The Ashes - official thread

[KP_fan]

First topic message reminder :

Cummins was out no doubt about that, not sure what he was complaining about to be honest, a clear noise and deviation off the bat.

why were there 2 deviations?
one clearly before the ball had passed the bat and nothing seemed to be touching anything then...and the second when ball passes the bat.
Both deviations looking similar...put a question mark over the correct functioning of Snicko

that said 3rd umpire could have done nothing different than upholding the onfield ump

[alfie]

Ah you never know...

Maybe Archer and Broad go nuts and bowl Australia out for fifty ?

Not that I'm putting money on it

[compelling and rich]

If we're having a clear out, I would like to see this team going forward.

Sibley, Hain, Northeast, Root, Pope, Stokes, Foakes, Woakes, Broad, Archer, Leach.

Leach will have to suffice for now, but I don't think he's a long-term choice. Anderson could come in for Woakes if the former is fit enough though, even if he is, it is perhaps time to think about the future. Give the captaincy to anyone but Root.

I said before that it's time to split the test and ODI team entirely, we need to get players playing first class cricket before being thrown into an important test series, how many FC games has this team played between it this year?

so your not playing stokes and archer in your test side?

I should have made it clear that was in reference to the batting only, Archer stays but Stokes is a tricky one, far better player than his average suggests but is prone to ridiculous shots that get him out; Roy, Buttler and Bairstow shouldn't be anywhere near the test team.

I can certainly see where your coming from. problem being t20 and the shorter format is where the moneys at. most talented batsmen coming through are going to want to play the shorter format if possible

[Duty281]

Wouldn't be surprised if Root resigns the captaincy after this test. Though the series isn't, yet, lost after this incoming defeat, the urn is. And his record as captain against Australia will read - played 8, lost 6, drew 2, won 0.

A comeback you say? Could bowl Australia out for 0 and I wouldn't back England to chase 113!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Ah you never know...

Maybe Archer and Broad go nuts and bowl Australia out for fifty ?

Not that I'm putting money on it

I've seen this story before Alfie, I think we're set for a Mr Warner ton here...

[Soul Requiem]

If we're having a clear out, I would like to see this team going forward.

Sibley, Hain, Northeast, Root, Pope, Stokes, Foakes, Woakes, Broad, Archer, Leach.

Leach will have to suffice for now, but I don't think he's a long-term choice. Anderson could come in for Woakes if the former is fit enough though, even if he is, it is perhaps time to think about the future. Give the captaincy to anyone but Root.

I said before that it's time to split the test and ODI team entirely, we need to get players playing first class cricket before being thrown into an important test series, how many FC games has this team played between it this year?

so your not playing stokes and archer in your test side?

I should have made it clear that was in reference to the batting only, Archer stays but Stokes is a tricky one, far better player than his average suggests but is prone to ridiculous shots that get him out; Roy, Buttler and Bairstow shouldn't be anywhere near the test team.

I can certainly see where your coming from. problem being t20 and the shorter format is where the moneys at. most talented batsmen coming through are going to want to play the shorter format if possible

Then let them play the shorter format, I'd much rather see someone like Sibley fail while trying to apply himself properly than someone like Roy not even bothering.

[Soul Requiem]

Stuart Broad this is all on you, another 8-12 would do nicely.

[superflyweight]

I think one way or another Root's captaincy needs to end. It's more than it's affecting his batting and he's not showing any particular Brierlyesque talent as a captain that would make the sacrifice in his batting worthwhile.

[Duty281]

Well Broad continues his stranglehold over Warner. That's something.

[alfie]

If we're having a clear out, I would like to see this team going forward.

Sibley, Hain, Northeast, Root, Pope, Stokes, Foakes, Woakes, Broad, Archer, Leach.

Leach will have to suffice for now, but I don't think he's a long-term choice. Anderson could come in for Woakes if the former is fit enough though, even if he is, it is perhaps time to think about the future. Give the captaincy to anyone but Root.

I said before that it's time to split the test and ODI team entirely, we need to get players playing first class cricket before being thrown into an important test series, how many FC games has this team played between it this year?

so your not playing stokes and archer in your test side?

