Wales RWC 2019 thread Number II

[maestegmafia]

First topic message reminder :

WALES’ 2019 RWC SQUAD:

Forwards: Jake Ball, Adam Beard, Rhys Carre, James Davies, Elliot Dee, Ryan Elias, Tomas Francis, Cory Hill, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Dillon Lewis, Ross Moriarty, Josh Navidi, Ken Owens, Aaron Shingler, Nicky Smith, Justin Tipuric, Aaron Wainwright.

Backs: Josh Adams, Hallam Amos, Dan Biggar, Aled Davies, Gareth Davies, Jonathan Davies, Leigh Halfpenny, George North, Hadleigh Parkes, Rhys Patchell, Owen Watkin, Liam Williams, Tomos Williams.

Pool D

AUSTRALIA, WALES, GEORGIA, FIJI, URUGUAY

Match 1

Australia vs Fiji... Sapporo Dome... Saturday, September 21... 5.45am BST... (ITV)

Match 2

Wales vs Georgia... City of Toyota Stadium... Monday, September 23... 11.15am BST... (ITV)

Match 3

Fiji vs Uruguay... Kamaishi Recovery Memorial Stadium... Wednesday, September 25... 6.15am BST... (ITV 4)

Match 4

Georgia vs Uruguay... Kumagaya Rugby Stadium... Sunday, September 29... 6.15am BST... (ITV)

Match 5

Australia vs Wales... Tokyo Stadium... Sunday, September 29... 8.45am BST... (ITV)

Match 6

Georgia vs Fiji... Hanazono Rugby Stadium... Thursday, October 3... 6.15am BST... (ITV 4)

Match 7

Australia vs Uruguay... Oita Stadium... Saturday, October 5... 6.15am BST... (ITV)

Match 8

Wales vs Fiji... Oita Stadium... Wednesday, October 9... 10.45am BST... (ITV)

Match 9

Australia vs Georgia... Shizuoka Stadium Ecopa... Friday, October 11... 11.15am BST... (ITV 4)

Match 10

Wales vs Uruguay... Kumamoto Stadium... Sunday, October 13... 9.15am BST... (ITV)

[Guest]

Is Pivac one of the best international coaches of recent times Oracle?

When did I say best? I said those who make it to the top, which he has.

[Guest]

Rassie Erasmus, Nick Mallet both were Springboks who are good international coaches

True, but were Jake White, Peter DeVilliers, etc. top players?

[Old Man]

Jake White no, Pieter de Villiers I don’t know, he did play rugby, but it was during the Apartheid years, so can’t tell you whether he was good. Can’t find any record of him

[mikey_dragon]

Jamie Roberts looks really good for Bath. Just goes to show he’s always had more dimensions to his game, and he looks fit. If his form is consistent then we should consider him. If Pivac wants to play an attack minded game then you’d pick Roberts on this form, along with guys like Jarrod Evans, Patchell, etc. 
I think Adam Warren has been consistently good for a while and should be looked at as a 13 for the baa-baa’s game.

[Guest]

Adam Warren over Scott Williams, mikey?

[Gooseberry]

Oracle go read your own post. You said some of the best international coaches didn't make it to the top ( I assume you meant as a player)...then listed them including "now Pivac".
As an international coach he hasn't done a thing yet, and being in charge of the joint third best side in the world is not the top of coaching either. Even Gatland turning down the other joint 3rd job.

Back on topic anyway ...Roberts wont be available will he? Assuming PRL wont release players for this.
Otherwise theres something to be said for picking a guy who has bags of experience and would bust a gut rather than a 7th choice who wouldnt even make a regional sides first 23 in normal circumstances.

[Guest]

Roberts won't be available, no.

[Guest]

Oracle go read your own post. You said some of the best international coaches didn't make it to the top ( I assume you meant as a player)...then listed them including "now Pivac".
As an international coach he hasn't done a thing yet, and being in charge of the joint third best side in the world is not the top of coaching either. Even Gatland   turning down the other joint 3rd job.

