The Ashes - official thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

Seeing as this starts next week, I'll kick it off - the Aussies have selected their 17 man squad


Australia's Ashes squad: Tim Paine (c), Cameron Bancroft, Pat Cummins, Marcus Harris, Josh Hazlewood, Travis Head, Usman Khawaja, Marnus Labuschagne, Nathan Lyon, Mitchell Marsh, Michael Neser, James Pattinson, Peter Siddle, Steven Smith, Mitchell Starc, Matthew Wade, David Warner.

Main takeaway there is no specialist spinner selected behind Lyon, with Neser included suggests they don't anticipate many, if any, spinning wickets...

[eirebilly]

This is desperate, these 2 have nearly put on 100. Massive credit to Siddle but he does have history with inning's like this...

[compelling and rich]

forecast is looking decent for tomorrow so we may well have the best batting conditions of the game as the pitch doesn't seem to be doing too much. mainly overhead conditions causing the problems with the new ball.

but i really wouldn't like the aussies to get anything over 250. even in decent conditions i dont fancy our batting line up against that

[compelling and rich]

needed that

[Duty281]

Sharply taken at short leg. Moeen's golden arm. Great effort from Siddle.

Surely Lyon won't repeat the trick?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

forecast is looking decent for tomorrow so we may well have the best batting conditions of the game as the pitch doesn't seem to be doing too much. mainly overhead conditions causing the problems with the new ball.

but i really wouldn't like the aussies to get anything over 250. even in decent conditions i dont fancy our batting line up against that

Yeah the other side to the number 10 scoring 40 odd against you, is that it shows with proper application the pitch isn't a minefield. There was a reason the Aussies chose to bat first after all!

[compelling and rich]

last 5 first innings of the first test England in any series england have scored 85, 77, 342, 287 and 184 (if ive figured it out right). only two scores higher than the current Australia score

the biggest being in sri lanka. a lot of low scores on home soil

[Duty281]

The number one reason why England won't win this series notches a spectacular century on day one. Never looked like getting out all day.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

The number one reason why England won't win this series notches a spectacular century on day one. Never looked like getting out all day.

Not sure about that Duty - Broad had him playing and missing a lot this morning, one of those could’ve easily taken the edge. Since he’s been in he’s been imperious though

[Duty281]

Wow, past 250 now. Warne keeps talking about how Australia are getting back into it, but I think they're ahead now. Broad and Woakes look knackered...and the cruel thing is that they'll probably be bowling again tomorrow evening!

[subhranshu.kumar.5]

It is pleasant to look a classy inning from former Aussies Captain. Splendid inning.

[Gooseberry]

Remember when we used to think more than 4 bowlers was a luxury?

Let's just hope one of the Aussies stands on a ball in the warm up tomorrow.

[Gooseberry]

Yeah Oily wasn't Smith repreived on a review too? The bowlers have tired and the pitch has flattened out.
The positive for England is it shouldn't be too bad batting conditions tomorrow and middle will be tired from all that time with the bat *cough*

Its not a winning score for Aus yet but anything close to 300 is likely to be very competitive.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Argh crap we’re going to have to bat for 10 minutes!

[Duty281]

Deserved five-for for Broad. Stupendous innings from Smith - likely to be one of the best of the series - to take Australia from humiliation to a more than decent first innings effort, that's put the tourists in charge of the game.

A couple of overs at England tonight? Don't suppose they can send out a nightwatchman, unless it's Ali?

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Smith scored 50.7% of the Australians runs. Just like last year when kohli was doing doing similar things

[Gooseberry]

18 of England's last 20 wickets taken by Woakes and broad. For 180 runs. I suspect we have our new ball pairing sorted for the series.

[VTR]

Talk about letting a team off the hook, though the Anderson injury was a big moment. Aussies win this now I reckon

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

10-0 stumps. Two rather uneventful overs survived by Burns and Roy.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Well if you’d said the Aussies be 284 all out, and england 10-0 at close, after the toss I reckon the majority would’ve taken it - especially considering Anderson only bowling 4 overs. Just a shame they let the Aussies off the hook, but a fantastic knock by Smith.

