England's Winter

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New Zealand

T20 Internationals

Friday November 1st - Christchurch
Sunday November 3rd - Wellington
Tuesday November 5th - Nelson
Friday November 8th - Napier
Sunday November 10th - Auckland

Squad
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex) captain
Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire)
Tom Banton (Somerset)
Sam Billings (Kent)
Pat Brown (Worcestershire)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Tom Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Lewis Gregory (Somerset)
Chris Jordan (Sussex)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Dawid Malan (Middlesex)
Matt Parkinson (Lancashire)
Adil Rashid (Yorkshire)
James Vince (Hampshire)


Tests

Wednesday November 20th - Tauranga
Thursday November 28th - Hamilton

Squad
Joe Root (Yorkshire) captain
Jofra Archer (Sussex)
Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)
Rory Burns (Surrey)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Zak Crawley (Kent)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Jack Leach (Somerset)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Matthew Parkinson (Lancashire)
Ollie Pope (Surrey)
Dominic Sibley (Warwickshire)
Ben Stokes (Durham)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)



South Africa

Tests

Thursday 26th December - Centurion
Friday January 3rd - Cape Town
Thursday January 16th - Port Elizabeth
Friday January 24th - Johannesburg

Squad
TBC


ODI
Tuesday 4th February - Cape Town
Friday 7th February - Durban
Sunday 9th February - Johannesburg

Squad
TBC



T20 Internationals

Wednesday 12th February - East London
Friday 14th February - Durban
Sunday 16th February - Centurion


Sri Lanka

March 7th - Warm up 1, Katunayake (3 day)
March 12th - Warm up 2, Colombo (3 day)
March 19th - 1st Test, Galle
March 27th - 2nd Test, Colombo

Rory Burns not only out of tomorrow, he’s out of the series with ankle ligament damage.

Yikes

Well that’s just spiffing.

Jofra also didn’t train today - football or cricket - so I reckon he’s definitely out tomorrow.

Just watched the video of Burns injury - non contact (as England’s football is), so just looks like a freak accident. Such a shame as he was just starting to establish himself. Huge opportunity for Crawley - will be an absolute shambles if they open with Denly, get Pope in and keep Bairstow.

guildfordbat wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Because things hadn't got worse for roughly 12 hours, Rory Burns has now gotten injured warming up playing football.

Ominously had to be carried back to the changing rooms, and 5 minutes later Zak Crawley came out for a long net.

Pope was clobbered yesterday by Parkinson playing football. Fortunately he seems ok for the Test although there were initial concerns about him too. You couldn't make it up! 

Meanwhile, looking at Carlos' likely side, I would expect Sibley - assuming fit enough - to make the cut ahead of Bairstow and Crawley.

I thought that Sibley was one of the guys still ill. Hopefully he's recovered in time.

Such a shame for Burns to be ruled out just as he starts establishing himself.

Duty281 wrote:

Pitch expected to be pretty flat for the duration of the test. That means bat if you win the toss, Joe!

But if theres a touch of green ...

It's not a shame Burns is ruled out. He's out thru sheer stupidity. You would think England would have learned their lesson when Bairstow was hurt playing football a while back.

Football should be banned for the England players. You don't see the England footballers practising slip catching before a match. I cringe when I see the kick abouts before Tests at Lord's every year.

It’s non contact. You can’t ban them from running. The England footballers doing slip catching would be an accurate comparison if slip catching was an enjoyable form of aerobic exercise!

Apparently some Liverpool soccer chap got injured in their warm up before a game today. Definitely ban it. Warm up running with scissors instead.

JDizzle wrote:It’s non contact. You can’t ban them from running. The England footballers doing slip catching would be an accurate comparison if slip catching was an enjoyable form of aerobic exercise!

Dizzle: You've got it half-right with non contact. It's non sensical.

England win the toss and bat first. Sensible.

