The Ashes - official thread

[Gooseberry]

First topic message reminder :

SR that's not how mental fatigue works.
Also Stokes had a long break last year ...which he came back from err ...mentaly fatigued. Buttler and Bairstow haven't had that luxury.

But anyway it's not a case of "attitude" , ask Trott and Trescothick.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Lyon terrifies me, no idea why I took him out of my tipping thing

[robbo277]

Gary Ballance has just got a shout out on the BBC live text commentary, cementing his position as the new Bell. Gets better and better the less he plays for England, then as soon as he's recalled there will be people calling for his head after the first failure.

[alfie]

Think the "best bat in at three " idea is an old fashioned one...Bradman did it , of course. And many others .

When I started following the game it was generally the policy : You'd see Harvey in there for Australia , May , then Dexter for England. And really continued so ... Gower , Ian Chappell , Richards , Tendulkar ...

Somewhere along the line something changed. The modern stars - except for Williamson - seem to avoid the spot.

All the talk was it was Root's wish to move up this time. Not sure I believe that...

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Horror shot only topped by horror fielding

[alfie]

Ooh...Burns gets lucky ! Khawaja makes a right mess of a pretty standard gully catch...

And now Paine wastes a review. Surprised they went for that. Never looked out.

[Duty281]

Burns defending and leaving well but seems he's frustrated by the lack of scoring chances. Very poor miss by Khawaja.

Bit of a waste of a review there, though I was expecting an umpire's call. Shouldn't matter too much...Lyon's dominating Denly.

[robbo277]

Burns defending and leaving well but seems he's frustrated by the lack of scoring chances. Very poor miss by Khawaja.

Bit of a waste of a review there, though I was expecting an umpire's call. Shouldn't matter too much...Lyon's dominating Denly.

Danger of going full Geoffrey, but he won't get any scoring chances back in the pavilion. If he's there at tea he'll have enough runs and a chance to cash in for more.

[eirebilly]

I really like Burns, I think he is very watchful.

[Soul Requiem]

Think the "best bat in at three " idea is an old fashioned one...Bradman did it , of course.  And many others .

When I started following the game it was generally the policy : You'd see Harvey in there for Australia , May , then Dexter for England. And really continued so ... Gower , Ian Chappell , Richards , Tendulkar ...

Somewhere along the line something changed. The modern stars - except for Williamson - seem to avoid the spot.

All the talk was it was Root's wish to move up this time.  Not sure I believe that...

I might have misread what you've put there Alfie but Richards, Gower and Tendulkar generally flitted between 4 and 5.

[alfie]

They did move around , Soul...but I think they all put in a fair bit of time at three ?
Haven't checked the records so I may be mistaken...perhaps I should research the topic a bit because it certainly seems to me that three has become more of a spot for a "third opener"  than the "good old days"

When I think of Gower , I always see him in 1985 ; he certainly batted three then. What a series he had !

[Gooseberry]

Maybe Denly should be the fifth seamer 

(Where did all that nonsense about Curran actually playing come from , I got the impression from the way folk were carrying on it was actually a thing) 


the one bright note in the continued disaster zone that is Englands batting order is Burns once again going well first dig in contrast to the chaos around him. He might just prove to be a functional if not world beating opening batsman yet.

[Gooseberry]

They did move around , Soul...but I think they all put in a fair bit of time at three ?
Haven't checked the records so I may be mistaken...perhaps I should research the topic a bit because it certainly seems to me that three has become more of a spot for a "third opener"  than the "good old days"

England certainly have largely had an apprentice or third opener as three for a long time now. Atherton started out there in the 89 Ashes, and Vaughn played a lot in that position. 
Maybe we are showing our age but many would consider 30 years "the old days" if not good ones.

[Afro]

All the talk was it was Root's wish to move up this time.  Not sure I believe that...

Everything pointed to the plan being to break up a very inexperienced top 3 and not let the pressure build from 3 quick early wickets. Also you can have an experienced head in alongside the inexperienced ones, having a quiet word between each over. It has logic, especially as we then have a middle order that can cut loose when there are runs on the board.

