QF3 - Match Thread - Wales v France - 20/10/19 - K/O 8:15 BST

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd get these made nice and early for a few reasons - but one being that we're already now looking ahead to the QFs with several teams having finished their group stage, so it's all heating up for the proper knockout stuff...barring any more disruption.

Wales



Team:Liam Williams; George North, Jonathan Davies, Hadleigh Parkes, Josh Adams; Dan Biggar, Gareth Davies; Wyn Jones, Ken Owens, Tomas Francis; Jake Ball, Alun Wyn Jones; Aaron Wainwright, Justin Tipuric, Josh Navidi.


Reps: Elliot Dee, Rhys Carre, Dillon Lewis, Adam Beard, Ross Moriarty, Tomos Williams, Rhys Patchell, Owen Watkin


France



Team: Medard - Penaud, Vakatawa, Fickou, Huget - Ntamack, Du pont - Ollivon , Alldrit, Lauret -
Vaahamahina, Leroux - Slimani, Guirado (c), Poirot
Bench: Cat, Braille,Sentiano, Gabrillagues, Picamoles, Serin, Lopez, Rattez



Venue: Oita
Referee: Jaco Peyper
AR1: Nic Berry
AR2: Paul Williams
TMO: Marius Joncker

[Guest]

We haven't made the case for Dee over Elias because it hasn't needed to be made.

Dee wouldn't have played in 25 of Wales's last 26 Test matches if he wasn't seen quite clearly as better than Ryan Elias. I'll take Gatland's opinion of the two over yours, Miaow.

As I said, front row is having issues. Fair to discuss it. Elias is looking good, so clearly puts pressure on Dee.

This is why there are basically only Dragons fans left on this site btw. In case you hadn't noticed...

[RiscaGame]

Dee didn’t miss against Ireland in his start. Even out performed the legend that is Best. Elias missed 1 of 8 last week, so not bad.

He seemingly only made 1 tackle last week and conceded 2 penalties. So, not really close to replacing Dee. Whether he does or not in future is pretty moot. For now, it’s not a close call. That’s what people picked you up on.

[Guest]

Where is this personal attack that you talk of, Miaow??? Do you mean the comment from gowerpowershower? Pretty sure he’s an Ospreys fan.

That's the most obvious, yeah. Don't need that on the forum. The other is less an 'attack', more just lazy - calling bias before actually discussing the topic. Playing the man, not the ball, if you want. All on the same spectrum though.

Hmmm. Your wording sounded like you were accusing Dragons fans of personal attacks due to their Dragons bias. Just couldn’t see it in any of Risca or LP’s posts!

It’s all opinions of course. Always hard to compare one player to another unless they’re against each other or they’ve both had an extended run at this level. And also tough to compare players who rarely start an international match. They’re often coming on with other non-first teamers which can add a bit of bias to our judgements (e.g. being paired with two other sub-par front rowers when the coach rings the changes, and then being judged on scrummaging ability).

[RiscaGame]

This is why there are basically only Dragons fans left on this site btw. In case you hadn't noticed...

Not sure why it always comes to this, to be honest. Kind of reminds me of how another poster used to be, that he was the sole person holding an opinion, yet others who disagreed were the problem.

[Pie]

Oh ffs of all Nations lets leave these petty rivalries at home, we all hate the Blues lets support Wales lol

[RiscaGame]

[Guest]

This is why there are basically only Dragons fans left on this site btw. In case you hadn't noticed...

Not sure why it always comes to this, to be honest. Kind of reminds me of how another poster used to be, that he was the sole person holding an opinion, yet others who disagreed were the problem.

And yet it's the truth? There are only Dragons fans. It has more to do with the fact that some notorious posters are WUMs and easily WUMmed by others - not just Welsh posters - but look how a chance to get regional about Welsh selection brings posters out of the woodwork! Ganging up is literally why there are only one regions posters who regularly contribute.

[Guest]

For now, it’s not a close call. That’s what people picked you up on.

