Ireland WC

First topic message reminder :

Bit early i know.
Will update squads etc once they are announced.
And add the fixtures when I get a spare 10 mins.

Will Addison has been called up to the training squad

Collapse2005 wrote:More or less agree but jury is out until they start to turn it around

Todays result will be better judged by the resolve they can create in the next match at Millenium. On its own it can be set aside as a one off where they didnt get a lot out of it.

In terms of a World cup win, winning at Millenium or the return match is a must. Schmidt needs to use the match, or at least one of the next two as his primary dress rehearsal. Thats why Eden park was critical for us after Perth. A side needs to know it can lift when it needs to, and three knockouts in a row is a big ask, confidence rather than experimenting now key to Irish chances.

True

I think Ireland are aiming to peak for the Scotland game and writing off everything beforehand. Get through the group in a good place and its a one off game to get to the semis. That seems to be the plan.

Hope so but Extremely risky tactics if so.

Plus...it infers two more drubbings to look forward to.

Plus... Scotland aren't a top three or four side right now.  Peaking for the express purpose of beating them doesn't presume you have enough peak when harder hitters meet us.  Peaking for one of the Welsh games would be brighter in my opinion and then attempting to sustain that peak level into the pools and beyond.

Seems too late for that though.  All minds seem to be obsessionally focused on WC itself in Irish camp.  Strange and risky prep work.

Andy Farrell has his work cut out because defense was terrible

Didn’t get to watch the game. Just watching the BBC highlights now. Six lineouts lost for Ireland though? What happened, as that’s pretty surprising?

England did mucho homework?  

I'm not much of a stat man, but I've often heard tell about the high number of tries Ireland tend to score off well placed lineout wins.  If statistically true (and sure enough the English backroom computer guys will undoubtedly have all evidence) then paying close attention there would be a premium.

Plan B!  Plan B, my Kingdom for a Plan B, as Schmidt cried whilst entering the tunnel......

One thing about Schmidt... he's proven he can surprise with a shrug of the shoulder.  

When he arrived with Ireland in the beginning, we were all delirious that we'd finally see an Ireland play the kind of stuff Leinster were then famous for.  And what did we get?  We got rugby so slow and attritional that cobwebs often attached themselves mid game.  But we started winning again....and Biggly!  And for a while none of us - fans, players, opposing teams - could figure out how he was doing it.  It was magic.  No rugby played but winning.

The poetry/fantasy would be if in his final big outing as Ireland coach, he was prepping the ground to completely surprise again and Finally play these Irish players more like the Leinster side of his tenure.  But first the lame, lame duck feint right up to main event.

Well, as I say, that's the fantasy I cling to anyway.  The reality is I'm sure much much, much more mundane.

There are many valid reasons as to why Ireland lost to England yesterday; training, friendly mentality and mostly the fact that England are excellent. However this team now holds the record for a defeat to England. If you're not embarassed by that as a player representing Ireland then in my opinion there is something very wrong.

Collapse2005 wrote:Andy Farrell has his work cut out because defense was terrible

Defence and line out. Scrum was solid. Didn’t deal with their flankers well.

Considering defence, line out and breakdown were the backbone of this team winning recent GSs and beating the ABs twice I would see this as an easy fix.

Henderson calling the lineout never goes well

Collapse2005 wrote:I think Ireland are aiming to peak for the Scotland game and writing off everything beforehand. Get through the group in a good place and its a one off game to get to the semis. That seems to be the plan.

I am sure every team is aiming to peak for the RWC. I am not sure that playing dreadfully is the best preparation though.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I think Ireland are aiming to peak for the Scotland game and writing off everything beforehand. Get through the group in a good place and its a one off game to get to the semis. That seems to be the plan.

I am sure every team is aiming to peak for the RWC. I am not sure that playing dreadfully is the best preparation though.

