SF1 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v NEW ZEALAND - 26/10/19 - K/O 09:00 BST

by Guest Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:55 pm

First topic message reminder :

Again, making these early for the sake of ease and consistency.

ENGLAND

Team:Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Marler, Cole, Kruis, Wilson, Heinz, Slade, Joseph.

NEW ZEALAND

Team: Beauden Barrett; Sevu Reece, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, George Bridge; Richie Mo'unga, Aaron Smith; Joe Moody, Codie Taylor, Nepo Laulala, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Ardie Savea, Kieran Read (capt).

Replacements: Dane Coles, Ofa Tuungafasi, Angus Ta'avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Sam Cane, TJ Perenara, Sonny Bill Williams, Jordie Barrett.

Venue: Yokohama
Referee: Nigel Owens
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Pascal Gauzere
TMO: Marius Joncker

by Taylorman Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:47 pm

No we don’t. Ireland came into this tournament as world number one and genuine hopes of winning. Oz have done nothing before, during and were never considered on these boards as a potential winner. And played like it.

by Soul Requiem Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:48 pm

Ireland had no genuine hopes of winning at all, you're only including them because they played New Zealand.

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:51 pm

It's also ridiculous to compare Fiji as the 4th seed in their group v, what, Canada in NZ's? Fiji would thump Canada...again!

You can prove anything with stats.

What's the actual argument here? That NZ have poor defence. I don't see that. But they won't have faced an attack quite like England's. With it no being torrential weather - purportedly - I'd expect England to play a bit more rugby than they did last year, and expect NZ to struggle with the high tempo game at times. It's all about converting pressure in to points - hardly rocket science. If the kicking or flat running game doesn't work, they still have the lineout drive.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:54 pm

Taylorman wrote:England...vs faves, no matches

You say Australia was a favourite, and we just played them. Wales met them in the pool.

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:57 pm

Honestly, the man just makes things up as he goes along. He'll contradict himself within the same comment if you give him the chance. It's all to try and get one over the Poms on this messageboard...

England are quite clearly a high scoring team. As are NZ. Trying to split hairs about trivial points before the game is pointless. England will want a stop start, high tempo/static game, where NZ will want it a bit swifter, fewer stoppages in between the 10m lines, and generally look to tire England out and back their skills under fatigue.

That's the key area of 'control'. If either side gets an edge at the set piece - particularly England - it gives them the platform to achieve that.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:58 pm

miaow wrote:...With it no being torrential weather - purportedly -...

Not torrential rain - that's expected on Friday - but we could see showers.

by Taylorman Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:58 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Ireland had no genuine hopes of winning at all, you're only including them because they played New Zealand.

Really? My how things have changed. Plenty of Irishmen here thought they did, plus, regardless, Ireland were top five in the power rankings. So that takes all the bull out of the equation. Ireland were top five before the tourney started and were fifth at the end of it, still ahead of the Boks. Oz were a distance sixth, right through, so always out of it.

by Soul Requiem Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:59 pm

The Irish thought the Irish might win? That's a glowing endorsement.

by Taylorman Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:02 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:England...vs faves, no matches
You say Australia was a favourite, and we just played them. Wales met them in the pool.

An obvious mistake. Eng, NZ, SA, Wales, SA.

Pretty obvious England should be there instead of Oz.

by Collapse2005 Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:05 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Ireland had no genuine hopes of winning at all, you're only including them because they played New Zealand.

Very easy to make such claims after the fact.

by Taylorman Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:05 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:The Irish thought the Irish might win? That's a glowing endorsement.

You don’t think Ireland were rated one of the top five going into this tournament?

Ie, they were ahead of Oz? Despite being ranked number one.

by Duty281 Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:06 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Ireland had no genuine hopes of winning at all, you're only including them because they played New Zealand.

Agreed. The only three that had, and have, a realistic chance of winning the tournament are New Zealand, England and South Africa.

by Taylorman Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:08 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Ireland had no genuine hopes of winning at all, you're only including them because they played New Zealand.

