Rugby World Cup - Eligibility, Poaching etc

First topic message reminder :

LondonTiger wrote:
https://rugby365.com/countries/argentina/world-cup-players-born-abroad

To try and avoid other threads getting caught up in discussions about player eligibility and following recent comments from Agustin Pichot and Danny Care I have set up this thread with the above article as a starter. Taken from a NZ website it is as you would expect defensive of NZ. A WoL article would do the same for Wales as would joe.ie etc etc.

Some key things:

Birth does not always tell the full story.

Some examples then given where place of birth is not always relevant.

Number of Foreign-born Players per Country

19 Samoa
16 Tonga
15 USA
14 Japan, Scotland
12 Australia
8 Italy, Wales
7 England
5 France
4 Canada, Fiji, Ireland, New Zealand
1 Georgia, Russia South Africa
0 Argentina, Namibia, Uruguay
The Main Donors
48 New Zealand
18 England
13 Australia, South Africa
8 Tonga
7 Fiji
6 Ireland

It should be noted that these numbers are not necessarily correct. England have 6 players not born in England, the guys writing the article just cannot count.

Now the warning (and I may regret starting this thread):

This is not an excuse to slag off other countries. Please concentrate on your own country as much as possible, after all are you actually losing players you want to keep? 

Just seen this from care as well on the bbc:

Players are just pawns. You look at it and is there much loyalty in it? Maybe not," he told Rugby Union Weekly.

"Some are given an easier route than those who worked a fair bit harder."

Subscribe to the BBC's Rugby Union Weekly podcast

Care, 32, has won 84 England caps, but only one of those has come at a World Cup. He was ruled out of the 2011 tournament with a toe injury and was third-choice scrum-half in 2015, making a solitary appearance in England's 60-3 dead-rubber win over Uruguay.

He says that he holds no hard feelings towards Heinz, who moved to Gloucester in 2015 from Canterbury-based Crusaders, but believes the current eligibility rules are unfair.

Second row Devin Toner was overlooked for Ireland's World Cup squad in favour of South Africa-born Jean Kleyn, who served out the required three-year residency period in August.

At 33, Toner is unlikely to be in contention for a place at France 2023

World Rugby vice president Agustin Pichot tweeted that he was sympathetic to Toner's predicament. The governing body has already changed the rule, extending the residency period to five years from the end of 2020.

"I started playing rugby at five in England, dreamed of playing for my country in a World Cup," continued Care.

"You do all the hard work, you stay in England, don't look to play for a club abroad to make more money because you want to play for England and win a World Cup - now that is not going to happen.

"A lot of players who have done well for whatever country and it comes to the World Cup, the pinnacle, where you hope that loyalty and hard work is paid back and it is taken away from you. That is the disappointment. That is why is hurts so much."

You can understand the bitterness but it's a little me me me and somehow being owed. Comes back for me to those comments coming out about how it's a better atmosphere in the england camp these days. Perhaps you dont want those players who perhaps spit their dummy out a little?

Taylorman wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Where I think they are, from a rugby sense. But as a general rule, tend to agree.

The one rule for all is a bit ill defined for me.

For example, why is it that 'Toby' didnt get to keep his real name then? One rule for all sure insists everyone is known by their own name.  So yeah, one rule for all, as long as its 'our rule'.

No one changed his name you fool. That’s how he liked to be known. You’ll have to ask him why he wanted people to call him Toby. And people respected his wishes and called him Toby. And as soon as he wanted to be called Taulupe people respected that and referred to him from thence forth as Taulupe. That’s respect.

And when I say ‘one rule for all’ I’m talking about World Rugby and eligibility. In essence, I don’t think that the PIs should be a special case and be allowed to play for their ‘roots’ after being capped elsewhere when there will be cases of other players in other nations with the same desire to go back to their roots: Irish players who may want to play for their ‘roots’ in the South Africa, or Welsh capped players who want to go back to NZ, or Italians who want to go back to their Scottish roots. That’s the one rule for all I’m talking about. It’s not my rule. It’s World Rugby’s (currently).  

Whereas I do. PI rugby has such a presence in World rugby and they get nothing back in return. I'm not saying its anyones fault, I just think that the rules need to be changed to allow 'Islanders' to play for their 'Island' at this event, regardless of whatever rules are out there.

We should allow Piutau, or Faletau to play for Tonga, purely because they are Tongan. Simple. I don't care who's rule it is.

Only issue is Faletau would rather play for Wales while Piutau could of played for Tonga if the 7s had been kinder (though we all know he would rather be an AB still).

