Political round up.............

Soft thread split, hard thread split, no-deal thread split. Who gives a sh!t as long as we get a thread split by the 15:35 deadline.

SecretFly wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Who is doing the speaking:  The 'majority' Minority that cried and fretted, and went ape schidt when the result was announced.

What was it that the public said they wanted:  To stay in the EU and seek deeper integration immediately.  That's what the public said when they voted by a majority for Brexit.

We all know the answers to these questions, Super.  Why are you in the dark?  Were you away that day?

And how then could that 'majority' Minority be responsible for the ongoing failure in delivering Brexit and be able to drive the narrative and control how Brexit is handled?  

I think we're about 2 posts away from you claiming that this is some kind of George Soros led conspiracy?  

Who has led the supposed rush to 'Brexit means Brexit' up to this point?  It's simple.  
Doesn't need George, the man you still obviously haven't studied in depth.  No it doesn't need him.  

All it needs is a Remain voter as PM, an EU negotiating team, an Irish Backstop quagmire, a Private Legal crusade by a Business woman, a politically biased Parliamentary speaker and that there Parliament that you all say must be involved.  

The Remainers (Tories amongst them) love the idea of the eternal arguments.  They love the delays.  They pretend they're all hot and bothered but no, they're not.  The longer the delays, the longer Remain continues as a possibility.  I think you're a Remainer?  Delays are your lifeblood.  Why don't Remainers just admit the logical truth?

Conspiracy theory 7D - 158:  Boris might also be a Remainer.  Might turn out to be your Champion knight.  Who knows.

Is it only remainers who are delaying things, Fly? I could have sworn the ERG lot voted against the deal.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hope you never become Independent for your sake..

Wouldn't be able to self sustain....

Absolute nonsense.

I still await that golden answer to why Westminster do not let Scotland go independent if (as we are told) Scotland is heavily-subsidised. The fact they won't speaks bucket loads. Scotland stands 44th highest export earner in the world and sits above many countries who have been independent for many decades. Ireland cope just fine as well since they went independent.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Who is doing the speaking:  The 'majority' Minority that cried and fretted, and went ape schidt when the result was announced.

What was it that the public said they wanted:  To stay in the EU and seek deeper integration immediately.  That's what the public said when they voted by a majority for Brexit.

We all know the answers to these questions, Super.  Why are you in the dark?  Were you away that day?

And how then could that 'majority' Minority be responsible for the ongoing failure in delivering Brexit and be able to drive the narrative and control how Brexit is handled?  

I think we're about 2 posts away from you claiming that this is some kind of George Soros led conspiracy?  

Who has led the supposed rush to 'Brexit means Brexit' up to this point?  It's simple.  
Doesn't need George, the man you still obviously haven't studied in depth.  No it doesn't need him.  

All it needs is a Remain voter as PM, an EU negotiating team, an Irish Backstop quagmire, a Private Legal crusade by a Business woman, a politically biased Parliamentary speaker and that there Parliament that you all say must be involved.  

The Remainers (Tories amongst them) love the idea of the eternal arguments.  They love the delays.  They pretend they're all hot and bothered but no, they're not.  The longer the delays, the longer Remain continues as a possibility.  I think you're a Remainer?  Delays are your lifeblood.  Why don't Remainers just admit the logical truth?

Conspiracy theory 7D - 158:  Boris might also be a Remainer.  Might turn out to be your Champion knight.  Who knows.

Is it only remainers who are delaying things, Fly? I could have sworn the ERG lot voted against the deal.

Conspiracy theory 7D - 158, subsection A. The ERG might also be Remainers.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Is it only remainers who are delaying things, Fly? I could have sworn the ERG lot voted against the deal.

What deal? The Deal that Brexiteers think is anti-Brexit?

Natural isn't it, to say no? No?

But doesn't that illustrate the fundamental problem we have: that there's no agreement on what Brexit should look like? There's no majority for any one kind of Brexit. So what do we do?

All the people were asked was whether we should remain a member state of the EU. There were no asterisks.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Conspiracy theory 7D - 158, subsection A. The ERG might also be Remainers.