Very easy to make such claims after the fact.

Aha, going into this you thought Oz were ahead of Ireland did you guns? Amazing how your story changes now isn’t it. Ireland were not top five going in?

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:08 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
miaow wrote:...With it no being torrential weather - purportedly -...
Not torrential rain - that's expected on Friday - but we could see showers.

That's probably ideal for England. Slick to make the ball run, but not a downpour to make handling a nightmare.

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:09 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:England...vs faves, no matches
You say Australia was a favourite, and we just played them. Wales met them in the pool.

An obvious mistake. Eng, NZ, SA, Wales, SA.

SA so good they're in there twice...

by Taylorman Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:11 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Ireland had no genuine hopes of winning at all, you're only including them because they played New Zealand.

Agreed. The only three that had, and have, a realistic chance of winning the tournament are New Zealand, England and South Africa.

Really? Ok then. A lot of wasted Irish posting I saw then.

Back to my original point then. Against those considered likely to win this tournament, NZ has had one try scored against it by a side like to win. SA has two, and England haven’t played one.

So their defence is no worse than anyone else’s.

by **Afro** Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:12 pm

miaow wrote:Honestly, the man just makes things up as he goes along. He'll contradict himself within the same comment if you give him the chance. It's all to try and get one over the Poms on this messageboard...

No personal comments please

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:12 pm

This is one of the worst use of 'statistics' I think I've seen on this site tbh.

Utterly pointless.

by **LondonTiger** Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:14 pm

Tman, just a gentle suggestion, but maybe go back to bed? You seem to be imagining insults that simply are not there, and then making so many mistakes in your typing it is impossible to understand.

by maestegmafia Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:15 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Ireland had no genuine hopes of winning at all, you're only including them because they played New Zealand.

Agreed. The only three that had, and have, a realistic chance of winning the tournament are New Zealand, England and South Africa.

Really? Ok then. A lot of wasted Irish posting I saw then.

Back to my original point then. Against those considered likely to win this tournament, NZ has had one try scored against it by a side like to win. SA has two, and England haven’t played one.

So their defence is no worse than anyone else’s.

Great to see Wales chances written off completely. With both favourites coming from the NZ England Semi final as well as the also-rans who are guaranteed their shot in the final, if only as the whipping boys for the victor of Semifinal 1.

by Taylorman Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:16 pm

The point being made was NZ has no worse a defence than anyone else. Pretty obvious who the top five are.

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:17 pm

Taylorman wrote:Pretty obvious who the top five are.

New Zealand, South Africa, England...

...South Africa...

...aaaaaaaaand...errr...hmmm...

by Taylorman Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:21 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Tman, just a gentle suggestion, but maybe go back to bed? You seem to be imagining insults that simply are not there, and then making so many mistakes in your typing it is impossible to understand.

Na, I got the list of five wrong. Big deal.

You’re saying those five were not the top five going in? Even though the power rankings clearly had them as top five?

It’s now accepted that all along there were only three considered likely to win? Even though both Ireland and Wales held the no. 1 ranking going in?

My point was nobody has beaten a top five. We have beaten two.

If Oz is included, then it’s top six. Big deal.

Honestly, folks can’t accept the argument so they attack the typos.

Get a grip.

by Collapse2005 Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:22 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Ireland had no genuine hopes of winning at all, you're only including them because they played New Zealand.

Very easy to make such claims after the fact.

Aha, going into this you thought Oz were ahead of Ireland did you guns? Amazing how your story changes now isn’t it. Ireland were not top five going in?

Think you may have misinterpreted my comment. Ireland were of course contenders.

Didnt pan out that way but very easy to write them off as never having a hope now that they are out.

by Taylorman Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:23 pm

Well, who would know? Not according to some.

by maestegmafia Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:23 pm

World Rugby Rankings as they stand today..!

1 (1) NZL 92.47
2 (3) ENG 89.74
3 (2) WAL 89.37
4 (5) RSA 88.55
5 (4) IRE 84.45

by Taylorman Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:26 pm

Oh, funny that. Who’d have thought Wales or Ireland were contenders or top five according to that?

