The Ashes - official thread

[KP_fan]

First topic message reminder :

Cummins was out no doubt about that, not sure what he was complaining about to be honest, a clear noise and deviation off the bat.

why were there 2 deviations?
one clearly before the ball had passed the bat and nothing seemed to be touching anything then...and the second when ball passes the bat.
Both deviations looking similar...put a question mark over the correct functioning of Snicko

that said 3rd umpire could have done nothing different than upholding the onfield ump

[LondonTiger]

I think in hindsight, scheduling directly after the world cup probably wasnt the wisest choice

I would also say that you need to be able to do this to be “great.” I doubt the Aussies would win a World Cup many years ago and then think they were done with achievement.

They should be more forgiving in the calendar, but they’re getting a lot of credit from people with mental exhaustion. Certainly intriguing to see how the Aussies have managed their seamers ck pared to England, who maybe can’t afford to let Broad rest and have seen Archer miss the first test.

Didn't Australia and India both lose their next test series after winning the world cup

In 2015 Australia won in WI 2-0 (3 months after winning WC) then lost the Ashes series.
In 2011 Similar for India won 1-0 in WI and lost 4-0 in England.

[eirebilly]

I find it amazing that the Aussies persevere with Warner. I said before that dropping Usman was the wrong approach and that I would have had him open ahead of Warner.

Not really complaining mind

[Soul Requiem]

Warner- 2, 8, 3, 5, 61, 0 avg 13.1
Khawaja- 13, 40, 36, 2, 8 & 23 avg 20.3

I don't think it matters which of them played really, neither has contributed anything of significance.

[eirebilly]

That 61 from Warner last test was very scratchy to say the least and bumped up his average.

Khawaja would have a better chance of seeing off the new ball.

[LondonTiger]

Archer is not bowling freely at the moment. Bit harsh on a keeper when balls like that are given as byes.

[alfie]

After that immediate Warner wicket it has all gone a bit flat. Archer is well down on pace and hasn't threatened at all. Broad has put a couple past the bat but generally Labuschagne has taken up where he left off...and so far Harris has looked OK.

Pitch looks good for batting. Australia will be happy to have won this toss. England need to liven up or Smith will be coming in with a score on the board and the edge off the attack...

[alfie]

Archer is not bowling freely at the moment. Bit harsh on a keeper when balls like that are given as byes.

Saved them a run , eh ? Should surely have been called wide. Actually were a few last match - on both sides - that might well have been called wide.

... Broad strikes ! Umpires call won't save Harris...

[Soul Requiem]

Good decision that by Dharmasena, I liked the fact he took his time before putting the finger up.

[alfie]

Mark Taylor not happy about that lbw...reckons he should have got away with that on day one.  Not sure about that argument. No one would scream if it had been given not out ; but equally , it looked a decent shout live and Dharmasena gave it after due consideration ...and was backed up by the technology.
Think you can always say there is an element of fortune in close lbw decisions ...indeed always has been.  But that was a fair decision.

The main pair are in together now. Wouldn't England love to nab one of these two quickly !

But they've both settled in ominously well...

[Duty281]

Nice start from England, but the main two are at the crease now and looking in control.

[Gooseberry]

Argument made on TMS regarding Warner by I think Vaughn is that Aus should have taken the approach England have with Roy and bumped him down the order. 
The problem they have is that their other top 3 options have done even worse than Englands. They have a choice of 4 players who should all be dropped, and so have put someone with an unpronounceable name in at 3 simply because hes not the worst batsman they have. But he is someone they didnt think was worth a place at all till Smith got injured. 

As it is the 3-4 combination seems to be working nicely with some slack bowling (after Broad) on a slow pitch.

[robbo277]

It's a good pitch and they batted first. Just need to make sure we keep bowling with control and take our chances when they come - which they will.

[It Must Be Love]

For what moronic reason do England keep dropping Sam Curran, who is one of their best bowlers and batsman, and won Man of the Series against India. Crazy decision.

[Soul Requiem]

For what moronic reason do England keep dropping Sam Curran, who is one of their best bowlers and batsman, and won Man of the Series against India. Crazy decision.

Because he's neither of those things.