Of course it is. Don't be silly.

[Guest]

Hmmm. Your wording sounded like you were accusing Dragons fans of personal attacks due to their Dragons bias. Just couldn’t see it in any of Risca or LP’s posts!

It’s all opinions of course. Always hard to compare one player to another unless they’re against each other or they’ve both had an extended run at this level. And also tough to compare players who rarely start an international match. They’re often coming on with other non-first teamers which can add a bit of bias to our judgements (e.g. being paired with two other sub-par front rowers when the coach rings the changes, and then being judged on scrummaging ability).

Again, 'attack' is at the extreme end, but if the first port of call is 'YOUR JUST BIAS' then yeah, it's personal...obviously.

Have to think that Nicky Smith hasn't done too much wrong and has been cut, same with Shingler. Elias is pushing Dee already, but as you say, it's a hard call, and both are inexperienced. Either way, Wales need to sort the scrum out v France, and it's all rearranging the chairs to mitigate Dillon Lewis, who is the glaring weakness in the set piece unfortunately, but no-one can replace him it seems.

[Guest]

‘There are only Dragons fans’. How can you post something like that and expect to be taken seriously? There are more non-Dragons fans on this site than Dragons fans.

YOU made this ‘regional’. No one else commented on which clubs they play for. You accused posters of bias. You’ve now accused posters of ganging up. Which posters would that be???

[Gooseberry]

Is there such a thing as Dragons fans? Or just people who cant bring themselves to drive over the border to watch Bristol?

[Guest]

No, I wasn't the first. Quite clearly. Read the previous page. I mean 'only' in a Welsh context - the only regular posters bar maybe the odd exception are Dragons fans. Mikey was atrocious for trolling the Scarlets season thread for years, absolute bile every other week. You might see Scarlet Spiderman and the odd poster pop up, but by and large everyone's on Scarlet Fever. Same goes for the Blues and Ospreys - just a few stragglers left. It's just facts, all sorts of reasons why posters have left, but a few choice individuals - who happen to support the Dragons - WUMmed many posters off this site, that's not even up for debate.

However...

This is pointless.

Let's just focus on Wales.

[LondonTiger]

Jacques Brunel weighing in on Biggar's concussion issues by stating that in France he would have faced a mandatory 3 week break. This may have been a dig at Sam the Eagle following his suggestions that France do not take concussion seriously.

[Guest]

Probaby. Bit naive from Warburton. Didn't speak as a player and now goes and does something like that. Not the worst thing in the world, but not needed. Also you can guarantee France will target Biggar with a cheap shot or two.

I'd expect France to pull out all the stops here - good old dirty, rough em up stuff

[Guest]

Maybe, LT, but also perhaps Biggar was not concussed!

[majesticimperialman]

Regards Biggar,

Is he truly 100 percent "FIT" To play?

It seems a short time out with a HIAx2 to be brought back for this game.

[Guest]

Well Maj, the alternative to him being 100% is that the Welsh medical team are telling lies and he is not ready to come back and has failed the concussion protocols. Sincerely hope that’s not the case as it would be so dangerous to the player and also for the medics who would be struck off if it came to light! So I’m reasonably confident that he’s ok.

[Taylorman]

This French team is significantly better than the one in 2015, but not to the point where they look like they could run Wales ragged for 20-30 minutes. That would be the only way they could win and compensate for all their deficiencies. But when you look at the French team in 2015 - there are some absolute journeymen in that team. It's full of non-French average players. This side is at least a bit more French with a few Fijians thrown in.

France had won the 6Ns in 2010. The last time they won it. Not even close to comparing that French team to this one.

Since 2016 Wales have won 3, lost one:

France v Wales 10-19 W
France v Wales 20-18 F
France v Wales 13-14 W
France v Wales 19-24 W

Margins of 9, 5, 1 and -2, France scoring 6 tries to 5 across the four.

