SF1 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v NEW ZEALAND - 26/10/19 - K/O 09:00 BST

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Again, making these early for the sake of ease and consistency.

ENGLAND

Team:Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Wilson, Heinz, Slade, Joseph.

NEW ZEALAND

Team: Beauden Barrett; Sevu Reece, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, George Bridge; Richie Mo'unga, Aaron Smith; Joe Moody, Codie Taylor, Nepo Laulala, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, Kieran Read (capt).

Replacements: Dane Coles, Ofa Tuungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Sam Cane, TJ Perenara, Sonny Bill Williams, Jordie Barrett.



Venue: Yokohama
Referee: Nigel Owens
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Pascal Gauzere
TMO: Marius Joncker

[Taylorman]

Pourfour I get your point but I still don’t see how England are going to score points off...1 Farrell only as playmaker (For me Ford must come in), and 2, if NZ don’t offer the multitude of chances Oz did. England just sat back and pounced on mistakes, two being intercepts through shoddy passing and handling.

They managed to get May away as well but I don’t see the ABs giving those same chances up.

Farrell will be targeted, another reason for bringing Ford in, to mix things up, keep them guessing. Otherwise Youngs is going to offload the pressure onto him.

If Farrells the lone playmaker, easy AB win for me.

[Scottrf]

Wales bearing NZ during this tournament is absolute dreamland though.

[Old Man]

I agree, from a welsh perspective too it’s great to have made the quarterfinals and semis, whatever happens from here win or lose it is still great to have got this far. I think a year or eighteen months ago we would have been happy to have made it this far and I think England and South African fans would say the same.

Yes, getting to the semi final is huge for SA, considering what we went through since Allister Coetzee was appointed, the mere fact that Erasmus managed to bring us back in only 18 months in itself is a minor miracle.

[Guest]

Eddie Jones and his dementia-inspired press conference rant hasn’t really amounted to much. Bit of a fizzer.

[Scottrf]

They managed to get May away as well but I don’t see the ABs giving those same chances up.

Why? New Zealand hardly have an amazing defence.

[Guest]

Tbf LT, Wales beat Argentina black and blue just over 12 months ago in their own patch. All things considered, the win v France was a sterner test in the end.

[Guest]

Pourfour I get your point but I still don’t see how England are going to score points off...1 Farrell only as playmaker (For me Ford must come in), and 2, if NZ don’t offer the multitude of chances Oz did. England just sat back and pounced on mistakes, two being intercepts through shoddy passing and handling.

They managed to get May away as well but I don’t see the ABs giving those same chances up.

Farrell will be targeted, another reason for bringing Ford in, to mix things up, keep them guessing. Otherwise Youngs is going to offload the pressure onto him.

If Farrells the lone playmaker, easy AB win for me.

He's clearly not. Daly and Slade are as well.

[Poorfour]

Pourfour I get your point but I still don’t see how England are going to score points off...1 Farrell only as playmaker (For me Ford must come in), and 2, if NZ don’t offer the multitude of chances Oz did. England just sat back and pounced on mistakes, two being intercepts through shoddy passing and handling.

They managed to get May away as well but I don’t see the ABs giving those same chances up.

Farrell will be targeted, another reason for bringing Ford in, to mix things up, keep them guessing. Otherwise Youngs is going to offload the pressure onto him.

If Farrells the lone playmaker, easy AB win for me.

He's clearly not. Daly and Slade are as well.

And Mako, and Sinckler - we have seen Eddie use them - sparingly - as first receiver on a few occasions but it's a tactic that's been kept under wraps. But when you have two of the best handling props in the game, it would be a shame not to unleash them for a game like this.

[Poorfour]

Though now we are here the dream does exist that maybe england or wales could possibly win a rugby World Cup and have beaten all the Southern Hemisphere teams to get there. That would be some unanswerable win if it happens no matter what the odds say.

Hope you are not offended, but thi sis why if England were to win I want to face SA in the final. Should we lose I will want Wales to be meeting NZ.

Winning the World Cup having beaten the 3 SANZAR nations would be an amazing thing. It is a shame in a way that Argentina did not make the 1/4 finals v Wales - then there would have been the chance for Wales to beat all the other 6Ns and RC teams in the same year in competitive rugby matches.

Well, we did beat Argentina in the pool stages...

[Old Man]

Though now we are here the dream does exist that maybe england or wales could possibly win a rugby World Cup and have beaten all the Southern Hemisphere teams to get there. That would be some unanswerable win if it happens no matter what the odds say.