How are Oz not top five, oh...wait.

Geez. ..

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:29 pm

It's 05:29 in NZ... Shocked

On Curry, those stats posted are obviously helped that he's been playing the US and Tonga instead of Ireland and France etc., as in the 6Ns, but I do thinkthe fact he's stepped up and continued his progression looks key for England. There was always a worry of not quite keeping the progression going, falling off a bit like Itoje did after 2016, and although he's probably one had one big test so far this tournament - and NZ will be a real test of where both he and Underhill are - his continued progression has looked key for England. Likewise, who would have predicted Ludlam would do so well on such short notice?

It does feel the game is becoming more and more youth-centric, looking for young, hungry, relatively unbattered bodies to lay it on the line without the fear and knowledge of scarred experience. It's a surprising route both teams have taken, in different wys - England in the loose forwards apart from Wilson, and NZ in the back 3 apart from Ben Smith.

by Old Man Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:44 pm

miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Taylorman wrote:England...vs faves, no matches
You say Australia was a favourite, and we just played them. Wales met them in the pool.

An obvious mistake. Eng, NZ, SA, Wales, SA.

SA so good they're in there twice...

Well we need two chances, just in case Whistle

by Soul Requiem Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:45 pm

You've made up this top five nonsense and seem to think it makes sense. Ireland are ranked fifth and Australia are sixth, neither team had a realistic chance of winning hence my original comment.

by Taylorman Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:47 pm

...no you won’t. You get the easy peasy road. Wales are fortunate to be where they are. In this tournament you don’t get lucky twice. thumbsup

Besides, consensus here is Wales are just filling in the numbers...someone has to I guess.

by Soul Requiem Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:50 pm

maestegmafia wrote:World Rugby Rankings as they stand today..!

1 (1) NZL 92.47
2 (3) ENG 89.74
3 (2) WAL 89.37
4 (5) RSA 88.55
5 (4) IRE 84.45

Worth noting that Ireland are closer to Scotland in ninth than they are to England in second.

by Taylorman Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:50 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:You've made up this top five nonsense and seem to think it makes sense. Ireland are ranked fifth and Australia are sixth, neither team had a realistic chance of winning hence my original comment.

And you’re welcome to it. I don’t care if six are included but I’d say you’re off the general consensus to think Ireland ‘never had a realistic chance of winning it’.

What a waste of a few thousand Irish posts during the year then.

All good.

by Soul Requiem Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:53 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:You've made up this top five nonsense and seem to think it makes sense. Ireland are ranked fifth and Australia are sixth, neither team had a realistic chance of winning hence my original comment.

And you’re welcome to it. I don’t care if six are included but I’d say you’re off the general consensus to think Ireland ‘never had a realistic chance of winning it’.

What a waste of a few thousand Irish posts during the year then.

All good.

Wow again the Irish though the Irish would do well, who would have thought that?

The moment that Ireland were garbage in the six nations getting trounced by both Wales and England then backing that up with a shocker in the warm ups theyn had no real chance of winning, throw in losing to Japan.

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:58 pm

Why are we using rankings now - which are worth double, and where some teams, like Australia, have lost twice - to determine who was favoured and/or 'the best' pre-tournament?

So far, the RWC has gone almost exactly to form. Everyone expected NZ to be hot favourites with SA the dark horses - nothing suggests that's not still the case. England were the other solid favourites, and I think everyone gave Wales and outside shot if injuries and luck fell their way - they've not really had much of either, all told, considering the rest periods other teams have had, and the higher injury rate than most, although cashed in some 'moral victory change' from 2011 in the QF v France.

Ireland? Everyone was very much unsure about how they'd play. Very good last year, very poor in the 6Ns. Generally thought to be 'holding back' for the WC, but that thumping at Twickenham put things in perspective. England were now firmly a rung ahead of them as favourites. They were, at best, on par with Australia, who were similarly an 'unknown' in that they clearly had/have immense talent, had just beaten the ABs, before being stuffed by them in the return.

