QF1 - Match Thread - England v Australia - 19/10/19 - K/O 08:15 BST

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd get these made nice and early for a few reasons - but one being that we're already now looking ahead to the QFs with several teams having finished their group stage, so it's all heating up for the proper knockout stuff...barring any more disruption.

England



Team: Daly; Watson, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell (capt), Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler; Itoje, Lawes; Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Ludlam, Heinz, Ford, Joseph.


Australia



Team: Beale; Hodge, Petaia, Kerevi, Koroibete; Lealiifano, Genia; Alaalatoa, Latu, Sio; Arnold, Rodda; Naisarani, Hooper (c), Pocock.

Replacements: Uelese, Slipper, Tupou, Coleman, Salakaia-Loto, White, To'omua, O'Connor.



Venue: Oita
Referee: Jerome Garces
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Mathieu Raynal
TMO: Ben Skeen

[Guest]

He has put in a huge number of barnstorming displays at 13 over the last decade. He has managed less than a handful of decent performances at 12.

This seems fictional considering how often he plays for England. Club level's a mostly different beast.

Miaow, this came up on the last thread where you seemed unconvinced about Manu at 13. Strongly suggest you go back and read the responses there rather than have everyone repeat what they said here. If nothing else, just look at what shirt he was wearing when England beat New Zealand in 2012, which is widely regarded as a defining match for the player.

I feel I've now elaborated on that - not that I think Tuilagi is unconvincing at 13 (that's the narrative being WUMmed, sure, and posters then read that as if it's truth), just makes much more sense within the context of England to play him at 12. I've literally said for over 12 months that Tuilagi will be the difference for England and without him they wouldn't win the RWC, but with him, they stand a great chance. With the cancelled game that becomes vastly more likely. There is nuance to my answer about 10-12-13 if people gave it the time of day. However, I only brought it up as I was effectively referred to - the conversation hasn't died if other people are still bringing it up.

As for NZ, wasn't Twelvetrees at 12 that day? Would you advocate selecting him? If not, why not etc. Not sure that's a great answer - and aligns to my point above about fans getting an idea 'stuck' in their head based on success - players/positions/units that then are 'the answer' because they worked that one time or that one series. It's a bit Gatland esque, in fact - like constantly picking and hoping for the same result over and over even if there are clear arguments that change would benefit the team.

which kinda suggested that Ford/Farrell was the first choice axis and was effective.

You're correct about what I was saying about 'top' sides. He hasn't done it for a while. Less so about me taking an extreme view to make a point. Just not sure people give me the time of day tbh and don't take what I say at face value, which is a shame. The France game might have been more interesting in terms of Ford @ 10 - had Argentina kept 15 on the field it would have been more telling.

One thing I'd pick up on though is first choice - everything EJ does suggests there is no first choice. There are genuine options. Yes, within reason - Itoje is always going to be first pick, as is Farrell, Tuilagi, Youngs, and perhaps one or two others like George and Billy. But it's not just personnel and positions, it's styles. England basically have two main games - kicking, and running. Two very different options. They then also have the physical power and, crucially, the set piece, which is absolutely paramount to any English success. The way they're lining up suggests kicking from the start v Australia - box kicking from Youngs, not playing ANYTHING in their own half, certainly not overeplaying, and lots of grubbers and chips and long, straight kicks by Farrell to be chased by Daly, May, Watson, and Slade.

It's a case of picking your tactics - I cannot see England opting for the 'running' game from the 1st minute v any opposition now. It makes far more sense to start with the kicking game, while playing primarily off 9 when they get the ball around the oppositions 10m line. The real running option of Ford is then available from the bench, but that's really dumbing things down - it's not like Slade isn't a classy runner and distributor himself.

[Guest]

Lol. No substance to back it up. You've been asked which games at 13 you're basing your view that tuilagi is better at 12 and can't. Soil asked you a question and you side stepped. Lazy indeed.

I've answered this several times - the first time several months ago. Any more reptition has to be considered trolling, so - apologies in advance mods - I'll report it every time you mention it again. You can't keep asking over and over and over something someone else has both answered, and doesn't want to talk about again. That's the epitome of derailing a thread.

There is a lot of projection going on there. There are also well written and evidence based arguments in this and previous threads that support my views which I am not capable of improving on. As far as I can see you have an opinion that at best is based on a very subjective reading of the evidence. Shear quantity of words does not reinforce that opinion.