The plan falls apart when the experienced batsman is in so early he is facing a new ball and gets out cheapily, which is what is happening at the moment. Its now finding the balance of allowing enough time for something new to work, or flogging a dead horse for too long.

[Soul Requiem]

I would say in your defence that Tendulkar had Dravid primarily at three who was himself a top top player so would argue he might fit the criteria himself, Sir Viv as did most of the Windies team chopped and changed a lot, from memory he Lloyd and Gomes were fairly interchangeable.

Michael Vaughan was at his best at three but I will say I think he was a better batsmen than Root is, had far better bowling line ups to contend with his whole international career, again you could say he was a converted opener, Pietersen and Thorpe who were the premier batsmen of their time occupied five.

[Duty281]

Looks pretty damn good for batting right now. Hardly anything out there for the bowlers and England's batsmen just need to apply themselves.

[compelling and rich]

Looks pretty damn good for batting right now. Hardly anything out there for the bowlers and England's batsmen just need to apply themselves.

que a bunch of them getting themselves out

[Duty281]

Looks pretty damn good for batting right now. Hardly anything out there for the bowlers and England's batsmen just need to apply themselves.

que a bunch of them getting themselves out

Yeah, 'England's batsmen applying themselves' hasn't really been a thing for the last few years! As Denly is keen to show in this over.

[alfie]

I would say in your defence that Tendulkar had Dravid primarily at three who was himself a top top player so would argue he might fit the criteria himself, Sir Viv as did most of the Windies team chopped and changed a lot, from memory he Lloyd and Gomes were fairly interchangeable.

Michael Vaughan was at his best at three but I will say I think he was a better batsmen than Root is, had far better bowling line ups to contend with his whole international career, again you could say he was a converted opener, Pietersen and Thorpe who were the premier batsmen of their time occupied five.

Yeah you're right about Dravid...and as you say , he was a star in his own right. Vaughan might have been a "converted opener" but I think he was also , for a time , his team's best bat.

One might suggest Pietersen was the first (England ) undoubted best bat to deliberately avoid number three ? Not that I blame him ; I think he was temperamentally and tactically much better suited to batting a bit further down. Suited him , and the team.

I think the overall point about a change in fashion stands though.

[Duty281]

England's session and well-placed to cash in during the afternoon. Could have all been different if Khawaja hadn't spilled a regulation chance.

[Gooseberry]

Michael Vaughan was at his best at three but I will say I think he was a better batsmen than Root is, ...... Pietersen and Thorpe who were the premier batsmen of their time occupied five.

Only Vaughan himself would agree with you on that. Massively over inflated sense of his own importance as a cricketer and a human. 


Pietersen played almost his entire career at 4, although thats more  pedants point than anything. 

From that era Ian bells a really interesting one. He bounced around all over the order and even opened in India, but played mostly at 3. Very much a natural stoke player in the Gower mode rather than a traditional opener type.  For a long time he was seen as a failure in that 3 role and a bit of a softy, especially against quicks with the new ball but frankly the Bell that was dropped playing there in 2015 would be the match of anyone they've had in there since.

[alfie]

76/2 at lunch. Will settle for that.

Root will be annoyed at missing out today as it looks reasonably pleasant for batting. Aussies - especially Hazlewood - bowled well ; not too many loose balls , certainly in the first hour. These two have done well to mount a recovery from 26/2.

Burns has had a lucky break ; but has played pretty well. Has developed a method against Lyon , which shows he's a thinking cricketer. Too early to say if he has the class to be a long term success as opener but he has certainly shown he possesses the temperament for the job.
Denly looks elegant when he's driving. Unfortunately that reminds me too much of Vince Hopefully he can build on this start for a change...

[Soul Requiem]

The general level of batting has dropped so much in the past ten years that we can highlight a few players who stand out; Williamson, Kohli, Smith and Root are the only middle order players worth a damn in world cricket at the moment.

[Gooseberry]

27 overs before lunch ... just another 71 to get through in two sessions. Its almost as if Australia are in no rush to ensure theres a result in this game.