That seems to be the pre tournament consensus as I understood it. The Boks drawing with NZ meant they were just narrowly ahead of England to many peoples' minds, with Wales a sort-of distant 4th, and Ireland and Australia fighting it out for 5th due to volatile form.

by majesticimperialman Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:59 pm

Thinking about the game on saturday, about the battle between Sam cane, Ardie Savea, Tom Curry, and Sam Underhill. and who will come out on top? All four are top class.

Also between the 9s Ben Youngs and Aron Smith. both these two when on top of their game can keep the ball flowing.

It is going to one hell of a battle, don't you think?

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:02 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:It is going to one hell of a battle, don't you think?

Absolutely maj. As a neutral, I felt Australia cheated us out of a proper contest with their stupid tactics that seem more and more naive - or just stupid - as the time passes. Now I can't say I'm a complete neutral as I'd much rather England win this game for Wales' sake, but still, I think everyone hopes it'll be a fantastic game of rugby. Haven't really seen a good toe to toe, evenly matched game of high quality between the top sides since arguably Wales and the Wallabies a few weeks ago. The Japan games have been great - perhaps better in a way - but people want to see jeopardy amongst the best teams, and hopefully that's what we have. If NZ run away with it, it'll almost feel a bit like 2015 again - disappointing for the neutral to just watch the ABs clean up in the latter stages.

by Pie Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:02 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:You've made up this top five nonsense and seem to think it makes sense. Ireland are ranked fifth and Australia are sixth, neither team had a realistic chance of winning hence my original comment.

And you’re welcome to it. I don’t care if six are included but I’d say you’re off the general consensus to think Ireland ‘never had a realistic chance of winning it’.

What a waste of a few thousand Irish posts during the year then.

All good.

Fan with a keyboard laughing

by Taylorman Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:04 pm

In the same way the English think they’ll do well. Same with us. Don’t see why that’s an issue for you. It’s called being a fan. Or do you just like climbing all over them now they’re out?

Though in the end turns out the top three are about right, which were my original thoughts going in, Wales struggling both offensively and defensively already against sides not favoured.

Only thing about England is they haven’t been truly tested. Oz struggled to put any semblance of a game plan together and that could be England’s downfall.

They will hit a brick wall vs the ABs, particularly if the think last years AIs are anything like a comparison. This AB side is far more focussed, energised, prepared, uninjured , and ready.

In Chicago or Dublin, Ireland never met the side they met last weekend.

Why? Cos it’s the World Cup. A different beast.

by maestegmafia Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:05 pm

miaow wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:It is going to one hell of a battle, don't you think?

Absolutely maj. As a neutral, I felt Australia cheated us out of a proper contest with their stupid tactics that seem more and more naive - or just stupid - as the time passes. Now I can't say I'm a complete neutral as I'd much rather England win this game for Wales' sake, but still, I think everyone hopes it'll be a fantastic game of rugby. Haven't really seen a good toe to toe, evenly matched game of high quality between the top sides since arguably Wales and the Wallabies a few weeks ago. The Japan games have been great - perhaps better in a way - but people want to see jeopardy amongst the best teams, and hopefully that's what we have. If NZ run away with it, it'll almost feel a bit like 2015 again - disappointing for the neutral to just watch the ABs clean up in the latter stages.

As a neutral and with the prospect of facing the victor if Wales beat South Africa whoever we face will undoubtedly be the better of the two teams unless mitigating cards effect the outcome.

by Taylorman Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:07 pm

Don’t read pies posts anymore but what’s the bet it was a childish, personal comment.

by Old Man Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:08 pm

Throughout the first week of the RWC I read that Ireland did not fear SA, and that from a number of supporters, now I read they were never contenders?

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:12 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
miaow wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:It is going to one hell of a battle, don't you think?