Hope you are not offended, but thi sis why if England were to win I want to face SA in the final. Should we lose I will want Wales to be meeting NZ.

Winning the World Cup having beaten the 3 SANZAR nations would be an amazing thing. It is a shame in a way that Argentina did not make the 1/4 finals v Wales - then there would have been the chance for Wales to beat all the other 6Ns and RC teams in the same year in competitive rugby matches.

Well, we did beat Argentina in the pool stages...

Currently everyone and his dog is beating Argentina though.

[Guest]

Pourfour I get your point but I still don’t see how England are going to score points off...1 Farrell only as playmaker (For me Ford must come in), and 2, if NZ don’t offer the multitude of chances Oz did. England just sat back and pounced on mistakes, two being intercepts through shoddy passing and handling.

They managed to get May away as well but I don’t see the ABs giving those same chances up.

Farrell will be targeted, another reason for bringing Ford in, to mix things up, keep them guessing. Otherwise Youngs is going to offload the pressure onto him.

If Farrells the lone playmaker, easy AB win for me.

He's clearly not. Daly and Slade are as well.

And Mako, and Sinckler - we have seen Eddie use them - sparingly - as first receiver on a few occasions but it's a tactic that's been kept under wraps. But when you have two of the best handling props in the game, it would be a shame not to unleash them for a game like this.

I know what you're saying, but not entirely sure that's the same thing. Being first receiver isn't the same as being a playmaker. You don't need to receive the ball first up out of the ruck to be a playmaker.

[Guest]

Though now we are here the dream does exist that maybe england or wales could possibly win a rugby World Cup and have beaten all the Southern Hemisphere teams to get there. That would be some unanswerable win if it happens no matter what the odds say.

Hope you are not offended, but thi sis why if England were to win I want to face SA in the final. Should we lose I will want Wales to be meeting NZ.

Winning the World Cup having beaten the 3 SANZAR nations would be an amazing thing. It is a shame in a way that Argentina did not make the 1/4 finals v Wales - then there would have been the chance for Wales to beat all the other 6Ns and RC teams in the same year in competitive rugby matches.

Well, we did beat Argentina in the pool stages...

Currently everyone and his dog is beating Argentina though.

Not sure these dogs would.

[SecretFly]

I know what you're saying, but not entirely sure that's the same thing. Being first receiver isn't the same as being a playmaker. You don't need to receive the ball first up out of the ruck to be a playmaker.

So true. This 'playmaker' has become a real buzz term. But surely any player with the skill to find space, pace to get most advantage from it, and vision not to be greedy if a slick pass gets a try...is a playmaker?

[Guest]

While these:



And these:



Even these boys:



And probably these, eventhough they've lost their owner:



Would all be pretty confident.

Not so sure about these:



And this is one weird looking dog...

[Guest]

I know what you're saying, but not entirely sure that's the same thing. Being first receiver isn't the same as being a playmaker. You don't need to receive the ball first up out of the ruck to be a playmaker.

So true.  This 'playmaker' has become a real buzz term.  But surely any player with the skill to find space, pace to get most advantage from it, and vision not to be greedy if a slick pass gets a try...is a playmaker?

Yeah. It's definitely overused. A dog whistle for anti-prop media talking heads and pundits, you could say - all bark and no bite. End of the day, the players are there following orders, playing to the whistle, and looking forward to the post-match treats that victory brings. If that now means that Marler and Mako step up, sit, roll over, and end up being first receivers, who can really tell what is it and what isn't a playmaker any more?

[Old Man]

Though now we are here the dream does exist that maybe england or wales could possibly win a rugby World Cup and have beaten all the Southern Hemisphere teams to get there. That would be some unanswerable win if it happens no matter what the odds say.

Hope you are not offended, but thi sis why if England were to win I want to face SA in the final. Should we lose I will want Wales to be meeting NZ.

Winning the World Cup having beaten the 3 SANZAR nations would be an amazing thing. It is a shame in a way that Argentina did not make the 1/4 finals v Wales - then there would have been the chance for Wales to beat all the other 6Ns and RC teams in the same year in competitive rugby matches.

Well, we did beat Argentina in the pool stages...

Currently everyone and his dog is beating Argentina though.

Not sure these dogs would.

I bet they have a good step and some pace.

[Guest]

I bet they don't...

[SecretFly]

Stop goading Toner!

[Guest]

So Eddie Jones calls his pimple riddled flankers the ‘Kamikaze kids’. Is that a little bit inappropriate? It’s cultural appropriation at the very least. Next thing he’ll be up on his soap box calling Mako the ‘Hiroshima boofhead’.