Trouble is - however much football is meant to be non contact, it often isn't. Press reports refer to Pope having ''a cut and bruised ankle after being taken out by a bad tackle from Parkinson on New Year's Day''. 

Sure, injuries can happen with any type of training. However, it seems unrealistic and asking for trouble to expect naturally competive sportsmen to play a different naturally physical game in a non competitive and non physical manner. 

Giles apparently banned football kickabouts for his players when in charge at Lancs and Warks. Appears inevitable that the same will happen with England and the players have surely brought it on themselves.

JDizzle wrote:It’s non contact. You can’t ban them from running. The England footballers doing slip catching would be an accurate comparison if slip catching was an enjoyable form of aerobic exercise!

They should just do cricket - it's not like anybody's ever been hurt in the ne...ah.

They should all just do a crossword puzzle. With a cup of tea

I suppose archery and jousting would be deemed too dangerous for a warm-up?

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

JDizzle wrote:It’s non contact. You can’t ban them from running. The England footballers doing slip catching would be an accurate comparison if slip catching was an enjoyable form of aerobic exercise!

They should just do cricket - it's not like anybody's ever been hurt in the ne...ah.

They should all just do a crossword puzzle. With a cup of tea

It's risk and reward though. Players go in the nets to try and get better even though you may take a whack. Football does little - if anything - for their cricket.

I'll throw in a Gooselike comment (ie no research and no facts to support it  ) - the fitter that players get these days, the more injury prone they become.

guildfordbat wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

JDizzle wrote:It’s non contact. You can’t ban them from running. The England footballers doing slip catching would be an accurate comparison if slip catching was an enjoyable form of aerobic exercise!

They should just do cricket - it's not like anybody's ever been hurt in the ne...ah.

They should all just do a crossword puzzle. With a cup of tea

It's risk and reward though. Players go in the nets to try and get better even though you may take a whack. Football does little - if anything - for their cricket.

I'll throw in a Gooselike comment (ie no research and no facts to support it  ) - the fitter that players get these days, the more injury prone they become.

So what you're saying is that England is lucky Mo Farah doesn't play cricket, Guildford?

No, I take your point. Shane Watson springs to mind. All those big muscles and he was always injured it seemed.

Smart bowling and a good catch. Lovely start from Philander.

Duty281 wrote:Smart bowling and a good catch. Lovely start from Philander.

Yep, particularly liked the catch from De man sausage*. Unlike a couple of times in the first Test,  thought he was right to go across van der Dussen at first slip - the ball was dipping and may not have carried. More importantly than anything else, he got it!

* Edit: just seen what they did there! 

Duty281 wrote:Smart bowling and a good catch. Lovely start from Philander.

Looking forward to seeing him at Taunton this summer

Pal Joey wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

JDizzle wrote:It’s non contact. You can’t ban them from running. The England footballers doing slip catching would be an accurate comparison if slip catching was an enjoyable form of aerobic exercise!

They should just do cricket - it's not like anybody's ever been hurt in the ne...ah.

They should all just do a crossword puzzle. With a cup of tea

It's risk and reward though. Players go in the nets to try and get better even though you may take a whack. Football does little - if anything - for their cricket.

I'll throw in a Gooselike comment (ie no research and no facts to support it  ) - the fitter that players get these days, the more injury prone they become.

So what you're saying is that England is lucky Mo Farah doesn't play cricket, Guildford?

No, I take your point. Shane Watson springs to mind. All those big muscles and he was always injured it seemed.

Joey - not sure how far you go back but I don't remember - and I'm pretty sure Sir Fred and Alfie would support me here - Raymond Illingworth playing football on Australian soil during the ' 70/71 Ashes tour when he captained England to a superb series win. Or at any other time or place for that matter!

Ok and more seriously, fielding - and the fitness needed for it - is now a far more important part of the game than then and rightly so. However, as usual for me, it's a question of balance - games of footy shortly before a Test with the inevitable associated risks seems too far.

