The Ashes - official thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

Seeing as this starts next week, I'll kick it off - the Aussies have selected their 17 man squad


Australia's Ashes squad: Tim Paine (c), Cameron Bancroft, Pat Cummins, Marcus Harris, Josh Hazlewood, Travis Head, Usman Khawaja, Marnus Labuschagne, Nathan Lyon, Mitchell Marsh, Michael Neser, James Pattinson, Peter Siddle, Steven Smith, Mitchell Starc, Matthew Wade, David Warner.

Main takeaway there is no specialist spinner selected behind Lyon, with Neser included suggests they don't anticipate many, if any, spinning wickets...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Something about a certain Ben Foakes playing?

Bairstow’s position must be coming seriously under the microscope - not the most difficult stumping that. If he fails with the bat second dig then the calls will become very loud...

[Soul Requiem]

Something about a certain Ben Foakes playing?

Bairstow’s position must be coming seriously under the microscope - not the most difficult stumping that. If he fails with the bat second dig then the calls will become very loud...

You'll have some in the media make excuses for him by saying it kept low but Foakes made them look regulation in Sri Lanka.

Going back to changing the plan too often it does highlight how big a loss Anderson is, he'll bowl the same ball over after over, keeping things tight and waiting for the batsmen to make a mistake.

[Duty281]

Very generous of Denly to serve Smith some full tosses...

I hope Woakes isn't injured, too! Expected to see him bowl by now. This game looks done - another 136 runs and England will be chasing 250, which simply isn't going to happen.

[guildfordbat]

Something about a certain Ben Foakes playing?

A lot does depend on how you balance the side and I'll leave my comments on that until this one is played out. However, yes, I would have expected Foakes to have got that stumping. Seems a bad and expensive miss ....

[Duty281]

Aussies now favourites with Winviz. England slipping behind the draw.

I said earlier that Australia won't bat all day even if they wanted to...I'm not so sure now.

Never mind, Stokes has got Head in a similar way to how Stokes got out yesterday! Unexpected.

[alfie]

Part of the problem is the amount of different plans they've tried and how quickly they ditch them and move onto another one, they did the same last year with Kohli; Root has a habit of trying to be too clever with certain batsmen. The best two captains of recent years were Vaughan and Hussain who would both have plans for every batsmen but would stick with them for a prolonged period of time.

Shane Warne - who, similar to David Lloyd, I find a decent pundit in the longer form of the game and when not playing the clown as too often happens with t20 commentaries - making the points as above and especially being prepared to stick with them for a prolonged period.

Worth keeping in mind as well that a plan might take several overs from start to finish in setting up a different batsmen. I've heard such different greats from yesteryear as Andy Roberts and Bishen Bedi talk about this.

Absolutely. I do think England have been guilty of impatience a lot lately - especially in this innings. Probably felt they needed to strike early so a bit twitchy early on ; but once you realize it's time to play the long game changing tack every few balls gets you nowhere.

What the devil is wrong with Woakes ? Some injury issue ?

Lead at 115 and England will surely need to chase down at least 250 now as a collapse looks less and less likely. Denny looks the best chance of a wicket , but I doubt he will be able to maintain

Stokes gets Head

[VTR]

This is more or less gone. Absolute garbage morning for England, no wickets, runs coming fast, spinners bowling a load of rubbish. Only weather and batting out for a draw offer any hope from here

[CaledonianCraig]

A good slower ball from Stokes and Head nick's it behind. Australia 205 for 4 and lead by 115. England need a couple more before lunch.

[Soul Requiem]

We definitely need to get Archer into the side at Lords, the extra pace might just might stop Smith stopping moving so far in front of the stumps and from what we saw in the world cup and from what i've heard of his first class career, he's incredibly accurate.

[alfie]

Yeah need more than that wicket. Two more in the next twenty minutes ...or one if it's Smith

One thing that might keep them hoping is that there really is nothing there for the pace men now. But there is a Lyon lurking...

[Duty281]

Why is Denly still bowling? Why, oh, why?

[Soul Requiem]

Gower talking absolute nonsense here.

[alfie]

Why is Denly still bowling? Why, oh, why?

Because he's not Moeen ?

Must be something wrong with Woakes. I do think Denly has given some hope of inducing an error ; he's turned the ball and some have kept low. While Smith is there Moeen can't come back , can he ?

Glad the commentators have finally given up trying to invalidate the Stokes wicket as a back foot no ball

[Soul Requiem]

This is why I much prefer the radio commentary, so many of the ex players on Sky just do not understand the laws at all.

