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McLaren wrote:Ben

I am not doubting jas and believe him that the guy handed in a score for 51 points. I am just astonished by 51 points, as I said this is a score that I have never seen before. This is more about acknowledging the rarity of this event.

We are talking rarer than a hole in one, this guy has shot a nett score that only a handful people will ever have shot.

It just seems like others on here are not as blown away by a 20 handicapper shooting +5 as I am.

As a junior in the early 80s, I shot a nett 56 (a +4 or 5 round I think) and a 58 in the same Summer. I didn't cheat, but I did get cut a lot that year.

super_realist wrote:

JAS wrote:

super_realist wrote:JAS, sounds like you need a goto club that you are more confident with. You need a longer option considering that particular hole. I'd definitely be looking at practicing that shot of a 210 carry to safety to take out the potential terror of a four iron off the deck at such a point in your round.
Imagine it was you 2 down and two to play, do you really want to be facing getting down in three shots from 350 yards?

I do think I got my thinking right regarding %ages (the 4 iron was probably my sweetest struck iron of the day) but I take the point about a confident goto club if the driver is playing up.

Re the 2nd bit, I did pose myself that question as well, what would I do if I NEEDED to win the hole to stay in the match. It was a close call, that was why I posed the question. The thing is, If I'd hit 6 or 7/7 fairways with big boomers up to that point then yes I'd have had the big stick out. I do think an important part of golf, matchplay in particular, is knowing what you have on the day and having the discipline to manage it.

For me the biggest part of matchplay is to keep the ball in play, if you do that the pressure is always on your opponent to do so too. If you step up highly confident you're going to hit the fairway and a decent way up then you've got a massive gain on your opponent.
I've got a new three wood which is working a treat right now, long and straight and sounds exactly what you need for such a hole.

Yep, pretty much. I do need to have my long clubs looked at/assessed. I think my irons have improved this year and I'm striking them with more confidence. At the top of my bag I trust my rescue pretty much most of the time. My 3 wood, not so much. My driver has it's days and its off days. Trouble is, on the off days the 3 wood doesn't offer that much extra comfort. I think it's more me than the clubs. I need to spend a significant amount of time on driver & 3 wood practice to build more confidence with them.

I should be able to make a bit of an assessment this coming weekend, 36 holer at Trevose off the back pegs (7100 yds). That's a lot of drivers and opportunities to hit quite a few 3 woods and hybrid 2nd shots...or chicken out with lay ups and try and single putt or accept some bogeys .

What did you go for 3 wood wise Super?

I have the same 3 wood as my driver. Mavrik. Absolute bomb.

super_realist wrote:70% of shots are within 150 yards, says it all really and something I'm going to focus on more this winter.

Has anyone worked out what their new handicap will be under the new system?

Just using course rating (which seems like roughly sss) it will be about 4. But no idea how to take into account css. Some of my top 8 scores are from days with higher css, at least 2 were from days when css was 2 above sss. So should be just under 4. Either way I don't think it will come out as <3.5.

Will you still be scratch super?

McLaren wrote:

super_realist wrote:70% of shots are within 150 yards, says it all really and something I'm going to focus on more this winter.

Has anyone worked out what their new handicap will be under the new system?

Just using course rating (which seems like roughly sss) it will be about 4. But no idea how to take into account css. Some of my top 8 scores are from days with higher css, at least 2 were from days when css was 2 above sss. So should be just under 4. Either way I don't think it will come out as <3.5.

Will you still be scratch super?

I should be Mac, I have 8 of my last 20 scores as 73 or lower, but like you say depends how the course rating works.
However I'm glad that I made it to scratch in the current system briefly.

Also, is it just me or could your handicap index swing quite a lot if good scores drop out the 20 (and you have a rough patch) and then maybe a month or so later you score well again?

McLaren wrote:Also, is it just me or could your handicap index swing quite a lot if good scores drop out the 20 (and you have a rough patch) and then maybe a month or so later you score well again?