Can't see how this is that much of a mismatch to be honest, that doesnt assume dominance, thats two very close teams.
Certainly enough to not think all hope is lost for France.

I'll help you out, as it's easy to miss the context from an armchair in NZ.

The loss - the only loss since the 2011 RWC semi final - took 100 minutes to achieve. It also took a yellow card, about 50 scrums on the 5m line, Huget biting George North at the bottom of the ruck, some typical French TMO work, and then, eventually, they snuck a win with the last kick of the game.

The other games, though somewhat close on the scoreline, dont tell the comfort Wales have had against France in competitive terms.

It doesn't show you how Wales effectively dominate France by just sticking structure and picking them off every single time. It doesn't show you the scoreline control and dominance - or that, even when we didn't do that, as in 2019, we still pick them off and win with as relative comfort as you can from being 16-0 down at HT.

It doesn't show you that Wales have been able to turn up against France, not play particularly well - in fact, I'd say every game against the French has been a relative underperformance in the attacking/clinical stakes - and still not really look like losing. We didn't even look like losing the game we lost - it took a Warburton kick out on the full from 65m, whichis a freak incident in itself, and that scrum became a 5m scrum, and then it still took France 20 minutes to score a try.

But most of all, it doesn't show you that Wales can play France in between absolute mammoth games against England and Ireland, either be closely competitive or win those games, and then turn up and beat France without getting out of third gear the next week. The 6Ns is a tricky beast, and now, in an era where backing up seems next to impossible, Wales' dominance  France is pretty telling.

Results don't give you the full picture. Wales are 7 from 8 v France and beating them with relative ease each time - I thought you of all people who uses stats from 100 years ago would appreciate that there are many players will take that form and success in to this game. In a RWC, I'd expect and hope them to be more ruthless on the scoreboard and have a 3 score lead by 60 minutes, but we'll see how it goes. It's more likely to focus will still be on stopping France scoring - even in that 14-13 game it never felt like Wales would lose, and despite a 1 point lead, were in control. Same again, I'd imagine, for Gatland.

Replying to this from the NZ v Ireland game thread. Seems irrelevant to have this convo in there.

All I see is blah blah blah. Nothing there to suggest France are capable of winning. I have seen weaker French sides than that win quarter finals so you don’t need to pander to me what I know about upsets in this game.

‘Results don’t give you the full picture’.

Really? Try telling me that after this weekend. That one takes the cake. With your thinking Zim even more cobfident France can take Wales if you’re comments are reflective of the sides thinking.

And again, we were 7 from 7 with far, far larger score lines than Wales including a 61-10 win not three months earlier. And lost. Yet you use that as an argument Wales will win. 7 from 8 is not 7 from 7, especially when it’s 3 from 4, three of those very close.

[whocares]

Think there is a general confusion between a simple knock out and an actual concussion. Cheap dig from Brunel or just ignorance. In the end better move on.

[Guest]

Not every head knock is a concussion. Poor reporting from the journalists. No guarantee Biggar even lost consciousness either. A third head knock and a concussion one would probably rule him out for the rest of the tournament as the brain is then likely to be in a fragile, posssibly swollen state - exactly what leads to long term brain damage. But seems fine.

He's a tough cookie as well. A lot of this is luck and skull strength etc. You've seen Farrell smashed in the head/face twice. Every head knock is bad, but there are degrees to it.

[maestegmafia]

Well what a morning of rugby. England and New Zealand looked ferocious today.

Set my nerves jangling for tomorrow’s game. I hope we can do well

[No 7&1/2]

You're miles better than France. Get near parity with the scrum and you'll win comfortably.

[maestegmafia]

You're miles better than France. Get near parity with the scrum and you'll win comfortably.

Fact doesn’t always cure knock out rugby anxiety unfortunately mate..!

I know that even the most confident of my England and Kiwi mates were more than slightly nervous this morning..!

I’m sure it will be a fine game with a welsh win but you know how it is..

