The Ashes - official thread

[Gooseberry]

First topic message reminder :

SR that's not how mental fatigue works.
Also Stokes had a long break last year ...which he came back from err ...mentaly fatigued. Buttler and Bairstow haven't had that luxury.

But anyway it's not a case of "attitude" , ask Trott and Trescothick.

[Gooseberry]

England and troy Cooley have openly talked about. Trescothick said he had a pocket full of Murray mints he used to dish out to such on so when they spay on the ball it would transfer the sugar syrup. Its where all the nonsense with jelly beams cam efrom later. It wss never a compelte secret, just they wanted to hide exactly what they were doing so others couldn't imitate
Again no great coincidence that the Australian bowlers found a lot of improved success when they employed him. England players were then willing to openly talk about the methods they'd developed under him.

That action at the time was considered on the ambiguous grey side of ball legal ball management, since the crackdown it's not. There's a constant tension. Between pushing the boundaries of interpreting the laws and the laws being revisited and spirit of cricket reinterpreted. Also see the use of fielding substitutes by England ( gary pratt?) In that 05 series. Was it cheating or smart use of the laws?

Sandpapering the ball has never been considered anything other than straight up willfull breaking of the laws and cheating, same as the bottle caps and running on concrete of that Pakistan used in the 80s. There's no grey area misunderstanding or ambiguity, it was win at all costs mentality endorsed and encouraged from the top.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Ollie Pope has been called up to Leeds to act as standby for Jason Roy for the third #Ashes Test and will play no further part in our @CountyChamp match with @hantscricket.

Tweet from Surrey. Obviously England not convinced Roy will be ok, and the fact it’s Pope and not Sibley would suggest Roy is moving to the middle order?

[robbo277]

Ollie Pope has been called up to Leeds to act as standby for Jason Roy for the third #Ashes Test and will play no further part in our @CountyChamp match with @hantscricket.

Tweet from Surrey. Obviously England not convinced Roy will be ok, and the fact it’s Pope and not Sibley would suggest Roy is moving to the middle order?

He's passed his first concussion test but needs to have a second one tomorrow. With Smith passing a concussion test on Saturday and worsening overnight it would be premature to pass Roy fit now, but I don't think there are currently any major concerns.

[Gooseberry]

Ollie Pope has been called up to Leeds to act as standby for Jason Roy for the third #Ashes Test and will play no further part in our @CountyChamp match with @hantscricket.

Tweet from Surrey. Obviously England not convinced Roy will be ok, and the fact it’s Pope and not Sibley would suggest Roy is moving to the middle order?

He's passed his first concussion test but needs to have a second one tomorrow. With Smith passing a concussion test on Saturday and worsening overnight it would be premature to pass Roy fit now, but I don't think there are currently any major concerns.

Not entirely sure it does mean he was due to drop down to middle order given the Bayliss comments (which seemed to say sure we should move him down but we wont), just that they think Denly is better placed to be a short term replacement opener than Sibley. They do seem keen to have as much as experience as possible in the top 3, that was the big justification for Root being there and staying there. Sure Denly is a pretty new test player too but hes been around the side for nearly a year and has a lot more county experience. Can also understand then not wanting to bring Sibley in for just one game.

Im also not sure how dramatic this "call up" really is, Sibley and Pope were on the bench as concussion replacements for the previous tests and unavailable for their counties.

Pope does deserve another shot with England mind

[Soul Requiem]

I'd rather Pope was left at Surrey for the rest of the season, can imagine England ruining him with the constant call ups without playing.

[robbo277]

I'd rather Pope was left at Surrey for the rest of the season, can imagine England ruining him with the constant call ups without playing.

I'd agree with this and the above. He's only concussion cover so it's not a "proper" call-up. If possible it would be good to leave him with Surrey for the season, then have him tour.

If we wanted to rest the established test players who also play white ball, we could take have a top 6 for NZ of Burns, Sibley, Denly, Roy, Pope, Foakes, which would give us 2 actual openers and a WK/batsman, leaving us space for two all rounders (Curran, Gregory?) and 3 bowlers (Archer, Leach, Stone?)

[alfie]

I'd rather Pope was left at Surrey for the rest of the season, can imagine England ruining him with the constant call ups without playing.

