The Ashes - official thread

[KP_fan]

First topic message reminder :

Cummins was out no doubt about that, not sure what he was complaining about to be honest, a clear noise and deviation off the bat.

why were there 2 deviations?
one clearly before the ball had passed the bat and nothing seemed to be touching anything then...and the second when ball passes the bat.
Both deviations looking similar...put a question mark over the correct functioning of Snicko

that said 3rd umpire could have done nothing different than upholding the onfield ump

[Afro]

Overton gone. He's no Leach

[KP_fan]

I don't understand why test cricket needs to take a take a tea break in these circumstances and lose 5 overs in this situation instead of an addtional drinks break.
Hazelwood find the deserving edge without losing any time.

Root technically gets to bat at No. 4 and well past lunch time

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I don't want to watch this. I have no faith in them. Why am I watching it? I need more vodka

[guildfordbat]

Olly, Alfie and regulars - you know my thoughts as the nightwatchman trudges back to the hutch with the scoreboard showing 25/2 and a further fillip to the bowling side.

[Duty281]

I don't understand why test cricket needs to take a take a tea break in these circumstances

I think asking for a 6 hour session is a bit much!

[compelling and rich]

do think this has been the most docile pitch we have had all series, so hopefully we'll see a improvement from our batsman.

lyon will be the key on this pitch to me, especially to the left handers

[robbo277]

Can Woakes stay in the team if he's ineffective abroad?

Something to discuss later this year no doubt, but the coaches are more prepared to go horses for courses with bowlers so Woakes should tour at the very least, and then they can make a decision on what they need.

I know Woakes stats are bad and his reputation is justified, but Anderson also had a similar reputation earlier in his career (unsure if this was justified, or not), but he's definitely a good bowler overseas now, and he only got that way by regularly touring and experiencing the conditions.

Woakes bowls a lot as the change option as well, and getting a 12 over old duke's ball in England is quite different to getting a 12 over old kookaburra ball elsewhere. At least Anderson always got the new ball (whichever it was) and had a better chance of taking wickets.

If Anderson and Broad are both unavailable to tour, I'd have Woakes and Archer opening the bowling with someone like Wood as the change option. If one of them are available then you can either move Woakes at first change or drop him and keep two quicks.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Re: Woakes abroad, will depend where for me - definitely no in the sub continent, a maybe for Aus/NZ/WI, and I think he should be in for South Africa, where seam movement and swing is fairly similar to here (only have to look at the success someone like Philander has over there to show you don't need all pace).

I would imagine he will be given a break from the NZ tour though - after this summer's excursions.

[guildfordbat]

[quote="Good Golly I'm Olly"]Root is fine to continue, as Dolph points out working with a coach who actually has a clue about test cricket will probably help him and I'm not sure he's horrible anyways - not exactly his fault Roy dropped Paine and Leach overstepped when he got Smith out.

The only real alternatives in tests would be Broad imo. Really would not want to burden Stokes with it, he already has enough on his plate as it is, it'd feel a bit Flintoff-era to appoint him tbh[/quote]

Or for older posters, a bit Botham-era which was an absolute disaster as far as his captaincy went.

Yeah, Olly, I'm largely with you and Dolph here. Whilst Root has far from distinguished himself as a Test captain in this series, you certainly also have to look at the role and effectiveness of the coach as well as determining whether there is an alternative skipper who would actually improve the side.

I'm not convinced that there is currently such an alternative, either inside or outside the current side. Of the county captains, the canniest and most streetwise by a long way is Ryan ten Doeschate at Essex. Two obstacles there though - he's about to hang his boots up and he's not English qualified! In any case and in line with a post from Soul, the other ten players (whoever they are) in a current England Test team are unlikely to be so good as to allow a ''Brearley like figure'' (even if one could be found) to come in for his captaincy alone.

Another issue with central contracts (I'm not totally against them despite a different concern I posted about the other day but I do believe there are two sides to that coin) is that England Test players get little opportunity to practice captaincy skills in the relatively quiet backwaters of the county game and, if chosen to lead their country, have instead to learn almost immediately on the job. When I first started following cricket seriously in the early '70s, England were captained by Illingworth but regularly there were 3 or 4 established county captains (Boycott, Edrich, Cowdrey and Fletcher in particular and sometimes others) in his side whom he could call upon for advice. As it happened, Illy was very much his own man and often wouldn't want to but that's not my point!