This is also a distraction from the discussion of the game and as such I am quite happy to agree to disagree and to now leave this alone.

You don't need to be a pychologist to know what 'sigh' and starting a sentence with 'well' is intended to do. Likewise 'gaslighting' has entered the public vernacular now as well...

[Poorfour]

At this stage of the RWC, you only have really good teams playing other really good teams. They'll have done their homework on your playing style, and they'll be alert to any tricks you've used earlier in the tournament. Games tend to be close and tense because teams know how to nullify each other's plays, and the question of which players are fully fit becomes very important.

Eddie has three big luxuries on his side:
1) England have close to a fully fit squad
2) England probably have the best squad depth in the tournament, alongside NZ. They mix up the starting team and the bench and change their playing style without making much change to playing quality
3) He's got this far without having give much away tactically.

I think he's got specific gameplans worked up for each game. This one's tailored to Australia. Win, and we might see something different next week (though if Ireland pull off an historic victory, we could well see the same XV deployed again but with slightly different tactics).

[propdavid_london]

From what I have heard...there is a lot of rain out there.
Pitches are likely to be heavy and wet...….so a kicking game may well pay dividends.

[No 7&1/2]

Ypure never answered the question miaow. Simply asking which game(s) of tuilagi playing at 13 you were referencing. You said it's the ireland game in the 6ns for his performance at 12. Dont understand why you won't clarify?

[robbo277]

Truth is we STILL have not found Greenwood's replacement;
Barrett
Twelvetrees
Eastmond
Farrell
Some kiwi ive never seen do anything vaguely club level who carries Jonses bags
And now we're moving our best strike weapon to cover this coaching selection failure. Call as it is, its a humiliating compromise that Frak us all ends up.....unless ofcourse Slade and Tuilagi swap round?

"Greenwood's replacement" is an odd thing to say. We shouldn't be playing to 2003's template 16 years on.

[robbo277]

That is what will I believe will happen  during the game King.
Second and subsequent phase ball Slade will effectively be inside centre after Manu has punched a hole or taken out some defenders on a dummy run.

My worry, based on the 6Ns, is that when we have a full attacking line Manu will usually be a decoy runner. In multi phase play he will spend too much of the game in the role of ruck inspector, and when the attack is split either side we will see Manu at first receiver one side but the ball going the other way where Farrell/Slade are first and second receivers.

As per Matt Toomua's recent interview you can't give Manu space and have to close him down. That's a bit easier with him being closer in to the action. I'd imagine in set piece defence Pocock will be man marking Manu. As you say in phase play he won't see enough worthwhile ball. I worry the lessons haven't been learnt from the 6N.

But the plan could be to play behind and around Manu and use the not inconsiderable talents of Slade, May, Watson and Daly in those wide channels. Slade poking kicks through, turning the Aussie line for May and Watson to chase, Daly joining the line and - with Manu holding those inside - turning a two on two into a three on two. Pocock is at 6 so if Manu can interest the 12 and Hooper on a decoy line then you've got Slade on Petaia, Watson holding Hodge wide and Daly stepping up into the line. If Beale comes up too Slade can put it in behind, if Beale stays back then Slade can fix his man and create a 2-on-1.

It may not be Manu's best position, but he will be there to do a job for the team. Then, in phase play or with a change in tactics in the second half, they might try and get him the ball in a bit more space.

[mikey_dragon]

Ypure never answered the question miaow. Simply asking which game(s) of tuilagi playing at 13 you were referencing.  You said it's the ireland game in the 6ns for his performance at 12. Dont understand why you won't clarify?

Lol why did this get complained about?

[Poorfour]

"Greenwood's replacement" is an odd thing to say. We shouldn't be playing to 2003's template 16 years on.

Yes, but it’s a fair point. Greenwood is the player we have yet to replace from the 2003 squad. You could make an argument for nearly all the 2019 players versus their 2003 equivalents, but we have never really had another IC with Greenwood’s mix of physicality, distribution and vision. In some ways Farrell is the closest - but he’s better suited to fly half and is more of an executor in the Wilkinson mode than a creative pivot like Greenwood.

The other candidate is Slade - who has the pace, vision and physicality, but whose best position is OC. That still leaves us with a need for a suitable 12.

[BamBam]

Ypure never answered the question miaow. Simply asking which game(s) of tuilagi playing at 13 you were referencing.  You said it's the ireland game in the 6ns for his performance at 12. Dont understand why you won't clarify?

Lol why did this get complained about?

