QF1 - Match Thread - England v Australia - 19/10/19 - K/O 08:15 BST

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd get these made nice and early for a few reasons - but one being that we're already now looking ahead to the QFs with several teams having finished their group stage, so it's all heating up for the proper knockout stuff...barring any more disruption.

England



Team: Daly; Watson, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell (capt), Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler; Itoje, Lawes; Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Ludlam, Heinz, Ford, Joseph.


Australia



Team: Beale; Hodge, Petaia, Kerevi, Koroibete; Lealiifano, Genia; Alaalatoa, Latu, Sio; Arnold, Rodda; Naisarani, Hooper (c), Pocock.

Replacements: Uelese, Slipper, Tupou, Coleman, Salakaia-Loto, White, To'omua, O'Connor.



Venue: Oita
Referee: Jerome Garces
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Mathieu Raynal
TMO: Ben Skeen

[Taylorman]

Well they’d better hurry up then. 7-6 after 42 vs Uruguay....geez.

[Guest]

No shame. Uruguay are decent, this is their cup final. They're playing for automatic qualification. This Wales team looks like they got here by kayak. A few too players playing with timidity, but by and large, who cares. They'll win the game and they're playing a game - however scrappy it is - that minimises fatigue and injury issues ruling anyone out next week.

[robbo277]

So no surprises this weekend and Australia meet England in quarter-final 1.

Australia have had some very good patches of play throughout the tournament without really putting in an 80 minute performance. Possibly a bit like England in that regard, although England have been able to exert a lot of control through their set piece, defence and kicking game.

If we can hit the ground running in the quarters and get our attacking game going I think we have a decent shot at the tournament. If we rely on our defence I think we could come unstuck along the way.

[majesticimperialman]

England will have to play the full team, Ford and Farrell will have  to start, Manu, at 13.

Australia have blown hot and cold this tournament, but will be up for this game.

With out Foloue ( spelling) Foley is looking nothing like a good player. 

Australia and England will be well focused on this game, so who ever keeps their patience
should win.

[SecretFly]

If it was a 'normal' AI style game in a neutral country right now, you'd probably say England will have too much savvy for a stuttering but quite effective at times Australia.

But this is a WC.  It's a straight knock out contest with a big prize left dangling for the winner.  Those nerves kick in.  Confidence can wilt just as adrenaline can surge.
Both team will have nerves so it might become a test of which side uses them more positively.  Not certain patience always wins out in these contests.  Manic impatience can be an enemy of course but also a friend.  Australia will know they are considered underdogs...but Australia come loaded with lots of dog for just such occasions.

[quinsforever]

anyone can in theory win this. but as against the last RWC (last time Aus won) i think there are big differences in Englands favour

no Folau
refs and TMOs enforcing head height challenges
Pocock nowhere near his 2015 best
no Folau
Foley woeful
Genia a half step slower
Cheika seems to be controlled by aliens
no Folau

it would in my opinion be a real upset for Australia to win. but anything is possible in knockout stages.

[Poorfour]

So basically, Quins, what you’re saying is:

1. No poofter haters. 
   
2. No member of the team is to commit a high tackle in any way whatsoever—if there's anyone watching. 
   
3. No poofter haters. 
   
4. I don't want to catch anyone playing to their 2015 form once the whistle has gone. 
   
5. No poofter haters. 
   
6. There is no rule six. 
   
7. No poofter haters.
   

[SecretFly]

[Taylorman]

Geez these sides meet a lot. How many is that now? 91, 95, 03. 07 ?? Another for England I'd say...

[LondonTiger]

Geez these sides meet a lot. How many is that now? 91, 95, 03. 07 ?? Another for England I'd say...

1987 & 2015 pool stages too. 

England do play Australia a lot recently. Ben Youngs and Lawes have both been in 10 England victories over the Aussies.

[No 7&1/2]

Still sounds as if Billy is touch and go at present for making the game.

[carpet baboon]

England by 14

[robbo277]

Well we beat Australia before with Wilson at 8 and Billy's form hasn't been tip top this World Cup, so I don't think he's the be all and end all that some might think, although obviously it would be better to have him.

[majesticimperialman]

Did England not beat Australia in 2016 white was in Australia?

 And Foloue and Foley were both playing some good rugby too.

[maestegmafia]

Did England not beat Australia in 2016 white was in Australia?

 And Foloue and Foley were both playing some good rugby too.

