Fire Townsend

Lots of rugby expert pundits placing blame at the coach. Townsend is a one trick pony. Cotter got a lot more out of a far inferior group of players.

Rory Lawson

Former Scotland captain

Quote Message: The minimum standard that Scotland fans ask for is effort and fight. There was no tooth or bite to that performance. Normally you have something to hang on to - attack play or defensive solidity - but there was nothing. And to add to the misery, Hamish Watson's injury looks significant.


Ryan Grant

Former Scotland and Warriors player on BBC Radio Scotland

Quote Message: Scotland's attitude didn't look right. It's so disappointing to watch - especially in a World Cup opener where they should be right up for it.


Tom English

BBC Scotland's chief sports writer

Quote Message: Scotland didn't turn up. No urgency, no aggression, nothing. A pitiful performance. The Irish players are probably saying they can't believe how easy they had it. Scotland are an absolute soft touch.



Andy Nicol
@AndyNic9

Thank God that is over Massive disappointment but we park it and move on to next game against Samoa. Huge questions for whole squad/coaches in @Scotlandteam to answer in that game! #Sco #RWC2019 #keepthefaith

Peter Wright

Former Scotland prop on BBC Radio Scotland

Quote Message: The second half was even worse in the first - we just didn't get anything going and had no points. I can't remember a World Cup game where we haven't scored a try. More concerning is we didn't even threaten until after 70 minutes.
.
Shane Horgan

Former Ireland wing on BBC Radio 5 Live

Quote Message: That little phase was a good demonstration of the difference between the sides. It wasn't a bad move round the side from Scotland, but Ireland met it with such physicality and stopped it dead. It seemed like a lack of self-belief from Scotland that they would get over the line.

Sir Ian McGeechan assesses that Scottish effort: “It was a lack of patience. They tried to force things

Well i don't think we'll be leaving the group. Seriously concerned that samoa will beat us this time around.

If this happens toonie is toast. My concern is he'll make it to the quarters then keep riding the coattails of luck and leave a mess for a new coach to fix post 6Ns.

I wanted to give him a chance but I really lost a lot of respect for the man from the moment he was shoehorned into the Scotland job from what i understand was on his terms.if he has any self respect and respect for the national team he'll jump before he's pushed.

A coach can only do so much. It is down to the players on the field to put in the hard work.

Aye but everything that scotland are bad at smacks of poor coaching. I haven't seen us have so many bad games since 2010

I think he will jump if we do not make the quarters, but that was probably always our limit in this competition with the draw we had.

It gets a bit more tricky if we do well in our other gsmes and give NZ a game in the quarters, which we probably are capable of doing.

Is Toonie the man to take this group forward though? This is still a young team and for a lot of them, the next WC in France may be their peak.

If he keeps making the same mistskes, over and over agsin and not learning from them, then you would have to ssy he is not that man.

Chickens have come home to roost. Glasgow's high tempo game succeeded under Townsend because Leone Nakawara could suck in 3 or 4 defenders and then offload with his Inspect Gadget arms.
Unfortunately we have Johny Gray instead of the figiian super star. We don't have any forwards apart from Watson and sometime McInally who can break through tackles so Toonies game plan of fast fast rugby doesn't work. Good coaches with a good pack know if you can slow down our ball plan A won't work, there is no plan B plus our defense is woeful.
Unfortunately the SRU will not sack Toonie as he is still the golden child in their eyes, having brought silverware to Glasgow. Plus he still has at least a couple of years to run on his 400 K a year salary.

It's certainly alarming. Townsend is in a perilous position. If Scotland lose to Samoa he will probably lose his job. Lose to Japan I'd expect him to have a chance at the 6N and anything lower than 3rd or 4th would spell his doom.

Being an optimist though, I don't think that will happen and I fully expect Scotland to win all their remaining games and make the QF's. It just really sucks to see Scotland put in such a weak performance for their toughest pool match.

Ireland's pack is a snarling, angry beast of a pack and they all know how to exert pressure in defence and attack.

Scotland's pack is not. They can hold their own but against a fiercer pack they often crumble. In today's match they couldn't match Ireland's at all. Against Samoa, Russia and Japan they should do a lot better.

