The Ashes - official thread

[KP_fan]

First topic message reminder :

Cummins was out no doubt about that, not sure what he was complaining about to be honest, a clear noise and deviation off the bat.

why were there 2 deviations?
one clearly before the ball had passed the bat and nothing seemed to be touching anything then...and the second when ball passes the bat.
Both deviations looking similar...put a question mark over the correct functioning of Snicko

that said 3rd umpire could have done nothing different than upholding the onfield ump

[LondonTiger]

And off they go

[LondonTiger]

Why when they're restarting at 4pm, the time the scheduled tea break would have finished have they rearranged it to 5.30?

Because the scheduled end of play had moved to 19:30.

[Duty281]

Four half centuries out of four for Labuschagne now in the series - hasn't converted any of the previous three into a ton, though. Today might be the day, if the rain holds off. He looks more invincible than Smith at times.

[LondonTiger]

And off they go

And back on.

[LondonTiger]

Four half centuries out of four for Labuschagne now in the series - hasn't converted any of the previous three into a ton, though. Today might be the day, if the rain holds off. He looks more invincible than Smith at times.

Playing for Glamorgan has really helped him prepare for this. How many first class matches had our batters played this season before the series started?

[Soul Requiem]

Why when they're restarting at 4pm, the time the scheduled tea break would have finished have they rearranged it to 5.30?

Because the scheduled end of play had moved to 19:30.

With intermittent rain and dark clouds about, it doesn't make a lot of sense, play until 6.30 would ensure the most play possible

[LondonTiger]

Why when they're restarting at 4pm, the time the scheduled tea break would have finished have they rearranged it to 5.30?

Because the scheduled end of play had moved to 19:30.

With intermittent rain and dark clouds about, it doesn't make a lot of sense, play until 6.30 would ensure the most play possible

Well technically play till 19:30 with a 20 minute break is 40 minutes more playing time. Now if the rain arrives and sends them off before 18:50 you are correct. However the umpires have to abide by the rules set down in the playing conditions. this allows for 30 minutes extra for slow over rates and add up to an hour for play lost in the day. Sessions are not allowed to be longer than 3 hours.

[Duty281]

Four half centuries out of four for Labuschagne now in the series - hasn't converted any of the previous three into a ton, though. Today might be the day, if the rain holds off. He looks more invincible than Smith at times.

Playing for Glamorgan has really helped him prepare for this. How many first class matches had our batters played this season before the series started?

Not enough!

[Soul Requiem]

Why when they're restarting at 4pm, the time the scheduled tea break would have finished have they rearranged it to 5.30?

Because the scheduled end of play had moved to 19:30.

With intermittent rain and dark clouds about, it doesn't make a lot of sense, play until 6.30 would ensure the most play possible

Well technically play till 19:30 with a 20 minute break is 40 minutes more playing time. Now if the rain arrives and sends them off before 18:50 you are correct. However the umpires have to abide by the rules set down in the playing conditions. this allows for 30 minutes extra for slow over rates and add up to an hour for play lost in the day. Sessions are not allowed to be longer than 3 hours.

I'd rather they just used some common sense in circumstances like these, play won't go on until 7.30, it'll be too dark well before then.

[LondonTiger]

They can use floodlights.

I am not disagreeing with you but common sense is not allowed in these circumstances. Same with Limited overs games. How often do we know rain will be coming that will end play, yet we see one side face all their overs then it rains. And being England sometimes the rain misses.

In the end rules is rules.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

This feels ominous, 2-1 Australia incoming.

[VTR]

This isn't the kind of position that England win from too often. Very flat after the high of Headingley

[Duty281]

It is a similar position to Headingley at the moment - rain-interrupted first day, Aussies 130/2. They collapsed in the last test, albeit they didn't have Smith then.

Overton looks very ineffectual so far, though he did just have a decent shout turned down.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Always liked Overton...

[Gooseberry]

Four half centuries out of four for Labuschagne now in the series - hasn't converted any of the previous three into a ton, though. Today might be the day, if the rain holds off. He looks more invincible than Smith at times.