[Gooseberry]

England's session and well-placed to cash in during the afternoon. Could have all been different if Khawaja hadn't spilled a regulation chance.

Well Placed with Denly Buttler Stokes and Baristow as your middle order? Hmm. HMMMM. 

Id say post tea is the time England could look to cash in if they are still well placed with a ball 60 overs old ( or 54 at the rate Aus are bowling) and a tired trio of seamers leading to the junk bowlers being wheeled out its more likely youll see some less tentative play with an awareness that another new ball is likely to come and clean up the tail. 

Ill be very happy if England get through the next session in a position to think that way mind. Little faith in Denly and what comes after to stick around.

[Gooseberry]

Root was touted as a potential opener during his early years and used to be seen as the type to fill that 4 role so it's not just a case of sticking your best man in there.
I've always seen both sides of the argument for it but it's evident when it has been tried it's not got the best from him. Given they have Denly in the side who was picked as an opener and play 3 it's really a bit odd to persist with forcing Root there.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

England's session and well-placed to cash in during the afternoon. Could have all been different if Khawaja hadn't spilled a regulation chance.

Agree, and already 10 overs into Hazlewood's legs as Siddle has been expensive. Pitch looks fairly placid, ball getting older - Denly's not gonna get many better chances than this to put a score on the board for himself and the team

[alfie]

Cummins testing Denly with a bit of a barrage of short stuff after lunch...hope he is wearing a good arm guard.
They've tried a few bouncers at Burns too. So far the batsmen have handled them quite well. The bounce isn't as erratic as that last day at Edgbaston ; but these fellows are decidedly sharp so the lifting delivery is still dangerous...

[robbo277]

12 for Hazelwood and 9 for Cummins now. Siddle is 5 overs 0-27 and even Lyon has gone 0-15 off 5, so Paine has to go to his premier bowlers straight after lunch. Really hope these two can stick through this spell - it should get easier from there.

Langer talked about wearing down Archer, but we've got the extra seamer (nearly had two...) so should be able to rotate more. If Siddle can't settle down and play a holding role for Australia, they're going to need a lot from Lyon to compensate.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Good nut from Hazlewood that - seems to be the only one getting any movement

[compelling and rich]

here comes our "strong middle order"

feel like couple will come with that now

[alfie]

Ah...Denly fails to go on , alas... Good bowling from the excellent Hazlewood
Tied him down ; then got one to leave him slightly and a regulation edge...

Pressure back on England at 92/3. Hazlewood really has bowled splendidly today .

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Excellent bowling from Hazlewood

Root is becoming quite the lbw mug , isn't he ? Caught on the crease again...

Still don't like him batting at three.  With the general batting frailties , I'd far prefer a measure of protection for the one truly top class bat in the team. But what do I know ...

I agree Alfie...never understood this idea "your best bat bats 3" - as Smith and Kohli have proved in back to back summers now...something which loud mouthed pundits such as Vaughan and co seem to conveniently miss out when asking for Root at 3...

Anyways - without wishing to put the muckers on him, Burns has looked comfortable so far.

Difference between England and Australia/India is that the latter have a decent 3 in Khawaja and Pujara probably is in the world class bracket.

Root’s been forced up as everyone tried keeps failing

[robbo277]

Not what England needed. Denly goes for 30, 1.81 lower than Sam Curran's average.

Stokes can bat and all the stats show that he prefers to bat first. Still, two left handers at the crease, so I don't think it's long before we see Lyon brought on to bowl an end, which lets Siddle and Australia's opening bowlers off the hook a little for now.

Buttler at 5, Stokes at 6. Could still see Lyon before Siddle, but they'll probably continue with Hazlewood for a bit longer.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I went to the loo and Root got out. I went for a shower and Denly got out.

I won’t move from now on, but I’m flying throughout most of tomorrow’s play so they’re really gonna have to do something special between now and then

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Feel sorry for Denly, the boy clearly isn’t good enough but he doesn’t deserve the torrent of abuse he’s received on social media

[compelling and rich]

Not what England needed. Denly goes for 30, 1.81 lower than Sam Curran's average.

