds me of PhilBB.

miaow wrote:Yours first, dear.

You said I'm wrong, prove it.

RiscaGame wrote:I hate the word champ. Reminds me of PhilBB.

Pseud would be a better one, granted - but I'm already on one warning for mentioning carpets

Stone Motif wrote:

miaow wrote:Yours first, dear.

You said I'm wrong, prove it.

What figures is he referring to?

Pot Hale wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

miaow wrote:Yours first, dear.

You said I'm wrong, prove it.

What figures is he referring to?

Pass. I just know I'm wrong.

Alright champs?