Back on topic anyway ...Roberts wont be available will he? Assuming PRL wont release players for this.
Otherwise theres something to be said for picking a guy who has bags of experience and would bust a gut rather than a 7th choice who wouldnt even make a regional sides first 23 in normal circumstances.

Apologies, you are right. Poorly worded by me. Pivac was an afterthought on that list of, what I consider, top coaches. True, he hasn’t done anything at this level yet. Anyway, my point still stands - being a top player does not necessarily make a good/successful coach and vice versa. That’s all.

Roberts... hmmm. Could do a lot worse. I’ve thought for a while now that if he could lose a bit of bulk he’d be very useful for Wales. At times it was like having a 2nd row at 12 for Wales - 6’5” and 18 stone, or whatever he was! The game has moved away from the Warrenball slow crash from 12, but there’s still a place in the game for a big 12. So a slightly less bulky, and perhaps then quicker, JR would be a useful player to have in the team. Or at least as a bench option.

[Guest]

I'd say that Pivac is a better coach than any of the 4 Home Nations bar Eddie Jones with England. However, given the likelihood that he's off, and who his possible replacement might be, he could take the 'best' tag of all 4. He'd then be the best coach of the 6Ns teams. Real changing of the guard in the rugby world at the moment.

[Taylorman]

Pivac was a very good player in his day. Does Wales have a contract with NZ that they’ll keep appointing our coaches until they win or something, one of those ‘gentleman’ agreements from the mid 1900s?

[Guest]

Pivac was a very good player in his day. Does Wales have a contract with NZ that they’ll keep appointing our coaches until they win or something, one of those ‘gentleman’ agreements from the mid 1900s?

According to Wiki he had 24 appearances for North Harbour in 3 seasons. That’s it. Doesn’t seem that awesome. How come he wasn’t capped? Or played more?

[RiscaGame]

Warburton is a pretty shrewd appointment by Wales. He was a pretty adaptable as a flanker and able to pick his moments to jackal etc. He also knew when not to and is pretty shrewd at reading refs. That’s a pretty good skill to coach. Then there’s the little things like how good he was at speaking to refs. That’s something else he can help with. It’s obvious seeing him on tv, that he is very smart. I think he’s a good appointment.

[Taylorman]

Pivac was a very good player in his day. Does Wales have a contract with NZ that they’ll keep appointing our coaches until they win or something, one of those ‘gentleman’ agreements from the mid 1900s?

According to Wiki he had 24 appearances for North Harbour in 3 seasons. That’s it. Doesn’t seem that awesome. How come he wasn’t capped? Or played more?

He was in very good company with Wayne Shelford, the Whettons, ZinZan etc and a bit of a nomad lock flanker type but did his knee in and finished mid 20s. Didn’t say awesome, he was very good, in an era in 80s Auckland where rugby was at its best.

[RiscaGame]

Tom Francis likely to miss the start of the Six Nations, after he needed surgery on his shoulder injury.

[Guest]

Should be a recall for Samson then. 6Ns is his bread and butter sort of tournament. Could do with shifting a bit more fat but he still has something to offer - mainly that he's held his own for Wales in the scrum.

[mikey_dragon]

Lee looks as if he's added a to his game, rather than just be a rock at the scrum. Looks as if he's lost a bit of weight too so might be a good option to recall. Francis is the best option at the scrum, then there seems to be quite a drop-off when Lewis comes in. That's got to be a concern, but we'll just add it to the list of concerns and carry on.

[Guest]

Wales squad gets announced today. Likely to be a few new faces and several old ones as well, given the nature of the game and the injuries.

No room for English based players - Biggar, Carre, Adams, and outside bets like Roberts and Priestland. Plenty of injuries as well, several long term - Liam Williams, JD2, Tomas Francis, with Cory Hill and Ellis Jenkins and a few others like Faletau all making their way back slowly.