Stokes can bat and all the stats show that he prefers to bat first. Still, two left handers at the crease, so I don't think it's long before we see Lyon brought on to bowl an end, which lets Siddle and Australia's opening bowlers off the hook a little for now.

jos in before stokes

[Duty281]

More beautiful bowling from Hazlewood and Aussies back on top. Still don't properly understand Buttler batting ahead of Stokes, but hey ho.

Expecting Lyon to come back on soon - Buttler really struggles against him.

[robbo277]

Not what England needed. Denly goes for 30, 1.81 lower than Sam Curran's average.

Stokes can bat and all the stats show that he prefers to bat first. Still, two left handers at the crease, so I don't think it's long before we see Lyon brought on to bowl an end, which lets Siddle and Australia's opening bowlers off the hook a little for now.

jos in before stokes

Yup. Post edited now.

[Soul Requiem]

Khawaja can only bat in Australia and Pujara is garbage outside of India, hardly world class.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Khawaja can only bat in Australia and Pujara is garbage outside of India, hardly world class.

Pujara getting 3 hundreds in Australia was a myth then?

[alfie]

I went to the loo and Root got out. I went for a shower and Denly got out.

I won’t move from now on, but I’m flying throughout most of tomorrow’s play so they’re really gonna have to do something special between now and then

You are only allowed bathroom breaks at intervals and drink breaks ! Step up , man !

In partial defence of Denly , after my earlier Vince comparison , I will say he was got out by good bowling rather than gifting his wicket with a careless waft.
But the feeling remains that he is a good cricketer ; just not quite good enough to be a Test regular. Hope he can prove me wrong second innings with a big score but not holding my breath...

[Gooseberry]

So is there actually such a thing as a good 3 in world cricket now then?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I went to the loo and Root got out. I went for a shower and Denly got out.

I won’t move from now on, but I’m flying throughout most of tomorrow’s play so they’re really gonna have to do something special between now and then

You are only allowed bathroom breaks at intervals and drink breaks !  Step up , man !

In partial defence of Denly , after my earlier Vince comparison , I will say he was got out by good bowling rather than gifting his wicket with a careless waft.
But the feeling remains that he is a good cricketer ; just not quite good enough to be a Test regular. Hope he can prove me wrong second innings with a big score but not holding my breath...

Yeah can't really have any complaints with that - good delivery by Hazlewood, one of those you hope you don't nick!

[Duty281]

Burns is a lucky, lucky boy part II.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Burns gets away with another one, this time a rather shocking drop by Paine

[Gooseberry]

Alfie defending Denly would be easier if he hasn't been looking like a dead man walking. As you say he's just simply not a good enough player. Roy I just feel is playing too high, Roots feeling the pressure and Bairstow too is batting below his ability. I just can't ever see Denly being good enough even when hidden down the order...a decision I can only assume was made based on a feeling he would cope well with Lyon which is clearly bollocs

[alfie]

Burns having a lot more luck than Siddle today !

Paine should have held that.

[alfie]

Burns fifty ...had a healthy share of luck ! But he's making the most of it so far...

Scoreboard would look pretty sick without him.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Rory “The Cat” Burns.

Denly did well today. Hard position to come into, pressure on him individually too, scores well, done by good bowling.

The questions are more on Roy, and it feels somewhat like there’s extra pressure on Denly because Roy is deemed to be potentially very good there and his failures then get blamed on Denly taking his potential spot.

[alfie]

Alfie  defending Denly would be easier if he hasn't been looking like a dead man walking. As you say he's just simply not a good enough player. Roy I just feel is playing too high, Roots feeling the pressure and Bairstow too is batting below his ability. I just can't ever see Denly being good enough even when hidden down the order...a decision I can only assume was made based on a feeling he would cope well with Lyon which is clearly bollocs

That's why it was only a "partial" defence , Goose...

I share your doubts about Denly ; but I reckon he had played quite well today against some very decent bowling. The fear that he would get out sooner rather than later stems from his past record more than anything else , I'd suggest. At least he saw them from from that perilous opening to the cusp of a hundred. More than some recent England innings !

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