[guildfordbat]

In line with Lloyd's comments on Sky, Burns doing a good job. So important though that he goes on - something which he still hasn't managed to do enough although he has turned the heat down on him.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Can Woakes stay in the team if he's ineffective abroad?

Something to discuss later this year no doubt, but the coaches are more prepared to go horses for courses with bowlers so Woakes should tour at the very least, and then they can make a decision on what they need.

I know Woakes stats are bad and his reputation is justified, but Anderson also had a similar reputation earlier in his career (unsure if this was justified, or not), but he's definitely a good bowler overseas now, and he only got that way by regularly touring and experiencing the conditions.

Woakes bowls a lot as the change option as well, and getting a 12 over old duke's ball in England is quite different to getting a 12 over old kookaburra ball elsewhere. At least Anderson always got the new ball (whichever it was) and had a better chance of taking wickets.

If Anderson and Broad are both unavailable to tour, I'd have Woakes and Archer opening the bowling with someone like Wood as the change option. If one of them are available then you can either move Woakes at first change or drop him and keep two quicks.

Agree with everything you've said, and Olly below you too. Woakes is an interesting one. If you gave me Stone (or another alternative pace bowler coming through), Archer and Woakes, I'd be happy enough for places like Australia. Although I'd take Anderson and Broad over Woakes (and probably Stone) but would love some more proper pace bowlers to exist.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Also, I'm fully behind, and have stated this often, the person earlier who said pick the best three openers in England and play them 1, 2, 3. Burns, Sibley, Crawley or whoever, but that's what I'd do. Every number three should be Trott-like, in my mind.

[LondonTiger]

Another issue with central contracts (I'm not totally against them despite a different concern I posted about the other day but I do believe there are two sides to that coin) is that England Test players get little opportunity to practice captaincy skills in the relatively quiet backwaters of the county game and, if chosen to lead their country, have instead to learn almost immediately on the job. When I first started following cricket seriously in the early '70s, England were captained by Illingworth but regularly there were 3 or 4 established county captains (Boycott, Edrich, Cowdrey and Fletcher in particular and sometimes others) in his side whom he could call upon for advice. As it happened, Illy was very much his own man and often wouldn't want to but that's not my point!

Was listening to a radio interview with, I think Mark Wood (missed the start so player was not named). He spoke about Stokes leadership qualities and that he hopes to captain Durham one day when he has retired from England duties

[Soul Requiem]

Burns doing alright here, nailed down his spot for now.

[Gooseberry]

Can Woakes stay in the team if he's ineffective abroad?

Something to discuss later this year no doubt, but the coaches are more prepared to go horses for courses with bowlers so Woakes should tour at the very least, and then they can make a decision on what they need.

I know Woakes stats are bad and his reputation is justified, but Anderson also had a similar reputation earlier in his career (unsure if this was justified, or not), but he's definitely a good bowler overseas now, and he only got that way by regularly touring and experiencing the conditions.

Woakes bowls a lot as the change option as well, and getting a 12 over old duke's ball in England is quite different to getting a 12 over old kookaburra ball elsewhere. At least Anderson always got the new ball (whichever it was) and had a better chance of taking wickets.

If Anderson and Broad are both unavailable to tour, I'd have Woakes and Archer opening the bowling with someone like Wood as the change option. If one of them are available then you can either move Woakes at first change or drop him and keep two quicks.

Agree with everything you've said, and Olly below you too. Woakes is an interesting one. If you gave me Stone (or another alternative pace bowler coming through), Archer and Woakes, I'd be happy enough for places like Australia. Although I'd take Anderson and Broad over Woakes (and probably Stone) but would love some more proper pace bowlers to exist.

Worth noting that Broad is rubbish abroad too. Someone has to bowl.

In SA and NZ theres no reason Woakes shouldnt be effective. If it were the UAE, India or Aus I could see more of an argument against him.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Burns doing alright here, nailed down his spot for now.

Compare his scores to what the openers on both sides are doing this series and he's practically the Steve Smith of opening the batting!

Playing very nicely here again. Chance to really go big

[Gooseberry]

Burns doing alright here, nailed down his spot for now.