What can NZ do more to help the PIs.  Can they not petition SANZAAR to let them into the RC and tell the PI players that each SR team in NZ will given them places without having to sign an "I want to be an All Black form" pledging their loyalty to the AB machine.  Give Mitre 10 spots to PI teams like SA has done with Argentina, Nambia and Zimbabwe. Or Oz with Fiji.  NZ wants everyone to help except themselves because they are just to important (but everyone else does do stuff for the weaker teams)

The NH already gives 2/3 games a year to the PIs against 6N teams.  We employ alot of them (especially if you count fake New Zealanders who just want to be PI boys like Nonu and Kaino who you mentioned earlier)
Clubs in the NH fund whole villages in the islands as they pump money in via inflated wages.

'Clubs in the NH fund whole villages in the islands as they pump money in via inflated wages.'

yeah in PI thats translated as "the clowns up there pay us millions to run around with a ball cos they dont know how to". Its quite the laugh.

Taylorman wrote:'Clubs in the NH fund whole villages in the islands as they pump money in via inflated wages.'

yeah in PI thats translated as "the clowns up there pay us millions to run around with a ball cos they dont know how to". Its quite the laugh.

Or could be translate as "you got a contact up North the village will be glad, your cousin only got a SR contact so his village has nothing"

yeah you could, but they don't. Why would you do agree to doing much more for less?

How much does AWJ take back to his little village?

Taylorman wrote:Oh well that’s a bit selective. Sevens is a by product of Fifteens and in Fiji it’s far more competitive than here. Fiji have by far the best domestic Sevens set up. We have none, maybe a once a year regional thing on a weekend.

It was you who included the All Black Sevens coaching role when you were listing the jobs NZRU had available for your guys. If you don't think it's serious job in New Zealand, then you probably shouldn't have done so. Perhaps the NZRU also shouldn't have used the All Black trademark for the national sevens side. They could have stripped the name after the Rio failure but elected to try and repair the damage to the brand. By turning to a Scottish coach.

Yes agree with that. I wasn't targeting 7's just providing the very short exhaustive list of possibilities.

I know you're a keen sevens fan and for me it just sits a little awkwardly in the overall scheme of things in some respects but for sure the World circuit is a great vehicle for promoting it.

Getting the right players must be difficult as your team quality depends on the XV's resources. And if a player ends up a great Sevens player theyre inevitably picked up in XV's, so its a case of trying to wi yet keeping under the radar at the same time.

Taylorman wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Where I think they are, from a rugby sense. But as a general rule, tend to agree.

The one rule for all is a bit ill defined for me.

For example, why is it that 'Toby' didnt get to keep his real name then? One rule for all sure insists everyone is known by their own name.  So yeah, one rule for all, as long as its 'our rule'.

No one changed his name you fool. That’s how he liked to be known. You’ll have to ask him why he wanted people to call him Toby. And people respected his wishes and called him Toby. And as soon as he wanted to be called Taulupe people respected that and referred to him from thence forth as Taulupe. That’s respect.

And when I say ‘one rule for all’ I’m talking about World Rugby and eligibility. In essence, I don’t think that the PIs should be a special case and be allowed to play for their ‘roots’ after being capped elsewhere when there will be cases of other players in other nations with the same desire to go back to their roots: Irish players who may want to play for their ‘roots’ in the South Africa, or Welsh capped players who want to go back to NZ, or Italians who want to go back to their Scottish roots. That’s the one rule for all I’m talking about. It’s not my rule. It’s World Rugby’s (currently).  

Whereas I do. PI rugby has such a presence in World rugby and they get nothing back in return. I'm not saying its anyones fault, I just think that the rules need to be changed to allow 'Islanders' to play for their 'Island' at this event, regardless of whatever rules are out there.

We should allow Piutau, or Faletau to play for Tonga, purely because they are Tongan. Simple. I don't care who's rule it is.

Get nothing back?!  Have you seen the Fijian world cup squad?  Look at the teams they play for.  Glasgow, Bordeaux, Biarritz, Harlequins, Racing 92, Northampton, Clermont, La Rochelle, Castres, Lyon, Stade Francais, etc.  They're some of the biggest hitters in European Rugby.  Some of that Fiji Squad, particularly the ones in France, will be earning more than a large proportion of the players in Wales for example.  They're getting plenty!

I do understand the sentiment about allowing players to play for their nation of origin.  But I think if you let the PIs do it then you have to extend it to everyone.  You have to allow Aki to represent NZ if there was a call for it; Parisse to turn out for Argentina; half the Japan squad to run out for their original nations.  Why not?  A mate of mine is out in Oz.  He moved for work and lifestyle, a new start for the family, etc.  He's a half decent rugby player.  But if he played pro and got capped by Oz due to him being out there, being settled, being thankful for the opportunity.... what then? I expect he'd want to play for Wales given the chance in the future.  So why couldn't he?  Why just the PI teams?