Theres a fair few players get injured in nets too of course, I doubt Archers elbow was sore from goalkeeping.

Cant believe England batted first and handed Philander the golden opportunity he needed to do what he does

Jokes aside this is a massive test in both senses for Sibley now. An opportunity to make a statement innings when its really needed, but also the chance to have the same nagging doubts heightened if he gets out to the new ball as he has every test innings to date. I guess he will get the third test whatever with Burns out but he really could do with making a score to setlle him in and so far seems to be doing ok.

I'm not that fussed about them playing a bit of kick about ...bit unlucky to get a nasty injury ; but given they aren't having much luck with injuries/illnesses on this trip maybe it was tempting fate...
Still players get injured in pre-match fielding warm ups too. Bad luck for Burns though.

Glad to see they've batted first today - looks a good pitch. Should be able to put up a decent score - the trick will be to make it a seriously good one ; because I have a hunch this SA side might struggle a bit if put under scoreboard pressure. For all their spirited first match effort they are fielding some inexperienced players and lacking the ballast their sides used to have with run machines like Smith , Kallis and Amla. Even if the England attack lacks real pace this time they do have a bit of variety - and should all be fitter and better tuned.

Decent start for England - Crawley not so much : here is Nortje who bowled pretty well at Centurion...

Question : has England ever previously fielded a team with not only two Joes but two Doms ?

Afro wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Smart bowling and a good catch. Lovely start from Philander.

Looking forward to seeing him at Taunton this summer

His arrival might mean Somerset actually produce a cricket pitch once in a while!

Just a little before my time, Guildford... but I was around if you know what I mean. I do remember the little jingle they had before the '74 series. There's are poor quality version of it somewhere on youtube.

Totally agree with you about football training before cricket matches. It's simply asking for trouble given the natural competitive nature of sportsmen today. Then again; I suppose one could trip over a cricket ball or get plowed down by that fast moving camera mounted on the segway. There seems to be a lot more hazards on the field just prior to play today. It's like a circus out there sometimes!

Something I've never thought deeply about (until Joe Root's last tour here where he ended up on a drip in hospital) is the combined effects of severe physical and psychological stress under extreme conditions -  in addition to all the other off-field pressure from the media and fans, food, etc.  

As if the game isn't difficult enough under relatively normal or more benign conditions!

At least there isn't any smoke from bush fires in SA !

Haven't actually caught the highlights from Sydney today , PJ (working all day) but apparently they didn't get too much interference ? It was pretty smokey in Melbourne this afternoon...

Bit surprised SA didn't persist with Maharaja a bit longer. Sibley looks much more comfortable facing Pretorius . Guess its a newish ball still , but...

2 down now as Sibley goes caught behind to Rabada. Sibley does appear to be improving - less dependent now on leg side runs and generally looking more comfortable at the crease - but not as quickly as he or we would like and weaknessess still apparent.

Could really do with Denly getting a meaningful score. Just been looking at his Test stats - well known he hasn't got a ton at this level but I hadn't appreciated he has reached double figures in all but 3 of his 22 innings so far. Frustrating.

Feels like a missed opportunity for Sibley - had seen off the new ball, within 15 minutes of lunch...he'd got himself set on what appears a good batting day. Not throwing him to the dogs yet...but he does need a score soon just to stave them off a bit longer

Good patient session of test cricket. Rabada really nailing his line and length in his second spell and a crucial breakthrough before the interval was his reward.

67/2 - in the balance, but often the case from here is England lose a couple more quick wickets from this position and everything goes south rapidly.

guildfordbat wrote:2 down now as Sibley goes caught behind to Rabada. Sibley does appear to be improving - less dependent now on leg side runs and generally looking more comfortable at the crease - but not as quickly as he or we would like and weaknessess still apparent.

Could really do with Denly getting a meaningful score. Just been looking at his Test stats - well known he hasn't got a ton at this level but I hadn't appreciated he has reached double figures in all but 3 of his 22 innings so far. Frustrating.