Such clarity of thought.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:But doesn't that illustrate the fundamental problem we have: that there's no agreement on what Brexit should look like? There's no majority for any one kind of Brexit. So what do we do?

All the people were asked was whether we should remain a member state of the EU. There were no asterisks.

No Deal Brexit

Or

General Election

?

Parliament won't allow a no deal Brexit. So there's really no point threatening the EU with it. Even if we had a true believer like Steve Baker as prime minster, the government still wouldn't be allowed by parliament to do it. So the idea that the threat of leaving with no deal will get the EU to start making new concessions is both laughable and sad.

A general election on the back of Boris Johnson having not led us out of the EU on Hallowe'en as he pledged to do will be a hoot.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Parliament won't allow a no deal Brexit. So there's really no point threatening the EU with it.

A general election on the back of Boris Johnson having not led us out of the EU on Hallowe'en as he pledged to do will be a hoot.

BJ needs some lessons on the EU and its laws. At the only live debate he did he suggested they'd keep in place an agreement that allows free movement of trade across the Irish border. Eh no Boris. That current agreement is part and parcel of being in the EU you dipstick. Your No Deal Brexit terminates that such agreement straight away. And to think this is who the majority of Tory supporters see as their knight in shining armour. Terrifying thought.

Yet it's your only option. You've talked all other possibilities into the realms of the impossible.

Election is the only thing that will potentially give movement.

Election it is?

SecretFly wrote:Yet it's your only option.  You've talked all other possibilities into the realms of the impossible.

Election is the only thing that will potentially give movement.

Election it is?

In all honesty an election should have been called for immediately after May's Deal had been kicked into touch by Westminster. It was clear then that Brexit was not going to happen under the current government.

Yes. The Tories don't want one but I can't see how they avoid one.

If Tories lose Brecon & Radnorshire by-election (by-election now confirmed for 1st August) to Lib Dems they might get a bit spooked about holding autumn general election. By-elections whilst not necessarily that significant on their own can be good way of testing the political temperature. This forthcoming by-election in Mid-Wales is likely to have v low turnout in summer holidays - however, when there is low turnout its all about 'getting out the vote' - Lib Dem voters/tactical Remainers are likely to be more motivated than Tory/Brexit voters given the timing a week after Boris's likely coronation.

However, if a deal looks unlikely to get passed, the political fallout of: another extension, or rescinding article 50, or No Deal Brexit, would be so great, perhaps a general election still looks more attractive prospect whatever happens in mid-Wales.

Boris is indifferent. He'll think about it when the time comes.

MrInvisible wrote:If Tories lose Brecon & Radnorshire by-election (by-election now confirmed for 1st August) to Lib Dems they might get a bit spooked about holding autumn general election.  By-elections whilst not necessarily that significant on their own can be good way of testing the political temperature.  This forthcoming by-election in Mid-Wales is likely to have v low turnout in summer holidays - however, when there is low turnout its all about 'getting out the vote' - Lib Dem voters/tactical Remainers are likely to be more motivated than Tory/Brexit voters given the timing a week after Boris's likely coronation.

However, if a deal looks unlikely to get passed, the political fallout of: another extension, or rescinding article 50, or No Deal Brexit, would be so great, perhaps a general election still looks more attractive prospect whatever happens in mid-Wales.

A chain of circumstances though could make it unavoidable. If BJ goes chasing his No Deal Brexit then the DUP may withdraw their support of the Tories. That would leave them up s*** creek.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

MrInvisible wrote:If Tories lose Brecon & Radnorshire by-election (by-election now confirmed for 1st August) to Lib Dems they might get a bit spooked about holding autumn general election.  By-elections whilst not necessarily that significant on their own can be good way of testing the political temperature.  This forthcoming by-election in Mid-Wales is likely to have v low turnout in summer holidays - however, when there is low turnout its all about 'getting out the vote' - Lib Dem voters/tactical Remainers are likely to be more motivated than Tory/Brexit voters given the timing a week after Boris's likely coronation.