Which says a lot about expectation levels on an england batsman in any position now. But he is the outstanding opener of this series no question.

[Gooseberry]

In line with Lloyd's comments on Sky, Burns doing a good job. So important though that he goes on - something which he still hasn't managed to do enough although he has turned the heat down on him.

He did score 133 in the first test, thats kinda far enough to avoid cricticism off just 10 tests


19 off 8 starc deliveries...wonder why he wasnt getting in the side

[Gooseberry]

Burns averaging over 30 now

Starc leaking runs

England over 100

Ashes are coming home

[compelling and rich]

burns, root and stokes the only players to hold their own with the bat. big ask for them 3 to get another 400 runs though. lets face it the rest wont contribute much

[dummy_half]

Burns doing alright here, nailed down his spot for now.

He might not look good (indeed is positively awkward with his stance), but he seems to understand his technique and his job at the top of the order - Odd to think that a guy who has een consistently successful in CC over the last few years might be a good pick...

Still plenty more for him and Root to do, but 100-2 is a moderately encouraging start.

[Gooseberry]

Burns doing alright here, nailed down his spot for now.

He might not look good (indeed is positively awkward with his stance), but he seems to understand his technique and his job at the top of the order - Odd to think that a guy who has een consistently successful in CC over the last few years might be a good pick...

Still plenty more for him and Root to do, but 100-2 is a moderately encouraging start.

Cough (Stoneman, Jennings, Lyth, Robson, Malan, Vince, Ballance etc) cough

But yes he deserved his place and has secured it for the winter as a minimum.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Burns doing alright here, nailed down his spot for now.

He might not look good (indeed is positively awkward with his stance), but he seems to understand his technique and his job at the top of the order - Odd to think that a guy who has een consistently successful in CC over the last few years might be a good pick...

Still plenty more for him and Root to do, but 100-2 is a moderately encouraging start.

Cough (Stoneman, Jennings, Lyth, Robson, Malan, Vince, Ballance etc) cough

But yes he deserved his place and has secured it for the winter as a minimum.

How many of them would you pick over Roy?! At least 6?

[robbo277]

burns, root and stokes the only players to hold their own with the bat. big ask for them 3 to get another 400 runs though. lets face it the rest wont contribute much

We don't need to match the Aussies first innings though, we just need to bat long enough to put the draw on top.

This game is pretty much gone in terms of winning it, unless Australia suffer a third innings collapse. But we need to put the draw on top and then see if we can force a result from there.

[Soul Requiem]

Burns does have a better first class record than all of them with the exception of Balance so is surprising it took so long for him to get selected, I don't think he'll be the long long term solution but he'll have to do for now.

[dummy_half]

Burns doing alright here, nailed down his spot for now.

He might not look good (indeed is positively awkward with his stance), but he seems to understand his technique and his job at the top of the order - Odd to think that a guy who has een consistently successful in CC over the last few years might be a good pick...

Still plenty more for him and Root to do, but 100-2 is a moderately encouraging start.

Cough (Stoneman, Jennings, Lyth, Robson, Malan, Vince, Ballance etc) cough

But yes he deserved his place and has secured it for the winter as a minimum.

Goose

I'd argue that only Ballance and Vince of those you listed has had consistent success over a similar period - others have had a good year or good start to a season and been promoted to the England side on the strength of that. And we all know that with Vince there's a mentality / concentration issue that means he underperforms at Test level compared with CC level, and Ballance has a technical weakness that is only found out by top quality pace bowlers.

[Guest]

Bang on draw. One test match shootout at the Oval now.

[VTR]

I'm not calling the draw yet. With Roy and Buttler to come, this can easily become 200-6 from here. If that were to happen we would be looking at following on

[robbo277]

England manage to get to tea with only 1 wicket lost (that of the nightwatchman), albeit that was with a slight rain assist.

125-2 and the batsmen looking relatively untroubled. They'll have to start again, but if they can negotiate the tricky period after the interval then it's a long session and we could easily add in excess of 100-120 runs. Important these two do the bulk of the scoring now they're in though and we could really do with at least one of them starting again tomorrow morning.

When Roy comes out (and ideally it's tomorrow morning!), it will be with at least 47.1 overs in the ball and the bowlers' legs and at least 125 runs on the board, so it's a world of difference to opening and even his innings at 3. Hopefully he can put his travails at the top of the order behind him and just go and bat. Doesn't even have to be particularly aggressive, just gets in and gets some runs under his belt.