After whinging about being given the red bar on another thread, miaow is reporting every post calling him out in this one

[mikey_dragon]

Farrell, Tuilagi and Slade looked really good in the 6N, probably the best I've seen the England midfield in a long time. There's always the option of moving Farrell and Tuilagi over one spot each and bring Ford on at fly-half. Both are really good options, but reliant on Tuilagi who has struggled with a lot of injuries in the not too distant past. Have Farrell and Slade played together in the centres?

[BamBam]

Farrell, Tuilagi and Slade looked really good in the 6N, probably the best I've seen the England midfield in a long time. There's always the option of moving Farrell and Tuilagi over one spot each and bring Ford on at fly-half. Both are really good options, but reliant on Tuilagi who has struggled with a lot of injuries in the not too distant past. Have Farrell and Slade played together in the centres?

Farrell - Tuilagi - Slade was the midfield in every 6N game other than Italy this season, with varying degrees of success. Pretty sure Ford will be on for the last 20 mins in any scenario, whether to close out the game with his tactical kicking or to chase it with the dual playmakers

[robbo277]

At this stage of the RWC, you only have really good teams playing other really good teams. They'll have done their homework on your playing style, and they'll be alert to any tricks you've used earlier in the tournament. Games tend to be close and tense because teams know how to nullify each other's plays, and the question of which players are fully fit becomes very important.

Not if you believe them, they haven't.

"Greenwood's replacement" is an odd thing to say. We shouldn't be playing to 2003's template 16 years on.

Yes, but it’s a fair point. Greenwood is the player we have yet to replace from the 2003 squad. You could make an argument for nearly all the 2019 players versus their 2003 equivalents, but we have never really had another IC with Greenwood’s mix of physicality, distribution and vision. In some ways Farrell is the closest - but he’s better suited to fly half and is more of an executor in the Wilkinson mode than a creative pivot like Greenwood.

The other candidate is Slade - who has the pace, vision and physicality, but whose best position is OC. That still leaves us with a need for a suitable 12.

But do we need an IC with Greenwood's mix of physicality, distribution and vision? What about Nonu's mix of physicality, distribution and vision? Started off with just the first one and developed the latter two the point he was the best all-round centre by RWC 2015. They were very different players, but both were probably the best 12s going in their time.

I get that 12 has been a problem position for us for a while, but I don't think we should necessarily be looking for the next Greenwood. We should be looking for someone who can play 12 in our system. And currently it looks like we're operating two systems, one that Farrell fits in to and one that Tuilagi fits in to.

I guess what is being said is that we need a combination player that can seamlessly switch between both styles? But I think if we want to find another Greenwood we could spend the next 16 years finding a player who can do every single facet to a very good standard as Greenwood could. That's not what we have now, but who does? Parkes and Henshaw are solid all rounders but aren't top playmakers, Fickou is a great athlete but possibly lacks the distribution and vision, Kerevi is a big carrier but again doesn't have that all-round game, De Allande and Lienart-Brown are two very good inside centres but neither are overly physical, not like a Tuilagi or a Kerevi.

Even still, I think Greenwood, in the minds of England fans, has got better and better over the last 16 or so years since he's stopped playing. He didn't have Farrell's kicking game, and although a big guy he didn't have Tuilagi-levels of physicality. He was a very good player, but at some point the love-in has to stop!

[lostinwales]

I do think Greenwood was a superb player, and did so at the time he was playing. But the game moves on. As you imply you want the player that in 10 years time everyone says we need to replace.

[Gooseberry]

The other point with Greenwood is he only got 55 caps , some of them with the Lions and some a as replacement. he was a breif moment in history.

But the truth is that England havent had anyone whos genuinely nailed down the inside center position for an extended period since him and its consistently been a point of weakness for much of that period.  The closest recently was Farrell who played there most games during 2 years of success, albeit as a happy accident. "Replacing him" doesnt have to mean finding a clone, but does note that they havent had a world class 12 since. 

 Its kind of understandable in that context that people are having a hard time letting go of the idea that Ford Farrell should be the first choice, it worked as well as anything England have tried for an extended period post Wilko Greenwood. 

But Tuillagi has a lot going for him there too, especially with Slade outside him. Hes certainly a player who deserves to be found a place on the pitch.

[Guest]

Ypure never answered the question miaow. Simply asking which game(s) of tuilagi playing at 13 you were referencing.  You said it's the ireland game in the 6ns for his performance at 12. Dont understand why you won't clarify?