I'd agree with this and the above. He's only concussion cover so it's not a "proper" call-up. If possible it would be good to leave him with Surrey for the season, then have him tour.

If we wanted to rest the established test players who also play white ball, we could take have a top 6 for NZ of Burns, Sibley, Denly, Roy, Pope, Foakes, which would give us 2 actual openers and a WK/batsman, leaving us space for two all rounders (Curran, Gregory?) and 3 bowlers (Archer, Leach, Stone?)

I fear that XI would rather disrespect NZ and invite an absolute hammering ! England just are not strong enough to send a "second XI". There may be some resting and rotation ; but surely not to that degree.

Apart from that I do think Pope will tour. And agree with Goose he is on standby as they would prefer a bit more experience at the top if Roy were ruled out at the last minute - and he has substantially outscored Sibley this week ! Still expect Roy to open provided he is OK.

[sirfredperry]

Reckon if England bat first today they will win. Just a pity England could not have won one of the first two Tests. Now just a single Aus victory will mean they retain the Ashes. Reckon the series will finish 2-2.

Can't get too excited about this so-called Test championship. I expect most fans will do what they normally do - take each series as it comes and not be concerned about a league "table".

Already got next year's Test dates in my diary. The Oval gets the first Test of the summer.

[GSC]

Harris in for Bancroft and Pattinson for Siddle apparently

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I'd rather Pope was left at Surrey for the rest of the season, can imagine England ruining him with the constant call ups without playing.

I'd agree with this and the above. He's only concussion cover so it's not a "proper" call-up. If possible it would be good to leave him with Surrey for the season, then have him tour.

If we wanted to rest the established test players who also play white ball, we could take have a top 6 for NZ of Burns, Sibley, Denly, Roy, Pope, Foakes, which would give us 2 actual openers and a WK/batsman, leaving us space for two all rounders (Curran, Gregory?) and 3 bowlers (Archer, Leach, Stone?)

I fear that XI would rather disrespect NZ and invite an absolute hammering !  England just are not strong enough to send a "second XI".   There may be some resting and rotation ; but surely not to that degree.

Apart from that I do think Pope will tour.  And agree with Goose he is on standby as they would prefer a bit more experience at the top if Roy were ruled out at the last minute - and he has substantially outscored Sibley this week !  Still expect Roy to open provided he is OK.

I think you're going to see the guys who've played World Cup and Ashes rested - so Root, Buttler, Stokes, Woakes, Bairstow, Archer rather than "experienced" guys - I would imagine Broad would play for example. It is only a 2 test series, that doesn't count towards the World Test Championship like the other tours this winter, so it does present a great opportunity to "test" some players like Pope, Sibley, Gregory etc

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Reports coming out of the Aussie camp is that Harris will replace Bancroft at the top of the order, Labuschagne in for Smith and Pattinson to replace Siddle. Still no Starc!

Unconfirmed...but 'tis what the usual reliable journos are saying

[Soul Requiem]

Still no Mitchell Starc?

Harris for Bancroft is a no brainer and should have happened at the beginning of the series but not sure about a seam trio of Pattinson, Hazelwood and Cummins, seems likely that one will break down in this series at some point.

[Duty281]

Reports coming out of the Aussie camp is that Harris will replace Bancroft at the top of the order, Labuschagne in for Smith and Pattinson to replace Siddle. Still no Starc!

Unconfirmed...but 'tis what the usual reliable journos are saying

Good, positive selection from Australia. In spite of Smith's injury, they still look a stronger team on paper than England - 2/1 on Australia, it's another bargain. Especially as Headingley is a ground England don't have a good record at.

Speaking of which, I live a stone's throw from Headingley cricket ground and there's heavy, dark cloud around at the moment, not much rain forecasted though. I wonder if either Australia or England will decide at the last moment to go with an all-seam attack? The latter are probably the likeliest to do that.

[Gooseberry]

In terms of the winter tours its already said there will be some rotation due to the extreme schedule the 3 format players have been through. Archer though has only spent 5 months in the line, I cant see any reason he wont be in all the squads and maybe just have his load managed with some limited over games off off. In terms of the winter tours its already said there will be some rotation due to the extreme schedule the 3 format players have been through. Archer though has only spent 5 months in the line, I cant see any reason he wont be in all the squads and maybe just have his load managed with some limited over games off.