I think you can put a score in whenever you want so with the lack of intensity of a medal round you could probably have some better scores rather than a rash of poor ones.

So basically can you just make all your bounce games supplementary scores?

McLaren wrote:So basically can you just make all your bounce games supplementary scores?

Well I think you have to sign in prior to your round to stop it being a cheats charter but apparently you can even add nine hole scores.

When I have played with Americans' at St Andrews I have always found them to be less good than their equivalent CONGU handicaps figure so it might be you go up less frequently than our current system.

Ok, so some thought will need to go into when you enter a score into the system. Basically if you are playing well that week just enter a few rounds into the system and capitalize on good play.

My club is sending out emails once a week to advise us on all the myriad of changes going to take place. Just found out that there is another one - PCC - or Playing Conditions Calculation. It's like CSS but you don't need a competition for it to take effect. Don't ask me any more.

super_realist wrote:I have the same 3 wood as my driver. Mavrik. Absolute bomb.

Hope so Super. Just bought a set of Mavrik "woods". My holiday to the USA has been postponed sowhen I got my flight and hotels refund I splurged them on a set of woods. Went for a fitting, and the first club he gave me to test was a Mavrik driver. It went miles. I said, "That will do. Where do I pay?" Pro made me try other makes but none felt as good. Pity I have been laid up and not had the chance to play with them yet.

I'm never wrong wrote:My club is sending out emails once a week to advise us on all the myriad of changes going to take place. Just found out that there is another one - PCC - or Playing Conditions Calculation. It's like CSS but you don't need a competition for it to take effect. Don't ask me any more. :D

Ok so this is what I was wondering about before. Two or three of my top 8 are definitely from days when the css was higher than normal, does that mean the system will apply the PCC? If not, it now makes no sense to play a round if the weather or some other factors make that day of play harder than normal.

Yes Mac. Thats why your handicap will not be available for a period of time. If PCC is accounted for, there must be a number of other players submitting a card to get a feel of the conditions Or a comp.

Ok, so to get a PPC adjustment your are essentially going to have to play a comp otherwise there won't be enough cards submitted on the day to change PCC. Meaning if you go for a supplementary round you should make sure the wind isn't up or something because a PCC probably won't be activated.

My club said it only needed 8 cards to make the PCC "active". I don't know about your club, but we struggle to get tee times any day of the week, so if we say that's >100 people playing, I think 10 would put a card in.

Our tee is pretty full most days with the retired guys but I doubt they will be playing to hand cards in. They sort of have their own games and stuff going on.


Although the more I think about it the more it makes sense to hand in multiple cards a week. I usually play two 18 hole midweek rounds in the summer so might as well keep score under the new system.

My theory is that playing with a card in hand for handicap becomes as easy going as all the other bounce games I play. My bounce game handicap is easily a few shots less than my actual one. So I turn my bounce handicap into my actual handicap.

Another thing that is apparent to me is that getting cut once you get to cat 1 will be a lot easier under the new system.  I will admit I just didn't play enough comps or have enough talent to chip away 0.1 to get much below 4. Getting from 5 to 4, and then 3 is so much harder than getting from higher single figures down to cat 1.

But now you don't have to chip away you just have to hit a purple patch. There are definitely two week periods where I could play 5 or 6 rounds to a 2 or 3 handicap (but under the current system that purple patch might only cover one or two comps, and therefore result in a 0.4 or so cut at best). Now if I start handing in all my scores I will eventually get that patch into the system and get a way lower handicap.  Then just stop handing in supplementary rounds to protect what you "fluked" and go back to only putting medal rounds on your handicap.

Essentially I see the strategy for getting a big cut under the new system as start of by handing everything in and wait until you hit some form, then when you think you are about to start playing worse stop handing everything in. You then have a higher proportion of your rounds in the last 20 from your in form period.

Mac, no point in NIT handing cards in. Habdicap is based on best 8 scores in previous 20, so the bad rounds will be ignored. Unless your non purple patch goes on a long time......