Lol why did this get complained about?

After whinging about being given the red bar on another thread, miaow is reporting every post calling him out in this one

Calling out/WUMming/dare I say it - harrassment and bullying like a few months ago? You want to read your contributions to this site, Bam. Doubt you - or the vast majority of keyboard warriors - behave this way off screen.

[BamBam]

Poor little miaow. Just a shame your last flounce didn't last a bit longer

[Guest]

De Allande and Lienart-Brown are two very good inside centres but neither are overly physical, not like a Tuilagi or a Kerevi.

To reiterate the point about whether a player plays 12 or 13 tends not to matter too much depending on the system, ALB has been playing 13 for the ABs, with Crotty at 12. He's now been swapped over for the Ireland game.

[Guest]

Poor little miaow. Just a shame your last flounce didn't last a bit longer

I can't believe you're 30 years old.

[BamBam]

Poor little miaow. Just a shame your last flounce didn't last a bit longer

I can't believe you're 30 years old.

Neither can I tbh.

I just try not to take myself too seriously on the internet. Give it a go

[Rugby Fan]

Eddi needs to take the temperature of the country he is in. Talking about life and death in rugby terms right now highly inappropriate.

At the team announcement press conference, he read out a message of sympathy and support for victims of the typhoon in Japanese. which has been well-received locally. I don't think there's anyone in Japan who thinks Jones is being inappropriate.

Yes there is, I have family there and it has already been remarked upon that calling these games 'life and death' is not appropriate in the circumstances. only an idiot in Japan would do so and think otherwise

If you have family here, then you'll know that talk and writing about sport in Japan is filled with warfare and life or death imagery. You'll find no-one over here is offended by what Jones said on that score.

[No 7&1/2]

You believe I'm bullying you by asking you to name which game at 12 you were basing your judgment of tuilagi on? That's not my intention miaow. I will keep asking you until you just say though. I think its fair enough to ask that on topic question.

[Guest]

You believe I'm bullying you by asking you to name which game at 12 you were basing your judgment of tuilagi on? That's not my intention miaow. I will keep asking you until you just say though. I think its fair enough to ask that on topic question.

No, the harassment would be the persistent name calling and character assassination that tends to go on in between international periods as the same old faces don't have anything better to do. I'd say you're doing what you always do, a subtle derailing of a thread - more in the realms of WUMming than bullying. If there's anything in your credit, I don't believe I've ever seen you bully anyone on here.

[lostinwales]

I just really hope that this time tomorrow the discussion will be back to what happened in the game and not 'he said - she said'. Because this thread is currently unravelling

[Afro]

Enough arguing please, and stick to talking about the game.

We don't want to have to get to the position, especially this close to a fantastic weekend of rugby, of either closing the thread or giving people a temporary ban because you can't stop yourselves getting personal.

[No 7&1/2]

Oh right. No problem then as I dont get involved in name calling. I still would like to know which match your judging tuilagi s outside centre performances on though. It's no derailing as it is a clear topic point along with mako and lawes starting. And ludlow over wilson tbf.

[TightHEAD]

Having just returned from an unjustified ban after several personal attacks I'm at a loss to see the same old posters getting warning after warning!
How many warnings do some of these people need?

Anyway back on topic, I'm not feeling very confident about our chances to be honest. We needed that French game.

[No 7&1/2]

That last post was to miaow not afro.

[Guest]

I've said I'm not answering that, again, 7.5. You can't derail a thread in this way without consequences. Move on. I'm reporting your comment because I want the mods to help stop this getting out of control. It's subtle, but it's still WUMming.

[No 7&1/2]

Ok that's fair. Do us a favour and point me towards the thread you did answer it please. I must have read past it.

[Guest]

Well this has been a horrible thread. Presumably everyone's a bit tense in the lead up.

Odds on for first try scorer? Will England go all out to get another score in the first 3 minutes as they have been so successful at over the last 18 months to 2 years?

I think it's highly likely. I'd say we should be in a repeat for something similar to the Wales v Oz game, but more explosive from England. More try based, more looking for clinical plays and chance creation than consistent attack. It's then up to Australia to respond at pace.

[robbo277]

Well this has been a horrible thread. Presumably everyone's a bit tense in the lead up.

Odds on for first try scorer? Will England go all out to get another score in the first 3 minutes as they have been so successful at over the last 18 months to 2 years?