I should have made it clear that was in reference to the batting only, Archer stays but Stokes is a tricky one, far better player than his average suggests but is prone to ridiculous shots that get him out; Roy, Buttler and Bairstow shouldn't be anywhere near the test team.

I know you are itching to get rid of Bairstow , Soul ... But he was one of the better bats at Lord's and has been keeping pretty well. Why not leave him at seven where he belongs and do something with that wretched top order ? Buttler after last year's efforts may have just a little credit left ; though if it is true he's mentally suffering might be time for Pope. Roy needs a second innings hundred...

Duck for Warner !

[Pal Joey]

Drop him!

[compelling and rich]

another 9 wickets for around 20 runs and i'd give us a 20% chance of winning

[Afro]

I'm going for 67 all out..

[alfie]

Ah you never know...

Maybe Archer and Broad go nuts and bowl Australia out for fifty ?

Not that I'm putting money on it

I've seen this story before Alfie, I think we're set for a Mr Warner ton here...

Not quite

Labuschagne (the New Smith ?) might get one though...

[Soul Requiem]

If we're having a clear out, I would like to see this team going forward.

Sibley, Hain, Northeast, Root, Pope, Stokes, Foakes, Woakes, Broad, Archer, Leach.

Leach will have to suffice for now, but I don't think he's a long-term choice. Anderson could come in for Woakes if the former is fit enough though, even if he is, it is perhaps time to think about the future. Give the captaincy to anyone but Root.

I said before that it's time to split the test and ODI team entirely, we need to get players playing first class cricket before being thrown into an important test series, how many FC games has this team played between it this year?

so your not playing stokes and archer in your test side?

I should have made it clear that was in reference to the batting only, Archer stays but Stokes is a tricky one, far better player than his average suggests but is prone to ridiculous shots that get him out; Roy, Buttler and Bairstow shouldn't be anywhere near the test team.

I know you are itching to get rid of Bairstow , Soul ... But he was one of the better bats at Lord's and has been keeping pretty well. Why not leave him at seven where he belongs and do something with that wretched top order ?   Buttler after last year's efforts may have just a little credit left ; though if it is true he's mentally suffering might be time for Pope.  Roy needs a second innings hundred...

Duck for Warner !

Bairstow produces one innings and we should keep with him despite being part of the problem, he's simply not good enough to be a test batsmen and he's not the best keeper either.

[Gooseberry]

Well SR with the batsmen tried instead of him being worse so far I'm sure you'll be ablento come up with 4 replacements no problem.

[Afro]

I've never understood why we link the ODI and Test set-up so much.

They should be separate selectors, coaches etc. I appreciate that there will be players who play in both, and that they do need to speak (so players are overworked), but they should have specialist set-ups for each.

Its like Gareth Southgate picking the England beach football side, or Eddie Jones being in charge of the England 7s side

[alfie]

Relieving Root of the burden of captaincy might seem attractive ...but who would take it on ?
None of the batsmen are really secure in the team : basically all have enough to worry about ! There is no Brearley hovering in the background. (Morgan is knackered from the WC by his own admission and anyway isn't a Test bat.)
Broad ? You surely wouldn't want to weigh down Stokes with the job , even if he is no longer as volatile as before his brush with the law.

Maybe they can ask Sir Chef to come back to open for the last two matches and fill in as skipper while he's at it

Is a right mess. I do agree Root is wearing a haunted look : do not see a happy ending.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

You’ve got an awful lot of confidence in these CC players who haven’t made this team. Or there’s quite a kneejerk happening.

I suspect they’d soon be found wanting too, if all thrown in

[Duty281]

It's a choice between picking players who we know aren't good enough - Burns/Roy/Denly - and picking players who may or may not be good enough - Sibley, Pope, Hain, Northeast.

[Soul Requiem]

Buttler, Roy and Bairstow don't play enough FC cricket and it shows so you're left with two options.