I'm actually happy we will probably have NZ in the QF's rather than SA, because NZ play a brand of rugby that Scotland understand better. They'll still probably win but it should be a more approachable contest.

I'd rather see someone new come in after the WC. My concern is toonie will justify his tenure if we reach the quarters and we'll continue on our downward tangent.

I don't see how he csn get sacked for getting to the quarters, given that was our realistic expectation for this tournament.

Not making the quarters however is a different ball game!

That's what im saying biggee, I'd actually prefer us to be knocked out rather than creating a false dawn that keeps the pretender in post because it'll be more detrimental to Scotland in the long run if toonie stays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt1cWqJH6RY

Akward question

"numerous examples of Scotland starting off games lacking aggression going back years, whats that all about".....

Awkward but absolutely fair. It's happening with increasing frequency so is a legitimate question.

Dont think they'll have to fire him....if Scots lose to Samoa or Japan he'll resign. Shame but having watched the Ireland game closely the biggest issue is not talent - though some are way out of their depth e.g. Maitland - but coaching. A few phases of pick and go and now we're bored so lets try something fancy at 10-12 and bang we end up going backwards so lets kick it away. Scots fans deserve better and its all very well thinking Russell is the panacea but you need a pack comfortable in possession that can bang away at the door before Russell does his stuff. And frankly Russell needs a swift kick in rear.

Looks like there’s already a NH SH theme coming through, the only poor performing home unions side is one that dumped a SH coach.

Taylorman wrote:Looks like there’s already a NH SH theme coming through, the only poor performing home unions side is one that dumped a SH coach.

Shame you don't have any money to spend on coaches so they have to find a proper living where the money is....I suppose spending so much on cultivating PI players takes up all the wedge.

I think at least 99% of the Scotland fans on here would have kept VC, regardless of where he's from, not all of us are jingoistic like you seem to believe. SH, NH, it's irrelevant. Matt Williams was our worst coach of the pro era and he is Australian.

Pie wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Looks like there’s already a NH SH theme coming through, the only poor performing home unions side is one that dumped a SH coach.

Shame you don't have any money to spend on coaches so they have to find a proper living where the money is....I suppose spending so much on cultivating PI players takes up all the wedge.

I just look at what’s in front of me pie. And that’s three teams out of the 6N all having extended runs of winning, all winning the 6N, and two reaching number one, with the one common and undeniable thread link them, though the PI presence is increasingly another as you say.

What’s the bet Scotland go back to a SH coach?

Snore, Schmidt and Gatland have been involved in NH rugby infinitely longer than they have in the SH. A large part of their rugby education especially at the highest level has come in Wales, Ireland, England and France.

All NH sides that have made finals have had NH coaches. You pick the best guy for the job based on who is knocking around and both Schmidt and Gatland were around a long time before they got top jobs they barely count as Kiwis anymore in rugby experience terms.

Also no team has a bigger PI presence than NZ so change the record.

Townsend is a great coach, who has experienced a blip. He will bounce back. Steve Hansen and Graham Henry were two of the biggest flops in NH rugby history so its irrelevant where you are from, success relies on much more that that.

What about Dean Richards?

I think most on this forum will agree that if we don't get out of the group at this world cup Gregor Townsend would have to go, in fact, I would say most would probably say he has to go now because our 6N was dire and our form in Ireland game yesterday was worse than abysmal.

So, bearing that in mind, who would you replace Gregor with? I am sure there will be many contenders from both the SH and NH but, imho, it would have to be a SH coach.

Dave Rennie's the obvious option if he's not already signed up to the Wallabies. I'm sure Wales will be kicking themselves for turning him down for Pivac soon enough.

You don't have to get rid of Townsend, he's a very good coach, just not a proven test level head coach.

Dave Rennie would be decent but he's not set the heather alight with Glasgow. Remember his first year or so he had Price, Russell, Seymour, Johnson, Jones and Hogg; in effect the backline he'll have to work with at Scotland. Yes, you can discuss Maitland, Graham, Kinghorn, Taylor etc. etc. but the raw ingredients were at Glasgow. So let's not pretend he's definitely the answer. He has also said his wife wants to move back to New Zealand. So it might be that neither he or Scotland are right for one another at this moment. Cockerill isn't right currently either.

