Japan 2019 - Pool A Ireland Japan Russia Samoa Scotland

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Team	Played	Won	Drawn	Lost	Tries	PF	PA	+/-	BP	Points
Japan	3	3	0	0	9	87	41	+46	2	14
Ireland	3	2	0	1	11	74	22	+52	3	11
Scotland	3	2	0	1	13	98	27	71	2	10
Samoa	3	1	0	2	7	53	81	-28	1	5
Russia	3	0	0	3	1	19	125	-106	0	0

Japan 30-10 Russia              
Ireland 27-3 Scotland  
Russia 9-34 Samoa                        
Japan 19-12 Ireland                          
Scotland 34-0 Samoa
Ireland 35-0 Russia
Japan 38-19 Samoa
Scotland 61-0 Russia  

                                       
                     
12 October 2019         Ireland v Samoa                         Fukuoka Hakatanomori Stadium, Fukuoka
13 October 2019         Japan v Scotland                         International Stadium Yokohama, Yokohama


Two games left. If Ireland get a TBP win on Saturday they qualify for the quarter finals irrespective of the result on Sunday. Any other result and they need to wait and see what happens between Japan and Scotland.
Any win for Japan and they will top the group (in fact a draw or losing with two bonus points will guarantee the same)
Most interesting scenario is if Ireland win without a bonus point - opening up a chance for Scotland to top the group if all 3 teams end up on 15pts and Scotland are able to keep their points difference ahead of Ireland.

Japan may have given all their energy to the Ireland game.  So they might be less impressive in their remaining games.

BUT, they have serious Kiwi coaches.  They claim super humidity-proof fitness.  They proved they have an explosive expansive + physical gameplan.  They proved they can churn quality out for 80 minutes. They are at home (massive energy from crowd), it's a WC, and they have their own ambitions about this WC and how far they want to get.  Ireland beat them twice in Japan using then 2nd string players (main players were with Lions) in 2017.
So caution about previous history with these boys.

If Samoa play anything like they did against Scotland then I'd kind of expect Japan to thrash them.  Question is was Samoa trying to save something for Japan.  They just didn't seem to be attacking the Scottish game with everything they had (the kitchen sink, as it were). They might do with Japan, or indeed Ireland.  I sense they are planning to attempt an ambush somewhere unexpected. So we (Japan and Ireland) have to be ready for a different Samoa, a more bloodthirsty Samoa.

tigertattie wrote:I can see the Samoans putting up a brick wall in defence

Are you new to watching Pacific Island teams play?

tigertattie wrote: (a team we've beaten each time we meet them - inc after they beat SA last WC)

...when Japan had a four day turnaround and Scotland had a full week. The boot's on the other foot this time around. Even if you can largely use a "reserve" team midweek, at least 7 players will be playing a second game in 4 days... which could be decisive in the later stages of the match when Japan's fitness and tempo will come to the fore.

Japan certainly look more capable this time around. None of the PI teams look good this year, they look unfit and poorly coached.

Pretty harsh to say Tonga look unfit. Seems fair for Samoa though. Hard to coach a team well when you hardly see the players as they are employed all round the globe.

Poorfour wrote:

tigertattie wrote: (a team we've beaten each time we meet them - inc after they beat SA last WC)

...when Japan had a four day turnaround and Scotland had a full week. The boot's on the other foot this time around. Even if you can largely use a "reserve" team midweek, at least 7 players will be playing a second game in 4 days... which could be decisive in the later stages of the match when Japan's fitness and tempo will come to the fore.

we beat them in Japan the last time too and there was no turn around time impacting that game.

Oddly Japan play the style of game Scotland love to play so thier game plan suits our game plan which is a bit of a kicker for Japan.

It's not going to be easy, but if Scotland can't beat japan then we quite rightly do not deserve to be in the QF and quite frankly we'd need to have a long hard look at ourselves.

Now that every team has played 2 games, I think it’s safe to say Russia and Samoa are both beatable with a BP. I fully expect Japan to get maximum points against Samoa, Ireland to get maximum points against Samoa and Russia and Scotland against Russia.

It is almost certainly going to come down to Scotland vs Japan as a decider for a place in the QF’s. Ireland are lucky they got the LBP against Japan, that’s saved their skins. I’d consider Ireland not picking up 5 points each from their last two fixtures a bigger embarrassment than losing to Japan considering what is at stake.

Japan are in a difficult situation whereby they need to win against Scotland or lose with a BP and LBP. Anything less and they’ll be gone and it’ll be a repeat of 2015 all over again. 

