Ireland WC

First topic message reminder :

Bit early i know.
Will update squads etc once they are announced.
And add the fixtures when I get a spare 10 mins.

Will Addison has been called up to the training squad

Pete330v2 wrote:More of the same turgid tomkite from Ireland and I've now turned off. Static ball, clueless defence and some of the undroppables looking easy to cut loose. Boke

Wise move, as this is getting scary for Ireland. Is it too late to get a new coach...

No9 wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:More of the same turgid tomkite from Ireland and I've now turned off. Static ball, clueless defence and some of the undroppables looking easy to cut loose. Boke

Wise move, as this is getting scary for Ireland. Is it too late to get a new coach...

No not too late.... but we'll have to pay him off obviously for breaking his contract (Farrell). It might be worth it with recent Irish 'displays'.

But we'll hold our nerve for a while yet. There is a certain peace of mind when you've hit rock bottom. At least you know you've arrived at a destination. Now where to next? Oh yes, a World Cup. We'll get better. We haven't done the yodelling traing yet.

What on earth has happened to Ireland? Are you trying out Scotland Scotland who are currently out Frenching the french?

Is there a risk that Scotland and Ireland put too much stock into our game together and this leaves the back door open for Japan?

If Ireland had won today, then would n o 1 team in the world. 

Was the thought of that too much pressure for Ireland? Did they not want to be no 1 team in the world before the Rugby World Cup?

Commiserations. That must have been a tough watch.

majesticimperialman wrote:If Ireland had won today, then would n o 1 team in the world. 

Was the thought of that too much pressure for Ireland? Did they not want to be no 1 team in the world before the Rugby World Cup?

I personally dont really care about the ranking, its probably better not to be 1. I dont think the team was particularly bothered either. These games to me are completely meaningless especially if we have a good RWC.

Ireland???? WTAF? Is this a blip or did you peak too soon. Puts Welsh victory last weekend in context. England made t o look much better than they are and while I thought they'd win I didnt think that Ireland would capitulate, whats going on?

majesticimperialman wrote:If Ireland had won today, then would n o 1 team in the world. 

Was the thought of that too much pressure for Ireland? Did they not want to be no 1 team in the world before the Rugby World Cup?

Read the sagain and then smack yourself in the chops

This result will galvanise the squad. Same happened to the All Blacks a few weeks ago. I expect to see a precise, efficient and determined Ireland team next weekend

Every game matters. Try saying to Cian or Mako these are only warm ups and it doesn't matter if your injury means you miss the plane.
Schmidt was shocked that yet again his pack couldn't compete with the power of England, and he didn't really know why. That game has to reinforce the negativity from the first 6N game and confirm to Joe he's leaving just in time.
Even Eddie Jones was struggling to hide his glee and had to resort to a caustic remark about the Ashes to reassert his irascible reputation.

There are two ways of looking at it and both are strange.

1.  We're just honestly spent as a team/squad.  Gone, wasted, dead in the water, washed up. - Just a squad run out of players/ideas to compete at a high standard over a sufficient period.

2.  We truly are working on a very different prep schedule to the rest of our rivals.  We're weeks behind on the levels both Wales and England have already got to.  
If that is/were true, then that also seems strange to me because you'd imagine all sides would be familiar with best practices over the years for these events.  Teams would learn from each other's experiences.  Should prep schedules diverge so much IF that is some kind of genuine reason for Ireland's dreadful continuation of dreadful rugby from January to the last Italy game to now?

To tell the truth, I don't know which it is.  As always with Ireland so far this year...the next game might give us some clues....... *snore*

The Great Aukster wrote:Every game matters. Try saying to Cian or Mako these are only warm ups and it doesn't matter if your injury means you miss the plane.
Schmidt was shocked that yet again his pack couldn't compete with the power of England, and he didn't really know why. That game has to reinforce the negativity from the first 6N game and confirm to Joe he's leaving just in time.
Even Eddie Jones was struggling to hide his glee and had to resort to a caustic remark about the Ashes to reassert his irascible reputation.

Don't get me wrong this result is extremely worrying and England were magnificent but this was basically our first game. That game against Italy was a complete and utter waste of time, watching the preseason game between Navan and Young Munster last weekend had more intensity. I'll judge them after the game against Wales.

LeinsterFan4life wrote: I'll judge them after the game against Wales.