Similar to above I think it's premature to say he's got to go. However we're reaching definition of insanity levels now and something needs to change. I think it's time to look at a new defence coach. I think our defence has been worked out and perhaps some fresh ideas would be good. Matt Taylor perhaps needs a new challenge, he's been in Scotland for a while. Regardless of what happens later in the tournament Sunday was a signal that personnel needs to change and he needs to change. He needs a plan B and we need another look at our defensive coaching.

Collapse2005 wrote:.Townsend is a great coach, who has experienced a blip. He will bounce back. Steve Hansen and Graham Henry were two of the biggest flops in NH rugby history so its irrelevant where you are from, success relies on much more that that.

I actually believe that Townsend will be a good Scotland coach, but only at the second time of asking. Right now he isn’t ready, lacks experience and needs to do a lot more learning. He needs to step back to club level and learn how to play more attritional rugby. A coaching role in France would be good for him.

Funnily enough that’s what we all said when the SRU decided to get rid of BVC and hire Toonie when he was clearly not ready. But they won’t be holding their hands up to that, that’s not their style

I disagree, I really don't think it's premature. We've gone from playing better than the sum of our parts to underperforming with greater regularity against tier one nations. I have no sympathy for toonie either. He plumped himself for Scotland to the point that the SRU let an excellent coach go to make way for Toonie (a seemingly recurring theme). If he can't handle the job he shouldn't have pushed to have it.

At first it seemed as though he may prove us wrong like he did when he was elevated to the position (much in the same fashion) at Glasgow but even early we looked a lot more inconsistent than we'd been building towards. His mantra is built on a house of cards, words first and actions will follow. To be honest i think the only person holding any structure in the Scotland camp was McFarland as the decline really kicked off when he left. It's also worth noting that Glasgow were quite a mess when he left and were on the decline.

The fact that Finn had to pump up the players at half time at Twickenham and lead the half time discussion says an awful lot. Whether they stuck to Toonies plan or not. When the players came out in the 2nd half against Ireland they looked depressed, it was like watching the Scotland of 10 years ago, with a good coach that shouldn't be happening and they should at least feel a bit reinvigorated after chatting things through. Its no coincidence that when Toonie was the Scotland attack coach our attack lacked patience and accuracy, and now he's head coach we see the exact same problem since he's bedded in.

So thats my two pence worth, as for a new coach its hard to say really. I think there's not a great SH coach out there who will be available or willing to coach Scotland. Agree Rennie or Cockers aren't the answer for opposing reasons. I thought maybe Steve Diamond would be a good shout or Pat Lam. If we could capture mark mccall who obviously rates a few Scots, that could work nicely.

Unless you can start developing some really physical and gnarly forwards does it really matter who the coach is?

Thing is our forwards have won a fair few upfront battles. Including against england last year. They're not incapable. Under VC they gave a bit more gritty performances, which is what is required. Yes we won't often dominate the contact as we've not got the biggest guys but it'd at least enable us to compete. We've not even reached the competitive level this WC or the last year.

NeilyBroon wrote:Thing is our forwards have won a fair few upfront battles. Including against england last year. They're not incapable. Under VC they gave a bit more gritty performances, which is what is required. Yes we won't often dominate the contact as we've not got the biggest guys but it'd at least enable us to compete. We've not even reached the competitive level this WC or the last year.

 You certainly beat us at the breakdown last year (as did France and Ireland), but too often that seems to have been an exception. Guys like Johnny Gray worry me - he really seems not to have kicked on and is far too often rather passive. Now people will bring up his tackle count and success rate - and yet again he was 100% against Ireland. Yet none of these tackles were aggressive dominant tackles, the kind that disrupt the opposition.

For your back line to flourish it needs to have the opposition being knocked backwards whether in attack or defence - and it just does not happen often enough.

Its the cult of fly half....you have an awesome 10 of the old school coaching a new broom....we know there's been tension a la England 6 Nations.