Scotland know they realistically need 15 points to finish the pool. Draw with Japan on points while beating them should be enough to get Scotland through going by the RWC rules on tied points (because Scotland will have beaten Japan, correct me if wrong).

So Japan are absolutely the favourites to qualify in my opinion, they have home advantage, scotland have a short turn around from the Russia game and Scotland also need to get max points from that game. Japan just need to win well against Samoa and prepare hard for their biggest game ever in Japanese Rugby history.

 I think Japan vs Scotland could be the game of the pool stages.

Ive already shared my opinion here but I'm very torn on scotland getting through or japan. I'd be happy for Japan tbh. If Scotland had only got the LBP against Ireland then I'd feel less guilty if Scotland got through as it does feel like Japan keep getting shafted on technicalities. I think dispense with the LBP system for the next WC or dispense with BPs full stop. Works well for a whole season, not so much tournament rugby.

Japan said that they prepared for two years to meet Ireland. Now of course, poetic licence alert for a good bulk of that. But the inference is, they were serious about their prep. But for sure, it wasn't just Ireland. This is a home WC, and the whole pool would have been a focus for the Japanese. They want out of it and into a QF.

So how much work have they done on Scotland? Like I said earlier, beating them a few years back is nice to know but proved pointless for us. They have been taking their beatings and storing the lessons.

Then again, now Scotland will be able to reassess the level of threat posed in advance. Leave the payment in Ireland's Swiss bank account as usual.

We deal in cash only. There's a tall skinny welshman in dark sunglasses waiting with a suitcase. Just ask for the multiplier on Japan v Scotland

SecretFly wrote:Japan may have given all their energy to the Ireland game.  So they might be less impressive in their remaining games.

BUT, they have serious Kiwi coaches.  They claim super humidity-proof fitness.  They proved they have an explosive expansive + physical gameplan.  They proved they can churn quality out for 80 minutes.  They are at home (massive energy from crowd), it's a WC, and they have their own ambitions about this WC and how far they want to get.  Ireland beat them twice in Japan using then 2nd string players (main players were with Lions) in 2017.
So caution about previous history with these boys.

If Samoa play anything like they did against Scotland then I'd kind of expect Japan to thrash them.  Question is was Samoa trying to save something for Japan.  They just didn't seem to be attacking the Scottish game with everything they had (the kitchen sink, as it were).  They might do with Japan, or indeed Ireland.  I sense they are planning to attempt an ambush somewhere unexpected.  So we (Japan and Ireland) have to be ready for a different Samoa, a more bloodthirsty Samoa.

I think Samoa are a spent force. They're a team in disarray. They were down against Russia before fitness told, and Russia were on the back of a short turnaround. They didn't come close to threatening Scotland and I don't think they'll threaten anyone. Injuries, suspensions and seeing their best players in different colour shirts have all hit the small nation hard.

Can Japan force the bonus point against Samoa? I'd expect any Tier 1 team to do so. 6 Nations teams do it against Italy and have experience doing it in other World Cups. Scotland and England have both timed bonus point pushes well against Samoa and Tonga respectively, believing in their patterns and their systems throughout the 80 rather than going into 7s mode. Will Japan be able to do a similar thing? Will they panic if they've only score 1 try in the first half? I think they're a good enough team (and Samoa are bad enough), but I wouldn't be putting all my money on them getting one.

Could leave a slight door open for Scotland if they don't.

I see world rugby cofirmed that 3 of the offside penalties awarded against Ireland were incorrect in the Japan game. Bad break.

Collapse2005 wrote:I see world rugby cofirmed that 3 of the offside penalties awarded against Ireland were incorrect in the Japan game. Bad break.

Too bad they didn't review the 'penalties' in the warm-ups against Wales.

Samoa are pretty useless at the moment nd have been for a while. Wouldn't count on Japan not scoring 4. Fairly confident they will.

Collapse2005 wrote:I see world rugby cofirmed that 3 of the offside penalties awarded against Ireland were incorrect in the Japan game. Bad break.

Gardner's review will have cost him any chance of a knock-out game.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I see world rugby cofirmed that 3 of the offside penalties awarded against Ireland were incorrect in the Japan game. Bad break.

Too bad they didn't review the 'penalties' in the warm-ups against Wales.

Still sore about those two warm up games, mikey?

Let it go....bad for the mental health.  Sorry to have ruined Gatland's send off, when I'm sure a final double whammy humiliation for Ireland and Joe Shmidt was planned.  Sometimes things just don't go according to plan...like Japan for example. . Ya just have to put it all down to experience.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I see world rugby cofirmed that 3 of the offside penalties awarded against Ireland were incorrect in the Japan game. Bad break.