When you have an issue with spelling something, why not just use a search engine to find the answer?

Israel Folau

[lostinwales]

Folau scored a lot of tries against us. We just scored more.

The best bits of that 2016 series involved wonderful sweeping multiphase moves by Australia slowly working up the pitch, ball going from one side to the other and eventually a score. We get the ball back and work it over the line in what felt like a couple of phases.

[majesticimperialman]

Did England not beat Australia in 2016 white was in Australia?

 And Foloue and Foley were both playing some good rugby too.

When you have an issue with spelling something, why not just use a search engine to find the answer?

Israel Folau

Thank you teacher.

[maestegmafia]

Did England not beat Australia in 2016 white was in Australia?

 And Foloue and Foley were both playing some good rugby too.

When you have an issue with spelling something, why not just use a search engine to find the answer?

Israel Folau

Thank you teacher.

No need for irony when someone is offering you help. That’s a very dislikable trait.

[No 7&1/2]

I agree robbo. Jones may even.go down the line of switching curry to 8 with the option of ludlam or wilson at 6. I'd rather billy gets back to available asap though for if we get onto Ireland or nz.

[BamBam]

I look forward to maes pursuing all spelling and grammatical errors across the forum with such vigour!

[BamBam]

I agree robbo. Jones may even.go down the line of switching curry to 8 with the option of ludlam or wilson at 6. I'd rather billy gets back to available asap though for if we get onto Ireland or nz.

Think I'd prefer as little disruption as possible, would leave the flankers as they are and bring Wilson in at 8. He did a good job there in the AIs from what I remember, and with the Curry / Underhill partnership blossoming I'd want them to carry on with the hope that Billy is back if we get through to the semi finals

Other than that, I think we can all pretty much name 90% of the side. Has there been any news on Marler? I think he was the only other injury concern, and with Slade / Nowell still coming back to full match fitness I'd be surprised if they were put into the starting line up

[No 7&1/2]

He did do well at 8. He was given motm perhaps there. His best performance got a country mile. Marler expected to be fully fit along with slade.

[robbo277]

I think Marler, Billy and Nowell got the name checks as injury doubts in the article I read before the France game. No idea how that has developed since, but you'd think as they were only doubts then they'd be fit this week.

Billy Vunipola may have been downplayed last week and he was in a compression boot, but the other two may be okay.

I think we can all agree on:

???, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Curry, Underhill, ???, Youngs, Ford, May, Farrell, Tuilagi, Watson, Daly
Cowan-Dickie, ???, Cole, Lawes, ???, Heinz, Slade, ???

With the ???s:

Loosehead - if Mako and Marler are both fit you'd think Genge will be the odd man out, but you still have a debate as to who starts. Genge should do all he can to stay sharp, because there's every chance we still might need him this tournament

Number 8 - you'd start Billy, but if he's not fit I'd possibly have Wilson deputise. Either way, I like Ludlam on the bench, and if you start Billy and need to bring him off you can switch Curry to 8 in game.

Back sub - I probably prefer Nowell for this role, but maybe with question marks over both Vunipolas having Cokanasiga as that extra heavy carrier would be more beneficial?

We still potentially have a slight issue with match sharpness. Mako, Wilson, Slade and Nowell are possibly all a little short of minutes. Can we have all of them on the pitch at the same time? Those 4 could easily all be on the bench, would we be too weak at the critical point of the game if we had all 4 players on? I guess it depends how up to speed they are.

[Guest]

Still sounds as if Billy is touch and go at present for making the game.

I personally think that helps them. There's enough talent elsewhere in the team, enough carrying, to offset BV, and you'll gain another defensive/destructive breakdown operator in, presumably, Wilson, to deal with Pooper.

[BamBam]

Yep, that looks pretty close to me. I think I would prefer Wilson on the bench if Billy does play, just because that would require minimal disruption if he needs replacing, and I also think Wilson adds a bit more carrying power, with Mako being a risk then that might be an advantage.

I do think Eddie will go with Ludlam though

[Guest]

But no-one will be more missed than Fo...Follaw...Fo-laow? Fal-ow? Hmmmm...

[No 7&1/2]

Cant agreenwith that at all miaow. Vunipola is regularly one of the hardest workers with stats for tackles at the top end. Jones is using him as more of carrier purely as with underhill and curry hes now got speed and technique at the breakdown. All.about balance in the pack of course and those 3 could be very good for us. Pocock is always a worry but as others have said slightly below his peak (though I remember a stat in the rugby championship where his turnover stats are head and shoulders above anyone else). Hoper remains a good 7 but nothing more for me.