As for an experienced top 3 replacement ...who? Pope is neither experienced nor a top 3 player. Malan is probably the nearest that exists but thats pushing it.

For Aus, Harris is a bit of a hindsight pick. Bancroft had the better build up duffing up county attacks and crucially made big runs in the Aus vs Aus game where Harris failed. Starc still out, well Cummins has been the absolute leader of the attack and is has been said theres an intention he will play every game. The others seem to be getting rotated according to conditions, with no more than two of the three out and out pacemen being played (understandable in a 4 bowler attack). I guess the surprise is that we have always seen Starc as number one, although Aus were quite clear that Pattinson and Cummins have overtaken him in tests now and even him being the leader of the attack at the world cup wasnt a given. But given his record against England, how well he bowled at the world cup and that it gives Aus a left right combination it would be a huge surprise not to see him at all. Maybe they also have a theory about the England top order vs right armers, which is contrary to history where they have struggled against left arm seam (well they struggle against everything tbh but the stats vs left armers are even more horrid)

Another thing thats interesting is that its Aus choosing to make unforced changes to their side, despite being ahead in the series. Maybe an acknowledgement that England had the upper hand in the last game?

England really do need to win this and should have a level of confidence. Lambuschange is no Smith, he averages half what Smith does in the period hes been playing tests. The other changes don't add or take much away from the side, its still a dodgy batting line up. Theres a fair argument that theres been an element of bad luck thats led to them being 1-0 down, they certainly havent been played off the park consistently. If Englands bowlers turn up in the same way they did in the last test and someone in their top order can get their lives together then it should be a pretty comfortable game for them....first win in 8 tests vs Aus? No counting chickens but if they are going to get back into the series it has to be this game.

[GSC]

currently raining, might not be a bad toss to lose

[Duty281]

Probably a bowl-first morning, particularly when you consider the weaknesses of both sides batting line-ups.

[alfie]

Thought the weather was supposed to be fine ? Ha... British weather less reliable even than Melbourne. Trust we are not going to have another rain plagued match ?

Suppose I had better revisit the tipping comp. if Bancroft is out...

[alfie]

Reports coming out of the Aussie camp is that Harris will replace Bancroft at the top of the order, Labuschagne in for Smith and Pattinson to replace Siddle. Still no Starc!

Unconfirmed...but 'tis what the usual reliable journos are saying

Good, positive selection from Australia. In spite of Smith's injury, they still look a stronger team on paper than England - 2/1 on Australia, it's another bargain. Especially as Headingley is a ground England don't have a good record at.

Speaking of which, I live a stone's throw from Headingley cricket ground and there's heavy, dark cloud around at the moment, not much rain forecasted though. I wonder if either Australia or England will decide at the last moment to go with an all-seam attack? The latter are probably the likeliest to do that.

Well there is no way Australia would leave Lyon out. Think England would be nuts to do so either but perhaps given their track record that's not out of the question
Is the "dark cloud " locked in for the next five days ?

[GSC]

toss in 10 minutes, play in 25.

supposedly it's going to be overcast all day, then mixed for the rest of the test.

might be the best bowling conditions now, but by all accounts it's a batting pitch

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Reports coming out of the Aussie camp is that Harris will replace Bancroft at the top of the order, Labuschagne in for Smith and Pattinson to replace Siddle. Still no Starc!

Unconfirmed...but 'tis what the usual reliable journos are saying

Good, positive selection from Australia. In spite of Smith's injury, they still look a stronger team on paper than England - 2/1 on Australia, it's another bargain. Especially as Headingley is a ground England don't have a good record at.

Speaking of which, I live a stone's throw from Headingley cricket ground and there's heavy, dark cloud around at the moment, not much rain forecasted though. I wonder if either Australia or England will decide at the last moment to go with an all-seam attack? The latter are probably the likeliest to do that.

Well there is no way Australia would leave Lyon out.  Think England would be nuts to do so either but perhaps given their track record that's not out of the question
Is the "dark cloud " locked in for the next five days ?

Shouldn't be much rain about for the rest of the game, just the odd short shower like this out of nowhere! Don't think it's going to be baking sun either though...

[eirebilly]

I would still opt to bat myself.