Despite all the talk of 'must win games' and all that, the results count for little if anything. Still better to be winning than losing though.

lostinwales wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I think Ireland are aiming to peak for the Scotland game and writing off everything beforehand. Get through the group in a good place and its a one off game to get to the semis. That seems to be the plan.

I am sure every team is aiming to peak for the RWC. I am not sure that playing dreadfully is the best preparation though.

Despite all the talk of 'must win games' and all that, the results count for little if anything. Still better to be winning than losing though.

These results do count for nothing. They are just practice for the real thing but any coach will tell you practicing doing something badly is worse than no practice at all.

lostinwales wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I think Ireland are aiming to peak for the Scotland game and writing off everything beforehand. Get through the group in a good place and its a one off game to get to the semis. That seems to be the plan.

I am sure every team is aiming to peak for the RWC. I am not sure that playing dreadfully is the best preparation though.

Despite all the talk of 'must win games' and all that, the results count for little if anything. Still better to be winning than losing though.

or at least competing rather than getting thrashed. I think you're allowed one of these during world cup prep, because the two sides will have other agendas than solely winning, but not two. A second is about pride, confidence, how much a side can give. if Ireland can beat Wales at Millennium then theyre back on track.

Taylorman wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I think Ireland are aiming to peak for the Scotland game and writing off everything beforehand. Get through the group in a good place and its a one off game to get to the semis. That seems to be the plan.

I am sure every team is aiming to peak for the RWC. I am not sure that playing dreadfully is the best preparation though.

Despite all the talk of 'must win games' and all that, the results count for little if anything. Still better to be winning than losing though.

or at least competing rather than getting thrashed. I think you're allowed one of these during world cup prep, because the two sides will have other agendas than solely winning, but not two. A second is about pride, confidence, how much a side can give. if Ireland can beat Wales at Millennium then theyre back on track.

Ireland are too good a team on too solid a foundation not to use this result for their benefit.

SecretFly wrote:England did mucho homework?  

I'm not much of a stat man, but I've often heard tell about the high number of tries Ireland tend to score off well placed lineout wins.  If statistically true (and sure enough the English backroom computer guys will undoubtedly have all evidence) then paying close attention there would be a premium.

Plan B!  Plan B, my Kingdom for a Plan B, as Schmidt cried whilst entering the tunnel......

George Kruis is a very good set piece forward, does all the traditional unflashy things. One of those is make the lineout work in defence and attack. Given the new lock partnership maybe he just caught Ireland a little disjointed. Kruis has his club colleague Itoje alongside him in the second row and his club mate at hooker for consistency. A pair of Quins props who'd be used to lifting together as well.

I did think once Toner came on that would sure up the Irish lineout though.

Itoje was very influential in the lineout steals; he was a nuisance from about the second or third Irish throw, and by the end was getting his hand to the ball at will.

One late lineout - I think the last lineout of the game - was both a measure of how completely England had cracked the Irish throw, and a bizarre spectacle in its own right. Itoje shuffled back a couple of yards with his lifters and started waving to Cronin as if to say “come on and throw, I know it’s going here.”

The ball went up, and so did Itoje, outjumping Toner and tipping it back to Heinz. Complete dominance.

Poorfour wrote:Itoje was very influential in the lineout steals; he was a nuisance from about the second or third Irish throw, and by the end was getting his hand to the ball at will.

One late lineout - I think the last lineout of the game - was both a measure of how completely England had cracked the Irish throw, and a bizarre spectacle in its own right. Itoje shuffled back a couple of yards with his lifters and started waving to Cronin as if to say “come on and throw, I know it’s going here.”

The ball went up, and so did Itoje, outjumping Toner and tipping it back to Heinz. Complete dominance.

What is also scary is the height he gets without lifters.

Well, what can I say. Congrats to England, they were better and hungrier in every aspect of the game bar 9 (there it was a question of which one was worse with Youngs having a nightmare).