[Guest]

Not sure about this follow up to Hansen's breakthrough single. ebop? Should have just stuck with mmmbop...

[SecretFly]

So Eddie Jones calls his pimple riddled flankers the ‘Kamikaze kids’.  Is that a little bit inappropriate? It’s cultural appropriation at the very least. Next thing he’ll be up on his soap box calling Mako the ‘Hiroshima slug’.

Well...he is part Japanese, ain't he? He gets to do that. Just as he probably gets allowances for any cultural insults he might throw at the Aussies.
But overall, Eddie knows his place. Like he'd know for example never to refer publically to the Irish as scummy or anything like that.

[Guest]

That’s right, Eddie Jones called the Irish scummy, what a farkin coont

[LondonTiger]

Re dogs (and birds)

I can spot:

The Irish Wolfhound
Welsh Corgi
English Bulldog
French Poodle
Scottish Terrier
& Kiwi

I assume the one with the ball in its mouth is Australian, but it looks like a border collie.

[SecretFly]

That’s right, Eddie Jones called the Irish scummy, what a farkin coont

I enjoyed it. I get Eddie. The Irish guy laughed. Eddie is an Aussie mucker....raw round the bleedin' edges, mate. But there is no real harm in him.

[Guest]

Re dogs (and birds)

I can spot:

The Irish Wolfhound
Welsh Corgi
English Bulldog
French Poodle
Scottish Terrier
& Kiwi

I assume the one with the ball in its mouth is Australian, but it looks like a border collie.

Right on the bark. I mean mark. I mean...spot on...

[Poorfour]

I know what you're saying, but not entirely sure that's the same thing. Being first receiver isn't the same as being a playmaker. You don't need to receive the ball first up out of the ruck to be a playmaker.

So true.  This 'playmaker' has become a real buzz term.  But surely any player with the skill to find space, pace to get most advantage from it, and vision not to be greedy if a slick pass gets a try...is a playmaker?

Maybe I used the wrong term. But England have two props who are capable of running lines and distributing like 20 stone flyhalves, which gives them additional options in attack.

[Guest]

That’s right, Eddie Jones called the Irish scummy, what a farkin coont

I enjoyed it.  I get Eddie.  The Irish guy laughed.  Eddie is an Aussie mucker....raw round the bleedin' edges, mate.  But there is no real harm in him.

Nah no harm, just a good old Aussie rooster messing about and calling the Irish scummy. At least he didn’t call them ‘baldy f****** c***‘. Have to say he’s looking a bit frail lately so the England job has taken it out of him. He’s hanging in there and putting on a brave face.

[SecretFly]

If he loses at the weekend, he'll go.
If he wins the WC, I still think he'll steal away.

Australia need him anyway and the climate is nicer!

[Guest]

Nice climate, too many Australians, but he’ll probably fit in alright. Might be able to actually help the country where he is from? Wouldn’t that be a novelty.

[SecretFly]

Nice climate, too many Australians, but he’ll probably fit in alright. Might be able to actually help the country where he is from? Wouldn’t that be a novelty.

He'd need padlocked doors and 24 hour security though.  I hear Michael Cheika also lives in that country.  And that lad's got anger issues!

[Rugby Fan]

...he’s looking a bit frail lately so the England job has taken it out of him...

Jones had a stroke while he was coaching Japan, While he still puts everything into the job, that appeared to give him a different perspective on life. He and Cheika were both noticeably affected by the death of Jeff Sayle earlier this month.

[Guest]

...he’s looking a bit frail lately so the England job has taken it out of him...

Jones had a stroke while he was coaching Japan, While he still puts everything into the job, that appeared to give him a different perspective on life. He and Cheika were both noticeably affected by the death of Jeff Sayle earlier this month.

I know Eddie has had a stroke. Just saying, he’s looking a bit beat up in the presser. He said some pretty ‘outlandish’ stuff and it might be a sign he’s unraveling under the pressure.

[Guest]

Is it a nice climate in Australia? Seems horrific tbh, particularly if you're white. Think I'd rather live in Galway.

[Guest]

Too hot for me miaow, dry, stinking heat. The flies over there are so desperate for moisture they try and fly up your nose and into your ears.

[lostinwales]

People are talking about eddie rather individual players. Job done.

Yes that was Cheika’s usual plan leading into AB tests as well. Backfired most of the time cos he was usually carrying on afterwards as well for different reasons. Eddie does seem to be particularly Cheshire Cat like at the moment.