I think it's highly likely. I'd say we should be in a repeat for something similar to the Wales v Oz game, but more explosive from England. More try based, more looking for clinical plays and chance creation than consistent attack. It's then up to Australia to respond at pace.

I have a few low stakes bets on.

England to win by 1-10 points, Johnny May to score a try at any time and there to be a red card in the game @ 33/1 (£3)
Both teams to score 30 points or more and England to win the match @ 25/1 (£4)
England to score a try in the first 5 minutes of the match @ 7/2 (£10)
Mako Vunipola to score 1st & England to win @ 80/1 (this is more an inside joke than a serious bet, but I have painted myself into a corner where I have to back it every time just in case it happens)

If any of them come in I'll do alright out of it and be up overall. Really hoping for that first 5 minutes one (especially if it's Mako) as it will settle everything quite quickly in betting world and also put a lot of pressure onto the Aussies to come back.

Even if none of them come in, I'll be fine as long as England win...

[No 7&1/2]

Didn't realise pocock will retire tomorrow. Helluva player. If anything underrated due to his injuries. In my mind better than McCaw.

[Guest]

Weird to retire mid tournament. Have to assume he'd keep playing for the semi final if Australia win...

[SecretFly]

Because he's retiring tomorrow, all pressure will be off him. All concerns about managing niggling injuries to keep his career going, to pay the bills, will be lifted. He'll want to end his career on a high.

..... and if he manages to end his career on a high, he won't be retiring tomorrow

[No 7&1/2]

Hes retiring at the end of Australia s tournament so he can give a goodbye to the fans. Which game at 13 miaow?

[SecretFly]

... and because he won't be ending his career tomorrow, he'll be more cautious as he isn't getting any younger. So he'll stand a little off, won't commit his body so often to the shuddering collisions and his hesitancy will allow England control the aggression levels and win the game
...and so he'll be retiring tomorrow.

He's trapped in a revolving nightmare!

[kingelderfield]

Better than McCaw....nope.

[Gooseberry]

Well let's hope a non fatal monster attack causes the game to get called off and england go through on tried scored in earlier rounds. It's pretty much how they won the cricket world cup and I cant thinking a more fitting send off for Pocock.

[majesticimperialman]

It will be interesting to see the battle between Hooper-Pocock v Curry-Underhill.

To see who come out on top.

Hooper- Pocock with the experience. 

Curry-Underhill with youth on their side.

It is going to be a ding dong battle that is for sure.

[No 7&1/2]

While you're here king adding your wisdom. You going to answer the question about farrell?

[Guest]

Hes retiring at the end of Australia s tournament so he can give a goodbye to the fans. Which game at 13 miaow?

I wish you'd retire from posting on these boards from tomorrow...

[No 7&1/2]

Just because you've been told by several people you're input leaves something to be desired by them miaow doesnt mean you have to start saying that to other people. You're a bully and a hypocrite.
And also which game at 13 were you considering for tuilagi.

[Pie]

Pocock isn't fit to suck McCaw's bootlaces. McCaw is without doubt the best rugby player the wolld ever saw for his consistent durability humility and temperament as much as anything else. How things have changed since he left.

[Guest]

The emoji clearly means it's a joke.

The fact you literally are unable to listen to me when I say stop asking me a question I'm not going to repeat my answer to suggests you're the one with the problem here.

Lighten up, it was just banter...

[No 7&1/2]

And yet constant personal jibes across the board suggests you are a bully miaow. Care to point out where you have answered the question. Or answer it again. As it is I'd say you're lying.

[MightyQuin]

I’m less optimistic about this game with each passing day. Someone reassure me.

[Pie]

And yet constant personal jibes across the board suggests you are a bully miaow. Care to point out where you have answered the question. Or answer it again. As it is I'd say you're lying.

A bully miaow.....my wife has one of those

[Pie]

I’m less optimistic about this game with each passing day. Someone reassure me.

Aussies, but not by much

[Rugby Fan]

And yet constant personal jibes across the board suggests you are a bully miaow. Care to point out where you have answered the question. Or answer it again. As it is I'd say you're lying.

I think we can all safely say that miaow's views on Tuilagi's best centre position are an opinion which is based on the tactical approach miaow prefers England to take, rather than on any evidence of how Tuilagi has actually played in both positions. It's also clear that's not something miaow cares to concede, for whatever reason.

Personally, though I'd rather not see this important match thread degenerate into a rat-cornering exercise so, much as it might pain you to do so, No 7&1/2, let's take the win and close this chapter.

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