However, if a deal looks unlikely to get passed, the political fallout of: another extension, or rescinding article 50, or No Deal Brexit, would be so great, perhaps a general election still looks more attractive prospect whatever happens in mid-Wales.

A chain of circumstances though could make it unavoidable. If BJ goes chasing his No Deal Brexit then the DUP may withdraw their support of the Tories. That would leave them up s*** creek.

There would be Tory resignations too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48742881

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

MrInvisible wrote:If Tories lose Brecon & Radnorshire by-election (by-election now confirmed for 1st August) to Lib Dems they might get a bit spooked about holding autumn general election.  By-elections whilst not necessarily that significant on their own can be good way of testing the political temperature.  This forthcoming by-election in Mid-Wales is likely to have v low turnout in summer holidays - however, when there is low turnout its all about 'getting out the vote' - Lib Dem voters/tactical Remainers are likely to be more motivated than Tory/Brexit voters given the timing a week after Boris's likely coronation.

However, if a deal looks unlikely to get passed, the political fallout of: another extension, or rescinding article 50, or No Deal Brexit, would be so great, perhaps a general election still looks more attractive prospect whatever happens in mid-Wales.

A chain of circumstances though could make it unavoidable. If BJ goes chasing his No Deal Brexit then the DUP may withdraw their support of the Tories. That would leave them up s*** creek.

There would be Tory resignations too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48742881

The astounding thing is how they've stayed in power this long for all that has gone on.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

MrInvisible wrote:If Tories lose Brecon & Radnorshire by-election (by-election now confirmed for 1st August) to Lib Dems they might get a bit spooked about holding autumn general election.  By-elections whilst not necessarily that significant on their own can be good way of testing the political temperature.  This forthcoming by-election in Mid-Wales is likely to have v low turnout in summer holidays - however, when there is low turnout its all about 'getting out the vote' - Lib Dem voters/tactical Remainers are likely to be more motivated than Tory/Brexit voters given the timing a week after Boris's likely coronation.

However, if a deal looks unlikely to get passed, the political fallout of: another extension, or rescinding article 50, or No Deal Brexit, would be so great, perhaps a general election still looks more attractive prospect whatever happens in mid-Wales.

A chain of circumstances though could make it unavoidable. If BJ goes chasing his No Deal Brexit then the DUP may withdraw their support of the Tories. That would leave them up s*** creek.

There would be Tory resignations too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48742881

The astounding thing is how they've stayed in power this long for all that has gone on.

They might not have done if there was a credible alternative. Sorry for opening yet another can of worms.

We currently have a system which works best when we have two main functional parties. As there are no large functional parties our current system does not work.

I was thinking yesterday of the excellent Labour shadow cabinets that would have killed to be facing a government as staggeringly inept as this.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I was thinking yesterday of the excellent Labour shadow cabinets that would have killed to be facing a government as staggeringly inept as this.

Give us an idea of their vision and a few policies.....Because in 2015 the three Centrists Corbyn beat didn't have much of either.

I am not as undemanding as you....I like to know what I am voting for..Enlighten me..

I'm not a Labour voter. But imagine how much better than Corbyn John Smith would have fared, for example.

Also, please don't say I'm undemanding.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm not a Labour voter. But imagine how much better than Corbyn John Smith would have fared, for example.

John Smith isn't available.............He wasn't as right wing as the Blairites anyway..

What a crap answer....Expected better.

I'll live with it.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'll live with it.

That's the spirit...

In other news...Tories ahead again for the first time in months..

Ipsos

Con 26
Lab 24
Lib 22
Brex 12

Brexit party is on 24 with YG and 12 with ipsos.............One of them is way out..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'll live with it.

That's the spirit...

In other news...Tories ahead again for the first time in months..

Ipsos

Con 26
Lab 24
Lib 22
Brex 12

Brexit party is on 24 with YG and 12 with ipsos.............One of them is way out..

Defo the YG one way out. There is no way on Earth Brexit Party will be anymore successful than UKIP were at General Elections.

There is no way they are 12.