Eddie does it for all tests not just NZ.  Win or lose I don't think it backfires as that is not the objective.  If it is still keeping the media focused on the coach and not the players then it is working - certainly when it comes to the British media who love to build up and burn down.  I'm sure I posted on another thread that I'm quite certain players will have been for drinks or done something else 'shocking' that journalists would have blown out of all proportion had Eddie not reliably fed the papers stuff to write about.  You have to remember that our press take more joy tearing apart our own team than yours do.

As it is it's sort of job done for Eddie in terms of keeping the press happy in the longer term.  If England lose the semi no one is surprised here and the tournament is viewed as a step in the right direction after the last two.  Even if they lose badly (which I think is unlikely in the absence of an early red card or something like that) I think they'll benefit from Ireland having lost badly first and it will be viewed through the lens of "NZ are obviously on fire at the moment", rather than through the lens of "Eng should have put up more of a fight".  On the flip side, if they pull off the win he's a hero for getting a world cup win against NZ whatever happens in the final.

Yes I got some notifications from the s*n about how Tuilagi was an illegal immigrant and how he supports his cross dressing brother. Bizarre timing and all very old news.

[Rinsure]

Based on recent experience is it fair to assume we'll be waking up (here in the UK) to a team announcement tomorrow?

[king_carlos]

If Beauden and Daly are the respective fullbacks then both will be targeted by the opposition leading to plenty of loose ball. New Zealand are the masters in broken play and England have scored masses of tries under Jones through kicking and pressure. A very interesting area in this match-up.

I have New Zealand as favourites but if I was a Kiwi fan I'd definitely be wanting Ben Smith at fullback for this one. As an England fan Smith vs Daly under the highball gives me cold sweats.

There are fascinating match-ups all over the park though.

The second row battle will be huge as will Curry and Underhill vs Savea and Cane. In Taylor, Retallick, Savea and Read the ABs have back rowers who are more dangerous out wide than their counterparts. The England pack work very well as a unit attacking off 9 though.

Hooker is a great battle given that George is such a different player to Taylor and Coles but all three are outstanding. NZ definitely have the better depth at hooker for impact from the bench.

I hope England go Ford-Farrell-Tuilagi for the game control Ford and Farrell offer together. England will have to kick a lot of ball to the NZ back three. How NZ can use that ball to counter attack and pressure Daly will be critical. England need to find grass more often than not when kicking for territory and Ford has been excellent at that during this RWC.

[LondonTiger]

Based on recent experience is it fair to assume we'll be waking up (here in the UK) to a team announcement tomorrow?

Yup. England to announce team late afternoon in Japan

[maestegmafia]

Based on recent experience is it fair to assume we'll be waking up (here in the UK) to a team announcement tomorrow?

Yup. England to announce team late afternoon in Japan

Exciting times.

I think the guys saying ford, Farrell and Tuilagi as a midfield are right. If Nowell is fit he would be a great guy to have. I guess that they will persist with Daly at 15 but I think like many I would be inclined to put Watson there. And get no well on the wing...

I guess Daly’s long range kicks are useful though and he is very fast.

[Scottrf]

Based on recent experience is it fair to assume we'll be waking up (here in the UK) to a team announcement tomorrow?

Yup. England to announce team late afternoon in Japan

Exciting times.

I think the guys saying ford, Farrell and Tuilagi as a midfield are right. If Howell is fit he would be a great guy to have. I guess that they will persist with Daly at 15 but I think like many I would be inclined to put Watson there. And get no well on the wing...

I guess Daly’s long range kicks are useful though and he is very fast.

It's possible, but I wouldn't be so sure. He played Farrell Teo Slade last time vs NZ.

[Gooseberry]

Based on recent experience is it fair to assume we'll be waking up (here in the UK) to a team announcement tomorrow?

Yup. England to announce team late afternoon in Japan

Exciting times.

I think the guys saying ford, Farrell and Tuilagi as a midfield are right. If Howell is fit he would be a great guy to have. I guess that they will persist with Daly at 15 but I think like many I would be inclined to put Watson there. And get no well on the wing...

I guess Daly’s long range kicks are useful though and he is very fast.

It's possible, but I wouldn't be so sure. He played Farrell Teo Slade last time vs NZ.

Is it national spell Noels name incorrectly day? 