[Duty281]

Why is Denly still bowling? Why, oh, why?

Because he's not Moeen ?

Must be something wrong with Woakes.  I do think Denly has given some hope of inducing an error ; he's turned the ball and some have kept low. While Smith is there Moeen can't come back , can he ?

Glad the commentators have finally given up trying to invalidate the Stokes wicket as a back foot no ball

I'd rather see Root than Denly. Denly's serving up at least one boundary ball per over and allowing Wade to make a start.

Agree that there must be something amiss with Woakes. Further rotten luck for England. Rare to lose one bowler to injury in a test, let alone two!

[CaledonianCraig]

Denly has got some to turn a lot out of the rough. I would imagine that is why he is still bowling.

Also late yesterday Woskes when fielding went down to stop a ball and looked to injure a finger on his right hand. Maybe nothing but it may be that which has stopped him being bowled.

[CaledonianCraig]

Australia's morning by some way. They have now replaced England in the box seat and are 231 for 4 at lunch leading by 141. England in need of a big afternoon session. What I would say is there are still no real demons in this pitch.

[alfie]

Something about a certain Ben Foakes playing?

Bairstow’s position must be coming seriously under the microscope - not the most difficult stumping that. If he fails with the bat second dig then the calls will become very loud...

Interesting to hear Sangakkara's take on that stumping. He made valid points about Bairstow's movement ; but he also rated it as a pretty difficult chance...an assessment I'd agree with.
Foakes is a fine keeper and he might have brought it off. But I do think you Surrey chaps are getting just
a little hypercritical in your agenda to get your man in

I wouldn't expect England to be axing YJB just yet . Though he certainly needs to get back in the runs soonish...

[Duty281]

107/1 - emphatically Australia's session. England bowled poorly and without control, though they are two seamers down. Smith looks near-unbeatable and, if he carries on in this vein, he might genuinely threaten Bradman's aforementioned Ashes total.

Australia have pretty much won the game, barring a freak spell of bowling after lunch.

Best hope for England now is Australia bat on for slightly too long and some rain and some stoic batting rescues a draw.

[Soul Requiem]

Something about a certain Ben Foakes playing?

Bairstow’s position must be coming seriously under the microscope - not the most difficult stumping that. If he fails with the bat second dig then the calls will become very loud...

Interesting to hear Sangakkara's take on that stumping.  He made valid points about Bairstow's movement ; but he also rated it as a pretty difficult chance...an assessment I'd agree with.
Foakes is a fine keeper and he might have brought it off. But I do think you Surrey chaps are getting just
a little hypercritical in your agenda to get your man in  

I wouldn't expect England to be axing YJB just yet .  Though he certainly needs to get back in the runs soonish...

Foakes would have taken that stumping.

[alfie]

Haven't looked at your road map today , Craig. But I'm guessing this is closer to the Aussie one at luncheon

Game not quite gone for England (though if Woakes is crocked it really is looking grim !). One might yet bring two or three after lunch ; and the tail might not thrive this time around. But it seems the target is going to be north of 250 and that is seriously tough. Even if the pitch stays placid. There is enough there for Lyon to do the job on his own I'd imagine...this is the huge advantage Australia hold (apart from having Smith) : England cannot match their spinner. And I don't believe that would change were Leach , or Rashid , or anyone else brought in...
Need some pitches that help the seamers throughout . If they have any fit seamers left

[Duty281]

England's lack of control in their bowling has really cost them. New ball in 20 overs, but by then the Aussie lead will have likely exceeded 200, and it'll be beyond England to get that.

Really, if England had bowled with greater discipline and economy, the lead should have been around the 150 mark by the time of the second new ball, which would have meant they would have still been in the game.

[alfie]

Something about a certain Ben Foakes playing?

Bairstow’s position must be coming seriously under the microscope - not the most difficult stumping that. If he fails with the bat second dig then the calls will become very loud...

Interesting to hear Sangakkara's take on that stumping.  He made valid points about Bairstow's movement ; but he also rated it as a pretty difficult chance...an assessment I'd agree with.
Foakes is a fine keeper and he might have brought it off. But I do think you Surrey chaps are getting just
a little hypercritical in your agenda to get your man in  

I wouldn't expect England to be axing YJB just yet .  Though he certainly needs to get back in the runs soonish...

Foakes would have taken that stumping.

Easy to say. And may well be true. But Sangakkara suggested it was a 60% chance for a very good keeper.

Opinions.