I would imagine Pivac will almost be forced to pick players like AWJ, Tipuric, and the other more senior heads for this. Simply not enough depth. Someone might want to total up the players ineligible for this game but I'd be amazed if it's fewer than 15.

Ones to watch out for - new caps for Johnny McNicholl and Haloholo. Recalls for Steff Evans with Luke Morgan and LW injured, pushing 1/2P to 15 and having North as the only senior winger who's also likely to miss out with a muscle injury. Could be Lane and Steff as the two wingers, Hal Amos at 23.

Chance for Scott Williams to reclaim a place in the side but Pivac may persist with Parkes and Watkin. Potentially a chance for Rhodri Williams or Kieran Hardy to get a recall or debut respectively. Dan Jones at the Scarlets probably an outside chance given Jarod Evans has been capped, but can't be far away. Harri Millard at the Blues and Jack Dixon at the Dragons might be bolters depending on how Pivac wants to play going forward, and whether he's earmarked either of them for the next 2 years or so.

In the forwards, it may be a case of selecting who's still standing. Hookers look good and might be a chance to rotate, with Dee and Elias giving Ken a rest. One of the Ospreys hookers could come in, as could Dacey. If Wales have payers released back to the regions outside the 23 who play (which would be ideal) then may not need a third in practical terms. Props are strugglin, Samson and Rob Evans likely to get recalls I would have thought. Might even be the starting props as well. Second row should see Adam Beard starting with maybe Ball or Brad Davies, though AWJ might get selected to flog a few more tickets. Can't think of anyone else outside the 5 who were involved in WC prep. Shingler hopefully has a place in Pivac's plans, Wainwright likely to keep his place, with Moriarty starting at 8. Outside shots might be Josh Macleod at the Scarlets, Will Boyde at the Blues, and Ollie Griffiths at the Dragons, with a real outside shot be Harrison Keddie for the 8 shirt. By and large, though, I think the depth in the back 5 of the pack pretty much picks itself, and will be most similar to the side that went through the WC.

[Guest]

I'd second (or third) the recall of Lee and Rob Evans as props. Don't necessarily disagree with them being dropped if it was due to lack of match fitness after injury, but think they still have a future at international level. I'd also like to think Leon Brown still has a future there. Not just because he is a Dragons player. Just from watching him and also listening to Dean Ryan who feels he's done tremendously well since he was dropped from the WC squad and feels he is a good international in the making. Still very young. Just think we could do with a powerful player like that in the squad for a few years to come.

While I have my regional hat on - agree with Miaow that Ollie Griffiths might be there or there abouts. Moriarty too, although he's slipped a bit under Gatland possibly as he's a bit less dynamic than other options currently (e.g. Wainright). One Dragon I'd like to add to the potentials list is Taine Basham - not least for the name! But he's been going really well, scored a hat trick on the weekend and plenty of tries elsewhere, and has caught the eye of teams like Saracens who we had to beat off to get him to re-sign. It's far too competitive in the back row so I doubt he'll make a squad any time soon, but one to watch.

Maybe we should compile a completely one eyed list of who we think could/should be in the mix from our regional sides going forward?! It will be completely biased but if we acknowledge that from the start then we might save a few arguments

[LondonTiger]

Wales squad gets announced today. Likely to be a few new faces and several old ones as well, given the nature of the game and the injuries.

No room for English based players - Biggar, Carre, Adams,

Adams no longer at Worcester.

[TightHEAD]

As a Bath fan i'm more than happy to let you have Roberts for the Baa baas game, our wingers might see the ball then!

[RiscaGame]

Leon Brown has scrummaged well for Dragons, thus far. I think it should be him and Sansom for this game and not utilise Lewis. Then those two can have a shootout of sorts for a Six Nations squad place and probably a bench place for the Italy game.

Dragons in with a shot for selection today.

Basham, Brown and Davies.

I wouldn't be surprised if a few others were looked at too (possibly Hewitt), but wonder if Griffiths' injury has come at the wrong time again.