Playing for Glamorgan has really helped him prepare for this. How many first class matches had our batters played this season before the series started?

Not enough!

Depends if you count Ireland test as one or not.

This season county games:

Burns 8
Denly 6
Root 2

Labuschange 10


It doesnt seem to have hurt Labuschange but D2 isnt good enough to produce English Qualfied test batsmen so why can half a season for an Aussie benchwarmer suddenly turn him into a world class 3? (He types as Labuschnge gets out)

[Gooseberry]

To be fair that wicket does match the theory for selecting Overton. Using his height on the perfect length to hit the top of off stump with a bit of seam movement.

[Soul Requiem]

To be fair that wicket does match the theory for selecting Overton. Using his height on the perfect length to hit the top of off stump with a bit of seam movement.

Finally a picture to put with the theory.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I think most discussed that the theory had credence. Interesting to note how they talked of the importance of the swing a bit too

‘Twas a corker, that. Labuschagne seems the type to want to examine everything, but he may just have to accept that that was excellent

[Soul Requiem]

Not extravagant swing though which is the point.

[Gooseberry]

It seamed rather than swung

On the flip side Overton has bowled too much junk and not bought that consistent nagging line and length. The conditions maybe havent helped, wet ball and wind all over the place but still have to question the selection a bit.

[Gooseberry]

Vaughn echoing the above ...England as a unit just havent bowled with consistency on line and length. He seems to believe that Overton was picked to exploit bounce that in previous years would have been in Headingly pitches but just isnt there any more.

Also the one thing we havent talked about ...why hasnt Archer turned up today? Hes way down on pace. It seems odd.

[Soul Requiem]

It swung in very marginally before pitching which helped the ball seam in or so Holding believed anyway.

[Duty281]

Steve Smith averaging 141 in his last 12 innings against England.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Would be mighty handy if this rain sets in and we can get to The Oval at 1-1 - do not fancy batting last on this vs Lyon...

[guildfordbat]

For some reason a lot of people seem to be a bit down on Curran.  I think the perception that he just isn't fast enough to be effective in Tests is a big factor.  Which is odd because his record in home Tests says this simply isn't true...
OK he might well struggle in Australia - or India. (As a lot of England's bowlers do anyway !). But this is being played in Manchester so not sure how relevant that is...

He might not enjoy this pitch , as it happens. But I don't think he should be dismissed as easily as a lot of folk seem to think.

Hi Alfie and all - apologies for being late to the party yet again but been out a lot of the day and so saw little play - even less than you guys!

Anyway, on the Overton in front of Curran call, I thought this was an interesting take by Chris Tremlett in today's City A.M. (surprisingly good cricket coverage for a freebie London paper);
''I feel sorry for Curran, who has been in the squad looking like the next in line only to miss out. But there is reasoning behind Overton's promotion.
England will have assessed the pitch in Manchester and picked a bowler to suit the conditions. I've bowled a fair bit at Old Trafford and it tends to have a harder, greener surface which provides decent carry and suits taller bowlers. Overton is 6 ft 5 in and tends to get his wickets through bounce and seam movement rather than swing. He's not quick, but offers a different trajectory to what England have.
Curran may be a better all-round cricketer, but at the moment I think Overton is a better bowler.''

I was never very taken with Tremlett when he was at Surrey - a regular sicknote who seemed more interested in his Test career than his county - but he often provides a considered opinion. I guess there wasn't enough play today to make much of a judgement about Overton. I did see and like the delivery that got Labuschagne although picked up Atherton's post match comment that his bowling had been inconsistent - as supported by him being a bit expensive.

As for Curran and following up an earlier post from Olly, he relects an issue I have with central contracts and the cutting back of County Championship matches - a player, particularly a young player, good enough to get in the Test squad but not the Test team can find himself in a situation where he is playing insufficient cricket to fully develop his potential and ever win a deserved Test place. I recently came across this quote from Keith Fletcher (ex Essex and England captain) which remains as true today today as when he first uttered it around fifty years ago: ''You're up and coming until you are over the hill.''