[alfie]

England's lack of control in their bowling has really cost them. New ball in 20 overs, but by then the Aussie lead will have likely exceeded 200, and it'll be beyond England to get that.

Really, if England had bowled with greater discipline and economy, the lead should have been around the 150 mark by the time of the second new ball, which would have meant they would have still been in the game.

Think that's true. Though in fairness being two bowlers down has seriously hampered them. Neither Mo nor Denly are noted for economy...neither is Stokes to be honest. Agree they over attacked yesterday...and I'd suggest they've not got the fielding positions quite right in general : perhaps partly down to all these constantly revised plans to bowl at Smith ?
Easier pitch conditions have made a difference too.

I don't think 230 , say , would be beyond England - though it would be a battle : but it looks as if they'll be after a lot more than that.

Might be time for the rain dance

[king_carlos]

Something about a certain Ben Foakes playing?

Where in the line-up is the question.

3.Stokes 4.Root 5.Bairstow 6.Buttler 7.Foakes

I'm an old fashioned cricket fan who would select Foakes purely on the basis on him undeniably being the stronger gloveman by a mile. Selecting him just makes the batting line-up even messier though.

[guildfordbat]

Haven't looked at your road map today , Craig. But I'm guessing this is closer to the Aussie one at luncheon

Game not quite gone for England (though if Woakes is crocked it really is looking grim !). One might yet bring two or three after lunch ; and the tail might not thrive this time around. But it seems the target is going to be north of 250 and that is seriously tough. Even if the pitch stays placid.  There is enough there for Lyon to do the job on his own I'd imagine...this is the huge advantage Australia hold (apart from having Smith) : England cannot match their spinner.  And I don't believe that would change were Leach , or Rashid , or anyone else brought in...
Need some pitches that help the seamers throughout .  If they have any fit seamers left

Fair play to Craig with his road map for Australia today. He's been spot on saying that Australia wanted to do well in the morning session and that's exactly what they've done.

[king_carlos]

Smith is just incredible. He is the difference between these two sides in this test.

The need to challenge Smith alone will likely see extra pace in the attack for the rest of the series.

This total is approaching the point where Root will need to play a knock of similar quality of Smith's in order to salvage the test.

It's been a fabulously engrossing start to the series though.

[Duty281]

*Woakes is bowling klaxon*

Flabbergasted that he didn't bowl this morning if he were actually capable of doing so.

[alfie]

Hmm. Woakes is alive then ? First bowl for the day...after lunch !

Smith to 99...

[king_carlos]

Another nonsense is both sides trying to get the ball changed at nearly every opportunity. Needs to be a curb on that sort of behaviour, rather than slowing the game down.

These situations remind me of the wonderful interaction between Dickie Bird and Dennis Lillee when the later was unhappy with the shape of the ball.

Lillee requested the ball be changed and umpire Bird said we'll look at it at the end of the over. Lillee bowled another delivery and asked again, Bird said finish the over. Lillee bowled another delivery and asked again, captain Ian Chappell had to convince Lillee to finish the over. In true pantomime villain fashion Lillee decides that he'll finish the over by bowling off breaks. On a pitch that hadn't turned all test he got two deliveries to turn beautifully and challenge the batsman!

At the end of the over Bird looked at the ball, said yep it's out of shape Dennis and called for a replacement. A great interaction between to of the great characters the game has seen.

[guildfordbat]

Something about a certain Ben Foakes playing?

Where in the line-up is the question.

3.Stokes 4.Root 5.Bairstow 6.Buttler 7.Foakes

I'm an old fashioned cricket fan who would select Foakes purely on the basis on him undeniably being the stronger gloveman by a mile. Selecting him just makes the batting line-up even messier though.

Following Alfie's post - my point was that whilst you can never guarantee what would have happened if a different player had been involved, I would have expected Foakes to achieve the stumping misssed by Bairstow. Whether that should mean Foakes plays in the next test is an altogether different matter and I won't make any call on selecting the side for the second test or pushing for anyone to be called up until the first one is done.

Perhaps worth noting that Foakes is not doing as well with the bat this season as last which should also come into the mix if and when he is considered.

[alfie]

Hmm. Woakes is alive then ? First bowl for the day...after lunch !

Smith to 99...

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

The remarkable Steven Smith becomes the first man to score twin Ashes hundreds since Matthew Hayden in Brisbane 2002. This is the first time it’s happened in England since Stephen Waugh Manchester 1997. Incredible

Second fastest to 25 test centuries in 119 innings - 8 fewer than Kohli.

