The Ashes - official thread

[KP_fan]

First topic message reminder :

Cummins was out no doubt about that, not sure what he was complaining about to be honest, a clear noise and deviation off the bat.

why were there 2 deviations?
one clearly before the ball had passed the bat and nothing seemed to be touching anything then...and the second when ball passes the bat.
Both deviations looking similar...put a question mark over the correct functioning of Snicko

that said 3rd umpire could have done nothing different than upholding the onfield ump

[Dolphin Ziggler]

If they’d just drop their captain, they’d have this series nailed

[alfie]

Must fancy Wade for some change bowling

Not surprised Khawaja was the fall guy. But I had wondered if Marsh might've come in too , for Wade. Suppose another bowler-friendly pitch would spare them the need for a fifth bowler.
Presume Starc in for Pattinson.

Hope compelling and rich gets a full days play. I will be flying your way on Friday so will need to find a bar in London that shows cricket to watch the fourth day...if the game isn't over by then

[GSC]

Woakes dropped for Overton

[Soul Requiem]

Woakes dropped for Overton

Roy, Denly and Buttler survive but Woakes gets dropped for an inferior bowler and batsmen, Ed Smith take a bow you've surpassed even yourself this time.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Woakes dropped for Overton

What was the reasoning behind this? Woakes is fit, Curran is fit...huh.

Actually mad how they're willing to make ballsy decisions with the bowlers, yet with the batting they're messing about with the chairs on the titanic. What nonsense

[robbo277]

Bizarre decision.

I guess they flogged Woakes for the back-to-back tests in the hope that Anderson would be back and they could rest him? He obviously didn't bowl much towards the end of those two and now he's out even with no Anderson.

Also bizarre they've gone with Overton ahead of Curran. Glancing at cricinfo, he's got a decent first class batting average (worse than Curran, but fine for an 8) although a slightly better bowling average (in FC cricket, worse in tests although over a small sample). The real puzzler is that it's a fourth right armer when you think the left arm variation might offer the captain a little bit more if the bowlers are evenly matched?

Wish him well though regardless of whether I agree with the decision though. His first test wicket was a certain Steve Smith, so maybe they think he's got the wood over him (although his next test Overton bowled 1-128 and Smith hit 239, so perhaps not).

[Afro]

I'm probably the most bias towards Overton on here, and even I'm surprised.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I would assume the point with Woakes being out of the XI is based on his fitness and/or state post-World Cup.

If that is the case, then he doesn't need to stay with the squad for now. He needs rest, so an extra day is valuable. If the decision is already that he isn't going to play, then why keep him around?

Edit: Had not read that as meaning he was in the XI! That's a bizarre choice, and I don't understand what they are doing with Curran. Is this really down to "he got Smith before"?!

Even more edit: Is it his height? Is he a better bat than Curran?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

What a complete waste of a summer for Curran - great way to develop a 21 year old promising talent, have him carry drinks all summer and then don't even play him when you want to rest the guy he is reserve for.

[Duty281]

Well that's a big surprise. Was very unimpressed with Overton when he last bowled for England, admittedly a while ago, and it also adds to the weakness of the batting. Overton v Curran? It's not even a contest.

Aussie big favourites for this one, discounting the weather. They'll be fielding their strongest test XI of the summer so far, with Labuschagne a great find, Smith coming back and Starc roaring in. England need to hope for some more heroics from Stokes/Archer/Broad and pray that Root can find his touch. A shame that Cook wasn't recalled.

[GSC]

OT a hard and fast pitch apparently so maybe they think Overton a better choice there than Curran.

Dont think Woakes has done enough in this series so far, plus would guess with back to back tests coming up they want to try and keep it fresh. Archer missed the first test and Broad didnt play in the WC

[Soul Requiem]

I don't think Curran is a consideration here, his bowling just isn't good enough as the third seamer and his complete lack of pace would make him a sitting duck against the Aussies so Overton instead of Woakes has to be fitness based.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

You can get 11/10 on Australia win, draw no bet on skybet

Seems a easy decision bet that

[alfie]

I am more confused than ever ...is Ed Smith picking this team - or Steve Smith ? Does he want to gift the Ashes to Australia ?

OK , Overton showed a bit at times in Australia ...he did get Smith out once ( but I think Moeen did once too so not sure that means much !) I don't dismiss him as rubbish : but I really think as Curran has a record of vital late order runs as well as some useful bowling spells , a lot more Test experience - and a left arm for variety - he wa a far more logical choice.
If it swings at OT they will surely regret it. If they really think they are going to bounce Australia out I'd imagine Archer and Stokes are much more likely to do the job anyway...
Overton has made some Test runs under pressure I guess. But not as many as Curran The whole thing is just weird

Maybe he has a minor injury ? Or they think Leach needs someone to drink cider with after the game...