Too bad they didn't review the 'penalties' in the warm-ups against Wales.

I see the dragons got another spanking at the weekend. No wonder you're frustrated.

profitius wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I see world rugby cofirmed that 3 of the offside penalties awarded against Ireland were incorrect in the Japan game. Bad break.

Too bad they didn't review the 'penalties' in the warm-ups against Wales.

I see the dragons got another spanking at the weekend. No wonder you're frustrated.

Wales are topping their group so I'm not frustrated.

England 57 - 15 Ireland. Japan 19 - 12 Ireland

mikey_dragon wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I see world rugby cofirmed that 3 of the offside penalties awarded against Ireland were incorrect in the Japan game. Bad break.

Too bad they didn't review the 'penalties' in the warm-ups against Wales.

They did. Every game is reviewed and feedback given to the respective unions. Results not usually released by World Rugby (link please Collapse) but often leaked by the Union who feel they have been badly reffed.

Or they change the rules as WR figures that its unsporting.

Hmmm.  Ref issues?  Well, ..... let's just say most Irish dogs on the street had their 'concerns' about the tone of that there reffing performance.  But from the posts... post game... it's evident we didn't make a song and dance about it, coz we're harmonious folk who don't like always blaming refs.....

Big question is - 2 of the offside decisions were called by the AR - who is reffing the next Irish match.
So does that mean a repeat of the decision making process errors?

Sounds like Ireland just need to suck it up, they have got away with other infringements for years.

What comes around goes around.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49893140

Everyone has got away with infringements over the years - some more than others. Funny how it doesn't stop people whinging about refereeing decisions that go against them? Refs are human and make mistakes - the problem - if it is a problem - is if a decision seriously affects the outcome of the game. Not talking about Ireland here - they got beat by Japan and the argument is you need to be far enough ahead that a ref decision can't be the thing that makes you lose, but you can look back to previous RWCs - how did the ABs feel about Barnes decision, how did Scotland feel about the penalty that gave Australia the game last time out. I'm sure that there are more examples. Retrospective admissions of ref errors sadly don't change the game result. I'm just being devils advocate here but if a team loses because of a clear ref error (or maybe I should say refereeing team error as there are 4 involved) is a statement from World Rugby or the referees body the next day recompense?
And "what goes around comes around" is fair enough if it balances out at the end of the day, but is a decision that robs your team of a RWC equitable with a decision in a later friendly where there is not the same kudos attached.
Just asking

TightHEAD wrote:Sounds like Ireland just need to suck it up, they have got away with other infringements for years.

What comes around goes around.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49893140

Yep, I agree with closing down the 'Officiating Not Good Enough' thread.  No more talk of reffing bad decisions for the remainder of the WC....................................................................................

Everyone agree?  ..................................................................................................

*Crickets*

The Great Aukster wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I see world rugby cofirmed that 3 of the offside penalties awarded against Ireland were incorrect in the Japan game. Bad break.

Gardner's review will have cost him any chance of a knock-out game.

Aparently Gardner had got a lot of criticism in his previous game for not calling offsides. maybe Garces like Gardner might over compensate in his next game. Who knows.

Collapse2005 wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I see world rugby cofirmed that 3 of the offside penalties awarded against Ireland were incorrect in the Japan game. Bad break.

Gardner's review will have cost him any chance of a knock-out game.

Aparently Gardner had got a lot of criticism in his previous game for not calling offsides. maybe Garces like Gardner might over compensate in his next game. Who knows.

Human nature I guess. If your feedback is you need to go looking for offsides guess what you're gonna do next time...can't win...

Personally, the 3 decisions matter nothing to me. Ireland were simply beaten and really should not have been in a position where decisions like those would have an impact on the result.

One of my pet hates and something I have been banging on about for years is Ireland's seemingly inability to adjust to referee's. That is as big a part of game preparation as any other aspect of the game.

And yet we have quite a good discipline record overall.... which usually means being in touch with what a referee lets go and what he doesn't. We're really not that bad at it at all.

Yet, you'll always be hit by some games where that 'relationship' can disintegrate. You could say more, but why bother.

We lost because Japan were too good. But we didn't have a good 'relationship' with the ref, which was probably the result of events, issues and words before the game as much as it might have been specific issues on the day itself.

But onwards. This isn't the Official 'Officiating Not Good Enough' thread.