[Duty281]

Reports coming out of the Aussie camp is that Harris will replace Bancroft at the top of the order, Labuschagne in for Smith and Pattinson to replace Siddle. Still no Starc!

Unconfirmed...but 'tis what the usual reliable journos are saying

Good, positive selection from Australia. In spite of Smith's injury, they still look a stronger team on paper than England - 2/1 on Australia, it's another bargain. Especially as Headingley is a ground England don't have a good record at.

Speaking of which, I live a stone's throw from Headingley cricket ground and there's heavy, dark cloud around at the moment, not much rain forecasted though. I wonder if either Australia or England will decide at the last moment to go with an all-seam attack? The latter are probably the likeliest to do that.

Well there is no way Australia would leave Lyon out.  Think England would be nuts to do so either but perhaps given their track record that's not out of the question
Is the "dark cloud " locked in for the next five days ?

Would agree, but England's selections are often muddled these days! Think we have a couple of days of dark cloud, then brightening up over the weekend.

[alfie]

Maybe bat anyway then. If you were to skittle the opposition you'd probably have to bat in similar conditions in response so not a lot gained ? Third innings then becomes the key.

In truth it shouldn't matter . This pitch usually is OK for batting these days except when overhead cloud gives the bowlers a chance ...and that will surely be intermittent throughout ? Whoever handles it better...

[GSC]

Root fancies a bowl then.

makes sense with a reshaped batting lineup

[GSC]

England unchanged, the reported changes for Aus all true

[Duty281]

Root wins and elects to field first. I hope Broad + Woakes take the new ball and that they pitch the thing up. Archer was wasteful with the new ball last time.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

For some reason the only seeming change to England's batting lineup is Buttler to 7...

[eirebilly]

I would have batted but hey ho.

I just hope Root starts with Broad and Woakes. Archer I see more as an impact bowler.

[Duty281]

For some reason the only seeming change to England's batting lineup is Buttler to 7...

Just seen that. For pity's sake, England!

[alfie]

For some reason the only seeming change to England's batting lineup is Buttler to 7...

Surely a misprint ? I'd expect them to stay the same unless common sense arrives suddenly and Root and Denly swap.

Bowling first , eh ? Well it sometimes works here...but I hope they aren't just assuming Archer is automatically going to blow Australia away. Agree with Duty and eirebilly I'd open Woakes and Broad as they are the ones most likely to strike with early swing...Archer will be equally effective ten overs in.

They won't though.

[robbo277]

Woakes is our best swing bowler and if the clouds are in then he needs to open the bowling. You can have Broad at the other end and Archer coming on after 4 overs or vica versa, but Woakes needs to open with a long spell.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

For some reason the only seeming change to England's batting lineup is Buttler to 7...

Surely a misprint ?  I'd expect them to stay the same unless common sense arrives suddenly and Root and Denly swap.

Bowling first , eh ?  Well it sometimes works here...but I hope they aren't just assuming Archer is automatically going to blow Australia away. Agree with Duty and eirebilly I'd open Woakes and Broad as they are the ones most likely to strike with early swing...Archer will be equally effective ten overs in.  

They won't though.

Not a misprint - confirmed. Makes absolutely no sense to me - Buttler got some time in the middle last test, Bairstow finally showed some form with the bat - so hey, lets switch them from those positions and bat them in completely different positions. Madness!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

There's a chance here looking at the forecast this rain may set in for a while...in which case England might have just bowled first based on conditions, which they may not get to use...eek

Positive thinking......

I predict England bowing the Aussies out for 179, with Jofra getting 6.

And with the weather meaning we are on and off, we’ll get the last wicket in the final over and not need to bat until the better weather tomorrow.

Wishful thinking I know, but if Carlsberg did Ashes tests!!!

[robbo277]

In non-current news but with a view to the next test, Anderson got through 9 overs (2-23) for Lancashire 2nds. Bowled within himself a bit but brought his speeds up as he went on and bowled without discomfort.

Full article: https://www.bbc.com/sport/cricket/49398341

NB: Just seen this was on the 20th August. He didn't bat in the first innings and hasn't bowled yet in the second innings (which is 54 overs old) so maybe he's been withdrawn from the game?

[Soul Requiem]

I don't understand why Buttler is at seven, if he's not good enough to bat in the top five then drop him and bring in Ollie Pope and give him an extended run.