[alfie]

Bowling apart from Broad has been pretty ordinary so far...in fact way too much leg side stuff.  Smith eats it for breakfast. Must be better control or the score runs away fast...

Ha ! As I type Smith so nearly out lbw...misses Stokes...good review...but only umpires call so survives.  He gets the luck that Harris needed...

It was Labuschagne , of course ...I'm getting them mixed up now as the new boy seems to have taken some of the mannerisms and much of the infallibility of the master ! I'd settle for either of them out before lunch but I can't see it...

[alfie]

For what moronic reason do England keep dropping Sam Curran, who is one of their best bowlers and batsman, and won Man of the Series against India. Crazy decision.

Because he's neither of those things.

Opinions will differ. But I'd have picked Curran rather than Overton any day. Hope Overton proves me wrong.

If he ever gets to bowl His spin teammate is on first...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

For what moronic reason do England keep dropping Sam Curran, who is one of their best bowlers and batsman, and won Man of the Series against India. Crazy decision.

Because he's neither of those things.

Opinions will differ.  But I'd have picked Curran rather than Overton any day.  Hope Overton proves me wrong.

If he ever gets to bowl    His spin teammate is on first...

So they've picked him as a 2nd change seamer...what on earth is going on

[sirfredperry]

Well, England may well not win the Ashes but one of the joys of the summer has been witnessing the constant failures of Warner...

[It Must Be Love]

For what moronic reason do England keep dropping Sam Curran, who is one of their best bowlers and batsman, and won Man of the Series against India. Crazy decision.

Because he's neither of those things.

His batting average is higher than all of the potential top 3: Roy, Burns, Denly.
His bowling is excellent and suited well to English conditions.

[alfie]

After a ragged first over , Leach has bowled rather well. Though Lyon might be pleased to contemplate bowling last on this...

Overton on. He got Smith once ...could lightning strike twice ?

[Duty281]

Seeing the turn Leach is already getting, coupled with the idea of Lyon bowling last and Australia on course for a decent total here, I'm already ready to give this one up!

[Soul Requiem]

For what moronic reason do England keep dropping Sam Curran, who is one of their best bowlers and batsman, and won Man of the Series against India. Crazy decision.

Because he's neither of those things.

His batting average is higher than all of the potential top 3: Roy, Burns, Denly.
His bowling is excellent and suited well to English conditions.

He's not batting in the top three so his average isn't that relevant, worth also noting he has zero centuries in all cricket, as for his bowling it's pretty average and Overton is the better bowler.

[It Must Be Love]

For what moronic reason do England keep dropping Sam Curran, who is one of their best bowlers and batsman, and won Man of the Series against India. Crazy decision.

Because he's neither of those things.

His batting average is higher than all of the potential top 3: Roy, Burns, Denly.
His bowling is excellent and suited well to English conditions.

He's not batting in the top three so his average isn't that relevant, worth also noting he has zero centuries in all cricket, as for his bowling it's pretty average and Overton is the better bowler.

Why does batting in the top 3 mean your average isn’t relevant? Also I’ve seen him succeed against the second new ball many times too, so you can’t just blame the new ball.
His bowling is far better than you describe, it is accurate and he swings it more than any other England bowler. I guess people are simply more obsessed with pace stats, and sacrifice accuracy for a slightly faster bowler.

[Gooseberry]

Boycotts really not happy about Woakes being dropped for Overton. It does seem to be very much Roots choice not to bowl him much and to select the team as it is.
Theres reasons why Overton might be a decent option, but why has Woakes fallen so far out of favour?

[Gooseberry]

For what moronic reason do England keep dropping Sam Curran, who is one of their best bowlers and batsman, and won Man of the Series against India. Crazy decision.

Because he's neither of those things.

His batting average is higher than all of the potential top 3: Roy, Burns, Denly.
His bowling is excellent and suited well to English conditions.

He's not batting in the top three so his average isn't that relevant, worth also noting he has zero centuries in all cricket, as for his bowling it's pretty average and Overton is the better bowler.