1) You drop them from the ODI side, block them playing franchise cricket and get them to play for their counties

or

2) You select players playing FC cricket who are performing ok and hope they make the step up, the ECB also need to be tougher on pitch preparation which has been abysmal for a number of years now.

The first option is never going to happen so you're left with option two; Sibley, Crawley, Pope and Foakes come to mind, far from ideal but can't be worse than it is now.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Enjoying getting people to play FC cricket being the answer, like we haven't spent the past half decade or so trying to replace Strauss and Trott with the next best "FC batsman".

I don't know what the answer is, but suggesting just playing County cricket is, isn't. Because we've seen them come in and fail repeatedly

[alfie]

England have three batsmen in the side with multiple Test centuries : Root Stokes and Bairstow.

At the moment they are scratching to fill their other batting positions with anyone remotely competent. (Though Burns looks promising)

I am not changing any of those three at least until they've found a couple of other bats who show signs of being fit for purpose !

Might help if they played them all in their best spots too...

[GSC]

To an extent, I think England have sacrificed tests for a focus on ODIs.

Have to start with the mentality for me. As a group, they never look like they want to make it hard for the bowlers to get them out, bar Burns a few times.

[Soul Requiem]

Enjoying getting people to play FC cricket being the answer, like we haven't spent the past half decade or so trying to replace Strauss and Trott with the next best "FC batsman".

I don't know what the answer is, but suggesting just playing County cricket is, isn't. Because we've seen them come in and fail repeatedly

Setting up the season properly to give the batsmen a chance would be a start, stopping for two months to play some slogathon rubbish is not happening.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Enjoying getting people to play FC cricket being the answer, like we haven't spent the past half decade or so trying to replace Strauss and Trott with the next best "FC batsman".

I don't know what the answer is, but suggesting just playing County cricket is, isn't. Because we've seen them come in and fail repeatedly

Setting up the season properly to give the batsmen a chance would be a start, stopping for two months to play some slogathon rubbish is not happening.

Ultimately the sold out grounds you get at the T20 Blast pays the bills for all counties, not 150 members turning up on a Wednesday to watch some county cricket. Until that changes, or the ECB put some serious funding behind the red ball stuff, the county schedule won't change.

[Afro]

Got to play with the mentality to not get out first, and score runs second. Do the first and the second will come.

That mentality is the opposite for ODIs

[Afro]

Enjoying getting people to play FC cricket being the answer, like we haven't spent the past half decade or so trying to replace Strauss and Trott with the next best "FC batsman".

I don't know what the answer is, but suggesting just playing County cricket is, isn't. Because we've seen them come in and fail repeatedly

Setting up the season properly to give the batsmen a chance would be a start, stopping for two months to play some slogathon rubbish is not happening.

Ultimately the sold out grounds you get at the T20 Blast pays the bills for all counties, not 150 members turning up on a Wednesday to watch some county cricket. Until that changes, or the ECB put some serious funding behind the red ball stuff, the county schedule won't change.

I blame Surrey. The test side was fine when Yorkshire were winning titles, but as soon as Surrey win, the test team goes to pot.

They're like the Man Utd of cricket.

[Duty281]

Seems like an excellent batting wicket now the new-ball is getting soft. Commentators making a lot of how frequently wickets have fallen in this test but, really, Australia batted in extremely tough conditions yesterday; completely different to the ones they're playing in now. England's seamers don't have the same consistency as the Australian ones, either.

Australia should get at least 300 in this innings and set England something north of 400.

[alfie]

The issue of batsmen not playing county cricket is a little overstated. The World Cup and the moving around of the CC programme has affected things this season. Normally most players would have had a few hits for their counties leading up to the Tests.
I'm sure the contracts they are on allow the management to ensure they play what matches are deemed necessary if they wish to be selected.

I have no problem with players who are good in all formats playing in them all in the significant events. They do need to be rested and rotated when possible though.

The issue is more with adding in players who are "fringe" at best instead of seeking specialists for the long game. You will note that Australia have not fallen into that trap...

[Soul Requiem]

Enjoying getting people to play FC cricket being the answer, like we haven't spent the past half decade or so trying to replace Strauss and Trott with the next best "FC batsman".