Seems to be a bit of a "You can have them back when we're done with them" feel to the recent proposals on this thread.

You measure them scientifically for value to the cause - fitness, form, age etc.  Then offload them back to their Roots Nations when you know they'll present no real threat anymore...based on the sports science studies, clinical minute evidence on specific injuries and cumulative wear and tear.

Bargain Basement Ex-Elite Soldiers.

Yeah, I agree 'Fly. Surely what we/world rugby should be looking at is the best way to support players to play for their country of origin if that is indeed what they want to do, rather than feeling the need to turn out for the 'host' country to further their careers and income. Maybe changing rules to avoid players being 'trapped in a cap' at a very young age could be looked, although they're not babies so I'm sure they know what they're doing.

As well as it looking like sides giving players 'back' when we're done with them there is also the opposite: players who are now out of favour in the twilight of their careers (e.g. with Wales, All Blacks, France, Ireland) trying to rinse a few more years out of international rugby to get the benefits that go with it. It would further add to the accusations of these players as rugby mercenaries scouring the globe for the next bit of cash or sponsorship.

The Oracle wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Where I think they are, from a rugby sense. But as a general rule, tend to agree.

The one rule for all is a bit ill defined for me.

For example, why is it that 'Toby' didnt get to keep his real name then? One rule for all sure insists everyone is known by their own name.  So yeah, one rule for all, as long as its 'our rule'.

No one changed his name you fool. That’s how he liked to be known. You’ll have to ask him why he wanted people to call him Toby. And people respected his wishes and called him Toby. And as soon as he wanted to be called Taulupe people respected that and referred to him from thence forth as Taulupe. That’s respect.

And when I say ‘one rule for all’ I’m talking about World Rugby and eligibility. In essence, I don’t think that the PIs should be a special case and be allowed to play for their ‘roots’ after being capped elsewhere when there will be cases of other players in other nations with the same desire to go back to their roots: Irish players who may want to play for their ‘roots’ in the South Africa, or Welsh capped players who want to go back to NZ, or Italians who want to go back to their Scottish roots. That’s the one rule for all I’m talking about. It’s not my rule. It’s World Rugby’s (currently).  

Whereas I do. PI rugby has such a presence in World rugby and they get nothing back in return. I'm not saying its anyones fault, I just think that the rules need to be changed to allow 'Islanders' to play for their 'Island' at this event, regardless of whatever rules are out there.

We should allow Piutau, or Faletau to play for Tonga, purely because they are Tongan. Simple. I don't care who's rule it is.

Get nothing back?!  Have you seen the Fijian world cup squad?  Look at the teams they play for.  Glasgow, Bordeaux, Biarritz, Harlequins, Racing 92, Northampton, Clermont, La Rochelle, Castres, Lyon, Stade Francais, etc.  They're some of the biggest hitters in European Rugby.  Some of that Fiji Squad, particularly the ones in France, will be earning more than a large proportion of the players in Wales for example.  They're getting plenty!

I do understand the sentiment about allowing players to play for their nation of origin.  But I think if you let the PIs do it then you have to extend it to everyone.  You have to allow Aki to represent NZ if there was a call for it; Parisse to turn out for Argentina; half the Japan squad to run out for their original nations.  Why not?  A mate of mine is out in Oz.  He moved for work and lifestyle, a new start for the family, etc.  He's a half decent rugby player.  But if he played pro and got capped by Oz due to him being out there, being settled, being thankful for the opportunity.... what then?  I expect he'd want to play for Wales given the chance in the future.  So why couldn't he?  Why just the PI teams?

True, agree. I’d pointed out as part of it anyone should be able to play for their ‘home’ nation when they’re not selected by their adopted one. For one it would make a far better World Cup. We’d have Kaino, Fuimuina, Afoa, Luatua etc playing for Samoa now. Fekitoa, Piutau for Tonga. The thing would be littered with great players and far more interesting to watch. It’s criminal that players of that caliber are not at this tournament. Everybody wins.

I suppose you could argue there are now international teams bought and paid for and there are international teams nurtured by their home unions.

the beneficiaries of the bought and paid for squad doesn’t give one hoot that their squad is not entirely home grown.

The poorer unions have little method of retaining their best players or selecting the strongest squad due to this.

Ultimately it doesn’t really matter what we want, the era of professional rugby dictates those with money can buy a squad and that is the reality.

Poor babies.

I would be in favour of players stating two countries they chose and allowing them to swap alligences from country A to country B once as long as it was
1. Before 25 years old
2. Two years of non international rugby before swap,
3. Has a connection to second country (residency, parent etc)
4. Less then 10 caps for first Nation.

Old Man wrote:I suppose you could argue there are now international teams bought and paid for and there are international teams nurtured by their home unions.

the beneficiaries of the bought and paid for squad doesn’t give one hoot that their squad is not entirely home grown.