[Gooseberry]

Guildford the issue is they picked him for conditions that don't exist. There isn't a hard bouncy sheen on the surface, Vaughn pointed this out before play had started. Livid that they hadn't read the conditions and gone on outdated cliches of how the ground plays

We've ended up with a good country bowler asked to jump into a difficult test on a flat wicket in horrendous conditions completely out of the blue.

He did get his wicket with a genuine ball but largely suffered from being very inconsistent and making life easy for Aus.

I feel for both him and Curran in different ways. But the talk should be about where Archers pace has gone.

[Afro]

where Archers pace has gone.

Its in all the extra jumpers he was wearing

[guildfordbat]

Goose, much as I would like to argue - and I know you would even more - I saw / heard very little of the play yesterday and none of the pre-match build up. The second and one of the few deliveries that I saw was Labuschagne's dismissal by Overton although I accept that wasn't representative of his day's performance. Fair enough for once to Vaughn that he called things correctly before the start at the ground. I would guess that Tremlett was dictating his piece from his Hampshire home. At least Tremlett gave his view and reasoning up front - and that's where every selection has to be made - whilst I suspect some pundits are now commentating with hindsight.

I didn't see Archer bowling at all so can't comment on his missing pace. Whether or not it's all down to my switching to him in Joey's comp, it sounds a concern.

[Pal Joey]

Most of us are in the same boat, Guildford.  
I had to switch over to Parliament at times - during the rain breaks - when Archer started doing his best penguin impersonation.

Perhaps he got a dressing down (or questions asked) last night and will come out firing today. Although he did look miserable out there yesterday.
The worry is a risk of injury if he tries to push it too much (if not properly warmed up) so I suspect he will try and ease into it again this morning.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I see Vaughan has come out with a tactical masterpiece today. He’s told Archer he needs to bowl faster.

Solved it again, Michael

[jimbohammers]

I assume we're starting at 10.30am today to make up for lost time yesterday?

[Gooseberry]

Goose, much as I would like to argue - and I know you would even more - I saw / heard very little of the play yesterday and none of the pre-match build up. The second and one of the few deliveries that I saw was Labuschagne's dismissal by Overton although I accept that wasn't representative of his day's performance. Fair enough for once to Vaughn that he called things correctly before the start at the ground. I would guess that Tremlett was dictating his piece from his Hampshire home. At least Tremlett gave his view and reasoning up front - and that's where every selection has to be made - whilst I suspect some pundits are now commentating with hindsight.

I didn't see Archer bowling at all so can't comment on his missing pace. Whether or not it's all down to my switching to him in Joey's comp, it sounds a concern.

Yep and that was part of what Vaughn was driving at. England appeared to have made the Overton selection from an armchair without actually bothering to go to the ground and check how the pitches looked this season. Maybe a dig about how little time Roots spent with Yorkshire as to boot? 

This test wont be won or lost on that selection alone, its become the talking point because it was so left field. England have been throw a bit of a duffer with the fast bowlers injuries stacking up so quickly and the Steve Smith factor seems to have them in a blind panic (honestly who can blame them? The guy is unreal) so you can understand reaching for plan Z. But it does look like more of the muddled thinking thats typified England in the Bayliss era. It does make me wonder what the pan would have been if Jimmy were fit, ask Broad to bang it in and try and use his height to exploit the bounce?  And I'm not even advocating that Curran would have done a much better job than Overton with the ball bowling his medium pace, as noted in the days discussions Overtons contribution is quite similar to the sort that Curran made last summer although he got a few more overs.

Looking at his stats he held his line pretty well, just erring onto the stumps too often and bowling too short on the whole. The frustration is that if he had the discipline to keep hitting the same spot then the ball was doing enough to have made more breakthroughs, the one that did get the wicket was absolutely perfect but all too rare. And that was true of all the bowlers. Stokes was all over the place trying to find magic deliveries (which nearly came off a couple of times toward the end but instead gifted Head easy runs),  and despite a good opening spell Broad just wasn't quite up to the standards hes set through the series. 