[alfie]

Does seem daft , Olly. But they have a knack of doing stupid things , the current management. Whenever anything seems to be working - they like to change it

[robbo277]

We've got an opener shifted to 4 because our top 3 was too inexperienced and a specialist bat shifted to 7. It does seem strange that players are playing in positions below where their role entails them to play.

[alfie]

I don't understand why Buttler is at seven, if he's not good enough to bat in the top five then drop him and bring in Ollie Pope and give him an extended run.

Well, surely they think Buttler is worth a spot. And indeed he batted OK second innings last week so why the need to ""protect " him again ?

Sooner Bayliss quits and Smith gets sacked from the selector's position the better. Any good results since that team got together are despite rather than because of decisions they've made.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

A lot of people in the ground tweeting the rain has stopped, but the umpires are out there with umbrellas up in classic cricket fashion waiting around. Get on with the game ffs!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

A lot of people in the ground tweeting the rain has stopped, but the umpires are out there with umbrellas up in classic cricket fashion waiting around. Get on with the game ffs!

https://twitter.com/georgedobell1/status/1164487202212106240?s=21

[Duty281]

A lot of people in the ground tweeting the rain has stopped, but the umpires are out there with umbrellas up in classic cricket fashion waiting around. Get on with the game ffs!

Hardly rained all morning in truth. Outfield probably isn't even damp!

[KP_fan]

Teams batting 4th rarely win these days......so SL's win was a huge exception

[Duty281]

Play to start at 12:10. Lunch at 1:30. Cricket.

And don't forget, dear Joel Wilson is umpiring! DRS at the ready.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Broad and Archer doing the proper warm ups

[eirebilly]

Surely Root must open with Woakes… What does he see bad in him that the rest of us don't?

[Soul Requiem]

I don't understand why Buttler is at seven, if he's not good enough to bat in the top five then drop him and bring in Ollie Pope and give him an extended run.

Well, surely they think Buttler is worth a spot. And indeed he batted OK second innings last week so why the need to ""protect " him again ?

Sooner Bayliss quits and Smith gets sacked from the selector's position the better.  Any good results since that team got together are despite rather than because of decisions they've made.

If he's worth a spot then it should be as a proper batsmen, the balance of the team just seems wrong with him and Bairstow playing. Now don't get me wrong I'm all for Pope not getting rushed into the team but it's just another example of muddled thinking.

[alfie]

Wonder if Woakes will see the ball inside the first ten overs ? Cannot understand it : he was the main early wicket taker in the later part of the World Cup , took a bag of wickets against Ireland , and got early breaks again at Edgbaston...and suddenly he's reduced to "third seamer"

[Duty281]

If Root doesn't like you, he doesn't like you. And he doesn't like Woakes, that much is apparent!

Underbowled in the second innings at Edgbaston (that session where we all speculated Woakes was injured), under bowled at Lord's where he is potent, and now not taking the new ball in perfect overhead conditions for him.

[eirebilly]

The batting line up issues pale in comparison to Woakes not getting the new ball in these conditions. If Root does not rate him, don't select him. It really is poor man management.

I get the feeling that Root will bowl Archer to the point of breaking down as well...

[alfie]

I don't understand why Buttler is at seven, if he's not good enough to bat in the top five then drop him and bring in Ollie Pope and give him an extended run.

Well, surely they think Buttler is worth a spot. And indeed he batted OK second innings last week so why the need to ""protect " him again ?

Sooner Bayliss quits and Smith gets sacked from the selector's position the better.  Any good results since that team got together are despite rather than because of decisions they've made.

If he's worth a spot then it should be as a proper batsmen, the balance of the team just seems wrong with him and Bairstow playing. Now don't get me wrong I'm all for Pope not getting rushed into the team but it's just another example of muddled thinking.

Well yes indeed. I don't mind them picking the two JBs ...as long as the one that isn't keeping is justifying a top six batting spot. But otherwise it makes little sense.

Suspect it is a throw back to the original "theory" in selecting Buttler last year : the idea that he can be a " destructive finisher" at seven. Never mind that seven these days is usually taxed with rescuing the team from collapse. Or that Buttler has through a lot of work just about made himself a selectable number five/ six. Why stick with a plan that might work if you can indulge some wild fantasy...

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