That's okay. But by then other sides will also be judging themselves by that stage. Perhaps Wales will be saying they've done enough and start taking the pressure off their players for performance levels by then. How do we judge Ireland accurately then if they win a game against a lethargic Wales?

Ireland are simply either genuinely as bad as they look or they are being extremely ballsy about holding off virtually everything they hope to throw at the WC. Have they really the nerve to be extremely ballsy about bluffing for so many months? Or are they just way off the pace of the best sides and no matter how they puff and pant, they simply are incapable of reaching it?

SecretFly wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote: I'll judge them after the game against Wales.

That's okay.  But by then other sides will also be judging themselves by that stage.  Perhaps Wales will be saying they've done enough and start taking the pressure off their players for performance levels by then.  How do we judge Ireland accurately then if they win a game against a lethargic Wales?

Ireland are simply either genuinely as bad as they look or they are being extremely ballsy about holding off virtually everything they hope to throw at the WC.  Have they really the nerve to be extremely ballsy about bluffing for so many months?  Or are they just way off the pace of the best sides and no matter how they puff and pant, they simply are incapable of reaching it?

I don't think they are holding back, I just see this as pre season. It'll take a few games to get up to speed. Even England aren't at 100% yet and that's terrifying!

Well that’s a weird score, but I hope there’s more of the same next weekend.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote: I'll judge them after the game against Wales.

That's okay.  But by then other sides will also be judging themselves by that stage.  Perhaps Wales will be saying they've done enough and start taking the pressure off their players for performance levels by then.  How do we judge Ireland accurately then if they win a game against a lethargic Wales?

Ireland are simply either genuinely as bad as they look or they are being extremely ballsy about holding off virtually everything they hope to throw at the WC.  Have they really the nerve to be extremely ballsy about bluffing for so many months?  Or are they just way off the pace of the best sides and no matter how they puff and pant, they simply are incapable of reaching it?

I don't think they are holding back, I just see this as pre season. It'll take a few games to get up to speed. Even England aren't at 100% yet and that's terrifying!

That IS terrifying.  But even Wales mean business.  You know it.  They're just ready for the WC.  Now these sides Both have coaches that know how to prepare for big events.  They just do.  They know how hard to push players, when to ease off, how much gym work etc.....  
That's what I was alluding to earlier.  Why do Ireland always feel their prep (attitude and timeframes + locations and methods) is good enough for a World Cup?  Why do we always come with the tone that warmups are meaningless?  We don't have the leisure to have such an attitude or to think our ways are the best ways.  To date, they've proven not to be.  We don't learn from others, we stubbornly keep doing our own thing (it would appear) and to date it has never worked in a WC.

Any news on the missing Irish rugby team in South West London?

mikey_dragon wrote:Well that’s a weird score, but I hope there’s more of the same next weekend.

It's only a warmup. Don't fret. Relax mike. Have a Hamlet cigar.

SecretFly wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote: I'll judge them after the game against Wales.

That's okay.  But by then other sides will also be judging themselves by that stage.  Perhaps Wales will be saying they've done enough and start taking the pressure off their players for performance levels by then.  How do we judge Ireland accurately then if they win a game against a lethargic Wales?

Ireland are simply either genuinely as bad as they look or they are being extremely ballsy about holding off virtually everything they hope to throw at the WC.  Have they really the nerve to be extremely ballsy about bluffing for so many months?  Or are they just way off the pace of the best sides and no matter how they puff and pant, they simply are incapable of reaching it?

I don't think they are holding back, I just see this as pre season. It'll take a few games to get up to speed. Even England aren't at 100% yet and that's terrifying!

That IS terrifying.  But even Wales mean business.  You know it.  They're just ready for the WC.  Now these sides Both have coaches that know how to prepare for big events.  They just do.  They know how hard to push players, when to ease off, how much gym work etc.....  
That's what I was alluding to earlier.  Why do Ireland always feel their prep (attitude and timeframes + locations and methods) is good enough for a World Cup?  Why do we always come with the tone that warmups are meaningless?  We don't have the leisure to have such an attitude or to think our ways are the best ways.  To date, they've proven not to be.  We don't learn from others, we stubbornly keep doing our own thing (it would appear) and to date it has never worked in a WC.