Does the new system allow people under two handicap to hand in random scores when you want? The current system does not allow supplementaries like this.

The big problem I can see with this system is that you'll get a lot more people putting out the gimmes, which might make golf even slower.

McLaren wrote:Our tee is pretty full most days with the retired guys but I doubt they will be playing to hand cards in. They sort of have their own games and stuff going on.


Although the more I think about it the more it makes sense to hand in multiple cards a week. I usually play two 18 hole midweek rounds in the summer so might as well keep score under the new system.

My theory is that playing with a card in hand for handicap becomes as easy going as all the other bounce games I play. My bounce game handicap is easily a few shots less than my actual one. So I turn my bounce handicap into my actual handicap.

Another thing that is apparent to me is that getting cut once you get to cat 1 will be a lot easier under the new system.  I will admit I just didn't play enough comps or have enough talent to chip away 0.1 to get much below 4. Getting from 5 to 4, and then 3 is so much harder than getting from higher single figures down to cat 1.

But now you don't have to chip away you just have to hit a purple patch. There are definitely two week periods where I could play 5 or 6 rounds to a 2 or 3 handicap (but under the current system that purple patch might only cover one or two comps, and therefore result in a 0.4 or so cut at best). Now if I start handing in all my scores I will eventually get that patch into the system and get a way lower handicap.  Then just stop handing in supplementary rounds to protect what you "fluked" and go back to only putting medal rounds on your handicap.

Essentially I see the strategy for getting a big cut under the new system as start of by handing everything in and wait until you hit some form, then when you think you are about to start playing worse stop handing everything in. You then have a higher proportion of your rounds in the last 20 from your in form period.

I think to a point you’re right, some people will learn quite quickly how to “game” the system to suit their agenda. Whether that be to go higher to be bandits at handicap matchplay or big handicap stroke play tournaments. Then there will be others who want to be lower whether for kudos, ego or qualifying for big scratch tournaments on top courses, they will be more inclined to take a MAC like approach. The former is pretty easy if a bit tedious under the current system. The new system will make it easier. The latter is a lot more difficult under the current system, the new system will make it easier. In essence the new handicap system will make it easier for people to manipulate their handicap if they really really want to.

In my experience the new system which has been used by septics for years results in a comparably lower handicap than if they were on CONGU.
So expect to be cut and easier to maintain it. If some of these Yanks I've seen are the handicap they claim to be then I'm looking forward to being a + handicap golfer.

I'm never wrong wrote:Mac, no point in NIT handing cards in. Habdicap is based on best 8 scores in previous 20, so the bad rounds will be ignored. Unless your non purple patch goes on a long time......

I thought about that but I play quite a lot in the summer. 20 rounds could easily only cover 2 months (if we take my 2-3 card rounds a week goal). I would like to ensure my purple patch stayed in the 20 longer than that.



Jas

I am not sure why I want my handicap to be as low as possible, I guess it is validation that you are getting better or it is something to benchmark how good you can get.


Super

I think anyone can hand a card in now, as someone mentioned earlier even 9 holes will do.



I spoke to an older guy the other day and he claimed a system similar to the new one used to exist several decades ago. And that was where the idea that your handicap should reflect your best play not your average play. I find the current system and it's 0.1 increases takes into account how often you have a bad day rather than just focusing on how good you can be.

Can anyone confirm whether or not there was previously a different system?

McLaren wrote:

Jas

I am not sure why I want my handicap to be as low as possible, I guess it is validation that you are getting better or it is something to benchmark how good you can get.  

For me there’s an element of being the best you can be but also, the fact is the deeper into Cat1 you go the More scratch Opens on Top courses open up. I like that element of trying to compete on tough courses with better players.

Only just got in to our County Champs this year (as a reserve), initially it balloted out at 5.5 and I went up to 5.6 the day before the cut off.

McLaren wrote:

I'm never wrong wrote:Mac, no point in NIT handing cards in. Habdicap is based on best 8 scores in previous 20, so the bad rounds will be ignored. Unless your non purple patch goes on a long time......

