The Ashes - official thread

[Gooseberry]

First topic message reminder :

SR that's not how mental fatigue works.
Also Stokes had a long break last year ...which he came back from err ...mentaly fatigued. Buttler and Bairstow haven't had that luxury.

But anyway it's not a case of "attitude" , ask Trott and Trescothick.

[No name Bertie]

In the first innings Stokes lasted 22 balls and Buttler lasted 23 balls. At least in this second innings Stokes and Buttler have now more or less equalled that - and hopefully can last a few more balls.

[No name Bertie]

In two innings of this second test - Jason Roy lasted a total of 16 (-2) balls for 2 runs, while Joe Root lasted a total of 21 (-2) balls for 14 runs.

[alfie]

For now, I'd just like Buttler and Stokes to survive this last 25 minutes and get through to Sunday. Re-assess then.

180 might be defendable, but England's bowling packs less of a punch than Australia's. And a lot could depend on if Smith is able to bat (think he can) tomorrow.

Smith will bat I'm sure. It isn't broken , I hear ; so even if he's a bit sore he should be OK to bat.

I wouldn't underrate the England bowling. No Lyon ; but Leach is handy when the ball is doing tricks off the surface...and the pace men have all performed pretty well if not as consistently as you'd like. If they could find a way to get Smith cheaply I'd say even 140 might be defendable !

This has been a hard fought Test Match so far. Would be a pity if England fell apart now as they rather did after three tight days at Edgbaston. That is , of course , what tends to happen when one side is markedly stronger than the other. The thing is , apart from the Smith factor , I wouldn't have thought this Australian team is that superior... Guess if they sweep England aside again I might have to reassess

[No name Bertie]

What with five sessions being lost to rain one would hope what remains of England's batting will be physically capable of enduring a period of hostile Australian bowling.

[alfie]

Well they made it to the close...with a bit of good fortune and some determined concentration. Credit to them for that as it's not their normal game...

Crossed fingers for tomorrow

[Duty281]

Great day of cricket. England effectively 104/4 at stumps. And lucky to be only four down.

The test most likely gets decided in the first session tomorrow. Australia must summon up a huge effort and dismiss England in the morning if they're to have a realistic chance of victory. England must bat through into the afternoon to save it.

[KP_fan]

-Although on TMS some commentators were getting excited at possibility of Eng winning.......I don't see how.
At best they can leave 200 for Aus ( by either getting bowled out or decl) in about 60 to 65 overs......if they bat longer game is surely dead.

In 60-65 over Aus might actually be chase it down, or shut shop if they lose early wickets....so chance of Aus losing is not too high.

-Aus hurt their chances by not squeezing Eng more than they did in the last session for 2 reasons

a)dropped catches.....BUT that happens all the time and ain't the big reason.

b)The bigger factor is Lyon's lack of success...and not only could he not get a wicket but gave 20 runs too many in his 9 overs...going at almost 4RPO.

and in general Aus gave away 20-25 runs too many...in those 32.2 overs.
Aus aught to have kept it tighter by atleast 20 runs.

-Aus chances tomm rests on keeping it very, tight.....less than 2RPO and letting wickets come rather than trying too hard.
Aus's chance to win is bowl Eng out in 35 overs letting them score at most another 70 runs.
Chasing 170 in 65 overs is two notches lower in difficulty than 200 in 65 overs.
Every 5 runs saved or scored will make a difference...in this thin margin situation....and keeping runs controlled is the game for tomm.

DRAW is the overwhelming favorite for tomm ( 70%)..followed by Aus win ( 25%) and Eng win ( 5%) in my view

[Duty281]

Agree that Australian lack of control hurt them and England have scored more than you would expect from the 30-odd overs, but disagree about Lyon. He's bowled very well and is mightily unfortunate not to get rewarded in the wickets column - he had two 'three reds' LBW shouts turned down and not reviewed + a drop from Warner + some edges finding the grass. Story of his series really - bowling well without the full rewards.

Very tough to call tomorrow. I can easily envisage England counterattacking and pushing the lead over 200 and to safety. I can also see them collapsing in a heap without getting to 150! The one thing above all is that England must not shut up shop entirely, like they did in 2006 in Adelaide. They have to be positive without being reckless.

As for Australia, it could end up being Warner's test. Played terribly so far, but a brisk-ish last day chase could be right in his wheelhouse. Will be interesting to see how high Australia are willing to go for tomorrow. They would obviously go for a 180 target. But 220? 250 even? Worth remembering we will get the full 98 overs of play (lose two for the changeover), provided conditions are ok, as it's day five.