[Guest]

Wales squad gets announced today. Likely to be a few new faces and several old ones as well, given the nature of the game and the injuries.

No room for English based players - Biggar, Carre, Adams,

Adams no longer at Worcester.

Good point!

[Guest]

Interesting squad. 5 uncapped players.

Forwards: Elliot Dee (Dragons) (29 Caps) Ryan Elias (Scarlets) (9 Caps) Ken Owens (Scarlets) (73 Caps) Rob Evans (Scarlets) (36 Caps) Wyn Jones (Scarlets) (22 Caps) Nicky Smith (Ospreys) (35 Caps) Leon Brown (Dragons) (6 Caps) Samson Lee (Scarlets) (41 Caps) Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues) (22 Caps) Jake Ball (Scarlets) (42 Caps) Adam Beard (Ospreys) (20 Caps) Bradley Davies (Ospreys) (66 Caps) Seb Davies (Cardiff Blues) (7 Caps) Taine Basham (Dragons) (Uncapped) Ollie Griffiths (Dragons) (1 Cap) Shane Lewis-Hughes (Cardiff Blues) (Uncapped) Ross Moriarty (Dragons) (41 Caps) Aaron Shingler (Scarlets) (26 Caps) Justin Tipuric (Ospreys) (72 Caps) Aaron Wainwright (Dragons) (18 Caps)

Backs: Aled Davies (Ospreys) (20 Caps) Gareth Davies (Scarlets) (51 Caps) Tomos Williams (Cardiff Blues) (16 Caps) Sam Davies (Dragons) (8 Caps) Jarrod Evans (Cardiff Blues) (3 Caps) Willis Halaholo (Cardiff Blues) (Uncapped) Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets) (25 Caps) Owen Watkin (Ospreys) (22 Caps) Owen Lane (Cardiff Blues) (2 Caps) Josh Adams (Cardiff Blues) (21 Caps) Steff Evans (Scarlets) (13 Caps) Ashton Hewitt (Dragons) (Uncapped) Johnny McNicholl (Scarlets) (Uncapped) Hallam Amos (Cardiff Blues) (22 Caps) Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets) (85 Caps)

[Guest]

The only shocks might be Hewitt, Basham, and Lewis-Hughes.

[Guest]

Sam Davies - don't let Mikey see!

[RiscaGame]

Interesting squad really. It would appear that some of the RWC squad are only there to be around the squad and see how the training environment is etc. So I would expect people like Owens and a couple of the backrowers not to play.

[mikey_dragon]

I thought Dan Jones would be ahead of Sam Davies. SD does seem to have improved a little with us, and will do alright if; 1 He avoid 1 on 1s whilst defending. 2 There is a second place kicker on the field.

I didn't think Griffiths would get called up due to his injury record. Same for Basham in that I didn't expect him to be in either, but this is just a Baa-baa's game, so with those two in then why the need for Tipuric?

We've all see by now that Aled can't do it, that spot could have went to Hardy, Rhodri Williams or anyone else.

Is this game capped? They might ask for it to be just to tie in the two kiwi's.

[LordDowlais]

I more miffed about Willis Halaholo and Johnny McNicholl being picked above anything else.

[mikey_dragon]

Parkes could have been left out to either rest or return for the Scarlets. I would have not bothered with Owens or Ball either, they aren't really needed but are assured their places (if fit) in the 6N squad. It would have been an opportunity to reintroduce Hill. Shingler needs the game time though so I would hand him a start.

[mikey_dragon]

I more miffed about Willis Halaholo and Johnny McNicholl being picked above anything else.

Nobody better than them in their positions. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

[TightHEAD]

Its a joke.

[mikey_dragon]

So anyone care to select a team? I'll go with:

Rob Evs, Elliot Dee, Samson Lee, Jake Ball, Adam Beard, Aaron Shingler, Aaron Wainwright, Ollie Griffiths, Tomos Williams, Jarrod Evans, Owen Lane, Willis Halaholo, Owen Watkin, Johnny McNichol, Hallam Amos.
Ryan Elias, Wyn Jones, Leon Brown, Seb Davies, Ross Moriarty, Gareth Davies, Sam Davies, Parkes/Halfpenny/Hewitt.