Not great signs for Ireland at all. I think loosing to England at home wold not have been considered a biggie in the lead up to the RWC but the thrashing they received must leave some mental scares which will surely have an effect on their moral and makes the loss a biggie for me.

eirebilly wrote:Well, what can I say. Congrats to England, they were better and hungrier in every aspect of the game bar 9 (there it was a question of which one was worse with Youngs having a nightmare).

Not great signs for Ireland at all. I think loosing to England at home wold not have been considered a biggie in the lead up to the RWC but the thrashing they received must leave some mental scares which will surely have an effect on their moral and makes the loss a biggie for me.

Yes it was a bit too big a score not to have an impact however, I dont think all is lost at all.

Taylorman wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I think Ireland are aiming to peak for the Scotland game and writing off everything beforehand. Get through the group in a good place and its a one off game to get to the semis. That seems to be the plan.

I am sure every team is aiming to peak for the RWC. I am not sure that playing dreadfully is the best preparation though.

Despite all the talk of 'must win games' and all that, the results count for little if anything. Still better to be winning than losing though.

or at least competing rather than getting thrashed. I think you're allowed one of these during world cup prep, because the two sides will have other agendas than solely winning, but not two. A second is about pride, confidence, how much a side can give. if Ireland can beat Wales at Millennium then theyre back on track.

Thats probably reasonable enough

Here's what team I'd like to see on Saturday. Some people might say it's a knee jerk reaction but id like to see: Kilcoyne, Scannell, Furlong, Ryan, Toner, Beirne, Conan, VdF, Murray, Sexton, Conway, Henshaw, Farrell, Earls, Addison.

That's actually a decent team Maine Man although I am not sure I would start with Murray myself.

Who would you start at 9?

I thought about McGrath and Marmion but I think Murray needs some game time. But then again the same could be said about everyone that played on Saturday. Simple fact is I'm not a huge fan of Marmion and I think McGrath is a good impact sub

Link to what the Irish Mirror newspaper reckons the welsh team will be on this link, I posted it on the other thread.

https://www.606v2.com/t68211p700-wales-rwc-2019-thread#3835135

Maine man wrote:I thought about McGrath and Marmion but I think Murray needs some game time. But then again the same could be said about everyone that played on Saturday. Simple fact is I'm not a huge fan of Marmion and I think McGrath is a good impact sub

It would be ideal to have Murray at his best but we havent seen it in a while. I think Schmidt will persist with him and thats probably the right thing to do.

I like Marmion but I would have preferred Cooney. McGrath is very decent as well.

As much as I rate Murray, his distribution is getting slower and slower and he has not been at his best for some time.

Agree with you Eirebilly. I think Joe made a mistake by releasing Cooney. Was Carberry injured before Cooney was released or vice versa?

I think Cooney was released earlier but I cant be sure.

Just think that Cooney has good quick distribution and his kicking game is excellent.

Carbery was injured in the first game, Cooney was released in the first cull afterwards.

Reflecting on the game, there were obviously some plans that Ireland were experimenting with. Maybe Joe didn't actually give a stuff about the result or performance and wanted to see how the team would cope when things went completely awry!
Consistently calling a throw to the back against a tough English line must have been ordered from the outset, reinforced at halftime and again when the subs came on. Kicking away possession and not being particularly bothered about winning it back was another theme the opposite of the All Black slaying sides.
The backline was constantly in 'scramble' mode with some players seemingly lining out in the 'wrong' defensive position on purpose. The persistence with which Stockdale and to a lesser extent Larmour/Aki shot out of the defensive line had to be instructed rather than instinctive.
The lack of any pack presence outside the set piece with Furlong and Stander in particular totally anonymous, was so out of character that surely they had been told to coast?

Whatever the behind closed doors directives, these 'warm-up' games are in danger of undermining the very ethos of the sport if they are not the contest the paying public expect to witness.