Ireland suffer (to a lesser extend) to the same issue that Scotland do and that's being too naive and not playing the rules the ref is playing.

The all blacks have a saying "it's not cheating if you dont get caught"

I've not commented on the game yet, been flat out busy spinning plates.

Ireland were out on their feet after 30 minutes of the game. A few off side decisions going their way would not have mattered as there were a few missed in their favour anyway. They simply hadn't the energy to continue a high tempo game after too short of a turn around. Carty lost the plot after 25 mins IMO and there simply wasn't anybody to orchestrate the gameplan with Murray gasping for air. Carberry.....well the less said the better, I don't rate the guy.

P.S. this is all just my opinion, we all have them so please go easy on me, I'm as tired as an Irish rugby player after a 6 day turn around.

Problem - or solution - is that we might have to rely heavily on guys we mightn't rate.  Such is our game style, such is the continuing issues with minor or major injuries ramping up, that the lads that some of us might not want to see may be tasked with the bigger games if we make it that far.
That can be when the wheels come off - but that won't be a shock.  Or if could be moments of beauty as a few non-rated lads are reborn as legends.  Some of those players might not even be in Japan right now.
We just have to kick on and keep fighting.  Fate will handle the rest.

Not saying we shouldn't be concerned but I thought Japan were very impressive and could have taken out a number of Tier 1 sides on the day. We've had worse performances this year at any rate. The +21 point handicap in favour of Ireland was crazy especially given Japan have basically been training together as a club side for 12 months. We started well showing a bit more variation in attack with Carty at the helm but Japan really didn't let us into the game at any stage after that.

At the very least we hung onto an important LBP which we have Earls to thank for. If Japan can repeat that level I'd back them to beat Scotland and top the group. That leaves us with a QF against the ABs which admittedly looks a very tall order right now especially if the lineout doesn't function. If Beirne goes well vs Russia I'd like to see him in line for a start as the back row hasn't impressed in a while.

Unfortunately it looks like Schmidt's tenure will go out on a damp squib and he won't be remembered for all the success that came before. A QF defeat to NZ or SA might be easier to accept if we didn't play such conservative turgid stuff at times - we're probably the worst Tier 1 side off turnover ball and we just revert to one out runners after one or two phases.

Post Joe Schmidt we'll just have to admit a few home truths and add quite a few more REGULAR strings to our bow in games.  Most important is in bringing offloading into our game as a normal comfortable ingredient, not as a rare maverick.  For a top team, it just has to be used because it has become an intrinsic weapon in creating space... AND it relieves the physical pressures teams experience through 80 mins.... and it scores tries often using less energy per try than Ireland's favoured forward based ones.

I hate when I hear people suggest it is a luxury element that borders too much on risk v safety.  Rubbish.  It's simply another rugby skill that should be part of the arsenal of every top side.  And it's not even that special a skill if used as a central facet in training.  Too many teams now use it effectively throughout backs and forwards for Ireland to be shunning it as too risky.
So a faster, offloading game is something I'd pretty much demand now from our International side with our new head coach.  I'm not even saying you have to forget all the tight game principles we've become good at over the years.  But you certainly make the other brand of rugby a more familiar friend through campaigns.

All that said, I truly believe we have still plenty in the tank to challenge SA or NZ in a QF.  Japan caught us because after a pretty full on game against Scotland, we sent out a fair chunk of the same players to contain Japan in the very next game.  They didn't mean to be contained and we simply didn't have the energy to repel them.  [still decent defensive shift though, keeping such a hungry team to one try].
We had two Scotland games in a row.  We should expect such continuous intensity in a WC but we didn't really.

Schmidt coming out and talking about the 3 penalties smacks of desperation to me.

I'd ask whose benefit is this for? Maybe it adds a touch of pressure to the ref, but who is this for?

Again, I'd question whether this is control freak Schmidt not quite getting the right level of freedom to the 'event' or rugby, and awareness about what to control and what he cannot.

After the 25-7 (?) loss in Cardiff, he came out and spoke about it being a 1-all try game. As if his team hadn't just been outclassed and outfought fairly comfortably. As if Wales didn't have Ireland on the ropes, who resorted to penalties to stop the tries from coming. As if Ireland's try didn't come in the 81st minute while the Welsh players were already thinking about the night out.

I just don't quite get his post match statements after a defeat. It's calm, measured, analytical...but it belies the anger that's there, that he's hiding, that he wants to control the narrative of what happened...but doesn't quite seem to understand that the points he raises aren't really all that relevant, and no one is buying it.