Why does batting in the top 3 mean your average isn’t relevant? Also I’ve seen him succeed against the second new ball many times too, so you can’t just blame the new ball.
His bowling is far better than you describe, it is accurate and he swings it more than any other England bowler. I guess people are simply more obsessed with pace stats, and sacrifice accuracy for a slightly faster bowler.

Curran is the poor mans Woakes, but its still a big surprise that Overtons go the nod over him. Root stated he fancied some extra height which Overton brings, and theres also a theory hes favoured as more of a holding stock bowler to allow the others to go all attack. That also fits to earlier comments that if you just keep bowling line and length at Smith he will edge one as often as anyone else. I dont know overton that well but if he can hold a consistent nagging line and length then fair enough.
But still I dont get why Woakes has been dropped. His record at home and his record as an opener with Broad is simply absurd in both disciplines. He hasnt had the best of it in the last couple of matches but was already being underbowled before that.

[Soul Requiem]

Of course batting position matters, I think i've seen Curran score runs against the second new ball just once so hardly many times, if you put any of those guys in at 8 and there average would rocket. I can't quite believe i'm having to explain the difference facing the new ball at the start of an innings can have.

Lets be honest here Currans bowling isn't anything to write home about and being able to swing the ball more than someone else is not a good thing. I will ask how you think he'll take wickets with such extravagant swing?

[alfie]

I damned if I know what Woakes has done wrong. Yeah a poor spell at Headingley...but he's been criminally underbowled , and deprived of much sight of a new ball since Archer arrived.
Archer is a talent for sure ...but honestly I think Woakes is probably more dangerous with the new ball and Jofra would be as effective or more if he came on after ten...especially if Australia were 25/2 with Smith just come in...

Overton bowling OK but I think he's in for a lot of hard work here today...this was a good toss to win.

[alfie]

Australia's session. 98/2 at a good rate. Early wickets were pretty much as expected ...these two teams are almost guaranteed to be 30/2 every time anyway.
These two bats look pretty well settled and unless a wicket falls quickly after lunch I can see the tourists taking an early grip on this game.
Labuschagne seems to have a similar power of invincibility against England to that of Smith ! I quite liked what I saw of him in Australia and UAE but didn't think he was this good. It's a worry for England going forward...

[eirebilly]

Woakes is easily the better bowler than Curran but Curran has that ability to be a partnership breaker. If Woakes was not to play then I feel Curran was the next best option. I do like Overton, he is a steady grafter but he will not get you a lot of wickets.

[JDizzle]

Woakes is easily the better bowler than Curran but Curran has that ability to be a partnership breaker. If Woakes was not to play then I feel Curran was the next best option. I do like Overton, he is a steady grafter but he will not get you a lot of wickets.

Tough to pick someone purely as a partnership breaker who might not offer control when you only play three specialist seamers.

[eirebilly]

Maybe I was not clear enough. Curran does get wickets but he also has that partnership breaking ability.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

What lack of control is Curran bringing? His average doesn’t suggest that. His wicket taking in English tests certainly doesn’t make him seem a waste of time. Man of the series against India but he’s just some plodder?

His average at 8 would have been a massive plus, to deny this is to be wildly obstinate.

[It Must Be Love]

Of course batting position matters, I think i've seen Curran score runs against the second new ball just once so hardly many times, if you put any of those guys in at 8 and there average would rocket. I can't quite believe i'm having to explain the difference facing the new ball at the start of an innings can have.

Lets be honest here Currans bowling isn't anything to write home about and being able to swing the ball more than someone else is not a good thing. I will ask how you think he'll take wickets with such extravagant swing?

I'm not arguing he's a better batsman than the top 3, but the fact he has a better average shows he's definitely good enough to get in the team.

Why on earth would they pick Overton over him?
Curran did very well in the India series, I believe he had the better average than all the batsman, and was got out Kohli a few times too.
If not for him England may not have won that series, the 4-1 win would have been turned into a 3-2 loss. Dropping him from the team could well cost England the Ashes.

[alfie]

For some reason a lot of people seem to be a bit down on Curran. I think the perception that he just isn't fast enough to be effective in Tests is a big factor. Which is odd because his record in home Tests says this simply isn't true...
OK he might well struggle in Australia - or India. (As a lot of England's bowlers do anyway !). But this is being played in Manchester so not sure how relevant that is...