Toon and or Russell may have to go

Collapse2005 wrote:Snore, Schmidt and Gatland have been involved in NH rugby infinitely longer than they have in the SH. A large part of their rugby education especially at the highest level has come in Wales, Ireland, England and France.

All NH sides that have made finals have had NH coaches. You pick the best guy for the job based on who is knocking around and both Schmidt and Gatland were around a long time before they got top jobs they barely count as Kiwis anymore in rugby experience terms.

Also no team has a bigger PI presence than NZ so change the record.

Townsend is a great coach, who has experienced a blip. He will bounce back. Steve Hansen and Graham Henry were two of the biggest flops in NH rugby history so its irrelevant where you are from, success relies on much more that that.

Struggling with NZ rugby still I see. Townsend’s a great coach, yet the name of the article is?

@NeilyBroon,who is Steve Diamond?

DoR at Sale Sharks in the premiership. Has made them a tough team to beat. Wouldn't be my first choice but someone mentioned him before and actually wouldn't be a bad shout.

Scotland needed to go toe to toe with the Irish for as long as possible then open up later in the game, trying to do it from the off was always a mistake.

TightHEAD wrote:Scotland needed  to go toe to toe with the Irish for as long as possible then open up later in the game, trying to do it from the off was always a mistake.

Agree there, and it’s a problem the ABs will have to watch out for as the fact is, at the very top level no side is the same side twenty minutes into a test as they were at the start. One certainty is aerobic levels are significantly more under pressure and that can affect structure, reaction times etc. at the start, everything you expect to defend, and more, is fully resourced.

Twenty minutes in, it’s not. NZ keeping out the Boks for those twenty minutes was critical, and that’s what sides need to do with Ireland, hold that first half hour os so, and you have a good chance. Ireland like to win through structure and predictability, not chaos. They’re more like to get that in the first half. So go into half time all square, or ahead, you’re chances go up significantly.

What happens if we get to the QF? Does Toonie get to stay? I say not

Taylorman wrote:I just look at what’s in front of me pie. And that’s three teams out of the 6N all having extended runs of winning, all winning the 6N, and two reaching number one, with the one common and undeniable thread link them, though the PI presence is increasingly another as you say.

They all contributed a large number of players to the Lions tour to NZ that ended in a drawn series?

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Snore, Schmidt and Gatland have been involved in NH rugby infinitely longer than they have in the SH. A large part of their rugby education especially at the highest level has come in Wales, Ireland, England and France.

All NH sides that have made finals have had NH coaches. You pick the best guy for the job based on who is knocking around and both Schmidt and Gatland were around a long time before they got top jobs they barely count as Kiwis anymore in rugby experience terms.

Also no team has a bigger PI presence than NZ so change the record.

Townsend is a great coach, who has experienced a blip. He will bounce back. Steve Hansen and Graham Henry were two of the biggest flops in NH rugby history so its irrelevant where you are from, success relies on much more that that.

Struggling with NZ rugby still I see. Townsend’s a great coach, yet the name of the article is?  

Scotland lost to team who were ranked 1 in the world in the eve of the game. I guess by your logic Hanson should have be sacked after losses v SA (7th) Australia (5th) or Ireland (2nd). I highly doubt he would do any better as Scotland coach.




 

  

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:.Townsend is a great coach, who has experienced a blip. He will bounce back. Steve Hansen and Graham Henry were two of the biggest flops in NH rugby history so its irrelevant where you are from, success relies on much more that that.

I actually believe that Townsend will be a good Scotland coach, but only at the second time of asking. Right now he isn’t ready, lacks experience and needs to do a lot more learning. He needs to step back to club level and learn how to play more attritional rugby. A coaching role in France would be good for him.

Ambitious, and well reasoned, but isn't THIS his second time of asking? Wasn't he backs coach under...hmmm...was it Scott Johnson for a while? And Andy Robinson before him?

Sporting management - like all management - is increasingly a young man and woman's game these days. The days of Ferguson and Wenger esque regins are gone. Most coaches are done by 60, it seems, and longevity at the top - in this increasingly pressure-filled sector - is shorter than it used to be.