The poorer unions have little method of retaining their best players or selecting the strongest squad due to this.

Ultimately it doesn’t really matter what we want, the era of professional rugby dictates those with money can buy a squad and that is the reality.

The only teams that come remotely close to having "bought a squad" are sone of the smaller nations.

Brendan wrote:I would be in favour of players stating two countries they chose and allowing them to swap alligences from country A to country B once as long as it was
1. Before 25 years old
2. Two years of non international rugby before swap,
3. Has a connection to second country (residency, parent etc)
4. Less then 10 caps for first Nation.

Yes something in that vicinity would be great and you just have to look at this tournament to know more flexibility is required. I think the World Cup should have the effect of celebrating ones ‘native’ country.

Tonga has 22 players at this tournament in other sides. Players are popping up everywhere entirely because of where the money is, or isn’t at the lower levels.

The World Cup should push for more ability to truly have the nations represented as best they can. Obviously established pro’s like Mako and Billy aren’t going to play for Tonga now, but they should be able to later, as a way of giving back to the country what it gave them...hundreds of years of being a Tongan.

For that reason I don’t agree with the two year wait. Guys like Mealamu, Kaino etc should be able to play for Samoa as soon as they ‘retire’ from AB duties. Perhaps same season you can’t play both sort of thing.

Mealamu was born and resided in New Zealand! Sorry, that one doesn’t seem right.

The motivation of NZ is to profit from PI'ers at their peak, then literally hand them back down to the representative sides when they're finished. Effectively entrenching a two tier system that means NZ stays at the top of the game by profiting from PI ability without having to do the hard work of any meaningful systemic issues facing PI'er society and rugby culture at large. The knock on effect is denying PI'ers the big money in Japan and England and France, all for the benefit of NZ domestic and international rugby, while losing nothing monetarily. Pretty sinister, really.

Would be interesting to see what would happen if/when a PI'er in their early 20s opted to play test rugby for Tonga/Samoa/Fiji while they had a Super Rugby contract. How their career path might change. If their value drops, their opportunities lessen. So, effectively, players are still prevented from playing for the PIs. They don't have long test careers. They don't develop teams in 4, 8, 12 year cycles. No. Alll you're getting is PIs playing for the promise of an AB cap, maybe getting one, maybe not, depending on whether they make the grade - and then, eventually, after perhaps getting the odd cap here and there, having to wait to eventually turn out for the PIs in their late 20s at best. You can guarantee that if this law came in to play, NZ would probably be cynical across the board - club/domestic caps and contracts, and then again with how they cap players if there's a 'cooling off' period in order to qualify for the PIs. Far too many flaws in this plan to begin with, let alone how it's motivated primarily to keep NZ strong, and PI talent away from more profitable ventures elsewhere.

The 'drop down' eligibility is not a universal law that would suit any other country or situation - it's convoluted and made with the ABs in mind

It's also literally stupid saying Tonga have 22 players playing for other sides. They don't.

NZ is full of Scottish and Irish heritage players. Just look at them. You don't even need names like Cullen, Kirwan, McCaw, McAllister etc. You can 'see' it if you know what Scottish people typically looked like 200 years ago. Players like the Barretts. What does it all mean? Why is that any different? Because they became part of a different nation - that identity changed over time. As happens every moment of every day in the present world, with present players - every country has players who are a 'mix' to one degree or another. Have you heard the Russian full back speak? Matsushima, the Japanese winger? National, cultural, indeed even 'racial' identity isn't a static thing.

Tman is basically making racist remarks, and I'm not sure why the mods are letting him get away with it. The Islanders aren't any different to anyone else in terms of immigration. You can see their skin colour and names more clearly after they've moved? Great, good for you. That doesn't mean they're 'special cases' - that the fact you looked up something on Wikipedia (yeah...really...) about Faletau's first name, and then suddenly you 'know' he's longing to play for Tonga. Rather than the fact that - rightly so - he asked for his formal name to be used by the WRU, while his teammates still call him Toby, the name he's picked up while integrating in to Wales since a small (well, smallish) child. It's embarrassing - the internet is literally the only way you get away with saying sheet like you have. You don't know what you're on about, you come across as a bigot at the best of times, and now this faux-paternalism over PI'ers because you allegedly know some (doubt you're close tbh) is, literally, by the book racism.

It's demeaning, derogatory, and dismissive to say 'there are 22 Tongans playing for other teams', as if one facet of national identity overrides all overs - but only if you're an Islander.

Honestly, this is disgusting and racist and pathetic and - still - it's all about you, personally, deriving personal superiority through the ABs over the rest of the world. As the media is wont to do - make people believe they're part of something, even if you, personally, contribute nothing. Weird and sad.