All I can say is we have to trust Joe and his team know best, if we fail yet again at the world cup, I'm sure the warm ups will be looked at.

SecretFly wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well that’s a weird score, but I hope there’s more of the same next weekend.

It's only a warmup.  Don't fret.  Relax mike.  Have a Hamlet cigar.

I’m hoping (praying) that we’ll see a much changed Wales team next week. Give some more fringe players a game and not risk a number of the first choice guys. I don’t think we need to go full strength in every warm up game. Plus, we need to try some new options at 10 because we’ve only got Biggar as an experienced regular at the moment, since Anscombe got crocked.

It would be a remarkable misjudgement to believe Ireland just became a poor team overnight. There is so much talent both in the squad and the coaching staff that I wouldn’t bet against a resurgent win against wales in the next match.

The Oracle wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well that’s a weird score, but I hope there’s more of the same next weekend.

It's only a warmup.  Don't fret.  Relax mike.  Have a Hamlet cigar.

I’m hoping (praying) that we’ll see a much changed Wales team next week. Give some more fringe players a game and not risk a number of the first choice guys. I don’t think we need to go full strength in every warm up game. Plus, we need to try some new options at 10 because we’ve only got Biggar as an experienced regular at the moment, since Anscombe got crocked.

I agree

I would be very excited not to see Biggar in the 23. As would most of our Irish mates. I have a good feeling about what a few of our fringe players could potentially do. Tomas Williams James Davies and Jarrod Evans would be players I’d like to see start next weekend.

Jesus you guys are working in reverse as fast as we are.
Wtf is the gameplan??

alive555 wrote:Jesus you guys are working in reverse as fast as we are.
Wtf is the gameplan??

I really don’t think any fan should be paying too much heed to warm up games. There are plenty of objectives far more important to players and coaches than the score line

I think we'll see the real Irish team next week, if not then time is running out for them.

Ireland aren't washed up or spent or any of that balls....but I honestly do wonder about Schmidt's commitment and how that may have undermined the drive and ambition. Thoughts Irishmen?

All jokes aside the Japanese will think qualification for 1/4s is on I expect.

When Wales lost their first game against England. AWJ said the lads could be a bit rusty as it is the first game. But we cannot really use that as an excuse because we are all professional players.

I cannot understand why Ireland played so bad. I wanted England to win, But i really thought that Ireland would make it a must tighter game today.

It was really a rout in the end I do not believe Ireland will play so bad in the Rugby World Cup. It is like these warm up games do no matter in the end. I all ways thought that every game mattered Friendly or not.

As much as I wish we could, we can't write a hammering like that off. I know there was talk that we were training hard through the week and we may not have expected to win today but the interviews from Schmidt and Best tell you that that was never in the script. It's genuinely hard to single any player out as the collective performance was so utterly abject. I can't believe we'll be that bad again but then again we could have another 2007 on our hands.

To be fair no Sexton does rather change it. Any team beating Ireland without Jonny needs to take a quick reality check.

Pie wrote:Ireland aren't washed up or spent or any of that balls....but I honestly do wonder about Schmidt's commitment and how that may have undermined the drive and ambition. Thoughts Irishmen?

I don't really think Irish players are still using boxes of Kleenex to dry the tears.  Nope, it's just a squad either not meeting expectations of coaching team, a coaching team limited in ability to gain proper endeavour by players or a team still a few weeks behind in their preparations.  WC is too big a prize for players or Schmidt to be still going to therapy about his leaving.  
We simply ain't able or we ain't trying.

Must be aint trying then, or suddenly the team that chastened the ABs 2 years ago isn't able anymore (without Sexton)

The most recent Ireland - the one that ended two 18 match winning streaks and beat everybody one way or another - had a collective belief and the muscle to squeeze the life out of the opposition. They were relentless with position and possession.

Now the question is can they find that belief again or are they done? As an England fan I think we have found a way of breaking through that pressure game after a number of years where there has been little between the two teams, then a couple when Ireland were better.

I also think that you can't read too much into todays game, and that Ireland have not become a bad team overnight, but there does seem to be a lot of players who are past their best and too much reliance on an increasingly fragile Sexton.