Archer was bowling around 84mph most of the day. The cold and wind no doubt affected him as it did the others, but given how much hype there had been about him vs Smiths neckguard it was a real squib. Questions form the commentary box about his attitude, you could almost feel the producers finger hovering over the mute button incase someone said what they were really thinking. in fairness to him he did maintain better economy than the other bowlers and it could be argued that he was smart (and possibly following instruction) to sacrifice his pace to keep some control. But England needed wickets and 3 short of a length balls in the mid 80s at Smith in one over was not likely to bring that. He was able to get some pretty extravagent movement at times, but too much too short without any venom to make the most of that. 

The plan seemed to be bounce the ball all over the place and get Smith in a flap. Problem is they did this on a pitch with no bounce or pace on a windy day when the bowlers couldn't get a good rhythm. Maybe someone should have read the weather forecasts and looked at the pitch. Its almost like Roots turning to the internet forums for advice on how to lead his side. 

[Gooseberry]

I assume we're starting at 10.30am today to make up for lost time yesterday?

 

[alfie]

I assume we're starting at 10.30am today to make up for lost time yesterday?

Don't they just say they will play later ? though they usually can't anyway because of the light.

Any better weather today ?

Was a good first day for Australia. Seem to be set up for a good (350 ?) score ; though I suppose the Real Archer might turn up and roll them over this morning...
If they do get 300 plus you'd think England will be needing an un-characteristic solid innings in response or we will all be praying for rain on Sunday

Didn't see Overton's wicket but I hear it was a great ball. His early spell was nothing to write home about - though that was true of all the bowlers to a point. Broad was excellent early on , Stokes had one good burst where he might easily have had Labuschagne , and Leach was OK...but they all bowled too much fodder that Smith and his clone just comfortably worked to leg....don't know who the Archer lookalike was ...

Why do England persist in trying to hit Smith's leg stump ? He will make 999 before they get one through...why not bore him out around fifth stump with a field to suit ? Might at least slow him up.

Leach will have work to do second innings , I think. Just hope the bats can get up to parity or near enough first.
OK , I'm getting ahead of myself...will just watch and see...

[Afro]

It can't have been easy to bowl consistent lines yesterday with that wind. That said, the wind would also have made batting more difficult.

Hopefully in more settled conditions today, they can bowl more consistently.

[Pal Joey]

Terrible conditions after that bright start.

I still remember them batting under floodlights in Leeds too. That was so tough to watch.
They did OK though considering those conditions are so alien to us here. It was like bloody Tierra del Fuego at times!

[Duty281]

Broad with yet another wicket in this series. Great plan this from England - don't worry about Smith, just get the other ten out!

[Soul Requiem]

Is it just me or is Dharmasena performing a lot better now he has Erasmus who is pretty spot on most of the time at the other end?

[Gooseberry]

Archers bowling faster but more junk...thank god for Broad. 

Smith though ...well over 90% control still. The guy has some serious voodoo over England.

[alfie]

Actually Smith has looked a bit shaky this morning...nearly edged a couple , offered a c & b to Archer off a full toss ! And a couple of other unconvincing shots.
But I suppose they've missed their chance now he's survived the first half dozen overs . Better knock the others over quickly then...

Broad excellent this morning. And Archer much better than yesterday so far. Need to make this spell count.

[compelling and rich]

still recovering from yesterday. September test match cricket is a terrible spectator sport. saw 20 overs then had to spend rets of the time in the bar. by the time it restarted could barely see what was going on

the wind was really strong yesterday, fairly hair raising getting to the top of the temporary stand held up by scaffolding in 40mph winds!

[alfie]

still recovering from yesterday. September test match cricket is a terrible spectator sport. saw 20 overs then had to spend rets of the time in the bar. by the time it restarted could barely see what was going on

the wind was really strong yesterday, fairly hair raising getting to the top of the temporary stand held up by scaffolding in 40mph winds!