[Guest]

If there's any time to employ the two 10s at 10-12 I think this is the game, but any English fans think we could see Farrell back starting at 10 before the end of this tournament? Deliberately?

[Guest]

Cant agreenwith that at all miaow. Vunipola is regularly one of the hardest workers with stats for tackles at the top end. Jones is using him as more of carrier purely as with underhill and curry hes now got speed and technique at the breakdown. All.about balance in the pack of course and those 3 could be very good for us. Pocock is always a worry but as others have said slightly below his peak (though I remember a stat in the rugby championship where his turnover stats are head and shoulders above anyone else). Hoper remains a good 7 but nothing more for me.

Pocock's still more of a breakdown threat, but Hooper is a fantastic player. Australia's best at this tournament I'd say, pipping Koroibete. On Vunipola, despite past performances, he's still quite clearly the most exploitable player in that back row, and Wales effectively nullified him (and Jamie George, and several of the other big/powerful forwards) in the 6Ns through just keeping the ball in play. If Australia reach the tempo and minutes-in-play time they want//need, and don't have to suffer constant stoppages and TMO checks, BV will be blowing, and that makes him sloppy, and that can be the difference between getting there early enough to prevent Pooper latching on, or having enough energy to effectively roll them off the ball/out of the ruck or not. England's weak point is still a solid breakdown/poaching team, and when they've been beaten - even against the likes of Scotland - it's when their momentum has been stopped because they cannot control the play by keeping the ball and going set piece to set piece. There's seemingly mistakes/errors built in to the gameplan, but not where they're getting turned over 4-5+ times. If that happens, England are odds on to lose in my book.

Might not even happen, games seemingly rarely are as expected these days - all part of the coaching expertise and the focus on games within the game - but have to wait and see. In any case, I don't see losing a half fit Vunipola as an issue.

[No 7&1/2]

Well agree to disagree bar we do have good cover across the squad.

[Gooseberry]

But no-one will be more missed than Fo...Follaw...Fo-laow? Fal-ow? Hmmmm...

Hes not a jolly good fellow

[robbo277]

If there's any time to employ the two 10s at 10-12 I think this is the game, but any English fans think we could see Farrell back starting at 10 before the end of this tournament? Deliberately?

If Ford has a meltdown and England somehow come through anyway we could see a change. Short of that, I think Eddie will continue with this configuration for as long as we're in this tournament. Ford has been very good over the pool stages, and Farrell's kicking against Argentina was poor, so if you wanted a Tuilagi + Slade/Joseph combo in the midfield there is an argument for playing Ford at 10 (but that is probably even less likely).

[LondonTiger]

Australia head coach Michael Cheika has insisted his team will do very little analysis of quarter-final opponents England, preferring instead to zone in on themselves and their own expansive game plan.

As the Wallabies prepare for their most significant match in four years, player after player lined up to back Cheika's mantra that the identity of the opposition does not matter.

"Don’t really have one mate," Cheika replied when asked on Monday for his view on England's strengths and weaknesses.

"Lots of respect but I’m not a big analyser of the opposition. I’m always telling my coaches not to watch the opposition so much. They watch too much footage of the opposition.

"I’m interested in our blokes, our team and our analysis so that it can help us be better."

Australia have a poor recent record against England, having lost six in a row since RWC 2015 by an average margin of 15 points. But the coach will not be turning his gaze to the past in an attempt to improve the team's fortunes.

"I’m not trying to avoid it, but why go back and talk about all those games?" Cheika said. "I talked about those games in those press conferences after those games and then they’re done with and we’re on to the next thing.

"Looking backwards is only going to give you a sore neck."

Hooker Tolu Latu, who has started three out of the Wallabies' four RWC 2019 matches, including the defeat by Wales, was quick to back up his boss. The 26-year-old agreed that he and his team-mates are effectively "ignoring" England.

The message continued to flow from those in green and gold. The lineout, pictured, has been an area of strength for Australia throughout the tournament so far with the pack securing 94.7 per cent of their own ball against Georgia on Friday and managing four steals. But second-row Adam Coleman was adamant they are not planning to look for any advantage by studying England's efforts from the touchline.  

"We’ve done some review but mainly focused on us, on how we can get better," Coleman said. "Our lineout's operating pretty efficiently throughout the competition and we want to continue to do so on the weekend."