[alfie]

Agree with most of that , Duty...though I don't think Australia can be criticized too much for lack of control : it was only the Burns/Denly stand that scored at any sort of rate , when they were understandably pushing for a third wicket.

As to what target Australia might chase I think that depends a lot on how the pitch is playing and the state of Smith's fitness for batting. Agree a Warner flying start could be a wild card factor.

As could Archer if he's recovered from his exertions : if the variable bounce becomes more pronounced he might be a real handful. But I still hope they open with Woakes !

[No name Bertie]

Only an England collapse in the first session of the fifth day of play will see an Australian victory - otherwise this match will be drawn. Hopefully Stokes, Buttler and Bairstow will bat out the day - giving great confidence to England's middle batting order for the tests to come.

[alfie]

Only an England collapse in the first session of the fifth day of play will see an Australian victory - otherwise this match will be drawn.  Hopefully Stokes, Buttler and Bairstow will bat out the day - giving great confidence to England's middle batting order for the tests to come.

You'll get long odds on England batting out the day , Bertie ! I just hope they can bat long enough to put the game beyond Australia...but I'm definitely not betting on anything...

[Dolphin Ziggler]

For what it’s worth, I don’t think Archer reacted particularly unsportsmanlike. He wasn’t snarling or proud, he would have seen his teammates there and seen too that Smith didn’t crumble with lack of control.

He didn’t rush off as if he just wanted to throw down something fierce again. He’s a very calm and undemonstrative man, clearly. What happens on the pitch doesn’t always give any suggestion of how these sportsmen (and women) are behind closed doors to each other.

[Duty281]

https://www.accuweather.com/en/gb/st-johns-wood/nw8-9/minute-weather-forecast/709827

Ah, there's some unexpected rain around. Delayed start quite possible.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

For what it’s worth, I don’t think Archer reacted particularly unsportsmanlike. He wasn’t snarling or proud, he would have seen his teammates there and seen too that Smith didn’t crumble with lack of control.

He didn’t rush off as if he just wanted to throw down something fierce again. He’s a very calm and undemonstrative man, clearly. What happens on the pitch doesn’t always give any suggestion of how these sportsmen (and women) are behind closed doors to each other.

Yeah I have only seen the highlights, but any talk of unsportsmanlike for how Archer reacted i simply don’t see. Very much a mountain out of a molehill

Rain delay means we continue to hurtle towards a draw.

[compelling and rich]

cant help but think the rain is a good thing, takes away our chances of a win but i can only see us losing a couple of early wickets and being in real trouble. less time for the aussies to chase the better for me

[Pal Joey]

Pitch inspection in 20 minutes... probably only 15 now.
The cloud seems to be breaking up a little in the distance. Is that where any further rain would be coming from though? Not sure.

Whichever way, compelling... even if they do lose some early wickets and say get bundled out for under an 180 run lead; I'm not sure the Aussies will be too keen to be facing Jofra either. Just had a snippet of him talking about still going for a win.

[Duty281]

We should be underway by 12:30 at the latest, so not too many overs lost. Chances of a draw or Australia win haven't really altered. Further interruptions look unlikely.

And Sibley's made a four-ball duck in the CC!

[Duty281]

Starting at 12:10 - 88 overs in the day, minus two for the change of innings.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

How clear are we of rain throughout the day?

[Duty281]

How clear are we of rain throughout the day?

Pretty clear. Might be the odd touch of drizzle, but nothing prolonged. Expect cricket.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

So far in the County Championship today, the accumulated total is 215-16. Not many people knocking the door down to get in that England top order!

[Duty281]

So far in the County Championship today, the accumulated total is 215-16. Not many people knocking the door down to get in that England top order!

I note, however, that Moeen's on 25* in Worcestershire's heroic effort of 36/6!

Revised playing times for today:
Morning session: 1210 - 1330
Afternoon session: 1410 - 1640
Evening session 17:00-end

Silly cricket logic. Only 80 minutes of play before a 40 minute interval after being initially delayed by 70 minutes. Silly cricket.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Wow Steve smith out of today with concussion. Makes you wonder how he was allowed back on the field yesterday, he was clearly rattled when he came back out to bat

[Duty281]

Wow Steve smith out of today with concussion. Makes you wonder how he was allowed back on the field yesterday, he was clearly rattled when he came back out to bat

Could have massive ramifications - he might miss the third test as that's later this week.