But, the Aussies have what you’d say is a par score on the board, and haven’t batted England out of the game. Just need england to do something they haven’t done for a while, and that’s make 400+ first up...

[Gooseberry]

Positive start from Roy and burns. They must think they are back leach or something.
I'd still say it's England a day over all in terms of the play, certainly better than it might have been given the injury, but Australia batting first gives them that edge. Smiths shown there's runs to be got

[CaledonianCraig]

Well if you’d said the Aussies be 284 all out, and england 10-0 at close, after the toss I reckon the majority would’ve taken it - especially considering Anderson only bowling 4 overs. Just a shame they let the Aussies off the hook, but a fantastic knock by Smith.

But, the Aussies have what you’d say is a par score on the board, and haven’t batted England out of the game. Just need england to do something they haven’t done for a while, and that’s make 400+ first up...

Yes that is pretty much spot on.

Also Siddle and Lyons showed they could hang around so there isn't exactly demons in the pitch. If an England batsman can anchor the innings and bag a century with two or three 50+ partnerships along the way and England will have at least parity and perhaps a lead of 50+ which would put them in the boxseat. Very evenly poised at present and England will feel better after their new opening partnership got through those two tricky overs unscathed and got ten runs on the board.

[sirfredperry]

Very disappointing to let Australia off the hook. From 122-8 England were probably looking to be in the lead by the end of the day.

Now it means that whereas 250-300 would have given England the edge, they probably have to make 400. With England featuring one of their poorest batting line-ups in an Ashes Test for some years, I would say - sadly - that the match is probably beyond England now.

[Duty281]

Well if you’d said the Aussies be 284 all out, and england 10-0 at close, after the toss I reckon the majority would’ve taken it -

I wouldn't have done, personally. England needed to get Australia out for 200 or fewer to have a realistic chance, considering the weakness of their (England's) batting line-up.

284 means that Australia will likely end up with a decent 50-ish lead and then they'll power on against a tired and demoralised England attack, shorn of their best man. At worse for the tourists, it'll be level after England's batting effort, and the game will go down to a one-innings battle with England batting last.

[VTR]

Sadly I am with these more pessimistic views, as I see England as having the lineup to make 300, not much more. 150 all out, as it really should have been and its England's to lose from there. Now we are looking at hell of a job to get level, then the two man bowling attack have to go again.

If England make 400 plus I'll consider it a minor miracle, even more so if Burns and Denly make more than fifty between them

[sirfredperry]

We're happy to play Buttler as a specialist batsman, so why are we not playing Bairstow in a similar role and bringing in Foakes?

I don't know why Bairstow is constantly pandered too, as if he is a small child. As for the rest of the batting, it's astonishing how we've now gone Test after Test without being able to work out who is Test class and who isn't it. It's almost as if we're back in the 1980s and 1990s.

Perhaps we were spoilt by the number of players between around 2000 and 2015 who were spotted, selected and performed almost right from the start. I'm thinking here of the likes of Tresco, Vaughan, Strauss, Pietersen, Bell (admittedly after a shaky beginning), Cook, Prior, Trott and Root.

[Duty281]

Sadly I am with these more pessimistic views, as I see England as having the lineup to make 300, not much more. 150 all out, as it really should have been and its England's to lose from there. Now we are looking at hell of a job to get level, then the two man bowling attack have to go again.

If England make 400 plus I'll consider it a minor miracle, even more so if Burns and Denly make more than fifty between them

Last time England made 400 in a test was in the final game of the India series last year - 7 tests without scoring 400 since then! Before that, you have to go back to the last tour of Australia before England scored 400, which they did twice in that series.

Overall, England have made 400 or greater on just three occasions in their last 39 test innings. Shocking record. Minor miracle indeed.

And it was August 2017 the last time England made 500+ (dear Alastair Cook scoring 243 in that innings).

[VTR]

Yep, very rare and I think our of those three 400 scores Cook scored big runs (his final test vs India, presumably the Ashes Test where he got a double hundred). The other one was that where Malan and Bairstow scored hundreds but England still got smashed in the last Ashes? The Mitchell Marsh show, I'd rather not remember that one!