So..... one of them is way out

The test for the Brexit Party is whether people will vote for them in a 'real' election. Will we see protest voting in a general election? Are they more than that?

This sort of applies to the Lib Dems too - will their success in the last couple of elections be replicated when it matters, so to speak?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The test for the Brexit Party is whether people will vote for them in a 'real' election. Will we see protest voting in a general election? Are they more than that?

This sort of applies to the Lib Dems too - will their success in the last couple of elections be replicated when it matters, so to speak?

If Brexit hasn't been solved, and Brexit is the main issue of an election - and it would take some major spin and selective news telling by the established media to pretend it won't be the main issue if it remains unsolved during a General Election campaign period - then people will vote on their views on Brexit mostly.
I think most voters would be prepared to hold off on their hopes on issues outside Brexit until Brexit is solved.  
Brexit informs all other topics anyway.  You can't promise a damn thing in other areas until you bring in the Brexit conclusion.
It's not a Protest Vote...it's people voting on the structure of their very governance into the future.  That's not 'protest' - that's people who either want Brexit or don't want it - passionately on both extremes.
 It's the genuine main political issue of this age for the UK voters.

They still need some policies.

SecretFly wrote:Brexit informs all other topics anyway.... It's the genuine main political issue of this age for the UK voters.

I don't disagree.

SecretFly wrote:I think most voters would be prepared to hold off on their hopes on issues outside Brexit until Brexit is solved.

I do disagree.

Pr4wn wrote:They still need some policies.

Their rivals are hoping they need some policies.  Their rivals will try to force them to admit they have few policies... but let's be honest, the voters will be voting for parties that either offer Brexit or offer versions of Remain.  I think the Brexit Party and the LibDems know exactly what the topic is in the win v lose battle.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Brexit informs all other topics anyway.... It's the genuine main political issue of this age for the UK voters.

I don't disagree.

SecretFly wrote:I think most voters would be prepared to hold off on their hopes on issues outside Brexit until Brexit is solved.

I do disagree.

So do the experiment on yourself then.  Ask yourself what might be your issue of most concern excluding Brexit.  An issue that if one party said they had a policy on that issue that if elected, they'd do exactly what you would want to see happen.  I don't know what that issue might be for you - education, tax, health.... whatever it might be.
Now it's established that this party promises to give you what you've been looking for in that non-Brexit related issue.  But when asked about Brexit policy - they say they need a firm mandate from the people, and if they get it, they intend following through on Leave.  They are for Leave.

Two things:  Would you really vote for them because their policy A views are agreeable to you?
And secondly, if they were for Brexit, and you happened to be a Remainer, you wouldn't believe a damn thing they promised about policy A anyway.  You'd say they were lying, or fiddling the numbers or offering fake carrots just to get your vote.  

Brexit will be the main ingredient if a General Election is called and Brexit has still to be solved.

Everything hinges on Brexit, that's evidently true. Now we've seen from polls that a significant number of Conservative party members would be prepared to sacrifice the union, and even the party itself, if it meant Brexit being delivered, but I don't believe that 'Brexit at all costs' is a majority view in the country by a long shot. This is where the Brexit Party will struggle, IMHO. Even those that voted for them in the European elections may want to know what these Brexit Party MPs intend to do after we've left the EU.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Everything hinges on Brexit, that's evidently true. Now we've seen from polls that a significant number of Conservative party members would be prepared to sacrifice the union, and even the party itself, if it meant Brexit being delivered, but I don't believe that 'Brexit at all costs' is a majority view in the country by a long shot. This is where the Brexit Party will struggle, IMHO. Even those that voted for them in the European elections may want to know what these Brexit Party MPs intend to do after we've left the EU.

Call a General Election?  And return to their Traditional Party Homes?  War over.  Back to the basics of Domestic Right/Centre/Left politics?

When Brexit is done, it's done.  I think even the Party itself understands that.  And just as the LibDems are now made up of many disenchanted Tory and Labour supporters, so too is the Brexit Party.  They'll perhaps disperse back to their ideological parties of choice IF Brexit is solved.