When pushed, Cheika did admit that his team have a set of tactics in mind specifically aimed at England but was swift to add that they are "nothing that’s crazy different to what we’ve done". The 52-year-old has often revelled in doing things differently during his five-year tenure as Australia's head honcho and sees no reason to stop now.

"I’m just a believer," he said. "Call me a sucker, I believe in my lads. I know there’s other people who won’t give us much of a chance but I believe that when you believe in yourself you are much closer to being able to create history."

This attitude of defiance is increasingly evident within a squad who last year lost nine out of 13 test matches. Flanker Lukhan Salakaia-Loto bristled when asked at Monday's press conference whether the Wallabies could realistically halt their losing run against England, before revealing his gratitude to Cheika for repeatedly defending the players against criticism from the outside.

"It takes it off us, he is putting himself out there to be shot," Salakaia-Loto said. "He's protecting us as every good coach would do. He's not going to let his players hang out to dry, we'd all do the same for each other."

[Guest]

Classic bluster. Probably a grain of truth, but Australia's win against the All Blacks was based on working out the opposition's defensive structures and taking them apart in transitions.

Again, some truth to it, but the mind games have begun.

[Guest]

Also, again, cannnot overstate how much the players like Cheika. Evident there again.

[Gooseberry]

Well I hope for their sake World Rugby reviews their decision not to award points for liking your coach. 

Jokes aside its also very much a thing for England, the players (who didnt get left out) love Jones. The backroom, less so.

[lostinwales]

Well I hope for their sake World Rugby reviews their decision not to award points for liking your coach. 

Jokes aside its also very much a thing for England, the players (who didnt get left out) love Jones. The backroom, less so.

Even the ones who did get left out tend to speak well of him - but there does seem to have been a fair amount of turnover in the backroom.

[Soul Requiem]

Robshaw and Haskell both wax lyrical about Jones, I can imagine it was made clear to the pair from the get go that they had no real chance of going to the world cup but were vital in helping the team progress.

[No 7&1/2]

He seems a guy who demands a helluva lot from people perhaps too much. Hard to tell given anyone moving on seems to have a NDA!

[majesticimperialman]

I read about Danny Care being at one of Eddie Jones training camp.

He said that EJ was so brutal in putting the players through their paces it was mainly a matter of survival. could you survive this camp to make it to the Next camp.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Genuine question for English posters: how do you feel about England's World Cup so far? Are you concerned that England might not be as up to speed as they'd like to be for the quarters, after the red card in the Argentina game and the cancellation of the France game?

Before the tournament began, Pool C was widely seen as the group of death, and on the face of it you would have expected the two sides to qualify from it to be the most battle-hardened heading into the quarters. Would you prefer to have had the tough group you were expected to have, or are you happy to have had a smoother progress?

[Guest]

Robshaw and Haskell both wax lyrical about Jones, I can imagine it was made clear to the pair from the get go that they had no real chance of going to the world cup but were vital in helping the team progress.

I highly doubt that tbh. That's not how you motivate people. I think their acceptance of being dropped and subsequent praise is more an appreciation for how EJ used them, and also gave them some good times after the debacle of 2015, than the fact they were only ever stop gaps. Both redeemed themselves, particularly Robshaw, albeit in a manner more befitting their skills than Lancaster thought they offered. You can't begrudge being retired by Underhill and Curry when you're the age and condition Haskell and Robshaw are in - perhaps some bitterness from Robshaw considering Ludlam's in there, but being fair, it's the right call. Same with Mike Brown. You don't pick former 'big' players as reserves - for off field and on field issues. Motivation, vitality etc.

Robshaw and Haskell did a job for EJ from the start, and in my opinion there was too much focus on winning and winning everything in the aftermath of the RWC when there should have been more emphasis on building towards it. EJ definitely got carried away and the hubris came out at times. I feel the losing streak was vindication of the fact he'd got it wrong, but he's clearly a highly adaptable and intelligent coach, and with a bit of fortune in uncovering Underhill and Curry, has found what could be the winning ticket to the final along with keeping Tuilagi fit.

We'll have to wait and see in the Australia game. First real test for both flankers and the England team in general. 'Real' test, in terms of WC credentials. Breakdown will be very interesting, and as refs are really letting the attacking team have a lot of leeway in retaining the ball, it should take an underperformance from England - and an immense effort from several Australians, not just Pooper - to turn that tide.