[No 7&1/2]

Ha yeah. I'd be more relaxed. They've shown little. Expect 5 to 10 mins of flurries but wales to dictate after 20 min you'll be relaxed.

[mikey_dragon]

If we intend to go the whole way then we have to beat France quite convincingly, similar to the way Eng and NZ dealt with their opponents today.

[maestegmafia]

Fingers crossed

[majesticimperialman]

My head say's Wales should win this at a canter.

But this is knock out rugby, I will not write France off too easy. They ( France ) do have this nagging game plan that you are/might not be expecting, then you could be chasing the game.

I am expecting a close game. But hope fully with the same tempo as we have seen in today's game.

[mikey_dragon]

Could well be a NZ vs SA final, but an England vs Wales one would be a lot better!

[maestegmafia]

My head say's Wales should win this at a canter.

But this is knock out rugby, I will not write France off too easy. They ( France ) do have this nagging game plan that you are/might not be expecting, then you could be chasing the game.

I am expecting a close game. But hope fully with the same tempo as we have seen in today's game.

You seemed to think it will be a big loss when you wrote this...?

England 35-Australia 18

New Zealand 28-Ireland 31

Wales 18-France 30

Japan 35 SA 25

[Heaf]

Could well be a NZ vs SA final, but an England vs Wales one would be a lot better!

I'd be happy with that

[majesticimperialman]

My head say's Wales should win this at a canter.

But this is knock out rugby, I will not write France off too easy. They ( France ) do have this nagging game plan that you are/might not be expecting, then you could be chasing the game.

I am expecting a close game. But hope fully with the same tempo as we have seen in today's game.

You seemed to think it will be a big loss when you wrote this...?

England 35-Australia 18

New Zealand 28-Ireland 31

Wales 18-France 30

Japan 35 SA 25

maes.

I had been drinking when i put that prediction up.....Have had time to really think about the game, and now not so sure.

[LondonTiger]

Those predictions need more than being drunk to explain them

[Guest]

Based on the attacking stuff and ruthless power we've seen from both SFist, and what SA will bring as well, have, have, have to hope Wales don't just limp over the line here, and actually go and play a bit.

I think we will, but there literally has to be 20-30 minutes of good, attacking, pace-based rugby from Wales. Just as a point of necessity. Uruguay game showed the bad side of wanting to play it 'wide' - too lateral, too floaty, too rushed.

Think this is why I want to see what Watkin offers. It's entirely plausible that Parkes only has 50 minutes in him v the best teams, and Watkin can play it a bit more heads up and intelligently.

[RiscaGame]

It has been a long week waiting for this game. I actually thought Wales would win by something like 8, but now I’m not sure I could call a winner and I don’t think it will be more than 2-4 points whoever wins. Think I’d like to see Biggar knock over a few DGs to settle us. France have apparently said we play boring rugby, so let’s not disappoint them.

[Guest]

Think the French will be up for this. Some mind games in the week. A delay in preparing for us. Definite potential for us to lose this unfortunately. Might just catch the French on their good day.

[Guest]

I’m bricking this! The French being the French, and all that.

[maestegmafia]

Those predictions need more than being drunk to explain them

To be fair he was pretty close on the England Vs Australia one

[maestegmafia]

I’m bricking this! The French being the French, and all that.

I know me too

[Taylorman]

Could well be a NZ vs SA final, but an England vs Wales one would be a lot better!

I'd be happy with that

Rules don’t allow no SH side in the final...

What?

sorry? ....oh...it’s been coincidental?

Oh, sorry.

[majesticimperialman]

Relax Tman.

France will put Wales out of their misery, and Wales will be going home on Monday.

And if that comes about Gatland will not be in line for the All Blacks coaching job.

[TightHEAD]

Croissants all ready for breakfast tomorrow morning

[Guest]

It's doubtful we'll see the same standards of play in this game as we've seen today. But hopefully that shouldn't matter too much with the result.