It will never happen, fortunately. Can't make up the rules as you go along in such a drastic way. The changing face of nationality in light of globalism should be reflected in the rules - but that might mean tightening, rather than loosening, them, as we've seen with the 5 year residency rule.

Fiji is 1000 miles away from NZ. It's really not that much different moving to NZ than it is to the south of France.

The Oracle wrote:Mealamu was born and resided in New Zealand! Sorry, that one doesn’t seem right.

Many of the current Samoan and Tongan squad members were born in NZ. That is my point about PI players being unique. Samoans are generally second or third generation in NZ. England are what? A thousand years English? Many still identify with Samoa, in NZ. They still speak Samoan. They have Samoan churches in Auckland. It’s a point of difference, by your comment, you don’t really identify with. It’s not that black and white.

miaow wrote:The motivation of NZ is to profit from PI'ers at their peak, then literally hand them back down to the representative sides when they're finished. Effectively entrenching a two tier system that means NZ stays at the top of the game by profiting from PI ability without having to do the hard work of any meaningful systemic issues facing PI'er society and rugby culture at large. The knock on effect is denying PI'ers the big money in Japan and England and France, all for the benefit of NZ domestic and international rugby, while losing nothing monetarily. Pretty sinister, really.

Would be interesting to see what would happen if/when a PI'er in their early 20s opted to play test rugby for Tonga/Samoa/Fiji while they had a Super Rugby contract. How their career path might change. If their value drops, their opportunities lessen. So, effectively, players are still prevented from playing for the PIs. They don't have long test careers. They don't develop teams in 4, 8, 12 year cycles. No. Alll you're getting is PIs playing for the promise of an AB cap, maybe getting one, maybe not, depending on whether they make the grade - and then, eventually, after perhaps getting the odd cap here and there, having to wait to eventually turn out for the PIs in their late 20s at best. You can guarantee that if this law came in to play, NZ would probably be cynical across the board - club/domestic caps and contracts, and then again with how they cap players if there's a 'cooling off' period in order to qualify for the PIs. Far too many flaws in this plan to begin with, let alone how it's motivated primarily to keep NZ strong, and PI talent away from more profitable ventures elsewhere.

The 'drop down' eligibility is not a universal law that would suit any other country or situation - it's convoluted and made with the ABs in mind

It's also literally stupid saying Tonga have 22 players playing for other sides. They don't.

NZ is full of Scottish and Irish heritage players. Just look at them. You don't even need names like Cullen, Kirwan, McCaw, McAllister etc. You can 'see' it if you know what Scottish people typically looked like 200 years ago. Players like the Barretts. What does it all mean? Why is that any different? Because they became part of a different nation - that identity changed over time. As happens every moment of every day in the present world, with present players - every country has players who are a 'mix' to one degree or another. Have you heard the Russian full back speak? Matsushima, the Japanese winger? National, cultural, indeed even 'racial' identity isn't a static thing.

Tman is basically making racist remarks, and I'm not sure why the mods are letting him get away with it. The Islanders aren't any different to anyone else in terms of immigration. You can see their skin colour and names more clearly after they've moved? Great, good for you. That doesn't mean they're 'special cases' - that the fact you looked up something on Wikipedia (yeah...really...) about Faletau's first name, and then suddenly you 'know' he's longing to play for Tonga. Rather than the fact that - rightly so - he asked for his formal name to be used by the WRU, while his teammates still call him Toby, the name he's picked up while integrating in to Wales since a small (well, smallish) child. It's embarrassing - the internet is literally the only way you get away with saying sheet like you have. You don't know what you're on about, you come across as a bigot at the best of times, and now this faux-paternalism over PI'ers because you allegedly know some (doubt you're close tbh) is, literally, by the book racism.

It's demeaning, derogatory, and dismissive to say 'there are 22 Tongans playing for other teams', as if one facet of national identity overrides all overs - but only if you're an Islander.

Honestly, this is disgusting and racist and pathetic and - still - it's all about you, personally, deriving personal superiority through the ABs over the rest of the world. As the media is wont to do - make people believe they're part of something, even if you, personally, contribute nothing. Weird and sad.

It will never happen, fortunately. Can't make up the rules as you go along in such a drastic way. The changing face of nationality in light of globalism should be reflected in the rules - but that might mean tightening, rather than loosening, them, as we've seen with the 5 year residency rule.

Fiji is 1000 miles away from NZ. It's really not that much different moving to NZ than it is to the south of France.

Again, a load of rubbish. And there are 22 Tongans playing for other countries. Reason that’s a valid point is the population of Tonga compared to other major playing nations is tiny, so their talent is spread that much wider. How many Welsh born playing for others in this tournament? If it’s five I’d be surprised.