[Afro]

Certainly if its a fast seamer, then Overton is the better option than Curran, although he just offers more of what we already have, just less effectively. Curran would have given a different option with the ball, so I can only assume its the expected pitch.

Curran the better batter, but not sure there's enough in it to influence the decision

[alfie]

Certainly if its a fast seamer, then Overton is the better option than Curran, although he just offers more of what we already have, just less effectively. Curran would have given a different option with the ball, so I can only assume its the expected pitch.

Curran the better batter, but not sure there's enough in it to influence the decision

Ah well ...hope you're right , Afro. You've been following Overton I guess : would you consider he is in a hot streak of form ? I wish him well anyway - seems a pretty competitive type so might relish challenging the Aussies - the doubt being whether he has the class to match the attitude...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

If they wanted more pace/bounce, then surely Jamie was a better option than Craig, in the Overton family?

[Dolphin Ziggler]

If he has a touch more pace and he has height, then I guess it's something?

To me, Curran is likely to get the most swing out of all our bowlers, with weather around and a different angle (let alone his batting and England 'form') then he was an obvious pick.

I don't know enough on Overton, but I'm underwhelmed. Current CC bowling average is pretty good though, 32 wickets at 21.34. Batting is under 20.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Jamie taken 26 @ 18.88 and batting average of 17.64, so about 2 less.

[JDizzle]

Jamie is a four man attack could get messy. He’s bowled well this year, but he’d worry me.

I don’t think it needs to be more complicated than Craig is a better bowler than Sam, as their FC records would imply. Whereas Sam in the squad gives you the option of altering the balance of the team and playing him at 7, as a fourth seamer. Curran’s bowling worries me long term in Tests, I don’t see what is special about it.

[LondonTiger]

I am more confused than ever ...is Ed Smith picking this team - or Steve Smith ?  Does he want to gift the Ashes to Australia ?

The selectors pick the squad - but do they choose the final XI - I thought that was down to skipper/coach.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Jamie is a four man attack could get messy. He’s bowled well this year, but he’d worry me.

I don’t think it needs to be more complicated than Craig is a better bowler than Sam, as their FC records would imply. Whereas Sam in the squad gives you the option of altering the balance of the team and playing him at 7, as a fourth seamer. Curran’s bowling worries me long term in Tests, I don’t see what is special about it.

We can say Curran’s bowling worries us, and overseas that is fair - but did he not prove last summer it is perfectly fine and effective in English conditions?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I am more confused than ever ...is Ed Smith picking this team - or Steve Smith ?  Does he want to gift the Ashes to Australia ?

The selectors pick the squad - but do they choose the final XI - I thought that was down to skipper/coach.

Judging by the noises Bayliss was making about Roy all summer “middle order player” comments etc would suggest to me the coach doesn’t have as big a say as we think...

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I suppose there is something to be said for the amount of injuries to fast bowlers. Woakes, Anderson, Stone and Gregory are all unfit and were, one assumes, ahead of him. So it's not like they've gleefully turned to him.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Jamie is a four man attack could get messy. He’s bowled well this year, but he’d worry me.

I don’t think it needs to be more complicated than Craig is a better bowler than Sam, as their FC records would imply. Whereas Sam in the squad gives you the option of altering the balance of the team and playing him at 7, as a fourth seamer. Curran’s bowling worries me long term in Tests, I don’t see what is special about it.

We can say Curran’s bowling worries us, and overseas that is fair - but did he not prove last summer it is perfectly fine and effective in English conditions?

I did see a stat saying he got more swing than Woakes, Broad and Anderson against Pakistan. So he's certainly going to do that job very effectively

[Soul Requiem]

Jamie is a four man attack could get messy. He’s bowled well this year, but he’d worry me.

I don’t think it needs to be more complicated than Craig is a better bowler than Sam, as their FC records would imply. Whereas Sam in the squad gives you the option of altering the balance of the team and playing him at 7, as a fourth seamer. Curran’s bowling worries me long term in Tests, I don’t see what is special about it.

We can say Curran’s bowling worries us, and overseas that is fair - but did he not prove last summer it is perfectly fine and effective in English conditions?

I did see a stat saying he got more swing than Woakes, Broad and Anderson against Pakistan. So he's certainly going to do that job very effectively

That's not a good thing though, if anything it goes to show that he has little control over what the ball does, Anderson is so good because he gets the ball to do just enough.

[JDizzle]

Jamie is a four man attack could get messy. He’s bowled well this year, but he’d worry me.

I don’t think it needs to be more complicated than Craig is a better bowler than Sam, as their FC records would imply. Whereas Sam in the squad gives you the option of altering the balance of the team and playing him at 7, as a fourth seamer. Curran’s bowling worries me long term in Tests, I don’t see what is special about it.