If France turn up it will be interesting - even if they do move it, I feel this is an opponent Wales are comfortable and confident responding in kind, and with the quality of footballers they have in Ken, AWJ, Tipuric/the back row, Liam Williams, and increasingly Adams - as well as the running ability of JD2 and North - there's so much creative attacking talent waiting to be put to good use, it might even help to have a game that avoids the old stodge fest, and forces Wales to play a bit to score their points.

We saw Wales play some good stuff in the first warm up game in Twickenham, with mixed results - lots of good moves, most not finished off. I'd expect the same - the key attacking set up seems to be the one between the 10m lines, on the right hand touchline. Basically the try they scored against England 4 years ago, where it goes right in to the second and third lines of attack after multiple phases and their defence is ragged, and usually gets to a 2 on 1 or 3 on 2 situation, where hands look to release the winger down the line. I expect to see France's indiscipline punished in such a move, and, hopefully, North gets on the ball in these situations and can cut some angles at pace.

Just generally, need move of North on the ball, need more attacking intent. The second half against Uruguay was an admission that we know what to do to unlock defences, just...lack of preparation, lack of practice. Not sure. Parkes, Wainwright, Navidi etc. all look key men for running those hard, straight lines and possibly off loading or setting it up for the next phase. But it would be good for that to be the mindset of 2/3rds of the team. Sadly it's not.

Anyway, France will likely look to frustrate and 'match' us - expect them to imitate us by holding on to the ball in the forwards, grinding it up, keeping it in play. NZ did it to Ireland today. It's a strange trend in rugby, of teams saying 'we know what you're going to do' and reacting. But either way, I think France must know the set piece and their forward pack's size is the only way they're getting the platform to allow Raka et al. to weave their magic out side. If they play off the back foot, Wales will just kick the goals all day long as they run themselves in to pressure.

It's hard to see France winning based on past performances, but the extra break, a RWC mutiny, the talent in their side...it's not out of the question. And with the other 2 QFs going to plan, and SA looking surely set to beat Japan, could this be the upset? Who knows. Let's hope not, but you don't get through because you deserve it.

Want to see Wales really take the scoreboard away from a team - like England did, just never allow Australia any time when they were 'in' the game mentally due to the scoreline. Think that's probably asking too much from a Gatland side, sadly, but you can always hope. Just a win would do.

[Pie]

Relax Tman.

France will put Wales out of their misery, and Wales will be going home on Monday.

And if that comes about Gatland will not be in line for the All Blacks coaching job.

Don’t make me remove your posting from this forum, Pie

[Pie]

Croissants all ready for breakfast tomorrow morning

Enjoy them, you're going to spend another week in Japan before being hammered into oblivion by NZ who will then lose in the Final.

[Taylorman]

Relax Tman.

France will put Wales out of their misery, and Wales will be going home on Monday.

And if that comes about Gatland will not be in line for the All Blacks coaching job.

They could, though I wouldn’t wish another upset on anyone. Wales deserve to be in the semi. They’re a good side, great to watch, and have a great record. They also lucked out with warbs red in 2011 so are owed one.

Can see one of Eng/ Nz playing them final easily.

[maestegmafia]

They could, though I wouldn’t wish another upset on anyone. Wales deserve to be in the semi. They’re a good side, great to watch, and have a great record. They also lucked out with warbs red in 2011 so are owed one.
Can see one of Eng/ Nz playing them final easily.

Cheers Taylorman

Not long to go now....!

Two more fantastic games today.

[majesticimperialman]

It is La Crunch time.

I was a bag of nerves yesterday before the England v Australia game.

I am just as nervous now.

Come boys both teams give us a good/great game.

[RiscaGame]

So no Davies then. Big test for Watkin.

[whocares]

Am relaxed. Not much to hope for so just looking for a decent game
for me

[Old Man]

Good luck to the Welsh fans, if anything your consistency over the recent times deserves a victory today.

I hope the French at least make an effort to be competitive, but not too much.

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