I like the theories but even I as optimistic as I normally am re Ireland dont think Furlong and Stander were asked to coast. I think its a mix of not taking the game too seriously but also playing really badly.

You stand a really good chance of back to back wins if rumours of the wales likely line up is true then in front of your home crowd.

Well NZ got 47 put on them in Perth possibly for similar reasons as Ireland. Now its mental, particularly if Wales are experimenting as much as expected. Ireland has gifted another trial game to Walesto deepen their squad in that respect and if Ireland dont come back and beat this Welsh side 'emphatically' kiss their winning world cup chances goodbye. They will not have the confidence to go 3 knockouts.

Simple as that.

Lots of hysteria over last weekend. It wasn’t pretty and it looked like a major systems breakdown. Better to be doing this now than four weeks time. Given our group there is a very high probability we make the qf. All bets are off then

Rumours abound that Johnny might have some issues (and it’s not whether he supports the dubs v Kerry next weekend)

What is it about Ireland and RWC, just never get their timing right or is there a psyche issue. Had them as certain semi finalists if the Pools go as expected, now I think Scots will feel its on and so might the hosts

Pie wrote:What is it about Ireland and RWC, just never get their timing right or is there a psyche issue. Had them as certain semi finalists if the Pools go as expected, now I think Scots will feel its on and so might the hosts

Its a bit too soon to write them off, the RWC hasnt started yet.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Pie wrote:What is it about Ireland and RWC, just never get their timing right or is there a psyche issue. Had them as certain semi finalists if the Pools go as expected, now I think Scots will feel its on and so might the hosts

Its a bit too soon to write them off, the RWC hasnt started yet.

Far too early, but they do need to put the cup away for now and show they can fight, next match is about heart and resolve, regardless of the opposition side. And even then, Schmidts still got pool play to get their heads right, but then where does that leave their gameplan? Ireland are one of few that need to lead to compete. Tough few weeks ahead for sure.

Wow, was expecting us to lose, probably comfortably but not to that extent. The players had just come of a weeks warm weather training so were always going to be off the pace and England's power and pace against Wales showed we'd be up against it.

That said I was hoping to see the basics go well especially the set piece and by the sounds of it that was a shambles.

I get that they don't want to show anything in these games and are planning to peak in a few weeks time. However Best's post match comments are worrying indeed, it looks to me that they are not where they thought they would be at this stage and they can't seem to work out what is going on.

Given Ireland's recent history of shambolic RWC preperations (2007, 2011, 2015) I am getting a sinking feeling of deja vu ...      

By contrast England to a lesser extent Wales seem to have timed things to perfection and physically look in peak condition.

I honestly don't think Ireland can turn things around so much by the Scotland game. In fact at this stage I am hoping we can scrape through the group and then find some form for a QF. If there is a plan I think this must be it because although Schmidt says we need to hit the ground running for Scotland I think we have left far too much to do here.

Scotland have not looked that special in the warm ups either rodders.

I cant believe that the result at the weekend was Ireland purposely trying to keep their cards close to their chest pre RWC. That takes away from the excellent England performance. Ireland were just crushed by a better team on the day, England were ruthless. For me England got far more out of that match than Ireland did leaving Ireland a big task to get back to winning ways against Wales.

They say winning is a habit, well losing can be habit forming as well.

eirebilly wrote:

They say winning is a habit, well losing can be habit forming as well.

We know!  We know!  At the moment we are allegedly trying to break the habit.... though the rugby on display by ultra professionals makes me doubt it.

Anyway, as I said in another post.  I'm not fussed.  I'm calm.  Fate will now dictate our course from here.  Even if Wales wins both games easily, all we have is the patience now to wait for any upswing in fortunes.  It's worthless being annoyed.

rodders wrote:Wow, was expecting us to lose, probably comfortably but not to that extent. The players had just come of a weeks warm weather training so were always going to be off the pace and England's power and pace against Wales showed we'd be up against it.