[Duty281]

Lovely drive for Smith to get his ton. Six centuries for Steve Smith in his last ten test innings against England. Wow.

143, 141*, 40, 6, 239, 76, 102*, 83, 144, 103*.

Average of about 154.

[alfie]

Smith 100

Some player ! Is winning this match on his own. Told you it was a bad idea to boo him...

[guildfordbat]

Another nonsense is both sides trying to get the ball changed at nearly every opportunity. Needs to be a curb on that sort of behaviour, rather than slowing the game down.

These situations remind me of the wonderful interaction between Dickie Bird and Dennis Lillee when the later was unhappy with the shape of the ball.

Lillee requested the ball be changed and umpire Bird said we'll look at it at the end of the over. Lillee bowled another delivery and asked again, Bird said finish the over. Lillee bowled another delivery and asked again, captain Ian Chappell had to convince Lillee to finish the over. In true pantomime villain fashion Lillee decides that he'll finish the over by bowling off breaks. On a pitch that hadn't turned all test he got two deliveries to turn beautifully and challenge the batsman!

At the end of the over Bird looked at the ball, said yep it's out of shape Dennis and called for a replacement. A great interaction between to of the great characters the game has seen.

I'm surprised Bird didn't take the players off while he considered Lillee's request.

As an even further off topic comment which I reckon you'll like, Carlos - I met Lillee's old partner Jeff Thomson when I was in New Zealand last year. It was in the bar (no surprise there!) at the Auckland cricket ground. I was wearing a Surrey t-shirt at the time. ''I recognise that top''said Tommo as he put down his bottle of beer and held out his hand. Surprisingly, a very friendly and good guy (off the pitch anyway).

[alfie]

Interesting to note even Steve Waugh was being a bit cagey about declaring it Game Over at lunch. As it looks increasingly unlikely the Australian innings is going to implode any time soon , the question of when they might declare must come into things... And if any weather is about that choice gets complicated.
I doubt they'd be leaving England anything remotely likely as a chase - just in case. So the draw might come back into consideration.

But England have a pretty poor recent record in defending for a draw. Think KP_fan is already counting his money

[sirfredperry]

England probably inadvertently doing themselves a favour here by not bowling Australia out.

Crazy thing about Test cricket is that sides rarely declare at totals that the opposition almost certainly won't get. Thus, Australia could be, say, 260 ahead - a 4th inning score England would be very unlikely to reach. Yet Aus would want to bat on.

[Duty281]

Broad and Woakes finding some control, but not the wickets that England so desperately need. Soon it'll be Denly/Moeen and Stokes bowling again, then the runs will start flowing.

[guildfordbat]

Interesting to note even Steve Waugh was being a bit cagey about declaring it Game Over at lunch.  As it looks increasingly unlikely the Australian innings is going to implode any time soon , the question of when they might declare must come into things... And if any weather is about that choice gets complicated.
I doubt they'd be leaving England anything remotely likely as a chase - just in case. So the draw might come back into consideration.

But England have a pretty poor recent record in defending for a draw. Think KP_fan is already counting his money

If Australia are going to win this test, they shouldn't need more than two and a half sessions to take 10 England wickets second dig with, as expected, Lyon leading the way. If he should bowl like Moeen a drain and/or we get after him, we'll almost certainly need longer than that to score the runs necessary to win. Why give us the time and possible opportunity?

Therefore, if I were Paine, I would be in no rush to declare assuming the opportunity does present itself later. Just maybe give Burns and Roy an awkward 10 minutes tonight allowing for the chance of weather tomorrow (I'm hearing a possible shower but nothing dramatic - Duty, you're the weather god, is that right?). However, my inclination would still be to bat into tomorrow if possible and keep Burns and Roy wondering when they will be padding up and allowing them as little time as possible to prepare. Certainly, unless the weather intervenes, do not declare overnight. Olly and the Surrey boys know that script.

[alfie]

Denly might be the best chance of fluking a wicket ! Nothing doing for the seamers ; though the odd ball stays down a bit.

Looking back now , England had two chances to go for the kill : day one : When Australia were 122/8 ...only to get away. And early yesterday when they were in front with six wickets in hand. Missed both - though of course you have to credit Australia for their determined efforts to fight back.
When you've lost the toss and your best bowler you just can't spurn opportunities like that. They don't keep coming...

[Duty281]

https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/forecast/gcqdkqnss#?date=2019-08-05

Looks clear for tomorrow. Possible shower this afternoon, but even that's starting to look unlikely. If it comes to it, I expect Australia to declare early tomorrow after batting England firmly out of contention, and give themselves 80-85 overs to take out England, which should be enough.