[compelling and rich]

Wow Steve smith out of today with concussion. Makes you wonder how he was allowed back on the field yesterday, he was clearly rattled when he came back out to bat

Englands chance of a win just has improved dramatically, 180 would be a tough chase without him

[JDizzle]

Wow Steve smith out of today with concussion. Makes you wonder how he was allowed back on the field yesterday, he was clearly rattled when he came back out to bat

An absolute shambles all round. All this talk of ‘bravery’ and Smith being adamant he was coming back out is dangerous language to use. You are not a coward if you don’t come back out again with an obvious concussion.

[Soul Requiem]

That's one way for Jofra to make an impact.

[alfie]

How clear are we of rain throughout the day?

Pretty clear. Might be the odd touch of drizzle, but nothing prolonged. Expect cricket.

I doubt anyone has ever made money betting on a British weather forecast being accurate

Hasn't today gone from "near total washout" to " sunny skies" and on to this over the last few days ? I believe what I see on the TV pictures...

But OK , I guess we might see play onwards from here. Still technically anything can happen ...but a pity we lost those ten overs . (At least : light may be a factor later if they are playing overtime)

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Wow Steve smith out of today with concussion. Makes you wonder how he was allowed back on the field yesterday, he was clearly rattled when he came back out to bat

An absolute shambles all round. All this talk of ‘bravery’ and Smith being adamant he was coming back out is dangerous language to use. You are not a coward if you don’t come back out again with an obvious concussion.

Yeah and you can bring in concussion rules but if the physio and team are clearly going to ignore them and send out a bloke with concussion to bat again, what’s the point? Needs to be properly enforced and the Aussies medical staff looked into

[GSC]

it may be he passed the initial check then it deteriorated later.

think theres a fair case to be made that anyone who has to leave the field with a head injury shouldn't bat again on the same day though

[compelling and rich]

always thought there should be a independent doctor for things such as concussion. played on at rugby fair few times myself when i shouldn't have, competitive sportsman always will. needs to be taken out of theirs and their teams hands

[alfie]

So the new concussion substitute rule is being invoked...

Last match , Jimmy should have banged his head on the dressing room door on his way off

Seriously : Labuschagne could conceivably play a part later today , depending on how things go. He will be able to bowl too once he's approved...

[GSC]

there is independent doctors in the nfl for concussions who can rule players out for the game

[compelling and rich]

So the new concussion substitute rule is being invoked...

didnt know this was a rule, so he can bat and bowl if needs be

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

it may be he passed the initial check then it deteriorated later.

think theres a fair case to be made that anyone who has to leave the field with a head injury shouldn't bat again on the same day though

"Cricket Australia statistics show that 30 per cent of concussions in Australian cricket are delayed. It is not uncommon for players to pass their tests and feel well on the day of an injury and then display symptoms 24 - 48 hours later."

Begs the question, is it really that wise for them to be allowed to resume before this window has expired?

[Soul Requiem]

I think it's safe to say that England will go head hunting whenever Smith returns now as will a few other teams.

[GSC]

common sense would say you get removed for at least the days play, yeah.

[alfie]

it may be he passed the initial check then it deteriorated later.

think theres a fair case to be made that anyone who has to leave the field with a head injury shouldn't bat again on the same day though

Tricky thing , concussion. Can often have delayed effect. I tend to agree he shouldn't have come back out to bat ...but would have been hard to stop him if he said he was OK. Not too surprised they are reluctant to risk him today.

The new rule is going to take some getting used to. In theory it is open to abuse , as once the player has been assessed by his own medical staff they can make a decision based on the state of the game. In this case , obviously it was Smith or no-one to bat first innings ...today they have a choice. (Not meaning to imply any skulduggery from Australia - think it was all honest decision making in real time. But you can see the loopholes , no ?)

[Duty281]

Buttler firmly in survival mode. Only 16 runs added so far this morning, keeping Australia well in the contest.

[Soul Requiem]

I cannot believe that Australia followed the protocols properly when you see what had happened, it was obvious to all that Smith was in no condition to continue. It's the second time in as many matches he's been hit now and during the first test he lost his legs.

[Duty281]

Oh dear, Joel Wilson struggling to work out whether the bat hit ball in super slow-motion...and he's umpiring at Leeds this week!