..and this was his highest score to date just 34. With Burs off the tour hes pretty much guaranteed the next test but if he still isnt making runs it may leave a difficult decision for Sri Lanka...doubly so if Burns isnt fit for those games too. Crawley really shouldnt be in the mix, hes averaging 30 at county level and really its too early to be relying in him in a struggling side. 


Things not looking good for England this morning, a bad period of test results is turning into an early 90's debacle. I had high hopes for this tour against a relatively weak SA but the wheels look well and truly off. It may be early to be calling this test result, but someones going to have to do something big now to put them back on track. I just dont have the faith that England have the quality or confidence to do that at the moment.

Currently watching on Sky, Root in converation on with Atherton and Hussain, recorded a day or two ago. Root looks dreadful. So gaunt in the face. Hopefully can be explained solely by the recent sickness bug and not stress of the captaincy.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Afro wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Smart bowling and a good catch. Lovely start from Philander.

Looking forward to seeing him at Taunton this summer

His arrival might mean Somerset actually produce a cricket pitch once in a while!

You mean produce a pitch that suits other teams who can't play spin, rather than suit themselves.

Might also help on our trip to The Oval to have someone who can bowl on a road

Sibley does need to start making some scores, I'd give him an extended try regardless but it is highlighting the mistakes made during the summer with Roy; that was the perfect opportunity to give Dom a start in home conditions instead of an overseas tour where it's always hard as a debutant.

Duty281 wrote:Good patient session of test cricket. Rabada really nailing his line and length in his second spell and a crucial breakthrough before the interval was his reward.

67/2 - in the balance, but often the case from here is England lose a couple more quick wickets from this position and everything goes south rapidly.

I would definitely give the session to South Africa. The hosts have both our openers back in the hutch and have conceded less than 2.5 an over despite Root winning the toss and batting on what has been described more than once as 'a featherbed'. 

Atherton has spoken about our inexperience and given the batsmen 'some slack'. Whilst that's understandable and fair, all that matters to South Africa is winning this Test and at this admittedly early stage they're ahead for me.

Denly now 46 balls without a run

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Denly now 46 balls without a run

First day of a test match I have no problem with that as long as he stays in. Too often in the last few years we've had players who would try too hard to score rather than just keep their wicket. Also, Root's been going pretty well at the other end, so the score board generally is moving forwards

Brilliant bit of bowling from Nortje to Root. Valuable wicket. Really like what I’ve seen from Nortje so far in this series.

Duty281 wrote:Brilliant bit of bowling from Nortje to Root. Valuable wicket. Really like what I’ve seen from Nortje so far in this series.

Yes, I mentioned Nortje as a MotM contender in the first Test.

He should have had Root's wicket earlier in that over. De Kock moved to his right for the chance and then stopped, almost certainly putting off van der Dussen who had to go to his left (as Olly has said before - see, I listen to you,mate , slips shouldn't normally have to do that) and parried it. Having praised De Kock for the catch of Crawley today, he gets stick for that albeit instantly redeemed when Root gave him a sitter which bobbed up offf the glove. Fine fast bowling from Nortje and to his credit he wasn't put off by the missed chance.

Currently 111/3 and the hosts further ahead in my book.

guildfordbat wrote:

Atherton has spoken about our inexperience and given the batsmen 'some slack'. Whilst that's understandable and fair, all that matters to South Africa is winning this Test and at this admittedly early stage they're ahead for me.

I suspect its just bringing back painful memories of his time being in charge of teams every bit as bad as this one, and the abuse he got. 

109/3 isnt a disaster yet, but its an all too familiar bleed. Incredible that once again it looks like Denly whos holding things together ...hes frankly a cricketer he didnt earn a spot in the side, but has managed to do enough to retain it as much through others failures as his own abilities. 12 tests in averaging a shade over 30 is actually as good as anyones done batting top 3 for England bar Burns in a long time...but hes still not had a real defining innings (no centuries) and looks pretty limited. 