[Guest]

Pivac won't want to lose his first Wales game...to Gatland. Some good players in the BaBas side. Need some quality in the side. Wales go to sheet when we pick the reserves...or at least did for a decade under Gatland.

Honestly surprised about Hewitt. Everyone else is just about deserving of a place, or makes 'sense'. But worth a look at him. Tough ask for small wingers in this day and age. Either need the stepping and trickery of Steff Evans - who's yet to actually look like a reliable test winger - or the blistering speed of Luke Morgan. Get both together and you get Kolbe. Not sure Hewitt has either.

[mikey_dragon]

I would just use it as a training exercise. I think there is enough quality there to score more tries than the opposition. Evans and Morgan don't really look like international quality for me, and I didn't think Morgan was having that good a season when he once got called up either.

[RiscaGame]

Hewitt has looked pretty good this season, to be fair to him. I wouldn't say it was a great surprise, especially as he has been mentioned as worthy of Wales selection previously. Players like Evans and Amos have had an opportunity, without nailing down a squad place and it's a good game to look at players like Hewitt and Lane.

[Guest]

I just wonder what Hewitt brings. Steff Evans has good European and latter-stages-of-the-Pro12/14 pedigree. He's clearly a very good club winger, with flaws. Luke Morgan has talent, finishing ability, and Johnny May pace, which is hugely important. I struggle to see what Hewitt offers if I'm honest, although would like to be proven wrong. Same feeling with Keelan Giles - nippy little winger but not nippy nor jinky enough. If you watch Kolbe's defensive efforts for SA you see he made sure he wasn't a liability that his size and strength might have made him - he worked hard to be a defensive asset rushing up as the last man to cut down an overlap and trust his inside defence and/or scramble. If you're small, you've got to be very good. Adams, for me, is good - but not Watson or Stockdale or North good. May is a great example of where hard work can get you, and Adams has a rugby nous about him that probably mitigates what are decent but not world class basic skills. I fear the wingers we're talking about here are a level or two below Adams, which really isn't great news.

Anyway, new era. Some interesting comments about Pivac. Seems open to the idea that Gatlandball is dead. Can only pick the players you can pick, so hope Hewitt goes well if he does get picked. It's a really big squad for a one off game, though, so I imagine quite a few of those uncapped players are there to get a taste of training before being released back to the regions.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Hewitt's stronger than you'd think. You think he's tackled but he still makes ground.

He seems to me to try too hard at times, and that rugby nous you mention might not be there at the minute, but that's partly what these extended squads are for - to bring in talented players who might still be a bit raw, and give them the tools and tips they need to make the transition to the top level. Some will take their chance, others won't. Some players look ready for Test rugby from the outset, others need work.

[Guest]

Perhaps. But he turns 25 tomorrow. He's not young. Should be just entering his peak as a winger.

[LordDowlais]

I more miffed about Willis Halaholo and Johnny McNicholl being picked above anything else.

Nobody better than them in their positions. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

They did not grow up with aspirations to represent Wales when they grew up.

Also, Halaholo I will give you, due to our injuries, but we have better Welsh wingers/fullbacks than McNicholl.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Perhaps. But he turns 25 tomorrow. He's not young. Should be just entering his peak as a winger.

He's had a fair bit of time out with injuries. If you're going to mention his age, it seems fair to mention that too.

I'm not saying he'll make it as a Test player. I actually doubt he will. But let's see.

[Guest]

Not sure about Haloholo, but I've changed my mind on McNicholl. I do think there's something to be said for having kids and a family in Wales, and that changing your sense of nationality. Ideally, Wales would just be Welsh players - and by and large we've managed that far better than any of the other 6 Nations sides over the last decade. Italy's best players are all Saffas, English, or Argentinian; the French backline has been packed full of Islanders for years; England have picked its fair share of SH club imports who qualified by default; and Ireland and Scotland have been the worst exponents of the project player system.