The template to get 400 now has to be a fifty opening partnership with Root then scoring big, supported by contributions from the supposedly powerful 5-9 that might in reality turn out to be completely out of form.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

What a player Steve Smith is. A shame his legacy will be tainted

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

We're happy to play Buttler as a specialist batsman, so why are we not playing Bairstow in a similar role and bringing in Foakes?

I don't know why Bairstow is constantly pandered too, as if he is a small child. As for the rest of the batting, it's astonishing how we've now gone Test after Test without being able to work out who is Test class and who isn't it. It's almost as if we're back in the 1980s and 1990s.

Perhaps we were spoilt by the number of players between around 2000 and 2015 who were spotted, selected and performed almost right from the start. I'm thinking here of the likes of Tresco, Vaughan, Strauss, Pietersen, Bell (admittedly after a shaky beginning), Cook, Prior, Trott and Root.

Very much spoilt - you look back at that 2010/11 series in Australia and 1-7 all averaged over 40 in tests cricket, then when Bresnan came into the XI for a brief period 1-8 did too!

That’s unfortunately not a normal occurrence

[king_carlos]

Incredible innings by Smith today. The way he manipulates bowlers by playing the ball so late is brilliant to watch.

There was a touch of turn on day 1 so England are going to need to hope this pitch plays very well for the batsman for day 2 and 3 as Edgbaston often does.

[Gooseberry]

Incredible innings by Smith today. The way he manipulates bowlers by playing the ball so late is brilliant to watch.

There was a touch of turn on day 1 so England are going to need to hope this pitch plays very well for the batsman for day 2 and 3 as Edgbaston often does.

Boundless optimism!

Certainly today could well be the best batting conditions we see. Anderson missing is a huge blow and undoutably affected the score yesterday with Stokes having a bad day and little to encourage Moeen. But Aus only have 4 bowlers too, and weaker support, very much part time options to back them up. Fatigue could play a part for them too if England can dig in. England are critisized for a lack of variety, Aus have 3 right arm seamers and an off spinner. Critically no left are quick, which has been Englands man weakness in recent years. The movement England got was off the pitch more than through the air, and if Pattinson and Cummins bowl full tilt they will struggle to exploit that as effectively. It wasnt excessive seam either, as showed by the the successful review Smith had.

Smiths innings was brilliant but Cummins showed its easy to score off the older ball, even with clouds over. Todays forecast is light grey early and brightening up later, so if England can get through this early session without much damage its about on a plate for them to make a fighting total as they could hope for.

I was the main doubter of Englands batting ahead of this summer, but Im not as pessimistic as some about this. It was always going to be tough batting second, but theyve done enough in limiting Aus to still be in the game if a bit behind.

[eirebilly]

Lots of negativity on here. England bowled Australia out for 284 whilst down their best bowler. OK it was not great to see England struggle from 122-8 but still 284 is not a great score and one that England certainly can match/better.

[alfie]

Ended my vigil at tea so missed the Smith/Siddle revival...though must admit I sort of expected them to add a few - not quite as many as they did though ! Being one bowler light really hurt England it seems ...I wonder if more use could have been made of the "spare" bowlers - Root himself , Denly ? But it seems once Smith is set England are powerless against him : not the first time he's done something like this ! The man has tremendous concentration and determination - and on a side note I wish the mob would stop this silly booing ...it is well overdone now , boring , undignified and frankly does the home team no good as it just makes him even more determined - as predicted.

As Olly says , 284 doesn't seem a monster score - though obviously disappointing from 8 down for peanuts. Trouble being England in recent times haven't often responded well to chasing even a moderate total like this... Think the game is still very open as they really should be able to at least match it on a pitch that didn't look too threatening as the day wore on.
But I'd rather be in Australia's position - runs on the board.

Funny : before the game people were saying Australia looked stronger in top four batting but had a long tail while England bat deep ... don't get much deeper than number ten as second top score ! Wonder what else will happen as we go on...