Looking through this side theres Sibley who did demand a call up through sheer weight of runs in the CC but does look out of his depth in tests, Crawley who just isnt ready at all, Denly whos performing as well as can be expected but is pretty average, Root who is struggling for form struggling as a capatin and as noted probably still weakened form the bug too, then Stokes who whilst always dangerous isnt reliable and has outside pressures (as always) on top of a niggling injury, Buttler who isnt a great keeper and seems to have lost the golden form with the bat he had after his recall, Pope whos definitely earned another shot but yet to do much at test level, Curran whos a solid enough all rounder but not spectacular talent, Bess another pretty average cricketer whos not earned his place and is likely not fully match sharp coming in from the cold, then Broad and Anderson who are both at the tail end of incredible careers..and Andersons not been living up to that status for a while ( after the India 2018 series hes only taken 13 tests wickets at 36) 

All in its really a bit of a rag bag side. Even if they had full confidence and a positive buzz around theres a number of place fillers, when you add in the effects of the illlness on their preparation and quite possibly physical fitness of some members Id be very surprised to see them win here. 

there some mitigating factors and some slack that can be cut, but it has to be accepted that England just aren't very good.

Another start, another wicket. Chip, chip away. Just poor defence by Denly against a fairly innocuous delivery.

Everyone sounds very optimistic I see

Yes , SA on top - disciplined bowling. Sticking to a plan. But early yet. A partnership could yet turn things around.

You could pick the England batting apart (opposition bowlers have been doing so a bit lately) but in truth several of them are too new to really make much of a judgement. If you want to try new talent you have to show a bit of patience...though three very raw players in the top six is probably overdoing it...

Thought Sibley did look a bit more at home today - though he's again gone just when he'd done the hard work : disappointing. And then Root...and just now Denly , also gone in the thirties , alas. Thirties don't win you Test Matches.

If Pope really does have what it takes for this level now would be a good time to demonstrate it ! 127/4 is not the score they wanted half way through the day. Still looks to me they are struggling with the switch in philosophy from attack at all costs to slow and steady. Going to take time I think.

dummy_half wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Denly now 46 balls without a run

First day of a test match I have no problem with that as long as he stays in. Too often in the last few years we've had players who would try too hard to score rather than just keep their wicket. Also, Root's been going pretty well at the other end, so the score board generally is moving forwards

This is going to look better with hindsight (sorry I was out getting lunch!) - but there's a difference between digging in through a spell of really good bowling and just building unnecessary pressure through lack of intent. Denly's gone a bit too Nick Compton in that innings, just allowed Maharaj to bowl at him, the ball isn't turning, and now England are really behind as he's out to a bang average delivery.

Whilst there is obviously no need to be Jason Roy-esque England, just sitting in and waiting for one to get you out isn't the way to go either. It's a very fine balance to strike!!

alfie wrote:Everyone sounds very optimistic I see

Yes , SA on top - disciplined bowling. Sticking to a plan.  But early yet.  A partnership could yet turn things around.

You could pick the England batting apart (opposition bowlers have been doing so a bit lately) but in truth several of them are too new to really make much of a judgement. If you want to try new talent you have to show a bit of patience...though three very raw players in the top six is probably overdoing it...

Thought Sibley did look a bit more at home today - though he's again gone just when he'd done the hard work : disappointing. And then Root...and just now Denly , also gone in the thirties , alas.  Thirties don't win you Test Matches.

If Pope really does have what it takes for this level now would be a good time to demonstrate it ! 127/4 is not the score they wanted half way through the day. Still looks to me they are struggling with the switch in philosophy from attack at all costs to slow and steady.  Going to take time I think.