Ireland didn't lose the game because of 3 offside calls. They lost because Japan outfought them and, then, out ran them. The handling skills were the key difference.

Miaow.... just to be clear, we're certainly not the only side that rushes to see where Refs might have played a role in our defeat.  Not by a long shot are we the only team, coach or fans who indulge in that game.

Schmidt has a right to point out technical truths - and in public.  For not only do these presumed infringments give impetus to your opponent and add hesitancy to your own actions, but more importantly, to have such perceptions hold is to give you a reputation going into other games that might lend to other referees paying more particular attention to your actions than having an equal eye on both teams.

We already know the Japanese coach and a certain player already tried to influence the ref in advance of the game.  That's modern rugby.  Gatland has often engaged in such activity.

Joe was right to make it known that nope we weren't unduly casual with the offside line any more than any other team in Japan.  His message for refs - keep an eye on both teams and don't impede our game by telling us our legal bits are illegal.

Congrats to Japan.  They won because they played well enough to.

I think the issue I'm having is with Schmidt in partcular, Fly. Not hte fans. It's not so much the ref, it's his post match comments.

I get the sense he's created too much of a culture of fear within the camp, and then pretends everythng's nice and fine in front of the media. 3 losses this year - Wales in Cardiff, England at Twickenham, and now Japan n Japan. All have been fairly poor post match reflections from Schmidt, wth the previous 2 predicated on 'well, just wait for Japan'. Well...you waited and it's not gone well.

On the back of those performances, I'd almost want a bit more blood and thunder from Schmidt. Rugby isn't solely technical, sometmes you just need to smash the living daylights out of the other team, or run them off the park, as Japan did. I get the sense that is missng through fear of making mstakes and being hammered n front of your teammates and colleagues on a Monday morning.

All a bt too dictatorial from Joe. I also wonder what role Farrell has - clearly an ambitous man, he's worked his way up the IRFU, and yet had a terrible record last WC when things didn't go too well. Something's not right, and I feel the post match focus in the media is all symbolic of it.

I can perhaps see how others might look at it.  But I've been watching Joe a long time now both as International coach and as Leinster coach.

He has changed.  Like I said perhaps on another thread a few days back, some think Joe is all pent up, uneasy and under pressure.  I see him the most relaxed (as a coach) I've seen him.  A big shift in his persona in the last year or two.  Much less timid and apologetic.  Yes, more confrontational and abrasive.  In a sense, he's become a more typical Kiwi coach.... and despite my regular swipes at Gats over the years, I like Kiwi coaches, their snarly abrasiveness.  I think Joe remains a nice man but he's become less accommodating as a coach and I like it.
I get the impression the team are still quietly confident.  I don't think the Japan game will haunt them at all.  I think they'll be ready to give whoever they might meet in a QF a bloody good game.  If we get there of course, as teams who have lost a game always have to acknowledge.

That Japan side would have given any Tier 1 side a spook in the mood and fluidity of their game, as they already proved in another WC.  We got the treatment this time.  No shame, just respect to them.  But SA got it last WC yet got to a semi final against the eventual winners who beat them by 2 points. And who did SA beat in the QF that year? So Pool confidence doesn't always transfer to play off potency.

Nah.  We're not out of this fight yet. I'm relaxed - after a day of fury on Saturday . I just sense a different mood in this Irish squad than others seem to be sensing. Future tells all.

5:42am. Jet lag still not properly gone. Looking forward to getting out of Osaka for the day and getting to Kobe. More than 12 hours to the game. It was pretty over cast yesterday but warm, nothing crippling.

Enjoy your time in Japan, Guns. What games have you got tickets?

Japan v South Africa all over again in the 1/4s....what a belter.

Pie, SA would win by 20.

Ireland v Russia and SA v Italy, thanks.

Enjoy! and Enjoy Japan, fantastic place.

Collapse2005 wrote:Ireland v Russia and SA v Italy, thanks.

Cool, have a good one, the place looks fantastic

Thanks, I really like Japan, so this was a great excuse to come back. First time in Osaka and Kobe though.

Plenty of Irish here, some English, Kiwis, Italians and Argentinians. There was a Kiwi school on a school tour in Osaka castle yesterday. Lucky kids. Masterson school.

Oh, thats just up the road. Brian Lochore territory.

My bet would be Ireland 55 Russia 0. They (Russia) look like the worst side in the competition by a distance.

Cyril wrote:Pie, SA would win by 20.

Im sure that if we scroll back to 606V2 thread on Japan v SA 2015 you are saying the exact same thing.

Very wet in Kobe today, not very hot