Pie wrote:Must be aint trying then, or suddenly the team that chastened the ABs 2 years ago isn't able anymore (without Sexton)

I keep hearing Sexton's comment in my head when I experience these performances this year.  After that 2018, which was a very good year for him (Province and International) he said something about 'one more goal' for him.
It's the only thing that keeps my spirits up.  That World Cup assault really does seem to be outweighing all other thoughts for this Irish side.  That level of dark single minded drive can distract players from the present and the consequences.
Now of course you could say all teams and many players could be in that mood of 'one more goal'.  But it's just a mix of Sexton's brooding personality and that full focus desire to give everything to one last goal....only thing that keeps a slight smile on my lips as I witness the Horror shows.

Will Sexton play in Cardiff?

TightHEAD wrote:Will Sexton play in Cardiff?

H
e as too surely, or how else will he get to know if he  
smatch fitness.

SecretFly wrote:

Pie wrote:Must be aint trying then, or suddenly the team that chastened the ABs 2 years ago isn't able anymore (without Sexton)

I keep hearing Sexton's comment in my head when I experience these performances this year.  After that 2018, which was a very good year for him (Province and International) he said something about 'one more goal' for him.
It's the only thing that keeps my spirits up.  That World Cup assault really does seem to be outweighing all other thoughts for this Irish side.  That level of dark single minded drive can distract players from the present and the consequences.
Now of course you could say all teams and many players could be in that mood of 'one more goal'.  But it's just a mix of Sexton's brooding personality and that full focus desire to give everything to one last goal....only thing that keeps a slight smile on my lips as I witness the Horror shows.

He brings a palpable intensity to any team...when is he fit?

I do believe that if Ireland had won today they would be number 1 in the world.

Wales at the moment are number 1 in the world.

If Ireland win next week, will they be number 1 because they beat Wales. If they beat Wales that is.

majesticimperialman wrote:I do believe that if Ireland had won today they would be number 1 in the world.

Wales at the moment are number 1 in the world.

If Ireland win next week, will they be number 1 because they beat Wales. If they beat Wales that is.

Result for the no4 team in the world to beat the team at No 2 though, well done.

majesticimperialman wrote: also think that you can't read too much into todays game, and that Ireland have not become a bad team overnight, but there does seem to be a lot of players who are past their best and too much reliance on an increasingly fragile Sexton.

Why not? I was an international after all. O r do we play international's these days for nothing?

Spot on.... they have been slipping steadily since the 6 Nations (IMO).

No9 wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote: also think that you can't read too much into todays game, and that Ireland have not become a bad team overnight, but there does seem to be a lot of players who are past their best and too much reliance on an increasingly fragile Sexton.

Why not? I was an international after all. O r do we play international's these days for nothing?

Spot on.... they have been slipping steadily since the 6 Nations (IMO).

Slight technical correction.  They have hit rock bottom.  The slipping is over.  Even if the Number 1 side in the world destroys us in both upcoming games, that will only be what the world now expects.  So it won't be adding to any shock levels.  We are in the sump.  We are in the pit.  You can't varnish it that we're slipping and sliding anywhere.  We've arrived.

majesticimperialman wrote: also think that you can't read too much into todays game, and that Ireland have not become a bad team overnight, but there does seem to be a lot of players who are past their best and too much reliance on an increasingly fragile Sexton.

Why not? I was an international after all. O r do we play international's these days for nothing?

Well there were definitely a lot of bad performances. Im not convinced yet the team is as bad as the performance today but even for a fairly meaningless fixture it was pretty poor so not good. Still going to Japan though and cant wait.

I would say to the Irish.....don't panic! A serious wake up call yes, but Ireland can turn this around. Ireland clearly had not tapered off their training whereas England were set to go. Add in that this was England's gun XV (not sure where that phrase came from?) with several of our best players playing together for the first time. Manu, Billy, Maro, Joe all adding serious power not to mention the likes of Marler doing ok and the 1st time both Curry and Underhill have been fit together. Only Mako missing.

All in all a bit of a freak result, but Ireland will be 200% better for this next weekend. You have class players and this will surely sharpen their focus this week. Let's see how they do against Wales before writing them off.

More or less agree but jury is out until they start to turn it around

Watching the highlights last night, the big difference between the teams was Ireland’s defensive positioning. They weren’t rushing the line, and their alignment and body positions were leaving gaps that England gleefully exploited.

That’s peculiar, because the team were mostly familiar with each other, Farrell has been in place as defensive coach for a while and their defensive system was pretty good.