Given it worked in the last game I dont expect a change from the Farrel, Tuilagi, Slade combination. They will still have an eye on the tackling stats, NZ will likely kick more ball back than Aus did but still England will ship a lot of possession and need to nullify the NZ attack somehow. As Scott notes it closely matched what they did last time with Te'o. 

With the wide players again I dont see any change coming. Daly is the only one whos been playing fullback, for all the criticism of him the idea that Watson or Nowell could just slip in there and have the natural positioning and security under the high ball of Brown at his peak is silly, Nowell was pretty well known for some high ball howlers in his early days with England. Some of the criticism of Daly is getting OTT, there was someone saying he wasnt any good in attack which is plain daft. Ultimately his kicking for territory is a key part of how England are playing. 

If theres changes it might be in the starting forwards with Mako having looked pretty beat up after his epic shift in the last game. And then the utility back bench spot could go to Nowell over JJ. 

Honestly I cant see England making a radical change to a side that just beat Aus comfortably. NZ will likely be a sterner test and they need some better execution, but thats not going to come from changing up the entire backs division.

[Big]

Yes it is, you can spell Knowul however you like today as long as it's phonetically plausible.

I think you are probably right on Farrell, Tuilagi, Slade - with the same switch of Slade for Ford for the last 20-30 minutes depending on how the match is going. There is some sense in cranking up the attack later on, when at least in theory there might be more chance of gaps opening up. The main reason I'd think about Ford starting (if the change were made) is that he seems to be better at those really long high kicks that the can put the opposition deep in their own half under immediate pressure. Might be useful on Saturday morning.

[Geordie]

Slade is susceptible to mistakes though which will be costly against the ABs.

[lostinwales]

Slade is susceptible to mistakes though which will be costly against the ABs.

Who isn't?

[LondonTiger]

The only changes I expect are Kruis and Lawes swapping, and May perhaps missing out due to his tight hamstring.

[robbo277]

Strong stats from the Telegraph.

In the 2019 Six Nations, Curry gave away 8 penalties. This tournament he has given away 0.

In the 2019 Six Nations, in 64 defensive breakdown arrivals, Curry was effective in 18 and ineffective in 46 (28% effective rate).
In the 2019 World Cup, in 23 defensive breakdown arrivals, Curry has been effective in 12 and ineffective in 11 (52% effective rate).

Curry's becoming a lot more selective in which breakdowns he hits, really driving up that effectiveness rate and driving down his penalty count. With the tackles he's also making and the extra dimension he's adding to his game with the lineout jumping he's really turning into a top all round 6.

NB: if anyone has a subscription here is the link. I don't and just took the above from the tweet and the preview.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-world-cup/2019/10/23/have-england-changed-game-order-team-tom-curry-sam-underhill/

[Rugby Fan]

Strong stats from the Telegraph.

The article suggests England switched Curry to six to curb his over-enthusiasm at the breakdown, which was a factor behind his high 6 Nations penalty count. Also mentions the work he has done on his lineout, where Underhill/Curry as a combination might be vulnerable against the All Blacks.

[Soul Requiem]

I think that Underhill has to take a lot of credit for that, during the six nations it seemed that Curry was used more as an enforcer and whilst he did that admirably he wasn't as effective at the breakdown which the stats back up. Underhill has such an innate ability to knock players back in the tackle that it makes so much easier to then get over the ball.

[Taylorman]

They managed to get May away as well but I don’t see the ABs giving those same chances up.

Why? New Zealand hardly have an amazing defence.

Don’t they?
Ok, This World Cup they’re the only ones to play one of the top five ( ire, Wales, Oz, SA, NZ) pre tournament faves, beating both SA and Ireland, scoring 9 tries to 3, the two Irish tries coming when the match had been decided much earlier.

So one try from two of those considered possible winners. They also scored 29 tries to 3 so far.

Who has done better than that so far?

England...vs faves, no matches. Vs tier one, two matches, 10 tries to 1. neither considered a likely winner. 21 tries to 3 so far all up. Impressive but yet to be tested vs a top five side.

SA: played NZ, lost scored 1:2 against, 30 tries to 3 all up.next best but at least they’ve been tested by a top five.

Wales. Vs no faves, two tier ones, scored 5:5 vs them and 19-12 all up. Easily the worst of the semi finalists. Are struggling without even being tested vs top five.

Only NZ has beaten one of the top five so far, twice, and have leaked one try when the result was still up for grabs.

No one has claims for a better defence this tournament because none has beaten a potential winner.

[Soul Requiem]

If you're including Ireland in the favourites you have to include Australia.

[Sponsored content]