Keep your racist comments to yourself wh3n you know nothing about what your talking about. An academic only view is an ignorant one.

Taylorman wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Mealamu was born and resided in New Zealand! Sorry, that one doesn’t seem right.

Many of the current Samoan and Tongan squad members were born in NZ. That is my point about PI players being unique. Samoans are generally second or third generation in NZ. England are what? A thousand years English? Many still identify with Samoa, in NZ. They still speak Samoan. They have Samoan churches in Auckland. It’s a point of difference, by your comment, you don’t really identify with. It’s not that black and white.

What about Kiwis that are descended from English ‘settlers’ in NZ? You’d have to extend that to them too, and allow ex All Blacks the chance to represent their English roots in the twilight of their careers, should they wish. That’s not black and white either. Or the big Welsh settlement in Patagonia where whole villages still speak Welsh. Or the Irish in America. Plenty of non ‘black and white’ stuff has gone on over time.

The annoying thing is that you often finish your posts with a quick barb about people not understanding or having empathy. Again, part of your narrative about the big bad NH. It’s like you think we don’t have culture here, don’t have tradition, don’t have community or religion, don’t have empathy. But we do. You seem to point at the NH as being ignorant of the PIs, but in thinking we don’t have all of the above I do wonder whether it is you who is ignorant of things outside the PIs?

The Oracle wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Mealamu was born and resided in New Zealand! Sorry, that one doesn’t seem right.

Many of the current Samoan and Tongan squad members were born in NZ. That is my point about PI players being unique. Samoans are generally second or third generation in NZ. England are what? A thousand years English? Many still identify with Samoa, in NZ. They still speak Samoan. They have Samoan churches in Auckland. It’s a point of difference, by your comment, you don’t really identify with. It’s not that black and white.

What about Kiwis that are descended from English ‘settlers’ in NZ. You’d have to extend that to them too, and allow ex All Blacks the chance to represent their English roots in the twilight of their careers, should they wish. That’s not black and white either. Or the big Welsh settlement in Patagonia where whole villages still speak Welsh. Or the Irish in America. Plenty of non ‘black and white’ stuff has gone on over time.

The annoying thing is that you often finish your posts with a quick barb about people not understanding or having empathy. Again, part of your narrative about the big bad NH. It’s like you think we don’t have culture here, don’t have tradition, don’t have community or religion, don’t have empathy. But we do. You seem to point at the NH as being ignorant of the PIs, but in thinking we don’t have all of the above I do wonder whether it is you who is ignorant of things outside the PIs?

Yes I agree that’s not black or white but that migratory episode has been dealt with. There is a commonality between ‘Europeans’ that have existed now for hundreds of years. For the Islands, it’s largely been since the 80’s. They ‘miss home’ their parents and extended family are still from there. They have a different culture, language, diet even.

Europeans in NZ don’t ‘miss’ their tenth or eleventh generation English ancestors. They don’t sit around and tell stories about the old chimney sweepers in the family tree, stereotyping comment intended.

They speak the same language. NZers have made NZ their home, there is nowhere else to ‘miss’. Pacific Islanders still have that longing to be be Pacific Islanders, to be Samoan, it’s just a better standard of living for some is why they move.

Yes their rugby players move for rugby but relative to their populations the numbers are huge and they are left being never fully represented by their best players. The All Blacks are just as ‘guilty’ of that but the difference there is there is a large community of PIs already making NZ their home. So they are split.

I can guarantee you without even knowing the facts that the most common reason Pacific Islanders are settled in the UK are because of rugby. If not for rugby, or League, you simply wouldn’t have them in the numbers there are.

Taylorman wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Mealamu was born and resided in New Zealand! Sorry, that one doesn’t seem right.

Many of the current Samoan and Tongan squad members were born in NZ. That is my point about PI players being unique. Samoans are generally second or third generation in NZ. England are what? A thousand years English? Many still identify with Samoa, in NZ. They still speak Samoan. They have Samoan churches in Auckland. It’s a point of difference, by your comment, you don’t really identify with. It’s not that black and white.

They're not unique. They're just one example of mass immigration. Look at the US and how immigration impacts their team. That fluidity is only going to grow and grow in the future, for every nation. You're just utterly blinkered and, frankly, show no understanding beyond the end of your nose to understand that. Actually look at and listen to the players playing in this world cup and you'll see that.

You don't make the law changes to suit a specific situation, particularly when it's designed to primarily benefit NZ. You create laws that are universal, and of course there are those that slip through the gaps, and those who suffer from it. But so be it. That's why you need rules, so everyone is on a level playing field as much as possible.

World Rugby isn't a social justice movement.