[Duty281]

This is a nice start. Cummins and Hazlewood looking threatening, but Starc and Lyon less so. Burns and Root not in total control, though they're doing a fairly decent job so far.

It's a million miles away from a nailed-on draw, yet. This England are very capable of losing all 8 remaining wickets inside a single session - indeed, England have lost all 10 wickets inside a single session on 4 occasions in their last 37 tests!

Lot of work to do, but hopefully England can find dry land. Still have Aussies as favourites from here.

[dummy_half]

Bang on draw. One test match shootout at the Oval now.

A VERY long way from that as yet. All we can say is that's been England's best session of the match so far - 100 runs for the loss only of the night watchman is pretty OK when you are mainly looking to save a Test (noting that we are essentially only half way through the 5 days of the match).

[Gooseberry]

Burns doing alright here, nailed down his spot for now.

He might not look good (indeed is positively awkward with his stance), but he seems to understand his technique and his job at the top of the order - Odd to think that a guy who has een consistently successful in CC over the last few years might be a good pick...

Still plenty more for him and Root to do, but 100-2 is a moderately encouraging start.

Cough (Stoneman, Jennings, Lyth, Robson, Malan, Vince, Ballance etc) cough

But yes he deserved his place and has secured it for the winter as a minimum.

How many of them would you pick over Roy?! At least 6?

Hales

[robbo277]

This is a nice start. Cummins and Hazlewood looking threatening, but Starc and Lyon less so. Burns and Root not in total control, though they're doing a fairly decent job so far.

It's a million miles away from a nailed-on draw, yet. This England are very capable of losing all 8 remaining wickets inside a single session - indeed, England have lost all 10 wickets inside a single session on 4 occasions in their last 37 tests!

Lot of work to do, but hopefully England can find dry land. Still have Aussies as favourites from here.

We're a long way behind so we have to keep fighting the whole time. But the pitch isn't doing loads and the analysis all suggests that as the session went on the threat dropped across the board and the batsman started to look in control.

I think 67ao may have helped focus a lot of minds in that changing room. This is a home Ashes series and you don't get many chances at that, and the batting since then has been loads better. Even leaving to one side Stokes' ridiculousness, Root has been better, Denly made a 50 and Bairstow got a breezy 30-odd last test and Burns is 60* here.

[Gooseberry]

Crowds getting at Lyon. Good stuff for the fans

[Gooseberry]

This is a nice start. Cummins and Hazlewood looking threatening, but Starc and Lyon less so. Burns and Root not in total control, though they're doing a fairly decent job so far.

It's a million miles away from a nailed-on draw, yet. This England are very capable of losing all 8 remaining wickets inside a single session - indeed, England have lost all 10 wickets inside a single session on 4 occasions in their last 37 tests!

Lot of work to do, but hopefully England can find dry land. Still have Aussies as favourites from here.

We're a long way behind so we have to keep fighting the whole time. But the pitch isn't doing loads and the analysis all suggests that as the session went on the threat dropped across the board and the batsman started to look in control.

I think 67ao may have helped focus a lot of minds in that changing room. This is a home Ashes series and you don't get many chances at that, and the batting since then has been loads better. Even leaving to one side Stokes' ridiculousness, Root has been better, Denly made a 50 and Bairstow got a breezy 30-odd last test and Burns is 60* here.

Shame the other times they've got out for under 100 this year didnt focus their minds.

[robbo277]

This is a nice start. Cummins and Hazlewood looking threatening, but Starc and Lyon less so. Burns and Root not in total control, though they're doing a fairly decent job so far.

It's a million miles away from a nailed-on draw, yet. This England are very capable of losing all 8 remaining wickets inside a single session - indeed, England have lost all 10 wickets inside a single session on 4 occasions in their last 37 tests!

Lot of work to do, but hopefully England can find dry land. Still have Aussies as favourites from here.

We're a long way behind so we have to keep fighting the whole time. But the pitch isn't doing loads and the analysis all suggests that as the session went on the threat dropped across the board and the batsman started to look in control.