Glad to hear you survived Wouldn't fancy that stand at all thanks...

Better bowling this morning - mainly Broad , Archer a mixed bag. Trouble is Stuart must be about done now and they've only taken one wicket... Unless Overton and Stokes can step up quickly this could run away fast. Long way to another new ball.

[compelling and rich]

still recovering from yesterday. September test match cricket is a terrible spectator sport. saw 20 overs then had to spend rets of the time in the bar. by the time it restarted could barely see what was going on

the wind was really strong yesterday, fairly hair raising getting to the top of the temporary stand held up by scaffolding in 40mph winds!

Glad to hear you survived   Wouldn't fancy that stand at all thanks...

Better bowling this morning - mainly Broad , Archer a mixed bag.  Trouble is Stuart must be about done now and they've only taken one wicket...  Unless Overton and Stokes can step up quickly this could run away fast. Long way to another new ball.

yeah I didn't either, not the best with heights funny watching everyone's hats blow off when they came up

still too many easy runs at the moment

[alfie]

But no...it is Leach to take over. Change of attack...

Fair enough I guess. Truth is Root is unsure of his backup seamers. Would be so different with a fit Anderson : he could have started with Broad and we'd see Archer coming on after the opening burst ...sigh. What might have been

Wonder if we will ever see that attack now ?

[robbo277]

The rain's back. It's a long way to talk of saving England, but it will probably be a welcome break for now. It's a good pitch and Australia are batting well. England need some inspiration from somewhere - and it's looking like it may have to be Sir Benjamin Stokes again.

Absolute best case for England we're looking at 260 all out. Worst case around 400.

Regardless, the game relies on how England bat on this pitch. First innings Headingley and it's over. Second innings Headingley and we have a chance of keeping the series alive.

With the weather that's been about, if Australia get a lowish score from here, we'll need to bat for 4 sessions to get past them and put ourselves on the front foot. If Australia get a high score from here, we'll need to bat for 4 sessions to get parity with 8 sessions batted and a couple lost to weather. This will leave possibly just under 2 days in the contest, and Australia will be torn between going hard to set us something and batting to not lose first. We can then assess what's on at the start of the fourth.

Either way, England's first innings will be big, and the new look batting line-up really have to deliver for us.

[alfie]

The rain's back. It's a long way to talk of saving England, but it will probably be a welcome break for now. It's a good pitch and Australia are batting well. England need some inspiration from somewhere - and it's looking like it may have to be Sir Benjamin Stokes again.

Absolute best case for England we're looking at 260 all out. Worst case around 400.

Regardless, the game relies on how England bat on this pitch. First innings Headingley and it's over. Second innings Headingley and we have a chance of keeping the series alive.

With the weather that's been about, if Australia get a lowish score from here, we'll need to bat for 4 sessions to get past them and put ourselves on the front foot. If Australia get a high score from here, we'll need to bat for 4 sessions to get parity with 8 sessions batted and a couple lost to weather. This will leave possibly just under 2 days in the contest, and Australia will be torn between going hard to set us something and batting to not lose first. We can then assess what's on at the start of the fourth.

Either way, England's first innings will be big, and the new look batting line-up really have to deliver for us.

Wouldn't argue with any of that , robbo

Very important spell for Leach now , I think. If he can get one , might do damage...but if he gets hit you just know Root will have him off quickly ... and I fear a diet of right arm seam will see Australia heading for high 300 s...

[alfie]

And Leach delivers ! Wade chances his arm and gone...224/5

One end open ?

[robbo277]

And Leach delivers !  Wade chances his arm and gone...224/5

One end open ?

Possibly. The issue we have is how well Smith batted with the tail at Edgbaston. Fine we didn't have Archer who can scare the tail with pace and bounce, but still a job on to turn 224/5 into a sub-300 score.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Right, Paine is in, get the real bowlers on and speed this up

[GSC]

Think Smith might have a few words for Wade at lunch after that.

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