I think EJ's greatest strength is probably honesty and running a meritocracy, more than most coaches. No favourites by the looks of things. Live and die by the sword. He wants, he asks, and if gets, you're in, unless misfortune like injury (Slade, Joseph, now Tuilagi) allows the replacement to take the shirt.

[BamBam]

I'm slightly concerned about being undercooked to be honest. Mako / Wilson / Slade / Nowell would all likely be in our strongest 23, and have probably played around half a game each at max

Its good to have a clean bill of health outside of Billy's injury, but do think we've not really had much of a challenge due to the red card and cancellation. I think Eddie is more than capable of preparing the team, but I would not be surprised to see a slightly slow start in the first 20 mins against Oz

Still think we'll win, but there is cause for concern

[LondonTiger]

I'm slightly concerned about being undercooked to be honest. Mako / Wilson / Slade / Nowell would all likely be in our strongest 23, and have probably played around half a game each at max

Same, and I suspect Eddie may have liked the chance to give teh guys you name some actual gametime.

[Afro]

Same as Bam. I would have liked another tough game and think the France game being cancelled will really work against us.

I hope we will still have too much for Australia, and that they had their tougher games earlier might mean they have also have come off the boil a little.

[lostinwales]

I think that Eddie has had time to explore a few different options while keeping the monkey of a constant need to win off his back. Things he has tried have not worked out, so he's adapted. This RWC was always the long term aim.

The England squad just seem so settled and laid back at this stage. None of the tension that has surrounded them for the last few RWC's

[Exiledinborders]

I think EJ's greatest strength is probably honesty and running a meritocracy, more than most coaches. No favourites by the looks of things. Live and die by the sword. He wants, he asks, and if gets, you're in, unless misfortune like injury (Slade, Joseph, now Tuilagi) allows the replacement to take the shirt.

I am not sure about that. Ford failed in SA. Cipriani came in and did better and has never had a look in since.

[BamBam]

I'm slightly concerned about being undercooked to be honest. Mako / Wilson / Slade / Nowell would all likely be in our strongest 23, and have probably played around half a game each at max

Its good to have a clean bill of health outside of Billy's injury, but do think we've not really had much of a challenge due to the red card and cancellation. I think Eddie is more than capable of preparing the team, but I would not be surprised to see a slightly slow start in the first 20 mins against Oz

Still think we'll win, but there is cause for concern

Quoting myself here, but on the flip side, if we get through the Australia game I'll be hopeful / confident that we'd have the right balance of hard fought game time and a relatively fresh squad ahead of the semi finals.

[Rugby Fan]

Robshaw and Haskell both wax lyrical about Jones, I can imagine it was made clear to the pair from the get go that they had no real chance of going to the world cup but were vital in helping the team progress.

I highly doubt that tbh.

Agreed. Jones kept selecting them until he decided not to. There was no predetermined plan. Both got injured at unfortunate times. In Haskell's case, it effectively ended his Test career after the 2016 tour of Australia. Although he later went on the Lions tour, he was never the same player. If he had kept his 2016 form, I genuinely think Jones would have liked to have him around, not least because he had experience of playing in Japan. Probably would have been selected in the spot Mark Wilson is occupying. However, he was too broken, as Saints discovered.

Robshaw missed the 2018 Autumn internationals with a knee injury, and came back too slowly to be considered for the 2019 Six Nations. Jones might have selected others ahead of him, but his injury left a vacancy which Shields, Wilson, Curry and Underhill filled in the squad.

Brown and Care were dropped without being injured, so the same could have happened to Robshaw. I think Jones liked his industry, though, so he would at least have got another game if he'd been fit.

[lostinwales]

I think EJ's greatest strength is probably honesty and running a meritocracy, more than most coaches. No favourites by the looks of things. Live and die by the sword. He wants, he asks, and if gets, you're in, unless misfortune like injury (Slade, Joseph, now Tuilagi) allows the replacement to take the shirt.

I am not sure about that. Ford failed in SA. Cipriani came in and did better and has never had a look in since.

Agreed. 2 takes on this

1) Farrell seems very important to Eddie. Farrell works very well with Ford. Maybe not so much with Cipriani.
2) How well does Cipriani fit in the group as a whole? Eddie did put a lot of emphasis on picking spare players for the RWC who would help rather than hinder the team despite not playing. Maybe he felt that Cipriani would not do well as a bench bunny and potentially disrupt the team.

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