Once you're done, you're done. I'd be amazed if Townsend got a third chance in the Scotland camp, with a second as head coach. Sport moves so fast, almost on a weekly basis now. What was fresh and vibrant for Towsend - and Pivac at the Scarlets - can be done in a season or two, and a whole new gameplan and structure needs to be devised.

The point is, it's easier to create a 'whole' plan of attack and 'philosophy' in sport from the outside. Not too far outside that you're off the pace, but in a position where you're not dealing with the constant, week on week pressure of just keeping a club afloat. If you drop out, you'll quickly find your 'philosophy' has been surpassed by some fresh young things. It's a dog eat dog world - either you're a Dai Young, pragmatic coach who can keep things ticking over despite the stress, or you're a Townsend, who seems like a mercurial flash in the pan, but not built for the long term.

Maybe it's different at test level. It's something you only need to be 'on' for for a few months each year. Gatland managed the Lions job this way. But if Townsend leaves, where does he go? No way he'd get a job in England unless it was a real up and comer like Ealing trying to break the Premiership or someone just relegated and willing to take a risk. Move to France? That could be brilliant and disastrous all at once. Overseas? Do an Eddie Jones and take a step down the international rung? Coach a Japan or a USA? I just don't think he's in that calibre, EJ had been there and done it by the time he had the Japan job. I'm not sure Towsend has.

If anything, I'd say Townsend suits club coaching more. And if not Glasgow, his options are perhaps a bit limited. Would be interesting to see how he'd get on in NZ though. Go down there and really prove yourself.

miaow wrote:

Taylorman wrote:I just look at what’s in front of me pie. And that’s three teams out of the 6N all having extended runs of winning, all winning the 6N, and two reaching number one, with the one common and undeniable thread link them, though the PI presence is increasingly another as you say.

They all contributed a large number of players to the Lions tour to NZ that ended in a drawn series?

Nah, thats the embarassing part, did they do a lap of honour after that drawn series, made necessary by NZ contributing 14 for 60 of 80 mins so they could win one. Who celebrates a draw?

Losers thats who.

I mean really, you'd think three countries all considered good chances individually to win this tournament can find between them a winning team...but alas.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Snore, Schmidt and Gatland have been involved in NH rugby infinitely longer than they have in the SH. A large part of their rugby education especially at the highest level has come in Wales, Ireland, England and France.

All NH sides that have made finals have had NH coaches. You pick the best guy for the job based on who is knocking around and both Schmidt and Gatland were around a long time before they got top jobs they barely count as Kiwis anymore in rugby experience terms.

Also no team has a bigger PI presence than NZ so change the record.

Townsend is a great coach, who has experienced a blip. He will bounce back. Steve Hansen and Graham Henry were two of the biggest flops in NH rugby history so its irrelevant where you are from, success relies on much more that that.

Struggling with NZ rugby still I see. Townsend’s a great coach, yet the name of the article is?  

Scotland lost to team who were ranked 1 in the world in the eve of the game. I guess by your logic Hanson should have be sacked after losses v SA (7th) Australia (5th) or Ireland (2nd). I highly doubt he would do any better as Scotland coach.

I'm not suggesting anything. Fans have created an article suggesting he should be dropped. I haven't. Im just reminding you of how that relates to your comment that he's a good coach. So it aint 'my logic'

Fire Schmidt...

Fire Howley!


... oh I'm late with that joke/retort. Sorry.

Gatland planted the betting slip. That’s the latest I’m hearing....!

The Oracle wrote:Gatland planted the betting slip. That’s the latest I’m hearing....!

Tenner says that’s not true

Crazy talking about sacking Townsend. It was a bad day at the office for the team and the bounce of the ball certainly went against them. Not his fault if the players are not there.

Taylorman wrote:Nah, thats the embarassing part, did they do a lap of honour after that drawn series, made necessary by NZ contributing 14 for 60 of 80 mins so they could win one. Who celebrates a draw?

Losers thats who.

I mean really, you'd think three countries all considered good chances individually to win this tournament can find between them a winning team...but alas.