We can say Curran’s bowling worries us, and overseas that is fair - but did he not prove last summer it is perfectly fine and effective in English conditions?

Yeah, I think fine was the operative word really. If you think Overton is better, then pick him - Curran isn’t a nailed down pick. I don’t think you can get away with him as the third option unless it is real swinging conditions.

[Afro]

If they wanted more pace/bounce, then surely Jamie was a better option than Craig, in the Overton family?

I think that’s fair comment. Not a lot between them and Craig seems to be higher in the pecking order, but Jamie’s figures this year are better.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Jamie is a four man attack could get messy. He’s bowled well this year, but he’d worry me.

I don’t think it needs to be more complicated than Craig is a better bowler than Sam, as their FC records would imply. Whereas Sam in the squad gives you the option of altering the balance of the team and playing him at 7, as a fourth seamer. Curran’s bowling worries me long term in Tests, I don’t see what is special about it.

We can say Curran’s bowling worries us, and overseas that is fair - but did he not prove last summer it is perfectly fine and effective in English conditions?

I did see a stat saying he got more swing than Woakes, Broad and Anderson against Pakistan. So he's certainly going to do that job very effectively

That's not a good thing though, if anything it goes to show that he has little control over what the ball does, Anderson is so good because he gets the ball to do just enough.

That's an assumption. If he was comfortably in control of it and bowls accurately with that swing, then it's not a bad thing. It's possibly why he goes into those wicket taking spins, because he can zone into those spells where he does too much with such control to get wickets.

[Soul Requiem]

It's not an assumption at all, it's based on watching cricket for years and on watching Curran himself bowl, if the ball swings too much you take the slip cordon out of the game as the batsmen won't get near it. The fact he swings the ball more than Woakes and Anderson tells the whole story really Dolph.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

It's not an assumption at all, it's based on watching cricket for years and on watching Curran himself bowl, if the ball swings too much you take the slip cordon out of the game as the batsmen won't get near it. The fact he swings the ball more than Woakes and Anderson tells the whole story really Dolph.

I too have watched cricket and watched him, and don't think he lacks control to be a test bowler. Surely the line matters? With a slightly better strike rate and avg in tests than Woakes, although poorer economy, he's clearly not a bowler who is doing too much with the ball to not take wickets. His figures are certainly fantastic in home tests, again better than Woakes (although on both points I should point out that the sample size makes it somewhat a bad comparison)

I would happily say that the swing in his bowling definitely doesn't tell the whole story, neither positively nor negatively. I would guess it's his pace, if it stays where it is, that will keep him from being a consistent pick.

[JDizzle]

It's not an assumption at all, it's based on watching cricket for years and on watching Curran himself bowl, if the ball swings too much you take the slip cordon out of the game as the batsmen won't get near it. The fact he swings the ball more than Woakes and Anderson tells the whole story really Dolph.

I too have watched cricket and watched him, and don't think he lacks control to be a test bowler. Surely the line matters? With a slightly better strike rate and avg in tests than Woakes, although poorer economy, he's clearly not a bowler who is doing too much with the ball to not take wickets. His figures are certainly fantastic in home tests, again better than Woakes (although on both points I should point out that the sample size makes it somewhat a bad comparison)

I would happily say that the swing in his bowling definitely doesn't tell the whole story, neither positively nor negatively. I would guess it's his pace, if it stays where it is, that will keep him from being a consistent pick.

I’m not too bothered how much he is swinging it. The things that worry me is how he kisses the pitch rather than hits it hard and the fact he is medium pace at Test level for now - Chris Woakes was both of these things when he first started his Test career, so he can definitely improve. He swings it pretty early though, which makes it easier to line up - whereas your Anderson’s (tough comparison I know) get it to go muchlater when the batsman can’t adjust.

[Soul Requiem]

It's not an assumption at all, it's based on watching cricket for years and on watching Curran himself bowl, if the ball swings too much you take the slip cordon out of the game as the batsmen won't get near it. The fact he swings the ball more than Woakes and Anderson tells the whole story really Dolph.

I too have watched cricket and watched him, and don't think he lacks control to be a test bowler. Surely the line matters? With a slightly better strike rate and avg in tests than Woakes, although poorer economy, he's clearly not a bowler who is doing too much with the ball to not take wickets. His figures are certainly fantastic in home tests, again better than Woakes (although on both points I should point out that the sample size makes it somewhat a bad comparison)

I would happily say that the swing in his bowling definitely doesn't tell the whole story, neither positively nor negatively. I would guess it's his pace, if it stays where it is, that will keep him from being a consistent pick.

Line matters yes but so too does length, for a bowler of his pace he bowls slightly too short and that has an affect of swing. Shami in the India series last year had the most movement through the air I believe but consistently bowled too short which negates it. Curran is a decent player but I don't see him as being better than that, Woakes is a better bowler and certainly is in England.