We're a bit late in the game here with Haloholo and McNicholl, and I'd expect this kind of selection to be mostly a thing of the past from now on in Wales, a not too many top class players will stick around for 5 years with a region on the off chance they'll represent Wales one day...but apart from Parkes and Anscombe, I'm struggling to think of any project player Wales have really selected. Tomas Francis, perhaps, and that's about it, qualifying through a fairly tenuous blood link. In reality, we're no worse than NZ with overseas talent, with a solid 3-6 of their squads being born and bred Islanders.

[Guest]

Perhaps. But he turns 25 tomorrow. He's not young. Should be just entering his peak as a winger.

He's had a fair bit of time out with injuries. If you're going to mention his age, it seems fair to mention that too.

I'm not saying he'll make it as a Test player. I actually doubt he will. But let's see.

All fair points. I hope he goes well. But injuries are all part and parcel, as well. Small fast players seen as 'unlucky' to get injured when it's overlooking the fact durability is also a key part of rugby as well. Hewitt, Giles, Eli Walker, Harry Robinson...they all sort of fit in to this mould of players who would have been decent if they played 10-15 years before they did. Anway, have to see how it goes.

[RiscaGame]

I don’t really expect too much and doubt Hewitt will feature much for Wales, but I do think his club form does warrant squad selection. Even though he has only scored once this season, he has been pretty hard to stop. That’s why I wasn’t surprised he did get looked at. Plus these players with flaws should be able to improve under international coaches.

Good to read about Pivac’s attacking intent though, yeah.

[mikey_dragon]

I more miffed about Willis Halaholo and Johnny McNicholl being picked above anything else.

Nobody better than them in their positions. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

They did not grow up with aspirations to represent Wales when they grew up.

Also, Halaholo I will give you, due to our injuries, but we have better Welsh wingers/fullbacks than McNicholl.

They're both here now, and better than what's available. Yeah Halaholo does everything very well. Not sure who's better than McNicholl apart from Liam Williams. JM is one of the best attacking players I've seen, very much in the mould of your average Kiwi winger and that sort of intent is something that a few Welsh players seem to be lacking.

[majesticimperialman]

So no room for Jamie Roberts in the welsh squad then.

[Guest]

Not this one maj. He's playing in England, so isn't eligible. As he takes up 2 seats on the coach so yes, definitely no room.

[Gooseberry]

Suggestion of not starting AWJ seems a bit bonkers. Theres plenty of room to experiment with fringe players but it doesnt serve to judge or integrate them as part of the wales side if you leave out the few first choice players available. Plus as captain if you're looking to make any changes in the way the team plays and conducts itself its helpful to have the main leader on the pitch, and maybe even get a feel for how he conducts himself.

It's certainly not a lnockover match for them, but should be a chance for players to cut loose a bit and show the sort of attacking flair theyve had stifled in recent times. Barbarian games tend to be quite open with the opposition not brilliantly organised, but capable of producing some magic of own. Just dont get carried away if Wales have a try fest, they will likely revert to a more pragmatic style in the 6 nations and winter conditions. For all the talk of Gatland ball is dead SA showed that a bit of grind can still win you trophies.
As for the hoohaa over picking qualified players I thought Wales had got over that one some time ago. It's been quite noticable the jibes at England have claimed down this year. If there were a glut of young talented welsh boyos missing out then fair enough but the very reason these chaps are employed by the regions is because there arent enough test class players coming through the academies to keep the regions competitive.

[LordDowlais]

There been a bit of a fall out in the media regarding this Welsh squad.

[mikey_dragon]

In the WOL I'm guessing, because I haven't seen anything.

[Guest]

Had this on in the background but picked up some really key interesting statements from Gatland. Worth a listen. 20 mins long.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p07vffgk

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