Look at the Tongans in Rugby League. The reality is, with a bit of support - that WR is giving - and external help and expertise, the PIs could become some ofo the best nations in the world, particularly if/when using players of PI heritage born and raised in NZ. With the system the Kiwis are proposing, that will literally never happen. It would trap PIers in to always being Kiwi/Ozzie cast offs.

Don't pretend this is altruism. It's not. It's quite the opposite.

Taylorman wrote:Again, a load of rubbish. And there are 22 Tongans playing for other countries. Reason that’s a valid point is the population of Tonga compared to other major playing nations is tiny, so their talent is spread that much wider. How many Welsh born playing for others in this tournament? If it’s five I’d be surprised.

Keep your racist comments to yourself wh3n you know nothing about what your talking about. An academic only view is an ignorant one.

It's not rubbish, and it's not academic.

The Vunipola brothers - no doubt, men you'd call 'Tongan' - were born in NZ and Australia respecively, to Tongan parents. They grew up in Wales. They play for England, because of the education they were offered over the border.

Nationality is complex. You're not seeing the complexity because you're not trying to understand anything outside your frame of reality. Which is pretty consistent with everything you write on this site. It's racist at worst, ignorant and tiring at best.

miaow wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Again, a load of rubbish. And there are 22 Tongans playing for other countries. Reason that’s a valid point is the population of Tonga compared to other major playing nations is tiny, so their talent is spread that much wider. How many Welsh born playing for others in this tournament? If it’s five I’d be surprised.

Keep your racist comments to yourself wh3n you know nothing about what your talking about. An academic only view is an ignorant one.

It's not rubbish, and it's not academic.

The Vunipola brothers - no doubt, men you'd call 'Tongan' - were born in NZ and Australia respecively, to Tongan parents. They grew up in Wales. They play for England, because of the education they were offered over the border.

Nationality is complex. You're not seeing the complexity because you're not trying to understand anything outside your frame of reality. Which is pretty consistent with everything you write on this site. It's racist at worst, ignorant and tiring at best.

Above is EXACTLY why there is the problem. ignorants unwilling to under stand or even acknowledge there even is an issue. You hide behind the veil of racism. One rule for all, as long as it’s our rule. That’s for highlighting the ignorance that is out there is large numbers. The PI community won’t be knocking on your door for a contribution. For you already have their issues sorted.

You've genuinely been poisoned - by a combination of things, no doubt. It's not an 'us v them' situation. Who do you think creates the laws? England? Or this faceless, evil, NH round table? You misunderstand how things actually work. Everything is a compromise - you don't seem to get that? Why?

I once had a girlfriend who was a bit like you - confused not getting your own way, and instead accepting compromise, as tyranny. I've seen it more commonly in 6 year old children.

Everything else is just bluster because, deep down, you know you're wrong. And if you let go of this false sense of superiority - based on hemispheres fgs - and used this to just discuss rugby (or stopped using it and just lived you life as you want to) you'd address whatever you're running away from and channeling in to second hand, vicarious achievement through your bigotry. Look, it's all pretty - you don't do what you've done for 2 years without this being some sort of issue for you, personally. I tried to be fair with you at the start but it's just got worse and worse. You don't even seem capable of listening, let alone seeing how and where you're wrong. It's not a racist card - you're literally being racist, you're literally calling PI'ers different. You really don't get it and it all stems from this weird, warped sense of superiority based on where you live. Sad, really, tragically sad. But it's ruining the forum. So give it a rest?

My goodness, but you love insulting people, don’t you?

Thought that was you, Biltong, going down in a blaze of glory? You can't post turds for 2 years then complain when people ask you to wipe yourself and clean up the mess.

Who’s biltong? Been asking that for a while now

Hi Bilt!

Good to see you did some soul searching since you've been away, then. Self actualisation is the goal of every body.

You are confused buddy boy, I have no idea what you are talking about.

That was a great joke, Biltong. Shame. Just enjoy it.

I know banned posters aren't allowed back, but, you know, several have come back (and gone again) over the years. It's all a bit nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

"Oh, sorry, errrr...NotBiltong. I'm...mis...taken..."

miaow wrote:You've genuinely been poisoned - by a combination of things, no doubt. It's not an 'us v them' situation. Who do you think creates the laws? England? Or this faceless, evil, NH round table? You misunderstand how things actually work. Everything is a compromise - you don't seem to get that? Why?

I once had a girlfriend who was a bit like you - confused not getting your own way, and instead accepting compromise, as tyranny. I've seen it more commonly in 6 year old children.

Everything else is just bluster because, deep down, you know you're wrong. And if you let go of this false sense of superiority - based on hemispheres fgs - and used this to just discuss rugby (or stopped using it and just lived you life as you want to) you'd address whatever you're running away from and channeling in to second hand, vicarious achievement through your bigotry. Look, it's all pretty - you don't do what you've done for 2 years without this being some sort of issue for you, personally. I tried to be fair with you at the start but it's just got worse and worse. You don't even seem capable of listening, let alone seeing how and where you're wrong. It's not a racist card - you're literally being racist, you're literally calling PI'ers different. You really don't get it and it all stems from this weird, warped sense of superiority based on where you live. Sad, really, tragically sad. But it's ruining the forum. So give it a rest?