I don't know what the answer is, but suggesting just playing County cricket is, isn't. Because we've seen them come in and fail repeatedly

Setting up the season properly to give the batsmen a chance would be a start, stopping for two months to play some slogathon rubbish is not happening.

Ultimately the sold out grounds you get at the T20 Blast pays the bills for all counties, not 150 members turning up on a Wednesday to watch some county cricket. Until that changes, or the ECB put some serious funding behind the red ball stuff, the county schedule won't change.

The cricket is broken, has to be said the braindead public paying to watch rubbish is also to blame.

[alfie]

Seems like an excellent batting wicket now the new-ball is getting soft. Commentators making a lot of how frequently wickets have fallen in this test but, really, Australia batted in extremely tough conditions yesterday; completely different to the ones they're playing in now. England's seamers don't have the same consistency as the Australian ones, either.

Australia should get at least 300 in this innings and set England something north of 400.

England bowlers understandably a bit down after being dragged back out less than thirty overs after they'd done the job in the first innings.

Leach has started well though

[Duty281]

That was a ball and a half! Not the best shot though, first up.

[alfie]

Mind you , seeing that ball spin out of the rough might be getting Lyon excited...

[alfie]

If Australia lose their last eight for 43 again now England will only be chasing 190

Not that I'd back them to get them !

[Duty281]

That's poor from Khawaja - playing far too many shots. 52/3. England not having to labour too hard for these wickets.

[Afro]

If Australia lose their last eight for 43 again now England will only be chasing 190

Not that I'd back them to get them !

I reckon they could have 3 innings and not get that

[alfie]

Woakes rewarded for some good bowling ...

Three down : now if Archer can come back and grab another quick six wickets Roy might have time to bat again tonight

[alfie]

Every time they show that match summary I wince...

The worst bit is they still list the two top scorers...and how ridiculous it looks to read "Denly 12 , Roy 9" as if this were an achievement !

Crazy old game though ; just Warner and Labuschagne so far have shown any sort of proper batting class. Only the fact that England's main bowlers are being overworked makes Australia likely to reach a "good" score. Not that it matters as they probably have a big enough lead already...

[alfie]

Looking further at the scorecard : in the first innings , only Warner , Labuschagne and Paine faced more than 20 balls. For England , only Burns and Denly.
This time round even Harris and Khawaja hung in for 38 balls...and hanging in is the key at this ground. Batting does get easier ...and you can score fast here once you are "in" .

But they all know all that. Just don't apply themselves enough.

73/3 and this is getting further away. Archer is just banging it in short now...I'd rest him to keep his energy for a dash at the tail...always supposing someone else can get these blokes out ! Leach should be back soon , surely ?

[Duty281]

These two applying themselves nicely. Always a pleasure to watch Travis Head bat, though he seldom kicks on to a high score - just the one test century for him so far in his career.

England look like a team who know the game is over and they have a 150 minute session coming up. The lead will be over 300 by stumps! I suppose the powers that be will like Australia to continue batting and ensure the game goes on as far as Sunday, otherwise there'll be a lot of lost revenue.

Feel a great deal of sympathy for England's bowlers over the past couple of years: their efforts with the ball are often completely undermined by the sheer ineptitude of the batsmen. So it's proved again today.

[alfie]

Yes the poor old bowlers have really suffered...

Still find it extraordinary how the English batting has fallen away in these recent years. Seems to have been a steady decline ever since the retirement of Andrew Strauss. We've seen Trott , Bell , Pietersen , Collingwood ...and eventually Cook , all depart : and really only Root has come in and settled. Apart from him the only serious run making has been from the all rounders Stokes , Moeen and Bairstow...and most of their scores from number six or seven. Top order bats virtually non existent.
I find it hard to believe there is nobody in the CC who can bat time against top class bowling ? I have been very critical of Smith for just trying to fill the holes with white ball specialists - and I think that approach must surely now be ditched for good ! But in truth they have tried a few players in the last few years with not much joy.... Vince , Westley , Malan ...Taylor I had hopes for , though he was cut off rather cruelly through no fault of his or anyone's ...Compton...the list goes on.