[JDizzle]

it may be he passed the initial check then it deteriorated later.

think theres a fair case to be made that anyone who has to leave the field with a head injury shouldn't bat again on the same day though

Tricky thing , concussion.  Can often have delayed effect.  I tend to agree he shouldn't have come back out to bat ...but would have been hard to stop him if he said he was OK.  Not too surprised they are reluctant to risk him today.

The new rule is going to take some getting used to.  In theory it is open to abuse , as once the player has been assessed by his own medical staff they can make a decision based on the state of the game.  In this case , obviously it was Smith or no-one to bat first innings ...today they have a choice. (Not meaning to imply any skulduggery from Australia - think it was all honest decision making in real time. But you can see the loopholes , no ?)

If you are basing the decision on whether Smith himself says he is okay then they are doing it wrong I think. Welsh rugby had an incident a couple of years ago with George North where he was obviously out and they let him play on - and after that they were almost shamed into being extra careful which is the way to go when it comes to concussion.

Also, the extra padding on the helmets has to become mandatory.

[alfie]

This is the scratchiest/edgiest innings from Ben Stokes I can recall...

Can't blame him too much - Lyon posing a lot of problems for the left hander on this pitch. Think Australia should have a more aggressive field for Lyon.

[alfie]

Oh dear, Joel Wilson struggling to work out whether the bat hit ball in super slow-motion...and he's umpiring at Leeds this week!

Pretty clear it's pitched outside leg anyway. Suppose he had to check the edge first...and be sure. He's not an umpire to fill you with confidence though , is he ?

[Duty281]

Oh dear, Joel Wilson struggling to work out whether the bat hit ball in super slow-motion...and he's umpiring at Leeds this week!

Pretty clear it's pitched outside leg anyway. Suppose he had to check the edge first...and be sure.  He's not an umpire to fill you with confidence though , is he ?

He isn't. Expecting a lot of successful referrals in the third test!

[Pal Joey]

This is the scratchiest/edgiest innings from Ben Stokes I can recall...

Can't blame him too much - Lyon posing a lot of problems for the left hander on this pitch.  Think Australia should have a more aggressive field for Lyon.

Exactly... would have thought they'd heap more pressure on The Duke of Affray especially.
Looks far too comfortable for both batsmen at the moment.

[Duty281]

So the new concussion substitute rule is being invoked...

Last match , Jimmy should have banged his head on the dressing room door on his way off

Does seem odd that you can make a football/rugby-style substitution for a concussion, but if you do your calf or tear your hamstring or fracture an arm etc. the team has to soldier on with 10 men.

[compelling and rich]

it may be he passed the initial check then it deteriorated later.

think theres a fair case to be made that anyone who has to leave the field with a head injury shouldn't bat again on the same day though

Tricky thing , concussion.  Can often have delayed effect.  I tend to agree he shouldn't have come back out to bat ...but would have been hard to stop him if he said he was OK.  Not too surprised they are reluctant to risk him today.

The new rule is going to take some getting used to.  In theory it is open to abuse , as once the player has been assessed by his own medical staff they can make a decision based on the state of the game.  In this case , obviously it was Smith or no-one to bat first innings ...today they have a choice. (Not meaning to imply any skulduggery from Australia - think it was all honest decision making in real time. But you can see the loopholes , no ?)

its definitely open to abuse especially if a batsman has completed both his innings (if he got injured in 2nd innings). they can bring in a extra bowler

say if roy said he was feeling a bit dizzy now

[No name Bertie]

This is the scratchiest/edgiest innings from Ben Stokes I can recall...

Can't blame him too much - Lyon posing a lot of problems for the left hander on this pitch.  Think Australia should have a more aggressive field for Lyon.

As long as he bats safe with discipline then I am happy for him & Buttler - working their way back into some sort of batting form.

With regard to Steve Smith and concussion - the ball seemed to hit his neck rather than his head - but I suppose it must have clipped him on the lower part of the jaw and then the impact reverberated up to his brain. He did seem sort of out of it when he was dismissed plumb lbw without offering a shot or block of any kind.

[Duty281]

Looks as though this match is dribbling to a safe conclusion, hopefully Buttler and Stokes finding some form out in the middle. Suppose Paine really regrets not reviewing the one against Stokes last night!

Some talk of England declaring, but I'm afraid I don't see the point. Bowling Australia out in 40-50 overs is a dream. Like Trent Bridge 2015 or that bizarre final day against Sri Lanka in Cardiff in 2011.

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