That said I was hoping to see the basics go well especially the set piece and by the sounds of it that was a shambles.

I get that they don't want to show anything in these games and are planning to peak in a few weeks time. However Best's post match comments are worrying indeed, it looks to me that they are not where they thought they would be at this stage and they can't seem to work out what is going on.

Given Ireland's recent history of shambolic RWC preperations (2007, 2011, 2015) I am getting a sinking feeling of deja vu ...      

By contrast England to a lesser extent Wales seem to have timed things to perfection and physically look in peak condition.

I honestly don't think Ireland can turn things around so much by the Scotland game. In fact at this stage I am hoping we can scrape through the group and then find some form for a QF. If there is a plan I think this must be it because although Schmidt says we need to hit the ground running for Scotland I think we have left far too much to do here.

Personally I think our last two world cup preps were good. We won our group on both occasion beating Australia and France for the first time at the RWC for both. Yes we fell apart in the quarters but we were motoring up to that point. We looked in rude health after those two wins.

Maybe this time we need to peak in the quarters and not the group stages.

You were unlucky to come up against the best performance from both sides in 2011 and 2015 quarters. Wales were inspired in 2011 playing at a level much higher than they achieved in the tournament before or after that game.

The result was bad but these things happen. NZ lost by 20 something points a few weeks ago and won 36 - 0 the next week and they're well into their season!


Rugby is one of those games where if you have a weak link somewhere the opposition can have a field day exploiting it. I remember Munster away to Gloucester in last season's champions cup. Munster sent up a high ball and Gloucester couldn't deal with it so Munster kept doing it and got great reward from it, eventually winning 41-15. The lineout alone was worth about 20-30 points.


At the weekend England exploited Ireland's shambolic lineout and defence and well as Ireland's general sluggishness around the pitch. Major weaknesses but they are areas that can be improved.

profitius wrote:The result was bad but these things happen. NZ lost by 20 something points a few weeks ago and won 36 - 0 the next week and they're well into their season!


Rugby is one of those games where if you have a weak link somewhere the opposition can have a field day exploiting it. I remember Munster away to Gloucester in last season's champions cup. Munster sent up a high ball and Gloucester couldn't deal with it so Munster kept doing it and got great reward from it, eventually winning 41-15. The lineout alone was worth about 20-30 points.


At the weekend England exploited Ireland's shambolic lineout and defence and well as Ireland's general sluggishness around the pitch. Major weaknesses but they are areas that can be improved.

Thats a good point to be fair. Also our defense was the worst it has ever been. I cant see it being that bad in a key game, though you never know.

Collapse2005 wrote:
Maybe this time we need to peak in the quarters and not the group stages.

Well I hope so because I think we need a major turnaround to get things right for Scotland. Schmidt has repeatedly said we need to hit the ground running so I'm not sure this is what they were hoping for.

Bests comments about "thinking we were in a good place" sound ominous. Also Schmidt seemed to be fingerpointing at the S&C staff.

The players are looking gaunt and out of sorts similar to 2007, I'm hoping we haven't got this badly wrong.

The other thing is how powerful England look, but we knew what was coming and should have done better.

Whats the point of worrying though, we still should be good enough to beat Japan and Scotland. We won a summer tour in Japan two years ago in much hotter weather than we will face this September with a B team. We have a great record v Scotland 18 wins in last 24 games, however, we have never in over 100 years played them in a neutral venue. History will be made.

Then knock out games are a once off test. I'm sure they'll give it a lash and it will be fun to watch. I'm looking forward to it. Id still rather play SA or NZ than Wales or England in the quarters even if we are going backwards and everyone else is improving.

Joe has given a press conference -

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/joe-schmidt-unexpected-press-conference-explain-england-humiliation-416375?fbclid=IwAR1Civ1ZlsZA5ZwdBxs2s8k-7eWVDS9FnQABtMquoWzHLluqjROdH21uj8k