You have to start from where you are. So I would , for now , just try to settle Root at 4 , Stokes at 5 or 6 , Bairstow at 7 ...and have a proper search for players who can fill the other spots - Burns obviously one opener. Character counts as much as technique...they need to find some players who have it.

Unfortunately , if this match goes to its likely conclusion , there will be so much gloom and doom around the whole Test squad that a disastrous end to the summer will induce more panic selections and a further decline in fortunes...

Yes I'm feeling a bit depressed.

[Duty281]

Oh dear, now the simplest chance in creation shelled by Root. And Stokes did deserve a wicket.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

A dropped sitter - just what the bowlers need!

[compelling and rich]

root cant get anything right

[alfie]

Stokes bowling with pace and fire after tea...

Only for Root to drop a sitter at slip

When it rains , eh ? Won't do much for his confidence .

[Duty281]

Yes the poor old bowlers have really suffered...

Still find it extraordinary how the English batting has fallen away in these recent years. Seems to have been a steady decline ever since the retirement of Andrew Strauss.  We've seen Trott , Bell , Pietersen , Collingwood ...and eventually Cook , all depart : and really only Root has come in and settled.  Apart from him the only serious run making has been from the all rounders Stokes , Moeen and Bairstow...and most of their scores from number six or seven.  Top order bats virtually non existent.
I find it hard to believe there is nobody in the CC who can bat time against top class bowling ? I have been very critical of Smith for just trying to fill the holes with white ball specialists - and I think that approach must surely now be ditched for good ! But in truth they have tried a few players in the last few years with not much joy.... Vince , Westley , Malan ...Taylor I had hopes for , though he was cut off rather cruelly through no fault of his or anyone's ...Compton...the list goes on.

You have to start from where you are.  So I would , for now , just try to settle Root at 4 , Stokes at 5 or 6 , Bairstow at 7 ...and have a proper search for players who can fill the other spots - Burns obviously one opener. Character counts as much as technique...they need to find some players who have it.

Unfortunately , if this match goes to its likely conclusion , there will be so much gloom and doom around the whole Test squad that a disastrous end to the summer will induce more panic selections and a further decline in fortunes...

Yes I'm feeling a bit depressed.

It is rather concerning that, since the start of 2013, no specialist batsmen has debuted and gone on to carve out a long-term place in the starting XI. Probably a dozen names have come and gone, most of them openers. Would expect some new names to be tried out in the fifth test, if not the fourth.

[alfie]

Labuschagne rising his luck here. First he's dropped , then he narrowly avoids an lbw ...has been a battling innings of 14 from 54 balls...but he's continued to turn the screws on England.

Lead over 200. Getting towards the point of no return...

[alfie]

Surely they must try new bats next match , Duty ? Why wait for the fifth ? I am all for continuity where it is justified , but once you can see a lost cause why delay the inevitable ?
Not suggesting mass axing. But at least one , possibly two new bats , should come in.
Pope and Sibley seem logical.

Something for Stokes ! Head plays on...

[Duty281]

Ah, Travis Head doesn't kick on again. Stokes gets something on merit.

I can see Denly possibly being axed for the next test, but I reckon they'll be persisting with Roy until the end of the summer. Buttler might be dropped after an unspectacular three tests, I suppose.

[alfie]

Ah, Travis Head doesn't kick on again. Stokes gets something on merit.

I can see Denly possibly being axed for the next test, but I reckon they'll be persisting with Roy until the end of the summer. Buttler might be dropped after an unspectacular three tests, I suppose.

I cannot believe they would even consider picking Roy again unless he gets a second innings century . It isn't just he gets out , it is the daft way he does it...sets the tone for the innings. I still think Buttler can play a bit...but am worried about his mental state . The weird move to bat him at seven in this match suggests something is not right at present.

Pity Stokes didn't bowl a spell like this yesterday ! Though then England would have been batting last night...not that they could have made many less anyway

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