Finally just a comment re Anderson. Big loss of course but I can't agree with those saying it was a blunder to select him. Not like he was "managing a niggle" : he'd been completely out with a serious injury ; had then by all the evidence fully recovered , and been practicing without any trouble for a couple of weeks - and was even left out of the Ireland Test more as an extra precaution rather than because he was unfit. And it wasn't an injury he'd suffered before so there was no real reason to expect a recurrence (except that he is in his late thirties, I suppose!) Was reasonable enough to pick him ; just bad luck that he's broken down on this occasion. It happens sometimes - to players of all ages , and often quite out of the blue with no prior injury history. And really bad luck that it happened so early in the game - making it even more of a fluke since one can hardly blame the added pressure of a heavy Test Match workload.

Hope the umpires settle down tonight ...wouldn't want another day like the first : people will be calling for the referral ration to be increased from 2 per innings...

[Soul Requiem]

Ended my vigil at tea so missed the Smith/Siddle revival...though must admit I sort of expected them to add a few - not quite as many as they did though !  Being one bowler light really hurt England it seems ...I wonder if more use could have been made of the "spare" bowlers  - Root himself , Denly ?   But it seems once Smith is set England are powerless against him : not the first time he's done something like this !  The man has tremendous concentration and determination - and on a side note I wish the mob would stop this silly booing ...it is well overdone now , boring , undignified and frankly does the home team no good as it just makes him even more determined - as predicted.

The guy is a cheat and will forever be remembered thusly so let the mob carry on.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Lots of negativity on here. England bowled Australia out for 284 whilst down their best bowler. OK it was not great to see England struggle from 122-8 but still 284 is not a great score and one that England certainly can match/better.

I'm with you billy - it might be completely misplaced, and this post could look silly come 3pm today - but I fancy England to go past that Aussie first innings total, by 50 or so runs at least.

[Soul Requiem]

Lots of negativity on here. England bowled Australia out for 284 whilst down their best bowler. OK it was not great to see England struggle from 122-8 but still 284 is not a great score and one that England certainly can match/better.

I'm with you billy - it might be completely misplaced, and this post could look silly come 3pm today - but I fancy England to go past that Aussie first innings total, by 50 or so runs at least.

You would expect at least one of the middle order to fire and a couple of others to chip in too but then this is England so 104 all out it is.

[Gooseberry]

Ended my vigil at tea so missed the Smith/Siddle revival...though must admit I sort of expected them to add a few - not quite as many as they did though !  Being one bowler light really hurt England it seems ...I wonder if more use could have been made of the "spare" bowlers  - Root himself , Denly ?   But it seems once Smith is set England are powerless against him : not the first time he's done something like this !  The man has tremendous concentration and determination - and on a side note I wish the mob would stop this silly booing ...it is well overdone now , boring , undignified and frankly does the home team no good as it just makes him even more determined - as predicted.

The guy is a cheat and will forever be remembered thusly so let the mob carry on.

More than that the crowd enjoy doing it. Its gone from genuine hostility (for most) to part of the pantomime. Like when they had the chant for Mitchell Johnsons inability to bowl straight...right before he did There needs to be some atmosphere in the grounds and people like to have a villain. For all the cheers on Bancroft and Warners dismisalls Smith had the last laugh anyway, and like Bairstow and Stokes he seems to take a bit of needle to motivate him to his best.

The Aussies themselves certainly cant complain about it, the behaviour of their own fans is far worse and much less in the spirit of jest and banter. And thats before you get into what the players are like, a culture Smith actively fostered and encouraged. If its bothering him ( which it doesnt appear to be) its on him. Compared to the outright partisan hostility in some grounds in India this is all incredibly mild and silly.

I find Vaughn a bit two faced on this as well. He has always been the big champion of the barmy army and the crowd being rowdy, and least when it suited him to get them on his side anyway.

Players are much more concerned about their ex colleagues opinions and whats said in the press and commentary box about them than they are the fans.

[Gooseberry]

Lots of negativity on here. England bowled Australia out for 284 whilst down their best bowler. OK it was not great to see England struggle from 122-8 but still 284 is not a great score and one that England certainly can match/better.

I'm with you billy - it might be completely misplaced, and this post could look silly come 3pm today - but I fancy England to go past that Aussie first innings total, by 50 or so runs at least.