You mention 14 players as if that's a positive for the All Blacks? That they/SBW decided to overstep the mark and try and use pretty old scool, timeless NZ tactics of over the top foul play to beat the Lions is their decision. The result is the result. It reflects precisely the game. If you're not good enough to refrain from deliberate and malicious foul play - which we've seen several times since 2017 - you get penalised and live with the consequences. I'm amazed you think that's a check in the box marked 'positive' for the ABs?

I don't think the Lions celebrated. But there's no way a Lions tour is an even playing field. To draw that series, on NZ's home turf, was a big achievement. 1 point away from winning the tour, that's all.

And good of you to see things in perspective, as ever...

profitius wrote:Crazy talking about sacking Townsend. It was a bad day at the office for the team and the bounce of the ball certainly went against them. Not his fault if the players are not there.

A team whose heads go down, where they were tactically out thought and where they looked ill prepared the coach must take some of the blame

Changing the coach isn’t going to solve anything. Scotland don’t have a good enough and deep enough squad of players to compete with the best teams.

Townsend can’t change that. Heck. Scotland’s best player won’t even give the ball to his team mates. It’s delusion to think that getting another coach will make Scotland world beaters.

They played the #1 team in the world and lost. That’s all. Give them a chance. They can still make the quarters.

Taylorman wrote:

miaow wrote:

Taylorman wrote:I just look at what’s in front of me pie. And that’s three teams out of the 6N all having extended runs of winning, all winning the 6N, and two reaching number one, with the one common and undeniable thread link them, though the PI presence is increasingly another as you say.

They all contributed a large number of players to the Lions tour to NZ that ended in a drawn series?

Nah, thats the embarassing part, did they do a lap of honour after that drawn series, made necessary by NZ contributing 14 for 60 of 80 mins so they could win one. Who celebrates a draw?

Losers thats who.

I mean really, you'd think three countries all considered good chances individually to win this tournament can find between them a winning team...but alas.

So Read IS a Loser eh?? Certainly ain't no McCaw. He stood there holding that Trophy with Warburton celebrating a draw....what a loser!!!!!!!

Changing the coach isn’t going to solve anything. Scotland don’t have a good enough and deep enough squad of players to compete with the best teams.

Townsend can’t change that. Heck. Scotland’s best player won’t even give the ball to his team mates. It’s delusion to think that getting another coach will make Scotland world beaters.

They played the #1 team in the world and lost. That’s all. Give them a chance. They can still make the quarters.

Utter drivel

Scotland has the players to compete very well at international club rugby but
continually underperform at intl level.

The dead ringer for poor coaching is the ritual turning up for games badly prepared lacking commitment and seeing 20 points down by half time.

This point has been picked up by a number of ex players and the press so its a serious problem not one off

To give you a good example wales dont have great club sides yet have a great intl team

Reason largely = coaching and tactics

Vern got way better organisation and defence than townsend has and that is absolutely critical

miaow wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Nah, thats the embarassing part, did they do a lap of honour after that drawn series, made necessary by NZ contributing 14 for 60 of 80 mins so they could win one. Who celebrates a draw?

Losers thats who.

I mean really, you'd think three countries all considered good chances individually to win this tournament can find between them a winning team...but alas.

You mention 14 players as if that's a positive for the All Blacks? That they/SBW decided to overstep the mark and try and use pretty old scool, timeless NZ tactics of over the top foul play to beat the Lions is their decision. The result is the result. It reflects precisely the game. If you're not good enough to refrain from deliberate and malicious foul play - which we've seen several times since 2017 - you get penalised and live with the consequences. I'm amazed you think that's a check in the box marked 'positive' for the ABs?

I don't think the Lions celebrated. But there's no way a Lions tour is an even playing field. To draw that series, on NZ's home turf, was a big achievement. 1 point away from winning the tour, that's all.

And good of you to see things in perspective, as ever...

No, I'm using it as a negative for the Lions. Again you surf somewhere else to make a point. I wasnt referring to the merits or not of the red, I was referring to four countries not being able to finish off a test with 60 minutes to go against 14 players.  Who said 'positive for the AB's?. heres a hint...you did.

I can accept we got the red, you seem to have trouble accepting the Lions couldnt finish them off.