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Everything hinges on Brexit, that's evidently true. Now we've seen from polls that a significant number of Conservative party members would be prepared to sacrifice the union, and even the party itself, if it meant Brexit being delivered, but I don't believe that 'Brexit at all costs' is a majority view in the country by a long shot. This is where the Brexit Party will struggle, IMHO. Even those that voted for them in the European elections may want to know what these Brexit Party MPs intend to do after we've left the EU.

Call a General Election?  And return to their Traditional Party Homes?  War over.  Back to the basics of Domestic Right/Centre/Left politics?

When Brexit is done, it's done.  I think even the Party itself understands that.  And just as the LibDems are now made up of many disenchanted Tory and Labour supporters, so too is the Brexit Party.  They'll perhaps disperse back to their ideological parties of choice IF Brexit is solved.  

But MPs can't just up and leave. (Well technically they could, and we'd have a load of by-elections, but I doubt that would happen.) Your MP is your repesentative for a good while, and I think that might make people pause before voting for what until now has been a one-issue protest party in a general election. A number won't care. A number just want Brexit. But I think many will want to know what their MPs plans to do after Brexit, whether it goes ahead or not.

As I said, I don't think 'Brexit at any cost' is that common a standpoint.

Back to the point about which party you'd vote for on non-Brexit issues and still vote for them if they were dead set on Brexit.... or vice versa, a Brexiteer voting for a Remain candidate because they happen to champion a domestic issue they agree with. Don't predict much of that happening, Luckless. Just can't see many voters doing that kinda thing.

The only voters the Brexit Party have to convince about an after-Brexit reality are people that won't vote for them anyway. Those that want Brexit will. It's gotten to that stage: 'Get me the hell out of this thing now!'

SecretFly wrote:Back to the point about which party you'd vote for on non-Brexit issues and still vote for them if they were dead set on Brexit.... or vice versa, a Brexiteer voting for a Remain candidate because they happen to champion a domestic issue they agree with.  Don't predict much of that happening, Luckless.  Just can't see many voters doing that kinda thing.

The only voters the Brexit Party have to convince about an after-Brexit reality are people that won't vote for them anyway.  Those that want Brexit will.  It's gotten to that stage:  'Get me the hell out of this thing now!'  

Would they? All of them? 'No manifesto, we'll get you out, but you'll have to wait and see what we've got planned once we're out?'

If - if - we take parliament as a cross-section of the UK, then there are a good number of people who want to leave the EU but are dead set against leaving with no deal.

Remember not everybody eats, sleeps and gives a toss about Brexit. Not quite 70% of people in the UK even bothered their arse to vote. There are much more who care about manifestos (that is why political party's bother with them) and this is where Brexit Party will be picked apart. What are their plans outwith Brexit for the NHS, for public spending, for housing, for policing, for the budget, for pensions, for future trade deals and a heck of a lot more.

The Brexit Party is in all but name UKIP2. UKIP1 failed miserably in general elections and I don't see UKIP2 fairing any better.

EDIT: On that last line perhaps harsh but I will be gobsmacked if Brexit Party win more than 5 seats.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Remember not everybody eats, sleeps and gives a toss about Brexit. Not quite 70% of people in the UK even bothered their arse to vote. There are much more who care about manifestos (that is why political party's bother with them) and this is where Brexit Party will be picked apart. What are their plans outwith Brexit for the NHS, for public spending, for housing, for policing, for the budget, for pensions, for future trade deals and a heck of a lot more.

The Brexit Party is in all but name UKIP2. UKIP1 failed miserably in general elections and I don't see UKIP2 fairing any better.

EDIT: On that last line perhaps harsh but I will be gobsmacked if Brexit Party win more than 5 seats.

Yeah. They'll get votes everywhere but seldom enough anywhere to get close to a seat. They are purposely avoiding publishing a manifesto because they know it'll be ripped apart, and it feels as if there is not enough pressure on them to do so.

I already said their rivals will attack lack of detail on extras in a manifesto.  Brexit, the Party, is after all a party created for one specific purpose.  So of course the people that want to kill them off will go after them on the grounds you said.