Absolutely maj. As a neutral, I felt Australia cheated us out of a proper contest with their stupid tactics that seem more and more naive - or just stupid - as the time passes. Now I can't say I'm a complete neutral as I'd much rather England win this game for Wales' sake, but still, I think everyone hopes it'll be a fantastic game of rugby. Haven't really seen a good toe to toe, evenly matched game of high quality between the top sides since arguably Wales and the Wallabies a few weeks ago. The Japan games have been great - perhaps better in a way - but people want to see jeopardy amongst the best teams, and hopefully that's what we have. If NZ run away with it, it'll almost feel a bit like 2015 again - disappointing for the neutral to just watch the ABs clean up in the latter stages.

As a neutral and with the prospect of facing the victor if Wales beat South Africa whoever we face will undoubtedly be the better of the two teams unless mitigating cards effect the outcome.

For me, maes, I'd have England over NZ every time and twice on Sunday if it meant beating one resulted in winning the RWC. We beat England 6ish months ago - it's more like 60 years v NZ, sadly. Not the time to look ahead, but I'll be supporting England on Saturday, for sure.

by Pie Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:14 pm

Taylorman wrote:Don’t read pies posts anymore but what’s the bet it was a childish, personal comment.

Fan with a keyboard - you c clearly want to know Laugh

by Pie Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:17 pm

Talking of pressure, you can see it coming out in everyone. Taylorman even more desperate to be abrasive, Rattue spilling his guts, Eddie seeing red lights in apartment blocks nd assuming they are being spied on (this last one quite hilarious and disturbing at the same time since people do tend to video international sports teams they can see out of their windows Eddie. He looked paranoid in interview too....so for me if anyone is succumbing to pressure more than Taylorman its Eddie. They make a good pair. Hug

by Guest Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:17 pm

Pie wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Don’t read pies posts anymore but what’s the bet it was a childish, personal comment.

Fan with a keyboard - you c clearly want to know

It's me...

SF1 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v NEW ZEALAND - 26/10/19 - K/O 09:00 BST - Page 8 Giphy

by Pie Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:20 pm

miaow wrote:
Pie wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Don’t read pies posts anymore but what’s the bet it was a childish, personal comment.

Fan with a keyboard - you c clearly want to know

It's me...

Taylorcat you are such a big puddycat

by BigTrevsbigmac Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:25 pm

miaow wrote:Why are we using rankings now - which are worth double, and where some teams, like Australia, have lost twice - to determine who was favoured and/or 'the best' pre-tournament?

So far, the RWC has gone almost exactly to form. Everyone expected NZ to be hot favourites with SA the dark horses - nothing suggests that's not still the case. England were the other solid favourites, and I think everyone gave Wales and outside shot if injuries and luck fell their way - they've not really had much of either, all told, considering the rest periods other teams have had, and the higher injury rate than most, although cashed in some 'moral victory change' from 2011 in the QF v France.

Ireland? Everyone was very much unsure about how they'd play. Very good last year, very poor in the 6Ns. Generally thought to be 'holding back' for the WC, but that thumping at Twickenham put things in perspective. England were now firmly a rung ahead of them as favourites. They were, at best, on par with Australia, who were similarly an 'unknown' in that they clearly had/have immense talent, had just beaten the ABs, before being stuffed by them in the return.

That seems to be the pre tournament consensus as I understood it. The Boks drawing with NZ meant they were just narrowly ahead of England to many peoples' minds, with Wales a sort-of distant 4th, and Ireland and Australia fighting it out for 5th due to volatile form.

Really? Do you not think Wales have had some luck?
Even Biggar said ‘ we got lucky’ & everyone including Gats knows that France were by far the better side on the day.
Even the final ‘try’ was a 50/50 call re. The ball going forward & they got the benefit of the ref on field decision.
I would say that they have used up all the luck that should come a teams way so far.

by majesticimperialman Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:28 pm

Have either team been named yet?

by Pie Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:29 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Have either team been named yet?

Hang on I'll focus my long lens and let you know in a minute

1. Phil Vickery.......

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