I think the point is at least three of the players in this side, arguably four, arent just too early in their test careers to judge but are genuinely just not good enough and thats without bringing Buttler into the debate. Crawley could go on to be, but hes a couple of years and some significant county runs away from being ready to be capped. Judging the side on what they are now, they arent very good. I doubt Denly or Bess would ever be good test players, and Sibley has some serious detractors despite his county runs which seem to have been proven largely correct so far.

I dont thinks its a switch in philosophy that causing problems. Denly and Sibley are natural defenders, Crawley very much a "proper" opener by instinct too... and Root has been able to value his wicket and bat long during his career. Burns too isnt a run chaser, they top order players they have should be comfortable enough in valuing their wickets. Stokes downwards I can more accept that as a reasoning that they dont feel comfortable being in their shells, but to be 4 down for small change on a good batting pitch I dont think can be blamed on the philosophy so much as the quality and lack of confidence the side has.

England are a poor side. The victories over India and Sri Lanka seem a long way back now and papered over issues, the injuries and illness are exposing a lack of depth to their squad. This is a bit of a makeshift SA side in a state of flux with its own off field problems injuries and retirements to contend with, but they look higher in quality and mentally tougher than England so far in the series.

Denly isn't a natural defender at all, he's naturally a free flowing batsmen.

It's all in whether you go on though , isn't it Olly ? Today Steve Smith took thirty nine balls to get off the mark against NZ...but when he did he went on with it (if not as far as he was doing in the northern summer !)
Unfortunately Denly is , I suspect , at his limits with the sort of performance we've been seeing from him lately. And all credit to him as making the most of your abilities is laudable - and valuable to a struggling side. But it underlines one of England's problems at the moment : they have Root (struggling at present for one reason or another) and Stokes. And after that , not much firepower.
If they can grind out a first day then the late order might turn a par score into a good one...but at the moment they are failing to either stick in long enough or really take on the bowlers. Going to be hard to get anything imposing unless someone plays a blinder...

That said , SA are bowling rather well .

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Denly now 46 balls without a run

First day of a test match I have no problem with that as long as he stays in. Too often in the last few years we've had players who would try too hard to score rather than just keep their wicket. Also, Root's been going pretty well at the other end, so the score board generally is moving forwards

This is going to look better with hindsight (sorry I was out getting lunch!) - but there's a difference between digging in through a spell of really good bowling and just building unnecessary pressure through lack of intent. Denly's gone a bit too Nick Compton in that innings, just allowed Maharaj to bowl at him, the ball isn't turning, and now England are really behind as he's out to a bang average delivery.

Whilst there is obviously no need to be Jason Roy-esque England, just sitting in and waiting for one to get you out isn't the way to go either. It's a very fine balance to strike!!

Often the way with Denly at test level. He makes a good start, the field goes more defensive and then he gets bogged down, struggles to score/rotate the strike and then’s he out for a pretty 30/40.

Interestingly the bookies have England at 10/11 to win in play, and South Africa at 11/10. Maybe more even than we see it, but I'd tend to go along with the thought the hosts are on top here so far...

Suppose it isn't all that clear yet...four down can still yield a good score - and of course however "good" the pitch looks for batting the old adage about waiting until both teams have batted is often apposite .
But yes I'd rather be in the home team's shoes at present. Bookies are cautious chaps...

Last session will perhaps give us a better idea.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Interestingly the bookies have England at 10/11 to win in play, and South Africa at 11/10. Maybe more even than we see it, but I'd tend to go along with the thought the hosts are on top here so far...

Id agree, thats partly based on me just not having any faith in England since the West Indies tour though. I've backed them too many times and been burnt!

By the way I also think some of the comments about what a mediocre team SA have are a bit inaccurate . Their batting looks workmanlike at best , true. But the attack they've put out ain't too shabby : Philander and Rabada both - deservedly - high in the rankings ; Maharaj a better spinner than anything England have got ; and the new fellow Nortje looks a real prospect...SA seem to turn out pace men rather regularly. Even Pretorius can do a job keeping things tight.
They will miss Philander when he goes after this series !