It makes me wonder what Ireland have in reserve. Is there a new system that they’re just not ready to reveal yet? Are they still in full training mode and the whole team was just a bit heavy-legged?

If not, Ireland are in trouble, and not just for the RWC. But it would be surprising if there wasn’t more to come.

Nobody implodes with as much beauty as an Irish side.  Some teams/squads just don't have the players /resources/coaches etc to compete....and they take some helluva beatings because of it.  So their implosions are more predictable, less dramatic and less beautiful because of it.

Ireland, amongst top sides, does weird implosions like no other top side can manage...although Australia tried it a few weeks back .  Most top sides no matter how torrid a time they are having, they manage to cling in there and at least keep some pride in the fight.  Ireland, when they know they've been beaten, they just seem to down tools and act like a pack of disturbed geese, fluffing and flailing with absolutely no fortitude to at least endure with shape and reason.

That being said...England are the side they are too.  You can't do that much focus on Ireland because it cheats England of the praise that should be coming their way and the ways of their mad scientist leader, Jones.  England appears to be bubbling for the show to come.  You can only salute such readiness.  Fate will dictate how far they go but it appears it won't be from any lack of intent or readiness from them as a squad.

Collapse2005 wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote: also think that you can't read too much into todays game, and that Ireland have not become a bad team overnight, but there does seem to be a lot of players who are past their best and too much reliance on an increasingly fragile Sexton.

Why not? I was an international after all. O r do we play international's these days for nothing?

Well there were definitely a lot of bad performances. Im not convinced yet the team is as bad as the performance today but even for a fairly meaningless fixture it was pretty poor so not good. Still going to Japan though and cant wait.

Hey guys,
Pardon me for saying so, but I agree that from an Ireland pov, there is not much to be taken from this match. Joe Schmidt was on the money when he described what appeared to be a malaise about the team. Hard to know why, but I doubt Ireland went from good to bad in just a few months. The ABs a few weeks ago against Wallabies, had an off week but then returned to form in the following match as the Wallabies had their off week (though, I think we would normally expect the ABs to be the Wallabies in a meaningful head to head right now).

I think in RWC years there is so much Rugby, players can't be switched on all the time. Once England started rolling, most of the Ireland players were kind of switched off. I can't recall an Ireland defense so ragged and slow.

I think so much of what makes Ireland run well goes through the 9 and 10. Conor Murray when playing well is one of the best in the world, but has a lot of miles on him. Same for Sexton (Ross Byrne was clearly struggling). How Ireland replace them is a discussion for the future, but I would keep them as healthy as possible for the next two months.

Poorfour wrote:Watching the highlights last night, the big difference between the teams was Ireland’s defensive positioning. They weren’t rushing the line, and their alignment and body positions were leaving gaps that England gleefully exploited.

That’s peculiar, because the team were mostly familiar with each other, Farrell has been in place as defensive coach for a while and their defensive system was pretty good.

It makes me wonder what Ireland have in reserve. Is there a new system that they’re just not ready to reveal yet? Are they still in full training mode and the whole team was just a bit heavy-legged?

If not, Ireland are in trouble, and not just for the RWC. But it would be surprising if there wasn’t more to come.

This is pretty much the main point.  The thing that frustrates - and/or intrigues - me most.  You just know, in your heart of hearts, that all coaches attached to Ireland (a good few with long and distinguished careers) - all of them must KNOW that it's not smart rugby Ireland are playing.  They have to know it's not sufficient to meet a side like England or any top side.  They just have to know it's not enough - and the players aren't to blame - they are playing the shapes they are being trained to maintain....
.... so yes, you can only wonder why this Ireland side seems so at sea technically with coaches of the calibre of Schmidt and Farrell....

...but holding off full intensity with any new ideas is to me, at this point, bloody still stupid.  Just play it the way you intend playing in a WC and allow the 'real' A game to be honed and modified accordingly - IF a more intense version of Ireland really exist anymore in the shadows.

The summer before the 2007 World Cup, England lost 58-10 and 55-22 to South Africa. We then lost 36-0 to the Boks in the pool stages. We pulled ourselves together for two matches - against Australia and France - and made the final. France had a similar rocky road in 2011 to the final.

Ireland are way off their best but, with players who have registered big wins, they are capable of doing so again.