I thought about that but I play quite a lot in the summer. 20 rounds could easily only cover 2 months (if we take my 2-3 card rounds a week goal). I would like to ensure my purple patch stayed in the 20 longer than that.



Jas

I am not sure why I want my handicap to be as low as possible, I guess it is validation that you are getting better or it is something to benchmark how good you can get.  


Super

I think anyone can hand a card in now, as someone mentioned earlier even 9 holes will do.



I spoke to an older guy the other day and he claimed a system similar to the new one used to exist several decades ago. And that was where the idea that your handicap should reflect your best play not your average play. I find the current system and it's 0.1 increases takes into account how often you have a bad day rather than just focusing on how good you can be.

Can anyone confirm whether or not there was previously a different system?

Why would you not know why you want your handicap to be as low as possible? You wouldn't want to be less able bodied, so why would you want or settle or seek to maintain a higher handicap?

So mental prep for a 36 hole event on Sunday when the weather prediction is wind 25 gusting to 45mph and driving rain.

I’d hazard a guess 90% of the field won’t fancy it and a significant number will NR. It’ll almost certainly be R/O so no need to worry about a 0.2 handicap increase. Easy does it and don’t do anything rash. Embrace the conditions and watch others lose it.

JAS wrote:So mental prep for a 36 hole event on Sunday when the weather prediction is wind 25 gusting to 45mph and driving rain.

I’d hazard a guess 90% of the field won’t fancy it and a significant number will NR. It’ll almost certainly be R/O so no need to worry about a 0.2 handicap increase. Easy does it and don’t do anything rash. Embrace the conditions and watch others lose it.

Got a similar forecast here Jas, but I'm not sure I fancy it, just no pleasure playing in conditions like that.

Jas

I know I have said it before and you thought I was just winding you up, but you need to relax your approach and not act like a pro while playing off 8.

Why are you evening thinking about mental prep? Just turn up and make sure you concentrate when on the course. Starting to think about it too in depth days before you play is just heaping more pressure on yourself.

McLaren wrote:Jas

I know I have said it before and you thought I was just winding you up, but you need to relax your approach and not act like a pro while playing off 8.

Why are you evening thinking about mental prep? Just turn up and make sure you concentrate when on the course. Starting to think about it too in depth days before you play is just heaping more pressure on yourself.

Maybe if you did a bit more mental prep then you might be lower too Mac?

Doubt it super. I think I pretty much max out my current skills. Would need a lot of short game practice to get much better.

The one thing I think I am quite good at is sticking in and getting the lowest score I can for how I am playing on the day.

McLaren wrote:Jas

I know I have said it before and you thought I was just winding you up, but you need to relax your approach and not act like a pro while playing off 8.

Why are you evening thinking about mental prep? Just turn up and make sure you concentrate when on the course. Starting to think about it too in depth days before you play is just heaping more pressure on yourself.

I get it that we are very different. And most of your posts do generally contain an element of wind up.

You don’t think preparation is important then, and mental preparation you don’t value at all?

McLaren wrote:Doubt it super. I think I pretty much max out my current skills. Would need a lot of short game practice to get much better.

The one thing I think I am quite good at is sticking in and getting the lowest score I can for how I am playing on the day.

Do you never go in with a game plan or think about contingencies for weather conditions or a bad shot?
It's part of course management Mac, and it's a good idea to have an idea before you get on the course.

Pretty sure I won't from 5 to 3 on course management alone.

McLaren wrote:Doubt it super. I think I pretty much max out my current skills. Would need a lot of short game practice to get much better.

The one thing I think I am quite good at is sticking in and getting the lowest score I can for how I am playing on the day.

Ok then as a lover of “evidence based” what’s your evidence for getting the lowest score you can on the day? What stats if any do you gather to substantiate your evidence?