He might not enjoy this pitch , as it happens. But I don't think he should be dismissed as easily as a lot of folk seem to think.

[JDizzle]

What lack of control is Curran bringing? His average doesn’t suggest that. His wicket taking in English tests certainly doesn’t make him seem a waste of time. Man of the series against India but he’s just some plodder?

His average at 8 would have been a massive plus, to deny this is to be wildly obstinate.

No-one said he was a plodder. But his economy is pretty high, especially given he has played the majority of his Tests in favourable conditions - more favourable than have been seen this series anyway. His FC economy is also 3.40, so a lot higher than your Broad/Jofra/Woakes and even Overton. Asking a lot of him to be a reliable third seamer, unless you want to turn Jofra into your workhorse bowler.

His batting is better than Overton’s (until Overton proves otherwise against Test bowling), but the bowling has to be the deciding factor.

[Soul Requiem]

You definitely pick your third seamer on his batting ability, Overton has been consistently outbowling him this year in FC cricket and Curran got Kohli out once. You are massively over rating him based on performances in a small sample.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

HH has absolutely cast him aside as some sort of part-timer, making arguments based on cutting comments out and ignoring the rest of it. He’s being talked down like a sieve holding water. Conditions certainly look like he’d be useful, and very importantly he has history in this England setup of doing very well.

Considering Overton came in after Stokes and Leach, I don’t think he’s quite fulfilling the role people are saying Curran couldn’t.

Overton may very well come in and prove the selection a smart move, but I wouldn’t say I’m expecting much. Is he a better test bowler? Is he a particularly good change from what has come before him in that attack? It looks to me like another hunch call, and I don’t trust their hunches at all

[It Must Be Love]

A seam bowling attack of Archer Broad Curran Stokes is great. It has good variety too, Archer quicker than Broad and Stokes, who are in turn quicker than Curran who can swing the ball a lot.

Also means England have a deep batting line up, which proved crucial in their series against India last year.

[Soul Requiem]

This will be my last comment on it but what advantage is there to swinging the ball 'a lot' especially when the movement this series has largely been off the pitch?

[eirebilly]

Not looking promising that we will see any more cricket today...

[JDizzle]

HH has absolutely cast him aside as some sort of part-timer, making arguments based on cutting comments out and ignoring the rest of it. He’s being talked down like a sieve holding water. Conditions certainly look like he’d be useful, and very importantly he has history in this England setup of doing very well.

Considering Overton came in after Stokes and Leach, I don’t think he’s quite fulfilling the role people are saying Curran couldn’t.

Overton may very well come in and prove the selection a smart move, but I wouldn’t say I’m expecting much. Is he a better test bowler? Is he a particularly good change from what has come before him in that attack? It looks to me like another hunch call, and I don’t trust their hunches at all

That’s something to take up with the England captain, who has made some bizarre calls this series. Don’t mind giving Leach an early bowl, but Stokes on before him is odd.

I think Coverton is a better Test bowler than Curran, albeit based on not much evidence from the Somerset lad. But his FC record is superior to Curran’s and if they think COverton is a better bowler than Curran, the different angle shouldn’t come into it much - just pick the better bowler.

[Gooseberry]

What lack of control is Curran bringing? His average doesn’t suggest that. His wicket taking in English tests certainly doesn’t make him seem a waste of time. Man of the series against India but he’s just some plodder?

His average at 8 would have been a massive plus, to deny this is to be wildly obstinate.

No-one said he was a plodder. But his economy is pretty high, especially given he has played the majority of his Tests in favourable conditions - more favourable than have been seen this series anyway. His FC economy is also 3.40, so a lot higher than your Broad/Jofra/Woakes and even Overton. Asking a lot of him to be a reliable third seamer, unless you want to turn Jofra into your workhorse bowler.

His batting is better than Overton’s (until Overton proves otherwise against Test bowling), but the bowling has to be the deciding factor.