Happy to, you’re the one doing the preaching, I’m just out for a better deal for PI rugby which has given so much to the game.

And I’m the racist? And they are different. They’re special. I get it pal. I get there are people like you out there upholding the problem.

So when you read about the PI plight, those messages are for people like you, where one day, you’ll get it.

But obviously not today.

It's not a better deal. It would lock the Islands in to being feeder teams, breeding grounds, and a retirement home for the colonist All Blacks.

Tongan Rugby League and Fiji 7s show there's so much more the Island rugby than that.

'Better deal'. Yeah...na...

.

He must have been a serious a hole?

No, just the usual anti SH sentiment, something they say doesn’t happen here.

Old Man wrote:He must have been a serious a hole?

I liked him.

I liked him.

He’s still around, ever passionate about Bok rugby. Need more of them.

I thought Biltong was a good poster too, and a decent mod. He wasn't keen on the welsh for sure, but back then this place was a riot with anti-welsh sentiment very commonplace (yep more-so than it is now!).

Old Man I thought you were him too. Are you from Pretoria, if you don't mind me asking?

English - everybody hates us
Australians - everybody ain't fair to us
NZ - nobody don't respect us enough
Wales - everybody's gotta an Anti-Welsh chip on their shoulder

There's a pattern here and .... well I think to get some good results in the next few weeks and a few more refs on our side, I'm gonna have to join in:

Everybody Ain't in Love with us no more, Bruv!

mikey_dragon wrote:I thought Biltong was a good poster too, and a decent mod. He wasn't keen on the welsh for sure, but back then this place was a riot with anti-welsh sentiment very commonplace (yep more-so than it is now!).

Old Man I thought you were him too. Are you from Pretoria, if you don't mind me asking?

Bloemfontein

I would assume that Afrikaans is your first language then, which is why you may appear to 'sound' alike.

If you're from Bloemfontein then you should give your perspective on the Cheetahs in the Pro14. They had another good win tonight.

Yeah good start, happy to have Ruan Pienaar at the Cheetahs,I think his influence and calm head makes a huge difference., I think they have two more home games before they go on tour.

Next week is a big game though

The Oracle wrote:

Old Man wrote:He must have been a serious a hole?

I liked him.

Me too. He is a great guy.
Never had a problem with him whatsoever. He did express his frustration at all the petty bickering from some on here which I thought was justified.
He sure knows his beans when it comes to rugby.

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I thought Biltong was a good poster too, and a decent mod. He wasn't keen on the welsh for sure, but back then this place was a riot with anti-welsh sentiment very commonplace (yep more-so than it is now!).

Old Man I thought you were him too. Are you from Pretoria, if you don't mind me asking?

Bloemfontein

So you're not him. He moved to some acreage just south of Jo'burg. Chatted with him a few times over the phone. Top bloke.

Pal Joey wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I thought Biltong was a good poster too, and a decent mod. He wasn't keen on the welsh for sure, but back then this place was a riot with anti-welsh sentiment very commonplace (yep more-so than it is now!).

Old Man I thought you were him too. Are you from Pretoria, if you don't mind me asking?

Bloemfontein

So you're not him. He moved to some acreage just south of Jo'burg. Chatted with him a few times over the phone. Top bloke.

So what did happen to him? Just working on the acreage?

Old Man wrote:Yeah good start, happy to have Ruan Pienaar at the Cheetahs,I think his influence and calm head makes a huge difference., I think they have two more home games before they go on tour.

Next week is a big game though

I should have said over on the club forum . It doesn’t seem like they’ll lose at home this season that’s for sure. Ulster just got absolutely demolished. The pace the Cheetahs brought was unlike anything I’ve seen in the league. They were gash last year so I assume they’ve had more players sent down? Pienaar still looks class, I reckon he can play until age 40!

mikey_dragon wrote:

Pal Joey wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I thought Biltong was a good poster too, and a decent mod. He wasn't keen on the welsh for sure, but back then this place was a riot with anti-welsh sentiment very commonplace (yep more-so than it is now!).

Old Man I thought you were him too. Are you from Pretoria, if you don't mind me asking?

Bloemfontein

So you're not him. He moved to some acreage just south of Jo'burg. Chatted with him a few times over the phone. Top bloke.

So what did happen to him? Just working on the acreage?

Yeah, planting a few trees and raising lion cubs if I remember correctly.    He's still involved in his profession too I think.