Super

As I said I think I am good at keeping my score as low as possible. This includes planning, course management, contingencies, working with the swing you have on the day etc. I am just not going through mental preparations days ahead of a round. Are you really telling me that you are preparing yourself midweek for the comp on Saturday?

JAS wrote:

McLaren wrote:Doubt it super. I think I pretty much max out my current skills. Would need a lot of short game practice to get much better.

The one thing I think I am quite good at is sticking in and getting the lowest score I can for how I am playing on the day.

Ok then as a lover of “evidence based” what’s your evidence for getting the lowest score you can on the day? What stats if any do you gather to substantiate your evidence?

Jas I would love for you to be right on this but sadly I think I am squeezing everything out my game to be high'ish cat 1. But sadly I think I manage my game quite well and there isn't a way for me to get to 2 or 3 just on how I approach a round.

What in your game prevents you going lower Mac? Is it a lack of talent or is something else impacting your score?

McLaren wrote:

JAS wrote:

McLaren wrote:Doubt it super. I think I pretty much max out my current skills. Would need a lot of short game practice to get much better.

The one thing I think I am quite good at is sticking in and getting the lowest score I can for how I am playing on the day.

Ok then as a lover of “evidence based” what’s your evidence for getting the lowest score you can on the day? What stats if any do you gather to substantiate your evidence?

Jas I would love for you to be right on this but sadly I think I am squeezing everything out my game to be high'ish cat 1. But sadly I think I manage my game quite well and there isn't a way for me to get to 2 or 3 just on how I approach a round.

I pretty much think the opposite for me, I always think I can be better and I keep searching for things to make it so, I actually enjoy the process of the search. Am I frequently disappointed? Yes of course I am, who isn’t in golf? but dealing with disappointment and then using it it part & parcel of it.

6 years or so ago I used to practice practice practice as I lived on my own. It’s taken me a while to get back anywhere near where I want to be. I have much less time to practice now so the practice I do have is much more focussed and part of that is analysing what goes wrong and working on it before the next round. In addition to that I spend time working out how best to prepare, what works what doesn’t so grooving out a pre round routine and arriving on the 1st tee knowing I’m good to go.

I'm similar Jas, I thought I may well have reached a point from which I couldn't improve, however I had a run of holes the other week where I could have and should have been - 6 through 5 holes instead of - 4, which in itself showed me something.

You also have to bear in mind that Mac doesn't believe in club fitting, buys his balls from jumble sales, doesn't think there's such a thing as sports psychology and doesn't think about how he is going to plot his way round the course. No wonder he hasn't got any lower.

super_realist wrote:I'm similar Jas, I thought I may well have reached a point from which I couldn't improve, however I had a run of holes the other week where I could have and should have been - 6 through 5 holes instead of - 4, which in itself showed me something.

You also have to bear in mind that Mac doesn't believe in club fitting, buys his balls from jumble sales, doesn't think there's such a thing as sports psychology and doesn't think about how he is going to plot his way round the course. No wonder he hasn't got any lower.

In reality maybe he’s more talented than all of us but because of all you mention above, he’s miles off his potential. I find it intriguing/amusing that he thinks he’s getting the best he can out of himself.

Even getting a bus to the course can’t help :-p

JAS wrote:

super_realist wrote:I'm similar Jas, I thought I may well have reached a point from which I couldn't improve, however I had a run of holes the other week where I could have and should have been - 6 through 5 holes instead of - 4, which in itself showed me something.

You also have to bear in mind that Mac doesn't believe in club fitting, buys his balls from jumble sales, doesn't think there's such a thing as sports psychology and doesn't think about how he is going to plot his way round the course. No wonder he hasn't got any lower.

In reality maybe he’s more talented than all of us but because of all you mention above, he’s miles off his potential. I find it intriguing/amusing that he thinks he’s getting the best he can out of himself.

Even getting a bus to the course can’t help :-p

There's certainly marginal gains to be made, but Mac doesn't seem to want them. Maybe Mac is actually Maverick from the old board. He thought he was too good for advice too.