You would expect at least one of the middle order to fire and a couple of others to chip in too but then this is England so 104 all out it is.

I guess this is the big issue. The biggest lead they can realistically expect is 50. But they could end up 200 behind and absolutely out of the game.

The best case is being on parity in game terms. This is the issue with batting second.

[Soul Requiem]

Lots of negativity on here. England bowled Australia out for 284 whilst down their best bowler. OK it was not great to see England struggle from 122-8 but still 284 is not a great score and one that England certainly can match/better.

I'm with you billy - it might be completely misplaced, and this post could look silly come 3pm today - but I fancy England to go past that Aussie first innings total, by 50 or so runs at least.

You would expect at least one of the middle order to fire and a couple of others to chip in too but then this is England so 104 all out it is.

I guess this is the big issue. The biggest lead they can realistically expect is 50. But they could end up 200 behind and absolutely out of the game.

The best case is being on parity in game terms. This is the issue with batting second.

A lot of talk was made about the England batting line up but I do see them as having a higher ceiling than Australia who if anything got a score above their combined ability yesterday, their middle order is truly awful; a lot hinges on Root today.

[robbo277]

The pitch got easier to bat on yesterday as the ball is older and Australia also have 4 bowlers only. We need an opening partnership to do their job and see off the new ball to make it easier for 5-9. A 100 run partnership at the top and 284 looks like a small score. The ball starts doing less and bowlers get into their second and third spells with an old ball on a flat pitch. That's perfect for our middle order.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

The pitch got easier to bat on yesterday as the ball is older and Australia also have 4 bowlers only. We need an opening partnership to do their job and see off the new ball to make it easier for 5-9. A 100 run partnership at the top and 284 looks like a small score. The ball starts doing less and bowlers get into their second and third spells with an old ball on a flat pitch. That's perfect for our middle order.

Narrator: "They did not"

[robbo277]

The pitch got easier to bat on yesterday as the ball is older and Australia also have 4 bowlers only. We need an opening partnership to do their job and see off the new ball to make it easier for 5-9. A 100 run partnership at the top and 284 looks like a small score. The ball starts doing less and bowlers get into their second and third spells with an old ball on a flat pitch. That's perfect for our middle order.

Narrator: "They did not"

They might not. But the bowlers did their job yesterday, considering they were a man down. It's harsh to say they've failed because they haven't covered sufficiently well for a batting line-up that will probably fail today.

[Soul Requiem]

It's hard to argue that the bowling didn't fail when Australia put on over 160 runs for the last two wickets, they stopped bowling to their original plans and fell into the trap of making it easy for the top order batsmen and trying to be fancy with the tailenders.

[robbo277]

It's hard to argue that the bowling didn't fail when Australia put on over 160 runs for the last two wickets, they stopped bowling to their original plans and fell into the trap of making it easy for the top order batsmen and trying to be fancy with the tailenders.

They lost a session, definitely, but they won a couple as well. It was a par bowling performance as a whole, an excellent start and a tame finish. If Warner and Smith had got Australia to 162-2 and then we'd taken 122-8 to leave them on 284 batting first everyone would be saying how well they did.

At one point we could have expected better. But as an innings, they did okay.

[Soul Requiem]

I don't think that's how it works, getting to 162-2 is tolerable but letting the last two wickets go for that is not, the plans were again not good enough and it's common trend since Root has taken over the captaincy.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

The pitch got easier to bat on yesterday as the ball is older and Australia also have 4 bowlers only. We need an opening partnership to do their job and see off the new ball to make it easier for 5-9. A 100 run partnership at the top and 284 looks like a small score. The ball starts doing less and bowlers get into their second and third spells with an old ball on a flat pitch. That's perfect for our middle order.

Narrator: "They did not"

They might not. But the bowlers did their job yesterday, considering they were a man down. It's harsh to say they've failed because they haven't covered sufficiently well for a batting line-up that will probably fail today.