[GSC]

maybe it's a lack of Anderson, but dont think this ball has done that much through the air outside of Headingley day 1

[Dolphin Ziggler]

The bowlers, Broad in particular (I think) have been telling people since test one that this batch ain’t swinging.

[KP_fan]

Woakes is the best exponent of Swing after Anderson and technically good enuf to bat in top-5¨
Dropping him could mean he was carrying a niggle OR he's fallen out with team management.
That he was evidently underbowled could be for either of above reasons.
That they didn't bring Curran in as the replacement confirms lopsided thinking.

It's equally lopsided on the Aussie side who announce Mitch Marsh wasn't banging hard enuf to allow for dropping of Harris or Wade after a few games only
But they drop their regular performer for a sustained period i.e Khawaja only because there are too many lefthanders in the side

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Woakes is the best exponent of Swing after Anderson and technically good enuf to bat in top-5¨
Dropping him could mean he was carrying a niggle OR he's fallen out with team management.
That he was evidently underbowled could be for either of above reasons.
That they didn't bring Curran in as the replacement confirms lopsided thinking.

It's equally lopsided on the Aussie side who announce Mitch Marsh wasn't banging hard enuf to allow for dropping of Harris or Wade after a few games only
But they drop their regular performer for a sustained period i.e Khawaja only because there are too many lefthanders in the side

Certainly don't agree he's technically good enough to bat in the top 5, especially with how the Aussies have exposed his play to a bouncing ball.
Seems to be tiredness, whether that is physical, mental or both.
Yeah, would appear so, though one hopes it isn't down to Root not trusting him (although past evidence suggests no)
Depends, lopsided would suggest wrong whereas if they want to get bounce and use height, there's little to suggest using Curran.

I think they've easily made the right call
He is not performing well and has seemingly lost the credit he had in the bank

[GSC]

I think in hindsight, scheduling directly after the world cup probably wasnt the wisest choice

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I think in hindsight, scheduling directly after the world cup probably wasnt the wisest choice

I would also say that you need to be able to do this to be “great.” I doubt the Aussies would win a World Cup many years ago and then think they were done with achievement.

They should be more forgiving in the calendar, but they’re getting a lot of credit from people with mental exhaustion. Certainly intriguing to see how the Aussies have managed their seamers ck pared to England, who maybe can’t afford to let Broad rest and have seen Archer miss the first test.

[Gooseberry]

The impact of the world cup has been greater on England because of the pressur ethey put themselves under to win all those games toward the end, and at times putting themselves in difficult positions in them. The final in particular.

It really shows though that Stokes was at the heart of that, but after coming through his own self inflicted misery and pressure last year the world cup experience seems to have had a positive impact on him, he is a player who seems to thrive under intensity. Archer in a different way has just stepped up and taken an incredibly relaxed approach to everything thrown at him and enjoyed every minute of it.

When people talk about getting the right kind of characters in a dressing room I guess those two are excellent models. They can take this kind of relentless schedule.

[Afro]

I think in hindsight, scheduling directly after the world cup probably wasnt the wisest choice

Is a bit of fatigue all round post World Cup, which shouldn't really be a surprise, but does lead to the question, is it fair to judge Roy as a test player on this summer alone.

[Afro]

I think in hindsight, scheduling directly after the world cup probably wasnt the wisest choice

I would also say that you need to be able to do this to be “great.” I doubt the Aussies would win a World Cup many years ago and then think they were done with achievement.

They should be more forgiving in the calendar, but they’re getting a lot of credit from people with mental exhaustion. Certainly intriguing to see how the Aussies have managed their seamers ck pared to England, who maybe can’t afford to let Broad rest and have seen Archer miss the first test.

Didn't Australia and India both lose their next test series after winning the world cup

[VTR]

Have said it before, but we had a stupid amount of Ashes (5 series in 7 years), as we were told the schedule had to change to move them away from the World Cup. Obviously that was laughable as everyone knew it was a cash grab, and we can see that nothing has improved

[sirfredperry]

So toss coming up. Would you bat first?

Answer: In Australia's case - yes.

[GSC]

Australia having a bat

Starc in

[sirfredperry]

D'you think Root was relieved to have lost the toss? Far less pressure on the bowling side if the other lot have opted to bat rather than you've put 'em in.

[eirebilly]

Broad v Warner

[Soul Requiem]

One down and now the pivotal Labuschagne and Smith period to come.

[king_carlos]

Broad really seems to have that energy back in his run-up this summer. Terrific first over.

[Gooseberry]

Honestly think this is Broads bets series of his career. As they are saying on TMS there was a hint his place was not guaranteed for the series coming into it. Conditions and the lack of quality batsmen have helped the figures but he has bowled well with such consistency.

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