I think i like how I play my golf too much to go down the practice route. In the summer I play 2-3 bounce games on weekday evenings and play the comps on saturday. And often another 18 on sunday. I couldn't play more golf but I could change what type of golf I play by doing more practice rather than playing rounds.

But i don't see the joy in exchanging playing with my mates for spending time on the range or short game area just doing drills. It is not uncommon that I can go the whole summer season without hitting a ball on the range. I play golf mainly for enjoyment. On a good day I can play to level par and that is enough to make me happy.

I may well be fortunate that my baseline ability is what it is but I really don't think I could get any better unless I got coaching and transitioned to way more hours on the range. As it stands I use what talent i have coupled to exceptional course management and planning to shoot some decent scores.

I don't think you need to spend too much time practicing Mac, I used to practice way too much and ended up going backwards, then I got lessons regularly and supplement it with a bit of practice.
I'm playing better golf by practicing less and  enjoying it more because I've got a wider range of skills to get round the course.

I can understand why you might feel you don't want to do that, but unless you're birdieing every hole every time you go out, you haven't got close to your potential. The game of golf is such that we will never reach it, but it can be fun trying to get there as long as it doesn't get in the way of your life.

Super

I don't practice at all, not sure how I could practice any less than that?

I obviously prefer to be on the course, but I really enjoy the practice as well.

I Just don’t understand why somebody at your level Mac wouldn’t want to put in at least some practice or even recognise the value of practice. That just seems odd.

JAS wrote:I Just don’t understand why somebody at your level Mac wouldn’t want to put in at least some practice or  even recognise the value of practice. That just seems odd.

I can understand it as everyone plays for different reasons, but if that's the case that you don't want to practice, don't claim you've reached a level where you can't get any further from.

In regards to practice too, I think most people practice very poorly and focus on the wrong parts.

Super

But I have reached a level where I can't get much better based on how I spend my time playing the game. Plus in the summer I am hitting a lot of shots a week just not on the range.


Jas

I don't dismiss the value of practice I just have no interest in changing how I spend my time playing the game. If nothing else it would be a poor look to abandon some of my regular bounce games to spend time on the range.

Anyway in the winter I try and go to the range once a week and I have never come out in the spring swinging it any better. The thing that has kept my game going over the winter the last couple of seasons has been playing more winter golf. I used to down clubs in November and not touch them until march. Getting on the course every couple of weeks when there is a gap in the weather has been useful.

Surprised your "wife" puts up with you playing so much Mac.

We don't have kids so not like we have much responsibilities with time. And getting married doesn't have to mean spending all your time together, if that is what worries you about it? The killer as far as I can tell is making the mistake of having children.

McLaren wrote:We don't have kids so not like we have much responsibilities with time.  And getting married doesn't have to mean spending all your time together, if that is what worries you about it?  The killer as far as I can tell is making the mistake of having children.

Are you under pressure to do so Mac? I can't think of anything worse than having children personally. I'm far too selfish.

Super

I am currently under no pressure thankfully. Like you I am too selfish. I meet friends with kids and they ask incredulously "How come you have so much time to play golf or play playstation". The answer is simple. Every evening and weekend are yours if you don't have kids.

Like you I am too selfish to give that up. Plus I hate children.

McLaren wrote:Super

I am currently under no pressure thankfully. Like you I am too selfish. I meet friends with kids and they ask incredulously "How come you have so much time to play golf or play playstation". The answer is simple. Every evening and weekend are yours if you don't have kids.

Like you I am too selfish to give that up. Plus I hate children.

Ha ha, there appears to be this misapprehension that you are required to have children. I don't see that at all. In fact I think there's a vocal movement of women who are public about their non desire for children and they get terrible abuse for it.

There are far too many sub humans already over populating this planet.
It's amazing that you have to have licence to do certain things but you are allowed to have as many children as you like, regardless of how scummy you are, how unintelligent and how incapable you are of paying for and taking care of them. Dreadfully unfair on the children.