I think 67ao may have helped focus a lot of minds in that changing room. This is a home Ashes series and you don't get many chances at that, and the batting since then has been loads better. Even leaving to one side Stokes' ridiculousness, Root has been better, Denly made a 50 and Bairstow got a breezy 30-odd last test and Burns is 60* here.

Shame the other times they've got out for under 100 this year didnt focus their minds.

It's in an Ashes series and nearly (and by all rights should have) cost them the series. Maybe they just care more this time.

The pitch at Headingley flattened out a bit and this one isn't doing loads (starting to turn a bit) but no-one's thrown it away yet, which is something at least. The wickets we have lost (Headingley second innings and this innings), only Archer I can think "gave it away" and he was trying to play the situation and take some of the pressure off Stokes.

Our last 11 wickets have cost Australia 487 runs. It's been better. At least they've started to show some fight for it.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Tim Paine is #notgood

[Duty281]

Fantastic spell from Cummings after the break - baffling that he hasn't yet been rewarded with a wicket or two.

[robbo277]

Cummins has bowled really nicely here, but his spell is 9 overs old now and he's 0-21 from it. He's coming in again, but if England can see him off then they'd have done well. Could be Hazelwood coming on, might be Starc. If it's the latter then something will definitely happen, be it a clatter of wicket or a few boundaries.

[Soul Requiem]

Tim Paine is #notgood

To be honest I don't think Paine is making the decisions, he's just a puppet for Smith to actually captain.

[Duty281]

Deserved breakthrough and it has come from Hazlewood, Australia's best bowler of the series. Burns gone for 81 - another innings laced with good fortune.

And now you take stock and see England are still 331 adrift, with a new ball in 15 overs time.

[compelling and rich]

come on Jason, time to step up

[Soul Requiem]

Good fortune? Just admit Duty you don't like him.

[Duty281]

Good fortune? Just admit Duty you don't like him.

Yeah, loads of it. He was at about a 20% false shot percentage for most of the innings. It's better to be lucky than good, mind.

[JDizzle]

Good fortune? Just admit Duty you don't like him.

Yeah, loads of it. He was at about a 20% false shot percentage for most of the innings. It's better to be lucky than good, mind.

I'm sceptical of that stat from CricViz. Some players just get beat more often than others, there is a skill in playing inside the line - certainly left handers will find it easier playing inside the line with balls going across them.

[Soul Requiem]

Good fortune? Just admit Duty you don't like him.

Yeah, loads of it. He was at about a 20% false shot percentage for most of the innings. It's better to be lucky than good, mind.

Basic lack of understanding of how to play cricket, a false shot is not playing the line of the ball which Burns does, very misleading statistic.

[Duty281]

Good fortune? Just admit Duty you don't like him.

Yeah, loads of it. He was at about a 20% false shot percentage for most of the innings. It's better to be lucky than good, mind.

I'm sceptical of that stat from CricViz. Some players just get beat more often than others, there is a skill in playing inside the line - certainly left handers will find it easier playing inside the line with balls going across them.

You don't even need the stat, really, you can just look at the innings he played to see how clueless he was at times. But he does have this knack of putting each poor shot or good delivery out of his mind. He's certainly not a long-term option, but he's probably got most of the winter at least.

Ah, Root gone now. England deep in the mire once more.

[compelling and rich]

balls

[JDizzle]

Good fortune? Just admit Duty you don't like him.

Yeah, loads of it. He was at about a 20% false shot percentage for most of the innings. It's better to be lucky than good, mind.

I'm sceptical of that stat from CricViz. Some players just get beat more often than others, there is a skill in playing inside the line - certainly left handers will find it easier playing inside the line with balls going across them.

You don't even need the stat, really, you can just look at the innings he played to see how clueless he was at times. But he does have this knack of putting each poor shot or good delivery out of his mind. He's certainly not a long-term option, but he's probably got most of the winter at least.

Ah, Root gone now. England deep in the mire once more.

Players like Burns will always get less rope than someone like an Ian Bell who looks glorious. At some point, if he keeps churning out runs, you just have to say it doesn't matter what we looks like. I speaks as someone who rates James Vince!

On the plus side, Root now only needs 25 more scores of 50-99 to pass Tendulkar as the man with the most 50-99 scores in Test cricket. Should take him around 50 more tests at this current rate, very doable.

[Gooseberry]

Look at the score. Add on two wickets.
Take them off again and England are still rubbish

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