I'm not denying that.  But Brexit IS number one issue - and I still think voters will want CLEAR ambitions from all parties on that issue.  It's too central a point.  If people feel they want Brexit, the parties that are clear on it will get their votes, and vice versa for the people who hate the idea.  

But no party will get off the hook.  They've had their 'maybe we will and maybe we won't' time.  So if a party tries to smother their duplicity on Brexit by focusing on other issues and doing a 'maybe we will and maybe we won't' on Brexit -in order to pick up both sides of the divide - I think people can detect that fudge now.  

The time for 'maybe we will and maybe we won't' is over.  Indeed, a General Election before Brexit is solved will be clear proof that Brexit is indeed the main issue, and that the public are being asked to solve the stalemate.

SecretFly wrote:I already said their rivals will attack lack of detail on extras in a manifesto.  Brexit, the Party, is after all a party created for one specific purpose.  So of course the people that want to kill them off will go after them on the grounds you said.

I'm not denying that.  But Brexit IS number one issue - and I still think voters will want CLEAR ambitions from all parties on that issue.  It's too central a point.  If people feel they want Brexit, the parties that are clear on it will get their votes, and vice versa for the people who hate the idea.  

But no party will get off the hook.  They've had their 'maybe we will and maybe we won't' time.  So if a party tries to smother their duplicity on Brexit by focusing on other issues and doing a 'maybe we will and maybe we won't' on Brexit -in order to pick up both sides of the divide - I think people can detect that fudge now.  

The time for 'maybe we will and maybe we won't' is over.  Indeed, a General Election before Brexit is solved will be clear proof that Brexit is indeed the main issue, and that the public are being asked to solve the stalemate.

By my experience though people want to know about future plans - it is pivotal. It is akin to Scottish Independence. People (in 2014) were asked to vote on the whole package such as not just act of being independent but the thereafter such as currency, EU membership, pensions, the NHS etc etc. That will be the same with Brexit. And like has been said before if their intent is on a No Deal Brexit then they are as good as sunk on that front. I have not heard (in any detail) how they'd intend on implementing Brexit in a way it gets through Parliament. And yes I realise neither has anyone else but people will tend to back the trusted parties rather than a party with little substance on other policies. It is a bit like (it appears) people are not willing to give Labour a chance over the Tories.

The trusted parties weren't trusted in the latest Nationwide elections.  That's the dilemma.  That's what has the Traditional (trusted) parties pulling their hair out.  'Which way do we go?  What do our majorities really want?  If we say Hard Brexit we might lose our majority.  If we say Soft Brexit we might lose our majority. '

They can do base studies and polls as much as they like, they know that the polls are unpredictable and often downright wrong, proven again and again.  So they're afraid....because their natural reaction is trying to sit on the fence on many issues, try to glide to some mythic Centre where supposedly most voters are.  Well it seems on Brexit, most voters are not somewhere in the middle.  They are exhausted by the mushy middle.  Even the traditional Middle Party is gone die-hard Remain. ... and picking up votes because of it.  Voters want parties that will give them a clear route to either side of Brexit.

Now that's not to say that any party might then fudge if all again when elected. No party should ever have the Trusted tag placed on them.  Even the Brexit Party might do a fudge if they got in, but if you want those votes - what did Truss say up there earlier? - vision.

Voters really don't want to much boardroom detail really.  They want a vision they can cling to.  'Maybe we will and maybe we won't' won't work.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Apart from all the issues over leadership, antisemitism, general incompetence etc the studied attempts by Labour to glue their backsides to the top of the fence has lead to them pishing everyone off.

One recent poll has Corbyn getting the worst approval rating for an opposition leader on record.