100% agree, they did fantastically, all things considered. The last two wickets were an issue, but the job is a whole innings and they did a lot of good. It wasn't impeccable, they didn't do as well at the end as they could, but the balance of analysis should show a good job when you factor in there being no Jimmy, the best bowler in the attack

[CaledonianCraig]

There seems to be a lot of contradictions on here.

People lauding Australia's score and how England will collapse. However, Glen McGrath observed how the pitch settled down greatly later in the day. Siddle and Lyons being able to hang around backs that theory up a lot and suggests there are no demons in this pitch. What some posters are saying is that the likes of Root, Roy, Bairstow, Stokes and Buttler will all go relatively cheaply. I cannot see that at all.

If England are still batting at close they will be in the lead of the match. Personally, I think the scores will be near parity after the first innings with neither side having any sort of substantial lead. If any side has a 50+ lead after the first innings then they will be warm favourites to win the test.

[dummy_half]

Can't complain much about Woakes and Broad - Stokes was very wayward at times and Mo was never going to be much of a force on day 1.
This getting through the tail is one of the reasons to pick Archer (or Wood or Stone) - 90mph + gets lower order batsmen away from their relatively solid defensive techniques.

Anyway, the big question is how do you get Steve Smith out, especially if the ball isn't swinging? We still seem no closer to a solution to this one than during the last Ashes series.

I think the issue is that he always looks a candidate for LBW to a ball pitches up and nipping back, but he always seems to get the bat there in time (something none of us could do), so bowlers are lulled into thinking that's the best plan. I wonder if it's worth going entirely the other way and bowling from round the wicket at middle / leg stumps and with a leg side field - he gets so far across with his left foot that he might get too 'closed' to get to the ball on that line and be vulnerable to either bowled or nicking to leg slip. Surely at least worth trying something different.

[Soul Requiem]

There seems to be a lot of contradictions on here.

People lauding Australia's score and how England will collapse. However, Glen McGrath observed how the pitch settled down greatly later in the day. Siddle and Lyons being able to hang around backs that theory up a lot and suggests there are no demons in this pitch. What some posters are saying is that the likes of Root, Roy, Bairstow, Stokes and Buttler will all go relatively cheaply. I cannot see that at all.

If England are still batting at close they will be in the lead of the match. Personally, I think the scores will be near parity after the first innings with neither side having any sort of substantial lead. If any side has a 50+ lead after the first innings then they will be warm favourites to win the test.

That isn't a contradiction, it depends on when there are overhead conditions so just because it settled down somewhat aided by poor bowling doesn't mean that it's going to be the same this morning, also need to factor in the extra pace of the Australian attack.

[CaledonianCraig]

There seems to be a lot of contradictions on here.

People lauding Australia's score and how England will collapse. However, Glen McGrath observed how the pitch settled down greatly later in the day. Siddle and Lyons being able to hang around backs that theory up a lot and suggests there are no demons in this pitch. What some posters are saying is that the likes of Root, Roy, Bairstow, Stokes and Buttler will all go relatively cheaply. I cannot see that at all.

If England are still batting at close they will be in the lead of the match. Personally, I think the scores will be near parity after the first innings with neither side having any sort of substantial lead. If any side has a 50+ lead after the first innings then they will be warm favourites to win the test.

That isn't a contradiction, it depends on when there are overhead conditions so just because it settled down somewhat aided by poor bowling doesn't mean that it's going to be the same this morning, also need to factor in the extra pace of the Australian attack.

Okay shall we agree it is two differing opinions. One by experts such as McGrath and others saying the pitch has stopped doing so much and overhead conditions got better. Those that know the pitch say the 2nd and 3rd days should be good for batting plus it is sunny today so no overcast conditions. Those are pertinent points and expert opinion. Weigh that against posters on here who suggest England will collapse. Jeez they have a low opinion on their batsmen. People like Root (averaging close to 50 on Test cricket), Bairstow, Stokes, Roy and Buttler then they are presuming will be out cheaply. I am all for opinion but when it is washed away either by blind pessimism with no regard for facts such as an improving batting strip and overhead conditions then it negates that opinion in my view.

I know one or two have offered stats of amount of times England have reached 400 in the last few years but stats is all they are. England had never won the World Cup but they did it this summer.

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