I was just looking back at the scorecards from the India series and he did seem to be leaking runs when taking wickets. 
Another thing to note is that he was used very sparingly, often as the fourth seamer and fifth bowler (fourth test he got 4 overs in the second innings, the other 3 seamers between 10 and 12 each). Essentially what Woakes has become, a spare part and not providing that workhorse option.  

I still feel Overton is a very left field pick. And the tail is an issue, not as big a one as the top 6, but its a luxury England may regret not having. 
And if it were a straight choice between Woakes and Curran I'd go Woakes every time. Second test of that India series (the only one they played together) Woakes scored 137 n/o and took 43/4. Curran 40 and 53/1. For all that Currans heroics got the plaudits Woakes hands down won that test , and could easily have done what Sam did and more in the later games. Currans batting prowess does seem massively overated too, hes still not got a first class century, Woakes has 10. 

Taking the other side though Boycott was rightly asking why do England want someone to hold down an end, shouldnt they be looking for wickets? TBH Overton doesnt look like hes going to do either in what hes bowled so far. 

Just an odd pick. If Woakes did have an injury issue surely this wouldve been openly talked about by now?

[Gooseberry]

HH has absolutely cast him aside as some sort of part-timer, making arguments based on cutting comments out and ignoring the rest of it. He’s being talked down like a sieve holding water. Conditions certainly look like he’d be useful, and very importantly he has history in this England setup of doing very well.

Considering Overton came in after Stokes and Leach, I don’t think he’s quite fulfilling the role people are saying Curran couldn’t.

Overton may very well come in and prove the selection a smart move, but I wouldn’t say I’m expecting much. Is he a better test bowler? Is he a particularly good change from what has come before him in that attack? It looks to me like another hunch call, and I don’t trust their hunches at all

Fair comments

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I think Woakes is a better bowler than both, anyway, but will accept that a rest probably won’t do him harm here and he should come in next test.

Worth pointing out that CC stats and performances should be remembered as misleading in both fields, if we’re at a point where they get pushed aside for batting.

I’m surprised by the whole thing, especially as they clearly don’t rate him that highly as he is clearly behind all selected bowlers, plus Woakes, Stone, Gregory (Jimmy too, obviously). I’m surprised they didn’t go with what they know and the man they’ve had around the camp, and also for those bonus runs. Then again, all those are out, and someone has to play, so you just go for who’s next. That it isn’t Curran is a surprise to everyone

[Duty281]

Not looking promising that we will see any more cricket today...

If only the ECB had some foreknowledge that cricket in September in England generally isn't a good idea!

[JDizzle]

A fit Woakes, definitely. But something has been off with him in the last few Tests. Hopefully he is back up and running for the Oval.

And it’s all about seeing if your eyes back up what the stats tell you. Curran has a better FC batting average and the fact that I’ve seen he has shown he can play world class bowling like Bumrah, Shami etc. tells me he is a better batsman than Coverton. Craig has the better FC bowling record and just watching him bowl I think he has the tools to trouble the Aussies more and balance the attack better than than Curran - now he has to prove it.

Gregory is more the Curran mould I think - better suited to batting 7 and a fourth seamer role, but certainly the others were above Craig in the pecking order as bowlers.

[Gooseberry]

If he is injured fair enough, but out theres been absolutely no indication from the England camp or the player himself that that is the case. It seems very odd to ditch Sir Chris and not describe it as a rest or rotation if it infact wasn't a resounding kicking and lack of faith in his ability to play cricket as well as Overton (a mere serf). 
If he has played four tests carrying an injury then that again says a lot about Englands selection policy and player management. 

Anderson, Stone, Wood, Woakes and Archer injured for some or all of the series and we have only just started the fourth test. This also highlights just how far down the pecking order Overton was until a few days ago. 

I dont deny SCW probably needs a rest sooner or later, but they've found a very strange way to go about it.

[LondonTiger]

Roly Turban Jones would also have been in the mix but for a series of injuries.

Restart at 4pm - looking at the warmups, Archer really looks like he would rather be somewhere warmer.

[Soul Requiem]

Why when they're restarting at 4pm, the time the scheduled tea break would have finished have they rearranged it to 5.30?

[JDizzle]

Woakes has been managing a persistent knee injury for months, so that could come into it somewhat.

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