[Duty281]

Moeen and Denly on and any control England had in this session has evaporated.

[guildfordbat]

Denly might be the best chance of fluking a wicket ! Nothing doing for the seamers ; though the odd ball stays down a bit.

Looking back now , England had two chances to go for the kill : day one : When Australia were 122/8 ...only to get away. And early yesterday when they were in front with six wickets in hand.  Missed both - though of course you have to credit Australia for their determined efforts to fight back.
When you've lost the toss and your best bowler you just can't spurn opportunities like that. They don't keep coming...

Yeah, although I think the Skycomms are being overly kind to him - he's usually sending down one dross ball each over.

Question for you folks. On drs, is is the third umpire who decides if a shot has been played for an lbw review? I doubted one was played a few minutes ago against Denly and would have wanted to review.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Mo vs Aussies, is he mentally capable? He looked shot down there, he looks shot here. He was poor in the World Cup; is there another player who so obviously loses his head?

I'd be dropping him. I don't think they'll drop Jonny, there's clearly a feeling in that setup that he's some top class batsman, but I don't trust him much. Maybe he can only bat when Jason Roy is talking him through it

[alfie]

Interesting to note even Steve Waugh was being a bit cagey about declaring it Game Over at lunch.  As it looks increasingly unlikely the Australian innings is going to implode any time soon , the question of when they might declare must come into things... And if any weather is about that choice gets complicated.
I doubt they'd be leaving England anything remotely likely as a chase - just in case. So the draw might come back into consideration.

But England have a pretty poor recent record in defending for a draw. Think KP_fan is already counting his money

If Australia are going to win this test, they shouldn't need more than two and a half sessions to take 10 England wickets second dig with, as expected, Lyon leading the way. If he should bowl like Moeen a drain and/or we get after him, we'll almost certainly need longer than that to score the runs necessary to win. Why give us the time and possible opportunity?

Therefore, if I were Paine, I would be in no rush to declare assuming the opportunity does present itself later. Just maybe give Burns and Roy an awkward 10 minutes tonight allowing for the chance of weather tomorrow (I'm hearing a possible shower but nothing dramatic - Duty, you're the weather god, is that right?). However, my inclination would still be to bat into tomorrow if possible and keep Burns and Roy wondering when they will be padding up and allowing them as little time as possible to prepare. Certainly, unless the weather intervenes, do not declare overnight. Olly and the Surrey boys know that script.

I know that one too , guildford. I think they'll go for the ten awkward minutes option , myself. They're likely to be a long way ahead by then as England are almost reduced to going through the motions already...with a lot of day left. Suppose no one ever got rich betting on the British weather ; but it sounds as they'll have a more or less full day tomorrow so as you say , no rush.

Need Burns to reprise his first innings and find a few mates...

[alfie]

Ha. Nasser has produced a statistical study to prove that the best place to bowl to Smith is just around top of off...

He needed a chart to get that ? Bleeding obvious I think. Probably not funky enough though

[KP_fan]

With the fear of defeat evaporating....Aus will bat more freely...there is hardly anything in the english attack...hard new ball might bring even more runs.
Aus will declare with about 6 to 10 overs today and lead of 350 runs

[alfie]

Denly might be the best chance of fluking a wicket ! Nothing doing for the seamers ; though the odd ball stays down a bit.

Looking back now , England had two chances to go for the kill : day one : When Australia were 122/8 ...only to get away. And early yesterday when they were in front with six wickets in hand.  Missed both - though of course you have to credit Australia for their determined efforts to fight back.
When you've lost the toss and your best bowler you just can't spurn opportunities like that. They don't keep coming...

Yeah, although I think the Skycomms are being overly kind to him - he's usually sending down one dross ball each over.

Question for you folks. On drs, is is the third umpire who decides if a shot has been played for an lbw review? I doubted one was played a few minutes ago against Denly and would have wanted to review.

Yeah on another day the ump might have given that. Bairstow fancied the review I think ; but if the onfield call was "shot played" I guess they'd have lost. Don't think the TV ump has any say in that part.

Agree Denly is mixing rubbish in fairly lavish proportions. Just think he might get a wicket with a rotten ball...as wrist spinners sometimes do...

[Duty281]

Another bad thing for England in this test is some other Aussie batsmen - Khawaja, Head, Wade - have got some valuable time in the middle and scored some runs, setting themselves up for the rest of the series.

Lead over 200 now. I think we can safely say: England aren't winning this one!

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