SecretFly wrote:The trusted parties weren't trusted in the latest Nationwide elections.  That's the dilemma.  That's what has the Traditional (trusted) parties pulling their hair out.  'Which way do we go?  What do our majorities really want?  If we say Hard Brexit we might lose our majority.  If we say Soft Brexit we might lose our majority. '

They can do base studies and polls as much as they like, they know that the polls are unpredictable and often downright wrong, proven again and again.  So they're afraid....because their natural reaction is trying to sit on the fence on many issues, try to glide to some mythic Centre where supposedly most voters are.  Well it seems on Brexit, most voters are not somewhere in the middle.  They are exhausted by the mushy middle.  Even the traditional Middle Party is gone die-hard Remain. ... and picking up votes because of it.  Voters want parties that will give them a clear route to either side of Brexit.

Now that's not to say that any party might then fudge if all again when elected. No party should ever have the Trusted tag placed on them.  Even the Brexit Party might do a fudge if they got in, but if you want those votes - what did Truss say up there earlier? - vision.

Voters really don't want to much boardroom detail really.  They want a vision they can cling to.  'Maybe we will and maybe we won't' won't work.

The point is that so many voters are blind to the facts or ignore them. The Tories have been beyond rank rotten for years now but still got enough votes to win the last election. They've made a complete Horlicks over Brexit multiple times yet they are still in power and now they are preparing to throw their support wholly behind Coco the Clown to be the next PM. And despite all of that polls still have them as the most popular party (well in England and Wales anyway). Do not get me wrong the door is gapingly widely open for a new party but not one led by the loathed Milk Shake Kid. And not one not fully thinking through the future. I could easily see them winning many seats if they had a competent and respected leader and whose sole reason for being is rubbishing the EU. Politics is a far broader spectrum than that.

lostinwales wrote:Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Apart from all the issues over leadership, antisemitism, general incompetence etc the studied attempts by Labour to glue their backsides to the top of the fence has lead to them pishing everyone off.

.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The trusted parties weren't trusted in the latest Nationwide elections.  That's the dilemma.  That's what has the Traditional (trusted) parties pulling their hair out.  'Which way do we go?  What do our majorities really want?  If we say Hard Brexit we might lose our majority.  If we say Soft Brexit we might lose our majority. '

They can do base studies and polls as much as they like, they know that the polls are unpredictable and often downright wrong, proven again and again.  So they're afraid....because their natural reaction is trying to sit on the fence on many issues, try to glide to some mythic Centre where supposedly most voters are.  Well it seems on Brexit, most voters are not somewhere in the middle.  They are exhausted by the mushy middle.  Even the traditional Middle Party is gone die-hard Remain. ... and picking up votes because of it.  Voters want parties that will give them a clear route to either side of Brexit.

Now that's not to say that any party might then fudge if all again when elected. No party should ever have the Trusted tag placed on them.  Even the Brexit Party might do a fudge if they got in, but if you want those votes - what did Truss say up there earlier? - vision.

Voters really don't want to much boardroom detail really.  They want a vision they can cling to.  'Maybe we will and maybe we won't' won't work.

The point is that so many voters are blind to the facts or ignore them. The Tories have been beyond rank rotten for years now but still got enough votes to win the last election. They've made a complete Horlicks over Brexit multiple times yet they are still in power and now they are preparing to throw their support wholly behind Coco the Clown to be the next PM. And despite all of that polls still have them as the most popular party (well in England and Wales anyway). Do not get me wrong the door is gapingly widely open for a new party but not one led by the loathed Milk Shake Kid. And not one not fully thinking through the future. I could easily see them winning many seats if they had a competent and respected leader and whose sole reason for being is rubbishing the EU. Politics is a far broader spectrum than that.

In 'England and Wales' maybe, but not in England and in Wales!

I hate this 'England and Wales' nonsense. 'Snowdon is the highest peak in England and Wales.' Which part of it is in England?

Corbyn's woeful approval rating only matters if Johnson gets the UK out before 31st October.

His band of deluded bigots have misplaced faith me thinks..

Worth remembering of the 50 target seats the Lib Dems have..

40 are Conservative....

With current polls they take all 40...

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

I hate this 'England and Wales' nonsense. 'Snowdon is the highest peak in England and Wales.' Which part of it is in England?

The bit that's not in Scotland?

Not very impressive though anyway. Everest is the highest peak in Nepal and Ireland. Beat that, suckers!